Oath of ancients. Multiclass vs capstone and general build advice

[Willowhelm]

Posting from mobile so please forgive lack of formatting or any autocorrect issues.

I’m looking at options for an OoA paladin build. This would be a backup character in a high level campaign and conceptually I’m imagining that they are the many-generations-ago patriarch of the family of my current character. Literally from another age, mostly avoiding civilisation and bound by his oaths.

If something happens to my current character then the old (immortal and ageless) boy comes out to put things straight. The matriarch is an archdruid so also still around but that is a build for another day...

Because of the above I would like to go 15 levels in OoA to get Undying Sentinel. Other than that I have been flip-flopping around all sorts of other options so I’d like some advice. I’ve mainly played casters rounded out with a dip (eg hexblade on a lore bard, cleric on an abjuration wizard) so I don’t have much experience on how a front line melee character really plays (although I am trying out LudicSavant’s arcana cleric at the moment)

Is the capstone worth going straight 20?
If play will be starting at 15, is there any benefit to multiclassing in those last 5 levels? Does the benefit of being SAD with hexblade or picking up shield outweigh the benefit of the capstone? Does the ac difference between armor types really make a difference once you’ve maxed out the stats (eg 19 vs 20)

I’ve run through options for dex vs str, lances on flying steeds, PAM/HAM/sentinel etc etc but I just don’t know how to weigh up the finer details of those choices. Are there “classic” builds that particularly play to OoA strengths? My reading generally throws up huge nova vengeance paladin builds or how to maximise your conquest aura etc.

I would probably be able to start off with a handful of magic items so I’ve also considered dumping str and picking up a belt of giant strength but I’d like to imagine that the build would actually be playable from 1-20 and not just fudge the stats in this way.

The current campaign is at level 12. Started with phandalin, dragon heist, parts of mad mage, parts of rise of Tiamat (currently). 6-12 has taken around a year but I don’t know if the pace will change at higher levels. I wouldn’t be surprised if we end up back in mad mage and running to lvl 20. As feat starved as a paladin can be... I’ve been considering picking up mage slayer to really make this an anti-caster build.

I’d also like to hear opinions on whether there’s a good way to pick up one of the SCAG cantrips without dipping. I have visions of using the OoA capstone to cast BB as a bonus action and then following up with a full set of attacks (but then again... you can do that with sorcerer meta magic too...)

The options are really quite wide open! How would you build the old man?

Constraints:
A race that could at least be mistaken for human. Variant human allowed.
15 levels OoA (Unless you have another immortality option that is “natural” - no soul transferring to clones or lichdom thanks)
If it is AL legal all the better but really any combination from any (5e) source books.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Paladin 19/ Hexblade 1 is preeeetty good. Variant Human can have 20 Cha and Con along with PAM and GWM. Half-Elf can have Cha 20, Con 18, PAM, GWM, and Elven Accuracy. In either case use Ensnaring Strike to get advantage for GWM, unless you have someone casting Faerie Fire or similar.

[DevilMcam]

If you want to use elven accuracy,gwm or pam you need hexblade 3 and pact of the blade.
So you are loosing on the paladin 30ft aura
I wouldn't worry about the level 20 capstone though, it's strong but nothing crazy on the oath of the ancients.

[diplomancer]

I'd go to level 20 Ancients. Variant Half-Elf with the High Elf cantrip from SCAG, booming blade. Don't dump strength, but leave it at 16 AND get the belt of giant strength (alternatively, dump str, have 16 dex, and get the belt- character would be viable from the beginning, you will have good initiative and decent ranged attacks). Max Cha, feats are Warcaster, Mounted Combatant*, and either PAM (I think Ancients Paladin is the one class where the staff and shield aesthetic works) or GWM (which will give you an easier time finding appropriate magic weapons, and be more useful at level 20)

Once you reach level 20, at your big fight of the day, you can activate your aura, cast Command as a Bonus action, say FLEE, and have the Warcaster proc booming blade. Other rounds you just attack, cast command, use booming blade when they flee. As this is supposed to be a very old character, ask your DM if he can know a lot of languages, so that you have an even better chance of being able to use command.

* mounted combatant is SO useful for a Paladin, and not necessarily for the advantage. Truth is, you need your mount to easily get to the baddies, even more so at high levels. And so you want them to survive. It's not easy to keep them alive without Mounted Combatant.

[micahaphone]

Normally I'd tell people to not think about level 20, focus on what build is more fun to play at the time. But if you're starting at 15, that's less relevant.

