Sun Blade ruling

[Spacehamster]

Description says that it’s a long sword hilt but also that you can use it with both short and long sword proficiency, does this mean it counts as both types of weapon?

As an example could a monk use it and still get martial arts and such since it counts as both a long and short sword?

[Sigreid]

That's the way it's been handled in every version of D&D (except maybe 4th, I wouldn't know about that).

[BarneyBent]

Strictest RAW, no, it's a longsword. But it makes sense to allow a monk to use one and doesn't break anything. I allow it.

[Man_Over_Game]

Description says that it’s a long sword hilt but also that you can use it with both short and long sword proficiency, does this mean it counts as both types of weapon?

As an example could a monk use it and still get martial arts and such since it counts as both a long and short sword?

Nope. Monk Weapon status is based on weapon type, not proficiency used, and the weapon is classified as a Long Sword.

[Luccan]

Nope. Monk Weapon status is based on weapon type, not proficiency used, and the weapon is classified as a Long Sword.

Which sucks, because every other class proficient with Short Swords is also proficient with Long Swords. So this ability to wield it if you have Short Sword proficiency could only benefit Monks and yet it doesn't.

[Christew]

Nope. Monk Weapon status is based on weapon type, not proficiency used, and the weapon is classified as a Long Sword.
This. It is kind of a weird entry though. I've always wondered why they felt the need to include both:
"If you are proficient with shortswords or longswords, you are proficient with the sun blade."
AND
"Proficiency with a longsword allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll for any attack you make with it."

[Spacehamster]

Thanks for the answers, it seems every time you are unclear about something in 5e it’s always the disappointing or underpowered way that is the ruling, in 3.5 and in pathfinder you can make strong characters and overpowered ones if you know the system, in 5e you can make 50 shades of “meh” characters. 🤪

And don’t get me wrong I actually like 5e, it’s simple enough for my less interested friends to be able to have decent character without doing any research.

[Man_Over_Game]

This. It is kind of a weird entry though. I've always wondered why they felt the need to include both:
"If you are proficient with shortswords or longswords, you are proficient with the sun blade."
AND
"Proficiency with a longsword allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll for any attack you make with it."

A few theories:

A throwback to a previous edition's rule.
They thought that the Long Sword was an "upgrade" to the Short Sword, and wanted to include both in case you invested into the Weapon Master feat, for some ungoldy reason.
They wanted it to reference the fact that it's lighter, as it has Finesse (like a Short Sword).
They wanted it to be accessible for Rogues, but forgot that Rogues can already use Long Swords (for no reason).

[RSP]

Thanks for the answers, it seems every time you are unclear about something in 5e it’s always the disappointing or underpowered way that is the ruling, in 3.5 and in pathfinder you can make strong characters and overpowered ones if you know the system, in 5e you can make 50 shades of “meh” characters. 🤪

And don’t get me wrong I actually like 5e, it’s simple enough for my less interested friends to be able to have decent character without doing any research.

Well the ruling is up to your DM. RAW the answer is “it doesn’t count as a Monk Weapon” but that doesn’t mean DMs can’t find good reason to allow it to.

[Misterwhisper]

A few theories:

A throwback to a previous edition's rule.
They thought that the Long Sword was an "upgrade" to the Short Sword, and wanted to include both in case you invested into the Weapon Master feat, for some ungoldy reason.
They wanted it to reference the fact that it's lighter, as it has Finesse (like a Short Sword).
They wanted it to be accessible for Rogues, but forgot that Rogues can already use Long Swords (for no reason).


Actually to sum it up:

When the game was being designed the group working on classes and the ones working on feats and items didn’t communicate as much as they should have.

They didn’t have to care about balance withe feats because they were too lazy to fine tune them so just made them optional.

Items were close to the same but they went with that they are not really for sale anywhere, despite being pretty common on monster drops, I guess people just have magic items laying around and can’t figure out how commerce works.

[Throne12]

There is the UA monk weapon thing where you can use any weapon your prof with as monk weapon as long as it dont have heavy or special traits.

[JackPhoenix]

Which sucks, because every other class proficient with Short Swords is also proficient with Long Swords. So this ability to wield it if you have Short Sword proficiency could only benefit Monks and yet it doesn't.

Drow are proficient with shortswords but not longswords, but it's not like they would be using a Sun Blade in the first place. Bladesingers get proficiency with one martial weapon (though high and wood elves already are proficient with both short- and longswords). Hobgoblins have proficiency with two martial weapons, and no preference towards either Str or Dex. Monks, while losing the benefits of Martial Arts, can still use Sun Blade with their action, and use their BA for other stuff. Weapon Master is a thing.

