Fabricate for Very Interesting Things?

[5crownik007]

Spell Description, for those unfamiliar (https://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm)

Okay, so we can use Fabricate to make something, anything really.
The description doesn't say we have to use all of the material to make some thing, in fact it seems to imply you can perform at least some degree of refinement: "...a rope from a patch of hemp..."

Alright, bear with me, here because we're going to be diving into a quick chemistry lesson.
Hematite is a mineral which contains iron. (Fe2O3)

Is it conceivable that I could make an iron cube out of a chunk of hematite, and let the remaining oxygen fizzle and pop into a more stable form?

Okay, next question: "Choose raw materials that you can see within range."
Note the pluralization of materials. Does this imply we can use multiple materials in a single Fabricate to create a single object?

Because, if both of those are true, then all sorts of !!FUN!! can be had, for example:

1) extract amorphous Boron from a mineral (Borax, for example)
2) extract amorphous Carbon similarly (carbon is everywhere, man)
3) create Boron Carbide, the material used in modern infantry armour, with a near-diamond level of hardness, and a lower density than steel
4) ???
5) have proficiency with smith's tools (lots of ways to get that)
6) create an epic set of armour for your fighter/whoever

And that's just one example of the sorts of !!FUN!! you can have if the above 2 premises are true. You can just do straight up nuclear fission with your magic spell, if you're allowed to pull individual neutrons and protons out of atomic nuclei. Nuclear fusion is fair game there too.

Is my interpretation foolish? Should you be able to do nuclear fission with a fourth-level spell?

(yes, this thread is partly a joke, but also partly a legitimate question)

[moonfly7]

I think that by spell description it's definitely possible, but to use it you'd have to meta game unless your setting had actually figured out what elements really are, possessed a periodic table, and had all the concepts required to pull this off. So yes, the spell probably could, but as a DM I'd say your character needs to have an understanding of everything they're trying to do. Some thing not available in most midevil settings.

[5crownik007]

I think that by spell description it's definitely possible, but to use it you'd have to meta game unless your setting had actually figured out what elements really are, possessed a periodic table, and had all the concepts required to pull this off. So yes, the spell probably could, but as a DM I'd say your character needs to have an understanding of everything they're trying to do. Some thing not available in most midevil settings.

Surely with the existence of divination magic and the scientific field of alchemy(equivalent to chemistry in DnD), one would be able to determine the true composition of matter... But alas, you are right, DnD is indeed by default, a medieval setting... Not for any good reason, just by writer fiat.

Still. Nuclear fission with a 4th level spell sounds awesome.

[moonfly7]

Surely with the existence of divination magic and the scientific field of alchemy(equivalent to chemistry in DnD), one would be able to determine the true composition of matter... But alas, you are right, DnD is indeed by default, a medieval setting... Not for any good reason, just by writer fiat.

Still. Nuclear fission with a 4th level spell sounds awesome.

Personally I think I'd have to disagree on the not for any reason aspect of that.
I'm of the opinion that we only went the direction of gunpowder and guns and bombs and all of that because we discovered it before anything else and stopped looking for other things, and instead spent our energy making those discoveries and weapons better. Same with electricity, since most ways of generating it still boil down to(no pun intended) using steam or other forces to turn a wheel, and we still don't look for other options(we do obviously but I mean completely new wild ones.)
My point of all of that is that people don't tend to look past what works. Instead of trying to find new ways, we tend to improve the old ways, which isn't bad necessarily because it makes the old ways really really useful. This is important to remember when looking at other worlds like DND, they have no reason to delve into science, gunpowder, or anything like that. They've got magic, and DND alchemy is much more magic based than it is anything like real world alchemy, which was just basically chemistry.

World's with magic inevitably wouldn't think like us, or make the same innovations as us, because we went the direction of gunpowder, and they wouldn't need to because they have(depending on the world) easy access to magic. I think the boggest mistake in modern fantasies is trying to make analogs to our tech but with magic. Instead we should look at the magic, and everything it can do, try our best to throw everything we know about our science and technology out of our brains for a moment, and ask ourselves what we would do with these if we had no preconceptions about tech or development. Obviously this is nigh impossible because we do have biases from the real world, but I feel that making an effort to think outside our box is both very fun and a good way to better think like our characters.

[JackPhoenix]

Surely with the existence of divination magic and the scientific field of alchemy(equivalent to chemistry in DnD), one would be able to determine the true composition of matter... But alas, you are right, DnD is indeed by default, a medieval setting... Not for any good reason, just by writer fiat.

Still. Nuclear fission with a 4th level spell sounds awesome.

Sure. There are air atoms, earth atoms, fire atoms, and water atoms. Differen ratios between them give different materials different qualities. Earth atoms present in metals make them hard and dense, and more water atoms compared to iron make bronze more malleable. Fire atoms bound in the structure of the wood make it flammable, and different ratios of air or earth atoms in different species of trees make the wood more or less dense.

