5e Telekinetic Sorcerer

[Nagog]

So my friend and I are putting together a Homebrew Sorcerer bloodline surrounding Telekinesis. We're giving them a bloodline spell list that includes the spell by the same name, but we've also got a few class abilities we'd love to hear back on, specifically on powerscaling and where they could best be applied. Also as a note, Mage Hand is expected in this subclass in a similar way that Eldritch Blast is expected with Warlocks; and the cantrip is given at later levels if they don't already have it (if they do, they'd probably just get a different one for free).

Telekinetic Shield: At the cost of 2 Sorcery Points, you can add your Charisma Modifier to your AC for 4 hours

Aura of Force: You may cast Levitate without concentration a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier. Once these uses are spent, you may use this ability again at the cost of 4 Sorcery Points. You may use your Mage Hand to move the targets of these castings as though they had no weight.

Multi-Tasking Effects: You may now cast and maintain two separate Mage Hands independent of one another. They each have their own 30 feet of movement and you may command them both with a bonus action.

The idea of this subclass is to give the Sorcerer some modicum of mid-line control capacity, and encourage players to think outside the box. Combining Levitate and Mage Hand with Aura of Force could give your Sorcerer a flight speed, at the cost of using their action to move the Mage Hand (and themselves as the target of Levitate).

[sandmote]

Why does levitate require you to use mage hand at all?

[Nagog]

Why does levitate require you to use mage hand at all?

Levitate allows you caster to control vertical movement, but lateral movement is left to whatever objects you can push yourself off of. Mage hand can essentially push you laterally wherever you need to go.

[sandmote]

I have some specific notes, but I think the concept needs some polish. As far as I can tell, you've got there concepts:


Sturdy enough to go mid-line
Control spells
Knockoff of the Telekinesis spell.


I usually count "mid-line" as "covers melee when the front liners can't," and make a separate category of "flanker," to describe rogue-likes that sneak past the front line to hit and then slink back behind the front liner. Maybe make the sorcerer more of a flanker than a mid-line, using telekinetic abilities to inflict forced movement on themselves? This could give you improved ability to maintain your control spells by staying out of enemy reach, instead of giving you features that mostly apply when you're already risking/making concentration checks.




Telekinetic Shield: At the cost of 2 Sorcery Points, you can add your Charisma Modifier to your AC for 4 hours This should probably specify 10+Dex+Cha, rather than a flat +Cha. Otherwise the duration is odd, and should probably be moved to one of the standard options (1 hour or 8).


Aura of Force: You may cast Levitate without concentration a number of times per day equal to your Charisma modifier. Once these uses are spent, you may use this ability again at the cost of 4 Sorcery Points. You may use your Mage Hand to move the targets of these castings as though they had no weight. I'd maybe just make it cost sorcery point to use this. Like the Shadow Magic Sorcerer's Eyes of the Dark. Easier to track, at the least. Also, just add horizontal movement to the spell as a subclass feature, instead of adding on another spell entirely?


Multi-Tasking Effects: You may now cast and maintain two separate Mage Hands independent of one another. They each have their own 30 feet of movement and you may command them both with a bonus action. I think you'll see a lot of crossover with arcane tricksters for the synergy with Mage Hand Legerdemain. Steal two items at once, basically.


The idea of this subclass is to give the Sorcerer some modicum of mid-line control capacity, and encourage players to think outside the box. Combining Levitate and Mage Hand with Aura of Force could give your Sorcerer a flight speed, at the cost of using their action to move the Mage Hand (and themselves as the target of Levitate). I don't recognize "Aura of Force." Otherwise if you've giving the sorcerer more control spells I guess these as fluff features makes sense. Not sure this would work as a mid-line build though. If you're going for something mid-line you typically want non-concentration spells, and control spells tend to require concentration.

The "flight" feature sounds like the 'Reduce on a Gnome' trick, and I suspect the novelty of the mechanic would wear off pretty quick. You;d basically 'fly' creatures against their will, presumably off cliff-sides.

[Nagog]

I have some specific notes, but I think the concept needs some polish. As far as I can tell, you've got there concepts:


Sturdy enough to go mid-line
Control spells
Knockoff of the Telekinesis spell.



I think you have the basic idea, though its less of a concept (beyond telekinetics) and more of a playstyle: a combative controller exerting their will over the area around them.