Has the DM confirmed that you'll spend time at level 20? Do you know what the other party members will be, and/or if they're optimizers?

Personally, I think a single-classed paladin is plenty strong and a good character. sorc/bard/lock dips just push it from strong into dominating territory.

Your capstone is:

10 hp regen/turn
Free Quicken metamagic on your spells
Nearby enemies have Heighten metamagic on your spells.



Are you really gonna focus on casting Destructive Wave? Do you think you'd have more fun with some other things from dips?

Admittedly, the high level paladin feature I'm most jazzed about is the level 18 Aura radius improvement. So I wouldn't personally dip more than 2 levels, but that cuts you out of sorc/bard dipping, pretty much just hexblade for agonizing blast and 2 castings of Shield. Or fighter for Action Surge, if you wanted. 4 Smites in 1 turn!

[Nidgit]

I'd go for the Ancients capstone at that point. The alternatives are going Hexblade 2 for SADness, Shield, and Invocations, or Fighter 2 for an extra fighting style and Action Surge. Personally, I think the incredibly good capstone of the Ancients Paladin is better.

Finding a way to grab Booming Blade is particularly excellent as an Ancients Paladin too. diplomancer mentioned using Command as a bonus action to guarantee a Booming Blade reaction and rider. That's pretty good, but it eats up both your bonus action and reaction. I'd cut out the middle step and just use Booming Blade as a bonus action- you lose out on 4d8 guaranteed damage in exchange for a possible 8-12d8, depending on your DM, an extra chance to Smite, and a saved spell slot in the process. Cast Holy Weapon as a bonus action buff when you activate your capstone and you're in business for approximately a metric ton of damage (about 100 per turn before Smiting or reactions).

If you do go pure Ancients Paladin, I'd probably stay away from PAM since you'll have other excellent uses for your bonus action. GWM, Mounted Combatant, Sentinel, and Warcaster are all great picks for a feat though.

[diplomancer]

I'd go for the Ancients capstone at that point. The alternatives are going Hexblade 2 for SADness, Shield, and Invocations, or Fighter 2 for an extra fighting style and Action Surge. Personally, I think the incredibly good capstone of the Ancients Paladin is better.

Finding a way to grab Booming Blade is particularly excellent as an Ancients Paladin too. diplomancer mentioned using Command as a bonus action to guarantee a Booming Blade reaction and rider. That's pretty good, but it eats up both your bonus action and reaction. I'd cut out the middle step and just use Booming Blade as a bonus action- you lose out on 4d8 guaranteed damage in exchange for a possible 8-12d8, depending on your DM, an extra chance to Smite, and a saved spell slot in the process. Cast Holy Weapon as a bonus action buff when you activate your capstone and you're in business for approximately a metric ton of damage (about 100 per turn before Smiting or reactions).

If you do go pure Ancients Paladin, I'd probably stay away from PAM since you'll have other excellent uses for your bonus action. GWM, Mounted Combatant, Sentinel, and Warcaster are all great picks for a feat though.

Good catch on just being able to cast booming blade directly. But don't forget the defensive advantages of the "flee" command. You deny the whole turn to the creature, and maybe one more turn to get back. Even if they DO have legendary resistance, having them use it on a 1st level spell cast with a bonus action is a win for the party. And then there may be others in the party who get to have an opportunity attack...

PAM at level 20 will be wasted on that one big fight, but it's still very useful on all the other fights. It's a tough choice. If you are not going to use Command and have a good chance of getting a nice magical glaive, might be better to get both PAM and GWM instead of one of them and warcaster. Then, even in the big fight, PAM will give you your reaction attack.

[Lunali]

Posting from mobile so please forgive lack of formatting or any autocorrect issues.

I’m looking at options for an OoA paladin build. This would be a backup character in a high level campaign and conceptually I’m imagining that they are the many-generations-ago patriarch of the family of my current character. Literally from another age, mostly avoiding civilisation and bound by his oaths.

If something happens to my current character then the old (immortal and ageless) boy comes out to put things straight. The matriarch is an archdruid so also still around but that is a build for another day...

Technically, much like a monk, OoA paladin still ages, they just don't suffer the drawbacks of old age. Unlike monk, they aren't specifically called out as still dying of old age, so the DM gets to decide that (and if you don't mention it, they will probably assume in your favor).