Nuclear fission? Is that where you somehow split one creature into two smaller ones?

You're talking about game where poisons and acids have universal effect, where lightning (not electricity, lightning) damage is different from fire damage, magical force (and radiant and necrotic) "energy" is a thing. Black powder doesn't work in FR due to literal divine intervention, while they have effectively the exactly same, but explicitly magical smokepowder. Real world physics and chemistry does not apply to D&D.

[moonfly7]

Sure. There are air atoms, earth atoms, fire atoms, and water atoms. Differen ratios between them give different materials different qualities. Earth atoms present in metals make them hard and dense, and more water atoms compared to iron make bronze more malleable. Fire atoms bound in the structure of the wood make it flammable, and different ratios of air or earth atoms in different species of trees make the wood more or less dense.

Nuclear fission? Is that where you somehow split one creature into two smaller ones?

You're talking about game where poisons and acids have universal effect, where lightning (not electricity, lightning) damage is different from fire damage, magical force (and radiant and necrotic) "energy" is a thing. Black powder doesn't work in FR due to literal divine intervention, while they have effectively the exactly same, but explicitly magical smokepowder. Real world physics and chemistry does not apply to D&D.

I like the refference to the original theory of atoms by the way. You forgot aether though, that mysterious stuff we don't understand.

[JackPhoenix]

I like the refference to the original theory of atoms by the way. You forgot aether though, that mysterious stuff we don't understand.

Well, AFAIK aether (in the original greek theory) wasn't a part of ordinary matter, though I suppose it could fit the role of positive/negative energy in D&D terms.

[5crownik007]

You're talking about game where poisons and acids have universal effect, where lightning (not electricity, lightning) damage is different from fire damage, magical force (and radiant and necrotic) "energy" is a thing. Black powder doesn't work in FR due to literal divine intervention, while they have effectively the exactly same, but explicitly magical smokepowder. Real world physics and chemistry does not apply to D&D.

I can get that, but, how am I supposed to believe we're following a different set of physical and chemical rules when there are humans in the setting, who operate mostly under the same biological rules as real life, normal humans who follow our physical rules. All this magical stuff could be an addendum to standard, real physics, and it would work (mostly) fine.

Real world physics and chemistry most certainly does apply to DnD, because you can start campfires, throw rocks, and heat stuff and expect it to follow certain physical rules... People make steel in DnD, which follows our rules of chemistry.

In short you would have to make an actually functional alternative model of physics that can simulate our reality and also prevent me from splitting atoms, which is going to require some extensive knowledge, just to stop me from using a single spell to perform nuclear fission.


World's with magic inevitably wouldn't think like us, or make the same innovations as us, because we went the direction of gunpowder, and they wouldn't need to because they have(depending on the world) easy access to magic. I think the boggest mistake in modern fantasies is trying to make analogs to our tech but with magic. Instead we should look at the magic, and everything it can do, try our best to throw everything we know about our science and technology out of our brains for a moment, and ask ourselves what we would do with these if we had no preconceptions about tech or development. Obviously this is nigh impossible because we do have biases from the real world, but I feel that making an effort to think outside our box is both very fun and a good way to better think like our characters.

Yes, but the nature of another civilization's technology doesn't change the fundamental model of particle physics
Even if we were all living on mountains and using some other electricity production, atoms would still be atoms, and their behavior would still be observable. Just because you have added magic to some setting, that doesn't make atoms stop being atoms.

[MaxWilson]

I can get that, but, how am I supposed to believe we're following a different set of physical and chemical rules when there are humans in the setting, who operate mostly under the same biological rules as real life, normal humans who follow our physical rules.

Er, no, 5E humans are quite different from real-world humans in many ways, from their extremely slow running speeds to the speed with which they starve to death without food to the way they heal from life-threatening injuries (like stab wounds) in a matter of mere hours.

There's no evidence that 5E humans even have cell differentiation or are made out of fundamental particles of irreducible size, let alone the same fundamental particles that we have here in our universe.

[JackPhoenix]

Real world physics and chemistry most certainly does apply to DnD, because you can start campfires, throw rocks, and heat stuff and expect it to follow certain physical rules... People make steel in DnD, which follows our rules of chemistry.