Although because I feel "Knock-off Telekinesis" is a bit degrading of the feature, I will say that the differences are intentional. Telekinesis is a 5th level spell, meaning it's inaccessible until level 9, which is at the tail end of the area in which most campaigns are played. Giving that ability to a lower level Sorcerer could be gamebreaking, but locking the main features of your subclass behind a level gate that far in the game actively detracts from the subclass ever being used. Furthermore, Telekinesis cast in this manner does not require concentration, so while you can have multiple targets controlled at any given time, manipulating them is going to require most of your action economy (Action for vertical movement, Bonus Action for lateral movement) and will also take some time to set up (casting Levitate costs an action, as does Mage Hand, though Mage Hand can be readied long before combat actually gets moving). This method is also less powerful due to other restrictions: Fall Damage is negated by the ending of Levitate, and movement is much more restricted when relying on the various movement speeds of the various controls. Those are the major differences off the top of my head, but there's also the targeted saves (Str or Con, both of which are common at higher levels) and weight restrictions (500lbs or 1k lbs) to consider, though imo they're fairly arbitrary.



I usually count "mid-line" as "covers melee when the front liners can't," and make a separate category of "flanker," to describe rogue-likes that sneak past the front line to hit and then slink back behind the front liner. Maybe make the sorcerer more of a flanker than a mid-line, using telekinetic abilities to inflict forced movement on themselves? This could give you improved ability to maintain your control spells by staying out of enemy reach, instead of giving you features that mostly apply when you're already risking/making concentration checks.


I've always imagined Mid-Liners to be characters like melee Rogues, Monks, many Artificers, etc: They can handle taking some heat and skirmishing, but they definitely don't have the tankiness to continually take hits. I guess the best analogy to what role this would give them is similar to Bladesinger: You have the AC to get into and out of melee range of enemies without it absolutely ending you, but you definitely don't have the HP to stay there.



This should probably specify 10+Dex+Cha, rather than a flat +Cha. Otherwise the duration is odd, and should probably be moved to one of the standard options (1 hour or 8).


That's a very good point, I'll make that revision. We don't want any of the shenanigans like Unarmored Defense Bladesingers running around. Though I have considered giving them less modifiers in the equation, like Giant Soul and Draconic Sorcerers. Something like 13+ your Charisma Modifier would do. While 18 AC is great (comparable to Plate armor), the d6 hit dice means you really can't afford to get hit. A high Constitution and the Tough feat will help, but you only have so many ASIs to invest, and other feats may be much more actively useful to a spellcaster.



I'd maybe just make it cost sorcery point to use this. Like the Shadow Magic Sorcerer's Eyes of the Dark. Easier to track, at the least. Also, just add horizontal movement to the spell as a subclass feature, instead of adding on another spell entirely?


I'm hesitant to make it entirely based on Sorcery Points, mostly due to how restricted that resource already is and how expensive many Metamagics already are. This point is based in my belief that the Sorcerer needs a little more oomph to flesh out it's identity rather than being an underpowered Wizard variant, which is a controversial topic as is.



I think you'll see a lot of crossover with arcane tricksters for the synergy with Mage Hand Legerdemain. Steal two items at once, basically.


Yes, thats something I think would be a fun multiclass, similar to the synergy between Treachery Paladin and Swashbuckler Rogue or Talisman Warlock and Bard for skills.
Also, if i'm not mistaken the Arcane Trickster can already steal 2 things at once, one with the Mage Hand and another with their physical hand. Bumping that up to 3, with separate checks for each, would be rarely if ever used to it's fullest extent and in most situations wouldn't be too powerful.



I don't recognize "Aura of Force." Otherwise if you've giving the sorcerer more control spells I guess these as fluff features makes sense. Not sure this would work as a mid-line build though. If you're going for something mid-line you typically want non-concentration spells, and control spells tend to require concentration.


Aura of Force is one of the other proposed class features, so no worries about not recognizing it.



The "flight" feature sounds like the 'Reduce on a Gnome' trick, and I suspect the novelty of the mechanic would wear off pretty quick. You;d basically 'fly' creatures against their will, presumably off cliff-sides.

Ngl, that's where a good portion of the inspiration came from, but the application you mention is a tad flawed: When Levitate ends, the target floats gently to the ground. Otherwise it would be a really broken spell in any case, as you control the target's vertical movement and can just float them 60 feet up (or 120 with Distant Spell) and drop them for tons of fall damage.