[CTurbo]

IMO, the Paladin's level 18 bigger aura range is stronger than ANY mutliclass combo possible, and then there are the capstones.... yeah I wouldn't multiclass. Ever.

[Willowhelm]

Most of the suggestions here echo my own previous thoughts (although I hadn’t considered trying to pick up elven accuracy) but I’m not closer to making the decisions. Is everything really much the same from an optimisation standpoint? What are you really giving up or gaining for one vs the other?


If you want to use elven accuracy,gwm or pam you need hexblade 3 and pact of the blade.
So you are loosing on the paladin 30ft aura
I wouldn't worry about the level 20 capstone though, it's strong but nothing crazy on the oath of the ancients.

I don’t follow the logic here. Where is the need for the 3 levels? If the build is a dex paladin you can benefit from Elven accuracy anyway, right? If you just want to use CHA you only need one level of hexblade?

Also interesting that you say the capstone is nothing crazy where others say it is “incredibly strong”


Normally I'd tell people to not think about level 20, focus on what build is more fun to play at the time. But if you're starting at 15, that's less relevant.

Has the DM confirmed that you'll spend time at level 20? Do you know what the other party members will be, and/or if they're optimizers?

Personally, I think a single-classed paladin is plenty strong and a good character. sorc/bard/lock dips just push it from strong into dominating territory.

Your capstone is:

10 hp regen/turn
Free Quicken metamagic on your spells
Nearby enemies have Heighten metamagic on your spells.



Are you really gonna focus on casting Destructive Wave? Do you think you'd have more fun with some other things from dips?

Admittedly, the high level paladin feature I'm most jazzed about is the level 18 Aura radius improvement. So I wouldn't personally dip more than 2 levels, but that cuts you out of sorc/bard dipping, pretty much just hexblade for agonizing blast and 2 castings of Shield. Or fighter for Action Surge, if you wanted. 4 Smites in 1 turn!

We may not spend a lot of time at 20 but half of the fun for me is in imagining the “complete” character so I am not too concerned with “missing out” on the way there. They may never even see any time in play and just be part of my main character’s back story after all.

The other characters are not optimisers at all.

It seems like you believe that the multi class does make it more effective than the capstone though. Could you elaborate?

I also don’t have any real experience with the paladin spell list or action economy so I don’t know what will be competing for my bonus action most rounds. If the DM is a stickler for spell casting, is there an issue with sword and board and spells that means war caster is needed? (Not sure how many are somatic without material)

Is protector assimar a waste of race or also viable?

There doesn’t seem to be much love for the dex build. Is that purely because it has a more restrictive weapon selection or is there some other mechanical reason it undermines the class? Max dex studded leather or 14 with a breastplate doesn’t drop your AC much.

At the moment I’m leaning toward a hexblade dip to be SAD, medium armour until a magic item makes plate possible. Hard to let go of that capstone though.

The SAD dip is mainly just to open up the feat selection, rather than the other benefits from warlock but I’d like to hear in theme options for a 2 level dip there.

I understand that PAM/GWM are almost automatic picks for most builds but what is a less common but viable option? Is there a lance user build that works? Pegasus + shield + lance or sword seems like “fun”?

[Willowhelm]

IMO, the Paladin's level 18 bigger aura range is stronger than ANY mutliclass combo possible, and then there are the capstones.... yeah I wouldn't multiclass. Ever.

Nice strong opinion there! How would you build your 20th lvl OoA then?

Also... Care to back that opinion with some objective comparisons? There are a lot of sorcadin/hexadin builds out there that clearly disagree! Do you just mean with the restriction of at least 15 in paladin?

[Willowhelm]

Technically, much like a monk, OoA paladin still ages, they just don't suffer the drawbacks of old age. Unlike monk, they aren't specifically called out as still dying of old age, so the DM gets to decide that (and if you don't mention it, they will probably assume in your favor).

I definitely consider dying of old age a drawback of old age!

It’s tricky to find the right words in English for someone who is old (and ages) but doesn’t have the “drawbacks”. Is grey hair a drawback? Wrinkles? What is there that distinguishes something as a sign of ageing that isn’t a drawback? Memory loss is a drawback but then so is ptsd or depression from everyone you know becoming decrepit and dying... certainly some good RP options in there.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Nice strong opinion there! How would you build your 20th lvl OoA then?

Also... Care to back that opinion with some objective comparisons? There are a lot of sorcadin/hexadin builds out there that clearly disagree! Do you just mean with the restriction of at least 15 in paladin?