[Luccan]

Drow are proficient with shortswords but not longswords, but it's not like they would be using a Sun Blade in the first place. Bladesingers get proficiency with one martial weapon (though high and wood elves already are proficient with both short- and longswords). Hobgoblins have proficiency with two martial weapons, and no preference towards either Str or Dex. Monks, while losing the benefits of Martial Arts, can still use Sun Blade with their action, and use their BA for other stuff. Weapon Master is a thing.

Fair enough. Although that requires some specific builds to actually benefit from (and several of those options weren't available when the weapon was written up). It's enough specificity where Monk is still the most obvious beneficiery of that unique feature, yet they get some of their class abilities messed with anyway. I'm also not convinced it's usually better than the option to get your bonus attack (and past a certain level certainly isn't superior to using your Martial Arts die).

[JackPhoenix]

Fair enough. Although that requires some specific builds to actually benefit from (and several of those options weren't available when the weapon was written up). It's enough specificity where Monk is still the most obvious beneficiery of that unique feature, yet they get some of their class abilities messed with anyway. I'm also not convinced it's usually better than the option to get your bonus attack (and past a certain level certainly isn't superior to using your Martial Arts die).

Monk can still use their BA to dodge/disengage/dash. And 1d10+1d8+2+Dex (x2) stays relevant for quite a while... actually, it's better than what you'd get from just Martial Arts for your entire career (assuming maximum Dex, it's 34 vs 31.5 at level 20 if everything hits), though Flurry of Blows gets ahead quickly (with Dex 20, at level 5 (if you somehow get Dex 20 by then) or 8 more likely, with Dex 18 at level 11, with Dex 16 at level 16. Assuming the Sun Blade monk doesn't use his Str-based FoB and the MA monk doesn't use two-handed spear or quarterstaff)

[Luccan]

Monk can still use their BA to dodge/disengage/dash. And 1d10+1d8+2+Dex (x2) stays relevant for quite a while... actually, it's better than what you'd get from just Martial Arts for your entire career (assuming maximum Dex, it's 34 vs 31.5 at level 20 if everything hits), though Flurry of Blows gets ahead quickly (with Dex 20, at level 5 (if you somehow get Dex 20 by then) or 8 more likely, with Dex 18 at level 11, with Dex 16 at level 16. Assuming the Sun Blade monk doesn't use his Str-based FoB and the MA monk doesn't use two-handed spear or quarterstaff)

But it's only better if you're fighting undead, unless I'm misunderstanding where your +1d8 is coming from. Otherwise it's just a +2 1d10 weapon. Which definitely isn't nothing, especially at lower levels, it's just not really ideal.

[JackPhoenix]

But it's only better if you're fighting undead, unless I'm misunderstanding where your +1d8 is coming from. Otherwise it's just a +2 1d10 weapon. Which definitely isn't nothing, especially at lower levels, it's just not really ideal.

Derp, yeah, mistake on my part, I thought the 1d8 radiant damage applies to everyone. Could've spared myself the math.

[Man_Over_Game]

Actually to sum it up:

When the game was being designed the group working on classes and the ones working on feats and items didn’t communicate as much as they should have.

They didn’t have to care about balance withe feats because they were too lazy to fine tune them so just made them optional.

Items were close to the same but they went with that they are not really for sale anywhere, despite being pretty common on monster drops, I guess people just have magic items laying around and can’t figure out how commerce works.

I actually believe that. There are a lot of weird decisions when it comes to items and feats that I can't help wonder about, and what you said covers about all of it. Not that I don't believe you, but is there a source? I'd like to learn more.

[Dork_Forge]

But it's only better if you're fighting undead, unless I'm misunderstanding where your +1d8 is coming from. Otherwise it's just a +2 1d10 weapon. Which definitely isn't nothing, especially at lower levels, it's just not really ideal.

It's a pretty great item for a Kensei though, who would be unhindered by it being a longsword.

[Spacehamster]

It's a pretty great item for a Kensei though, who would be unhindered by it being a longsword.

Yeah been thinking of making a 2 fighter 8 kensai with dueling or mariner fighting style some time.

[Dork_Forge]

Yeah been thinking of making a 2 fighter 8 kensai with dueling or mariner fighting style some time.

Kensei is probably my favourite Monk subclass and it pairs really well with Fighter (it's not as dependent on Ki as other Subclasses). A Fighter 4 (Dueling Battle Master) Monk X would be pretty sweet.

[Spacehamster]

Kensei is probably my favourite Monk subclass and it pairs really well with Fighter (it's not as dependent on Ki as other Subclasses). A Fighter 4 (Dueling Battle Master) Monk X would be pretty sweet.