[sandmote]

Although because I feel "Knock-off Telekinesis" is a bit degrading of the feature, I will say that the differences are intentional. Telekinesis is a 5th level spell, meaning it's inaccessible until level 9, which is at the tail end of the area in which most campaigns are played. Giving that ability to a lower level Sorcerer could be gamebreaking, but locking the main features of your subclass behind a level gate that far in the game actively detracts from the subclass ever being used. I suppose my question here is why you can't say "you cast telekinesis but with more severe limits," to keep the rules as clear and simple as possible. Off the top of my head:

30 foot range
Only move medium or smaller creatures/250 k of object
can only move them 10 feet per round


Then you can buff this at 6th level and take off the concentration requirement at 14th.


I've always imagined Mid-Liners to be characters like melee Rogues, Monks, many Artificers, etc: They can handle taking some heat and skirmishing, but they definitely don't have the tankiness to continually take hits. I guess the best analogy to what role this would give them is similar to Bladesinger: You have the AC to get into and out of melee range of enemies without it absolutely ending you, but you definitely don't have the HP to stay there. I usually find this insufficient to tell me when a character is actually taking hits in the first place.

Someone going to have to pull emergency front line duty whenhe frontliner can't handle their job (either because they'd need to be in multiple places at once or because they've been worn down too much).
Someone with melee (or very short range) based debuffs or high damage output without the sturdiness of the front liner.

I find these two types of builds play fundamentally differently, and to need different support.

The clearest IRL analogy I've been able to find is the Zulu "buffalo horns" formation (not that it was unique; the breakdown of the formation is just the most usable I've found as an analogy). The d&d equivalents to the horns and loins of that formation would both count as "midline" by your definition. So when I talk about "flankers" (which I equate specifically with the horns) I'm asking how you plan for this subclass to act in relation to the front line. Are they always there and avoiding being targeted in the first place, or do they only risk the front line to deal with a particular problem?

Again, I find these two types of builds play fundamentally differently, and to need different support.


I'm hesitant to make it entirely based on Sorcery Points, mostly due to how restricted that resource already is and how expensive many Metamagics already are. This point is based in my belief that the Sorcerer needs a little more oomph to flesh out it's identity rather than being an underpowered Wizard variant, which is a controversial topic as is. My complaint is specifically that it works off of both the PC's Cha mod and their sorcery points. I consider sorcery points the better simplification, but the issue is having the feature apply to both at once. Especially the bizarre "N points to restore Cha castings" conversion.


Ngl, that's where a good portion of the inspiration came from, but the application you mention is a tad flawed: When Levitate ends, the target floats gently to the ground. Otherwise it would be a really broken spell in any case, as you control the target's vertical movement and can just float them 60 feet up (or 120 with Distant Spell) and drop them for tons of fall damage. I mean, for a control sorcerer I think any fall damage is a bit incidental. More relevant is that any allies will likely be dead before the target would be able to get back up to the party, without needing concentration or more actions to keep them away.

[Nagog]

I suppose my question here is why you can't say "you cast telekinesis but with more severe limits," to keep the rules as clear and simple as possible. Off the top of my head:

30 foot range
Only move medium or smaller creatures/250 k of object
can only move them 10 feet per round


Then you can buff this at 6th level and take off the concentration requirement at 14th.


The only qualm I have with this is I'm hesitant to use a spell as baseline and nerf it, as there are plenty of ways (particularly with Sorcerers) to augment spells, and there may be some I'm not currently aware of or may later come into being that negate those nerfs, or work around them. Having the adjustments be as delicate as possible (Dropping Concentration, able to be manipulated with Mage Hands) keeps things simple enough that the core 5e rules are more often than not the bottom line reference, while keeping enough identity to have the subclass maintain it's viability.

Also the concentration requirement coming off early is important, as otherwise the double Mage Hand won't really be worth setting up (2 actions to cast twice, not including the actions to cast Levitate twice).



I usually find this insufficient to tell me when a character is actually taking hits in the first place.

Someone going to have to pull emergency front line duty whenhe frontliner can't handle their job (either because they'd need to be in multiple places at once or because they've been worn down too much).
Someone with melee (or very short range) based debuffs or high damage output without the sturdiness of the front liner.

I find these two types of builds play fundamentally differently, and to need different support.

The clearest IRL analogy I've been able to find is the Zulu "buffalo horns" formation (not that it was unique; the breakdown of the formation is just the most usable I've found as an analogy). The d&d equivalents to the horns and loins of that formation would both count as "midline" by your definition. So when I talk about "flankers" (which I equate specifically with the horns) I'm asking how you plan for this subclass to act in relation to the front line. Are they always there and avoiding being targeted in the first place, or do they only risk the front line to deal with a particular problem?