The Sorcadin/Hexadin builds focus more on themselves than helping the rest of the party, they typically go with a more offense-focused oath like vengeance. It's not necessarily worth the 18th level with anything but Ancients.

It's pretty standard to go PAM and GWM for dealing damage. Prioritize Str > Cha > Con > all else, Half-Elf and Variant Human are basically equally good choices but Half-Elf would want to trade an ASI for Elven Accuracy. So a Half-Elf would put 15 on Str, Con, Cha, 8 on Dex, Int, Wis, +1 on Str and Con, apply Elven Accuracy's +1 to Cha, and with two ASIs you'll have Str 20, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 18. Going with a Variant Human loses the +2 Cha and the half-ASI feat, and gains two full ASIs, so you can have something like Str 20, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 18, or move the 10 to Int or Wis as you prefer. I'd say Half-Elf is better due to darkvision, the power of Elven Accuracy, and your choice of either extra skills or a free cantrip like Booming Blade.

[diplomancer]

If you are going to use elven accuracy that's either an hexblade dip or a dexadin, since elven accuracy doesn't work with Str. And if you want Elven Accuracy with GWM you will need 3 hexblade levels.

If you go full dexadin, you can't multiclass without being MAD, and you really don't have room for many feats (elven accuracy + warcaster). That's why I suggest starting as a Dexadin, but getting a Belt of Giant Str later. This allows you to leave your dex at 16, max cha, and have room for 3 feats (my suggestions, as above, are GWM, Warcaster- forget components, you are getting it for the concentration and the spell on an opportunity attack- and Mounted Combatant). And you won't need the hexblade level. Of course, there's the opportunity cost of whatever magic item you are giving up to have the belt of giant strength, as well as the attunement cost.

The capstone is great, and probably the best option, IF you have booming blade (which you can easily get from half-elf), since a cantrip is a spell, and you get to cast spells with bonus actions with the capstone. Otherwise, it's good, but there might be better options.

I would not recommend getting 1 level in hexblade, and never getting more than 1. No invocation is worth an extra 5th level slot and an extra feat.

[1Pirate]

Could you clarify why you're maxing strength on an Elven Accuracy build?
Edit: Responding to Biff's post.

[Willowhelm]

If you are going to use elven accuracy that's either an hexblade dip or a dexadin, since elven accuracy doesn't work with Str. And if you want Elven Accuracy with GWM you will need 3 hexblade levels.

As this is the second time this has been said can someone explain why the 3 levels are necessary? I’m sure I’m missing something in my reading but I don’t know what it is!

[1Pirate]

Can't use a big weapon with Cha until you get pact of the blade.

[diplomancer]

As this is the second time this has been said can someone explain why the 3 levels are necessary? I’m sure I’m missing something in my reading but I don’t know what it is!

"Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls."

[Willowhelm]

Can't use a big weapon with Cha until you get pact of the blade.


"Whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and that lacks the two-handed property. When you attack with that weapon, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls."

Thanks! I knew I was missing something :)

[OracularPoet]

Booming Blade cannot be cast as a bonus action with the capstone, according to my printing of the PHB. Only paladin spells qualify.

[diplomancer]

Booming Blade cannot be cast as a bonus action with the capstone, according to my printing of the PHB. Only paladin spells qualify.

Good point, means that the command/warcaster/booming blade OA combo is the way to go here.

But DC19 Wis save at disadvantage, there's a very good chance that it will work every round.

[Willowhelm]

Booming Blade cannot be cast as a bonus action with the capstone, according to my printing of the PHB. Only paladin spells qualify.

Excellent point. I thought that on my first read but others seemed to think it was acceptable. Is there any wordage/ruling that says whether a cantrip picked up from being an elf is added to your class’s spell list or not? Any way to pick it up legitimately?

[CTurbo]

Nice strong opinion there! How would you build your 20th lvl OoA then?

Also... Care to back that opinion with some objective comparisons? There are a lot of sorcadin/hexadin builds out there that clearly disagree! Do you just mean with the restriction of at least 15 in paladin?


As "boring" as it sounds, spending 4 ASIs maxing Str and Cha and then toss in one feat for something like PAM, Sentinel, or Inspiring Leader if no one else has it, etc... is all you need to have an amazing character. This what I would do if I was building a level 20 OoA Pally. Depending on campaign, I could see possibly leaving Str or Cha at 18 if I REALLY needed 2 feats.