Planning for 20 levels, 12 Kensei, 4 echo knight(dueling), 4 gloom stalker(mariner fighting style), first round 4 attacks attack action if using echo knight resource, 4 more action surge + 2 bonus action attacks from flurry. :D

[Lupine]

Description says that it’s a long sword hilt but also that you can use it with both short and long sword proficiency, does this mean it counts as both types of weapon?

As an example could a monk use it and still get martial arts and such since it counts as both a long and short sword?

My reading of it is that it is a hilt, which extends out a beam of light to form the blade (basically a lightsaber). I can see it being set in the length, but I could also sense it changing length based on who is using it.
As another person said, it is a longsword but made of radiant light, by RAW. With that in place, make it an attunement item, to change the length.

Monks can’t use most attuning items anyway.

[Chronos]

They can't? Monks can't use armor or many weapons, but most armor and weapons don't require attunement. A lot of items that require attunement require a spellcaster, but most monks are spellcasters (actually, all of them, eventually), so that's OK. Any other sort of item, I don't see why they'd be any less able to attune than anyone else.

[Scarytincan]

Derp, yeah, mistake on my part, I thought the 1d8 radiant damage applies to everyone. Could've spared myself the math.

I may be misinterpreting you, but all damage the weapon does is radiant, there's no physical damage.

One of the biggest perks of a sunblade imo (besides all radiant damage) is the light is sunlight. Hello sunlight sensitivity, hypersensitivity, vampires, and a source of light that dispels darkness spells...

I like kensei with one level war cleric for this weapon, as far as monks go.

[Scarytincan]

A lot of items that require attunement require a spellcaster, but most monks are spellcasters (actually, all of them, eventually), so that's OK.

I'd never considered Astral protection might open them up to things in that way before. Do you have some specific examples of items that opens to them?

Edit : the only things I can find are wands and items that restore spell slots, missing anything?

[JackPhoenix]

I may be misinterpreting you, but all damage the weapon does is radiant, there's no physical damage.

It does extra +1d8 radiant damage to undead only, in addition to the 1d8/1d10 (no point in not using it in both hands as a monk) damage (radiant instead of slashing, but that's mostly irrelevant) a longsword normally does. I've misread the 1d8 extra damage as working against everything in my calculations.

[Satori01]

"Proficiency with a longsword allows you to add your proficiency bonus to the attack roll for any attack you make with it."

This part is *not* in the DMG. I don't use D&D Beyond, but could this be a rider added by the website.....just checked...it is.
Corporal Redundancy reporting for Duty, Sir!

If a DM wants to change the hilt and weapon type to a shortsword that acts just like a longsword, it will not break the game.

It is a wonderful weapon for a Str based Rogue...
Sprinkle in some Tavern Brawler and Grapple Feats and fun can be had.

Attack with pencil or inactivated Sun Blade hit+ grapple. Next round, activate blade and get auto advantage.

[Dork_Forge]

This part is *not* in the DMG. I don't use D&D Beyond, but could this be a rider added by the website.....just checked...it is.
Corporal Redundancy reporting for Duty, Sir!

If a DM wants to change the hilt and weapon type to a shortsword that acts just like a longsword, it will not break the game.

It is a wonderful weapon for a Str based Rogue...
Sprinkle in some Tavern Brawler and Grapple Feats and fun can be had.

Attack with pencil or inactivated Sun Blade hit+ grapple. Next round, activate blade and get auto advantage.

It's a pretty good weapon for a normal Dex Rogue too, a +2 weapon that lets you do Radiant damage is always going to be pretty sweet.

[Spacehamster]

It's a pretty good weapon for a normal Dex Rogue too, a +2 weapon that lets you do Radiant damage is always going to be pretty sweet.

Does sneak attack do the same type of damage as the weapon, it does not specify type of damage what I can see?

[Dork_Forge]

Does sneak attack do the same type of damage as the weapon, it does not specify type of damage what I can see?

Yeah, Sneak keys off the primary damage type of the weapon that triggered it, in this case a whole bunch of radiant damage.

[Chronos]

Heck, just the fact that it's a magic finesse weapon is going to make rogues pretty happy. My first D&D group had two finesse characters, and it was a good while before we had magic weapons for both of them (and yes, one of them was a Sunblade). The fact that it's even a pretty good weapon, as magic weapons go, is gravy.

[Cikomyr2]

Let kids have fun guddamnit.

Ask the Monk if he wants to use Chi Point while welding the Sunblade to get Sun Soul features because why not? It would be cool as ****

[GoodmanDL]

For a Rogue, the one main downside is that the sun blade is a light source - so not ideal for heavy stealthing. It's otherwise quite good - converting your damage to radiant is very strong.