Again, I find these two types of builds play fundamentally differently, and to need different support.


I'm not familiar with that reference, but I think I understand where the communication breakdown is taking place: The AC bonus is intended to allow this subclass to act as a sort of skirmisher; capable of dashing in and getting off a melee hit or two (presumably using things like Shadow Blade, Shocking Grasp, Vampiric Touch, etc.) without worrying that they will almost certainly die doing so.



My complaint is specifically that it works off of both the PC's Cha mod and their sorcery points. I consider sorcery points the better simplification, but the issue is having the feature apply to both at once. Especially the bizarre "N points to restore Cha castings" conversion.


My reasoning is mostly due to low level viability. At pretty much all levels, Sorcery Ppints are precious commodities, but even moreso at low levels. Allowing it to be cast with 2 sorcery points per casting would mean that at level 6 (when this feature is likely to come into the class), you can use it 3 times, and then you can do no more metamagic or anything else requiring points until your next Long Rest. Meanwhile at level 20, you could have 10 active at once (though at that point after casting the last one, the first one's duration would end), so even costing 2 Sorcery Points isn't costly enough to avoid breaking the game at higher levels.

Compare this to the Monk's Ki points (which refresh on a short rest mind you), most Ki abilities only cost 1 ki to use, with a few subclasses providing more costly/powerful abilities. In power scaling, it's assumed Flurry of Blows is used on almost every round of combat, and once attained, Stunning Strike is expected to be used at least once per combat. Between encounters, monks may short rest to regain all of their Ki. Sorcerers on the other hand have far costlier applications of their points, meaning they only rarely can use more than two or three Metamagic options until tier 3 or higher, and once those are used, they don't have any more for any other encounters that day may hold.

Granting them a few free uses each day allows them to budget their points better. It means that they can still get their unique sorcerer and subclass feel each and every encounter, and with each use having duration, each turn of their encounter. It also eliminated the need to choose between whether you're going to use a subclass ability or your metamagic that day.

(If it helps, I believe the Clockwork Soul Sorcerer UA had a trance-like ability that had uses given similarly, and I know some other classes have abilities scale like this using spell slots instead of Points)

[sandmote]

I'm not familiar with that reference, but I think I understand where the communication breakdown is taking place: The AC bonus is intended to allow this subclass to act as a sort of skirmisher; capable of dashing in and getting off a melee hit or two (presumably using things like Shadow Blade, Shocking Grasp, Vampiric Touch, etc.) without worrying that they will almost certainly die doing so. Okay, that is more helpful. It may be more useful to give such a character a knockoff of the Storm Sorcerer's Tempestuous Magic (fluffed as you telekinetically moving yourself) rather than a boost to AC. Maybe with more flexibility, rather than the "when you cast a spell of 1st level or higher," requirement. AC only matters when you're being targeted, and this sounds like you should be focusing on abilities that prevent you from being targeted more than ones that apply once you're already in danger.


My reasoning is mostly due to low level viability. At pretty much all levels, Sorcery Ppints are precious commodities, but even moreso at low levels. Allowing it to be cast with 2 sorcery points per casting would mean that at level 6 (when this feature is likely to come into the class), you can use it 3 times, and then you can do no more metamagic or anything else requiring points until your next Long Rest. Meanwhile at level 20, you could have 10 active at once (though at that point after casting the last one, the first one's duration would end), so even costing 2 Sorcery Points isn't costly enough to avoid breaking the game at higher levels. Then maybe grant Cha mod uses, and then make them refresh on a short rest starting at 6th level? This would stop the feature from draining sorcery points entirely, rather than after the first few combats.

[Nagog]

Okay, that is more helpful. It may be more useful to give such a character a knockoff of the Storm Sorcerer's Tempestuous Magic (fluffed as you telekinetically moving yourself) rather than a boost to AC. Maybe with more flexibility, rather than the "when you cast a spell of 1st level or higher," requirement. AC only matters when you're being targeted, and this sounds like you should be focusing on abilities that prevent you from being targeted more than ones that apply once you're already in danger.


I'm not so sure on the Bonus Action use, though I like what you're getting at. Perhaps a reaction ability to add your Proficiency to AC when targeted by an attack, and if it causes the attack to miss, you can move yourself a certain distance away, like propelling yourself out of danger?



Then maybe grant Cha mod uses, and then make them refresh on a short rest starting at 6th level? This would stop the feature from draining sorcery points entirely, rather than after the first few combats.
That's a great idea! Work it like Bardic Inspiration. I'll implement that!