Paladins make entire parties better. The more Paladin levels there are, the better the entire party is, and the bigger headache the DM is going to have. The whole party will be in your 30ft auras far more often than not. This is a massive feature. This is +4-5 to all saves, nobody can ever be frightened again, and resistance to all spell damage always for pretty much everybody all the time

When I play a Paladin, I'm playing a Paladin to be a Paladin, not necessarily trying to min-max DPR in every way possible. Paladins already deal a respectable amount of damage and a simple PAM feat increases that quite a bit.

[ThatoneGuy84]

If your starting at 15 and want to be less feat starved. 1 hex/14 pally seems your best option.
Assuming VHuman
Assuming point buy
12Str + 1 V hum
8 Dex
14 Con
8 Int
14 Wis
15 Cha + 1 Vhum

(15 con/13wis if you wanna take resiliant con for 16 con which I think isnt needed for pally at all.

Warcaster feat (sword and board)
Asi @ 4 - 2 cha
Asi @ 8 - 2 char
Feat @ 12 - SM is my pick here
Feat @16
Feat @ 19 Pally

Or more ASI for con
With a single level dip.

[Willowhelm]

As "boring" as it sounds, spending 4 ASIs maxing Str and Cha and then toss in one feat for something like PAM, Sentinel, or Inspiring Leader if no one else has it, etc... is all you need to have an amazing character. This what I would do if I was building a level 20 OoA Pally. Depending on campaign, I could see possibly leaving Str or Cha at 18 if I REALLY needed 2 feats.

Paladins make entire parties better. The more Paladin levels there are, the better the entire party is, and the bigger headache the DM is going to have. The whole party will be in your 30ft auras far more often than not. This is a massive feature. This is +4-5 to all saves, nobody can ever be frightened again, and resistance to all spell damage always for pretty much everybody all the time

When I play a Paladin, I'm playing a Paladin to be a Paladin, not necessarily trying to min-max DPR in every way possible. Paladins already deal a respectable amount of damage and a simple PAM feat increases that quite a bit.

The simplicity is appealing. Do you have any recommendations on magic items to even out some of the weaknesses? I’m thinking a sentinel shield perhaps to balance what would be a low initiative and perception?

[micahaphone]

The simplicity is appealing. Do you have any recommendations on magic items to even out some of the weaknesses? I’m thinking a sentinel shield perhaps to balance what would be a low initiative and perception?

How many magic items are you starting with, and has the DM said what types you can start with (ex: one very rare, one rare, and 3 uncommon?)

Sentinel Shield is good, if you wanted you could grab one of the giant's strength belts, thus freeing up some ASI for other stats, like making sure you have a maxed CHA or more CON.


If your DM would let you have a Legendary tier item, a Holy Avenger is the quintessential paladin weapon. +3 sword of some type, extra damage to fiends and undead, and it adds to your aura advantage on spell saves. Imagine your whole party have +5, advantage, and resistance to spells. You guys could hang out in fireball formation and still only take ~10 damage from fireballs!

[Willowhelm]

How many magic items are you starting with, and has the DM said what types you can start with (ex: one very rare, one rare, and 3 uncommon?)

Sentinel Shield is good, if you wanted you could grab one of the giant's strength belts, thus freeing up some ASI for other stats, like making sure you have a maxed CHA or more CON.


If your DM would let you have a Legendary tier item, a Holy Avenger is the quintessential paladin weapon. +3 sword of some type, extra damage to fiends and undead, and it adds to your aura advantage on spell saves. Imagine your whole party have +5, advantage, and resistance to spells. You guys could hang out in fireball formation and still only take ~10 damage from fireballs!

I could definitely get the DMG recommended number and probably a little more especially if they’re more on the gimmicky/situational side than the combat-bonus side. I can’t recall what it is but maybe two common two rare? Legendary as a starting item seems a little OP. Gotta work for those goods! I’d definitely list it as something I’d be hoping to find/quest for though.

[stoutstien]

I could definitely get the DMG recommended number and probably a little more especially if they’re more on the gimmicky/situational side than the combat-bonus side. I can’t recall what it is but maybe two common two rare? Legendary as a starting item seems a little OP. Gotta work for those goods! I’d definitely list it as something I’d be hoping to find/quest for though.

When it comes to pally looking/wishing for magical items mobility should be a high priority. Even with find greater steed you may want a way to make sure you can get close, and stay close, to those who need a good smiting.
Winged boots are only uncommon and provide plenty of air time.

[Willowhelm]

When it comes to pally looking/wishing for magical items mobility should be a high priority. Even with find greater steed you may want a way to make sure you can get close, and stay close, to those who need a good smiting.
Winged boots are only uncommon and provide plenty of air time.

This was one reason I considered a protector aasimar. It would only be one fight but you have flight. I’ve got the boots on a current character so a different option for flight might be nice.

[Hael]

Normally I consider mcing out of paladin at lvl 6 or 7 to be mechanically superior, however at lvl 15 with ooa I don’t think it makes sense and would probably stay single class, as you’ve bypassed many of the bad single class lvls.

I think at least till lvl 18 for the aura, given that the OOA is primarily a party buffer and tank (damage and spells are third) so non maxed str isn’t as big of a deal.

Then decide if two lvls of hexblade is better or worse than the capstone + asi. Personally I’d go for the capstone at that point, items could change the calculus as well as well as party dpr needs.

[Satori01]

Access to Dragonmarked Races or Ravinica Guild backgrounds can add spells to the Paladin list.

It costs you your daily Capstone, but casting the Awaken spell as a bonus action, is novel to say the least.

[Willowhelm]

Access to Dragonmarked Races or Ravinica Guild backgrounds can add spells to the Paladin list.

It costs you your daily Capstone, but casting the Awaken spell as a bonus action, is novel to say the least.

That’s true. Unfortunately they don’t have BB iirc. What would compliment the OoA list? I don’t mind taking them for a bit of flavour but they’re definitely pushing things into over optimised - Always a bit cheeky to take the OP extra spells and pick up spirit guardians just because you can. Would it still be AL legal (just curious, not a requirement)?

Also awaken is an 8 hour casting so isn't eligible for a bonus action cast time.

[ThatoneGuy84]

Magic items can make you alittle less stat dependant and alittle more item dependant.
If you want to max Cha only you could always pick up
Rare - Belt of giant Str
Or Uncommon - Gauntlet of oger str
And toss away about ASIs for feats (being you start with them and you dont have to actually level the char)
Allowing more feat versatility and still go capstone 20.

Boots of speed (cause double move speed)
Sentinal sheild (great for uncommon)
Some sort of sword (doesnt matter much but if you really want some free dps flametongue) but any old + sword will work
Belt of giant str

[CTurbo]

The simplicity is appealing. Do you have any recommendations on magic items to even out some of the weaknesses? I’m thinking a sentinel shield perhaps to balance what would be a low initiative and perception?


Well I don't see a properly built OoA Pally having any real weaknesses. I never dump Dex under 10 unless it fits a certain rp theme. I pretty much always take the Perception skill too again unless not having it fits a certain rp aspect. Anyway, Half-Elf at level 1 gets you 16 Str, 16 Cha, 14 Con, 8 Int, and leaves you with a 12 and 10 for Dex and Wis in whichever order you prefer. If you want 16 Con, just put 10 in Dex and dump Wis to 8. You can still take Perception skill and add your Cha mod to Wis saves. I don't like attempting to build a character around magic items.

[diplomancer]

How I'd do it, including magical items:
Half- elf, point buy, No multiclass, defense FS, unless your DM allows great weapon style to work with smites
Str 8, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16
2 ASIs for Cha
Feats, in order: Mounted Combatant, War Caster (at 16), GWM (at 19)
Uncommon items: greatsword of warning and either mithril or adamantine plate mail
Rare Items: belt of hill giant str, ring of spell storing- find greater steed for all the party, they are going to love you.

[Satori01]

That’s true. Unfortunately they don’t have BB iirc. What would compliment the OoA list? I don’t mind taking them for a bit of flavour but they’re definitely pushing things into over optimised -

Rakados for Haste, could work well.

At this time, there is no official way for Paladin to get Booming Blade on the Paladin list. I do not have the Theros book, so unless something exists in that book, I think BB + Pally capstone is a no go.

[diplomancer]

Rakados for Haste, could work well.

At this time, there is no official way for Paladin to get Booming Blade on the Paladin list. I do not have the Theros book, so unless something exists in that book, I think BB + Pally capstone is a no go.

True, but bonus action command->reaction attack (warcaster) BB works, probably almost every turn, unless the BBEG burns a legendary resistance on a bonus action cast 1st level spell.

[sithlordnergal]

Hmmm, I would say take two levels of Hexblade. The OoA capstone is strong, don't get me wrong, but with two levels of Hexblade you get:

- A few level 1 spells, most notable is Shield. As a Paladin you should have high AC. Hell, if you can get a +3 Shield, Defense Fighting style, and +1 Plate armor, you can get 32 AC with Shield of Faith and Shield.

- Hex Warrior, which is incredible for a Paladin. You can max out your Charisma and take feats without having to rely on a Belt to keep your strength high for combat.

- Hexblades Curse, which is also highly effective in the hands of a Paladin. Your crit range becomes a lovely 19-20 and you'll be doing an extra 5-6 points of damage with every swing.

- Cantrips that fix any issues you might have with ranged combat. Specifically you get access to Chill Touch, Booming Blade, and Eldritch Blast. You'll only get two of course, but that's ok. Personally I'd go with Eldritch Blast and Chill Touch. Eldritch Blast because it can be buffed by Invocations, Chill Touch because it is the most broken cantrip in the entire game thanks to its tao effects.

- Two first level spell slots that recharge on a short rest, which is pretty handy

- Eldritch Invocations, specifically Agonizing Blast to turn Eldritch Blast into the equivalent of a Heavy Crossbow and a fun Invocation like Darkvision that sees through Darkness, Silent Image at will, or maybe even Disguise Self at will.

- With an 18 Paladin /2 Warlock split, you still gain 5th level spells, a 5th level spell slot, and your Aura buff.
----

Compare all of that to what you'd be giving up:

A single ASI that you won't really need anyway with the Hexblade build. Assuming you do standard point buy, you can start with a 15 Strength and a 16 Charisma, then you can toss two ASI's into Charisma, be done with boosting your ability scores, and have two ASI's to use as you wish.

Meanwhile a regular Paladin is gonna want to start with 16 Strength and Charisma, and will want to end with at least an 18 Strength but preferably 20 strength, and a 20 Charisma. That's 3-4 ASI'S out of five going towards ability scores alone.

And you lose out on the capstone, which lets you regain 10 hp at the start of your turn, you can cast Paladin spells as a bonus action, and enemies within 10 feet of you have disadvantage on saves against your spells.

I admit it is a good capstone, but with two downsides. First, it lasts a minute and you can do it once per long rest. Second, the bonus action casting and disadvantage on saves only applies to Paladin spells, and your Paladin Channel Divinity. Paladin spells are strong, don't get my wrong, but you don't have the slots to be a pure caster. Not if you still wanna smite anyway.

All in all, I would go with the hexblade warlock 2 option. Its as strong, if not stronger than, the Capstone for the Paladin

[diplomancer]

Hmmm, I would say take two levels of Hexblade. The OoA capstone is strong, don't get me wrong, but with two levels of Hexblade you get:

- A few level 1 spells, most notable is Shield. As a Paladin you should have high AC. Hell, if you can get a +3 Shield, Defense Fighting style, and +1 Plate armor, you can get 32 AC with Shield of Faith and Shield.

- Hex Warrior, which is incredible for a Paladin. You can max out your Charisma and take feats without having to rely on a Belt to keep your strength high for combat.

- Hexblades Curse, which is also highly effective in the hands of a Paladin. Your crit range becomes a lovely 19-20 and you'll be doing an extra 5-6 points of damage with every swing.

- Cantrips that fix any issues you might have with ranged combat. Specifically you get access to Chill Touch, Booming Blade, and Eldritch Blast. You'll only get two of course, but that's ok. Personally I'd go with Eldritch Blast and Chill Touch. Eldritch Blast because it can be buffed by Invocations, Chill Touch because it is the most broken cantrip in the entire game thanks to its tao effects.

- Two first level spell slots that recharge on a short rest, which is pretty handy

- Eldritch Invocations, specifically Agonizing Blast to turn Eldritch Blast into the equivalent of a Heavy Crossbow and a fun Invocation like Darkvision that sees through Darkness, Silent Image at will, or maybe even Disguise Self at will.

- With an 18 Paladin /2 Warlock split, you still gain 5th level spells, a 5th level spell slot, and your Aura buff.
----

Compare all of that to what you'd be giving up:

A single ASI that you won't really need anyway with the Hexblade build. Assuming you do standard point buy, you can start with a 15 Strength and a 16 Charisma, then you can toss two ASI's into Charisma, be done with boosting your ability scores, and have two ASI's to use as you wish.

Meanwhile a regular Paladin is gonna want to start with 16 Strength and Charisma, and will want to end with at least an 18 Strength but preferably 20 strength, and a 20 Charisma. That's 3-4 ASI'S out of five going towards ability scores alone.

And you lose out on the capstone, which lets you regain 10 hp at the start of your turn, you can cast Paladin spells as a bonus action, and enemies within 10 feet of you have disadvantage on saves against your spells.

I admit it is a good capstone, but with two downsides. First, it lasts a minute and you can do it once per long rest. Second, the bonus action casting and disadvantage on saves only applies to Paladin spells, and your Paladin Channel Divinity. Paladin spells are strong, don't get my wrong, but you don't have the slots to be a pure caster. Not if you still wanna smite anyway.

All in all, I would go with the hexblade warlock 2 option. Its as strong, if not stronger than, the Capstone for the Paladin

One level of hexblade is a good option, but 2 is really not worth it, I believe. 1 extra 1st level spell/SR, 2 invocations, vs. 1 feat and an extra 5th level slot. I don't think it's even close, unless you are taking a LOT of short rests (at least 3, I'd say, which, in my experience, is pretty rare)

[Willowhelm]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I went with the most "boring" option in the end!

At least in theory. Lvl 20 build sitting on the shelf now... We will see if it ever gets play time and if I change anything up when the time comes.

ASI's for strength and CHA. No SADness, no dips. No belt of strength. I decided to go Aasimar to lean into the immortal protector of good RP and skip getting BB. The one feat pick up is currently allocated to mage slayer but it may change depending on the state of things if/when it actually gets some play time.

A lot of the optimisation suggestions and combos i've already used on my other characters and in the end it felt like everything was a little too cheesy and not the right feel for the character I had in mind. My bard had an option for everything, my wizard has plans on plans... This guy is straight forward and simple.

I chose an amulet of health for my biggest magic item pick up. He may not hit as hard as an optimized PAM/GWM/SAD whatever... but he can take the hits if they get through. Boots of eleven kind to balance the stealth disadvantage of plate, Sentinel shield to give a boost to perception and initiative. I'll see if the DM will allow mizzium plate or what else i can haggle for.

Thanks again!

Should be fun!

[micahaphone]

Thanks for the advice everyone. I went with the most "boring" option in the end!

At least in theory. Lvl 20 build sitting on the shelf now... We will see if it ever gets play time and if I change anything up when the time comes.

ASI's for strength and CHA. No SADness, no dips. No belt of strength. I decided to go Aasimar to lean into the immortal protector of good RP and skip getting BB. The one feat pick up is currently allocated to mage slayer but it may change depending on the state of things if/when it actually gets some play time.

A lot of the optimisation suggestions and combos i've already used on my other characters and in the end it felt like everything was a little too cheesy and not the right feel for the character I had in mind. My bard had an option for everything, my wizard has plans on plans... This guy is straight forward and simple.

I chose an amulet of health for my biggest magic item pick up. He may not hit as hard as an optimized PAM/GWM/SAD whatever... but he can take the hits if they get through. Boots of eleven kind to balance the stealth disadvantage of plate, Sentinel shield to give a boost to perception and initiative. I'll see if the DM will allow mizzium plate or what else i can haggle for.

Thanks again!

Should be fun!


That sure sounds like fun!

Might want to check with your DM as to how they run Mage Slayer before you take it, just as a heads up.

[CTurbo]

You're not going to regret staying single class!

I'm not sure about Mage Slayer, but it's not bad if you actually get to use it. It's not something I would want on a Paladin though.

[Willowhelm]

You're not going to regret staying single class!

I'm not sure about Mage Slayer, but it's not bad if you actually get to use it. It's not something I would want on a Paladin though.

If this character sees the table anytime soon it will make sense in the campaign. Plenty of spell casters that need a good smiting to break their concentration. If i play it some other time I will most likely switch it out for something that makes more sense for whatever campaign it is in.

[CTurbo]

If this character sees the table anytime soon it will make sense in the campaign. Plenty of spell casters that need a good smiting to break their concentration. If i play it some other time I will most likely switch it out for something that makes more sense for whatever campaign it is in.

My concern with Mage Slayer on a Paladin is how are you going to consistently reach the spellcasters?

[1Pirate]

OoA get Misty Step, that will work any place that a Steed won't cut it.

[CTurbo]

OoA get Misty Step, that will work any place that a Steed won't cut it.

Yeah true and honestly Find Greater Steed is mobile enough.