You can start fire, but that doesn't mean real world physics or chemistry is involved. It may simply be that you temporarily increase the influence Elemental Plane of Fire has on the world.
You can throw rocks, but unlike throwing rocks in real world, your strength or the rock's size or other factors don't have any influence over how far you can throw it or how much damage will it do (20'/60' range, 1d4+Dex damage). And somewhat related, there's no gravity acceleration, if something falls, it falls instantly the maximum distance (or 500', if the distance is more than 500' and you're using optional rules). Don't let me start about momentum....
You can heat stuff, but you can have "red-hot glowing" piece of metal that's perfectly safe to handle unless the one who heated cause it to damage creatures (and only creatures) once every 6 seconds. You can create fiery explosions, but they don't cause more damage when inside confined areas like real explosions would, and they don't damage anything that's not a creature... that means a sword lying on the ground stays untouched, but the same sword given the ability to fly around and stab people on its own is destroyed.
People make steel in D&D, but there's no evidence their steel is the same as our steel on any level beyond the name and some superficial appearance.
There are giant arachnids and insects running around not being crushed by their own weight, not bothered by the fact that they shouldn't be able to breathe in real world.
There are creatures capable of moving at speeds exceeding 500 mph who can turn in place and continue in the opposite direction without being turned into paste.

Real world physics and chemistry most certainly do *not* apply to D&D once you look beyond some vague similarities.


In short you would have to make an actually functional alternative model of physics that can simulate our reality and also prevent me from splitting atoms, which is going to require some extensive knowledge, just to stop me from using a single spell to perform nuclear fission.

I wouldn't, because D&D doesn't simulate... or even attempt to simulate.... our reality in the first place, and there's no need to have "actually functional alternative model of physics".

[5crownik007]

I wouldn't, because D&D doesn't simulate... or even attempt to simulate.... our reality in the first place, and there's no need to have "actually functional alternative model of physics".
The fact that there are humans with blood in their bloodstream who carry swords made of steel and iron, people burning torches, horse drawn carts, etc, indicates to me that the DND universe has to share at least a significant amount of its physics with reality, for these things to function the way we expect them to.

But! I have to realize we're getting far off topic, because we haven't mentioned the Fabricate spell at all for the last 3 or 4 posts

Let's make the assumption that things on the atomic scale look very similar. Does the wording of the Fabricate spell let me split atoms?

[MaxWilson]

Let's make the assumption that things on the atomic scale look very similar. Does the wording of the Fabricate spell let me split atoms?

"You convert raw materials into products of the same material" would seem to indicate that the answer is "no".

[moonfly7]

Yes, but the nature of another civilization's technology doesn't change the fundamental model of particle physics.


Yeah, but it does change if anyone has bothered to observe them, or has the ability to do so. Moreover, you've been talking about physics in DND being the same as our world. And I think to an extent it is. But magic defies the laws of physics. You can't figure out how atoms interact with magic because we don't have the weave in real life. Magic lets you create water and food out of nothing. Giant walls of stone? Energy hands???? Even if the matter is coming from somewhere, and I'm not sure it is, these things defy the petty rules of reality we've created to govern our world. And while they might follow some rules, like gravity, some of the time, they pick and choose which to care about. So I don't think you can accurately apply complex science to something that ignores it as it chooses.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

It’s simple.

Player knowledge ≠ Character knowledge.

How would your wizard POSSIBLY learn about atoms when they likely don’t even know molecules or cells. Microscopes don’t exist in FR, Eberron, Spelljammer, Greyhawk, etc.

[Satori01]

[QUOTE=5crownik007;24594131]Spell Description, for those unfamiliar (https://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm)

3) create Boron Carbide, the material used in modern infantry armour, with a near-diamond level of hardness, and a lower density than steel nuclear fission with your magic spell,

if you're allowed to pull individual neutrons and protons out of atomic nuclei. Nuclear fusion is fair game there too.
/QUOTE]

So the D&D equivalent of Boron Carbide is probably Mithral.

Auto manufacturers will use Ultra High Strength Steel in the vehicle rails to keep a similar amount of strength, while using less material, and thus reduce vehicle weight (& increase fuel economy).

UHSS is very susceptible to heat, and becomes brittle very quickly, if overheated. Many experienced automotive metal workers in fact damage UHSS further when trying to repair it, due to the fact it becomes brittle much faster then standard steel.

I think it would not be an unreasonable to rule that proficiency with more then Smith's Tools are required to use Fabricate to create finely worked Mithral objects.

As to your nuclear fusion question, what D&D Artisan Tools covers the Fantasy equivalent of nuclear fusion?

If you can answer that..then we can talk.

I have to warn you...there is a good chance that you are going to create an Uncontrolled Sphere of Annihilation.🤯

[Chronos]

My interpretation is that you can do anything with the materials that a reasonably skilled artisan with reasonable tools could do. Turn trees into a cabin? Sure, that's something a builder could do. Turn trees into carbon nanofiber? How?

[Azuresun]

Surely with the existence of divination magic and the scientific field of alchemy(equivalent to chemistry in DnD), one would be able to determine the true composition of matter... But alas, you are right, DnD is indeed by default, a medieval setting... Not for any good reason, just by writer fiat.

Still. Nuclear fission with a 4th level spell sounds awesome.

I think you answered your own question there. Is this anything you'd expect to actually use in a game? Would it enhance a typical campaign or setting to contrive a reason why 7th level wizards didn't nuke the world centuries ago? Would it be fun for the DM to shoot down endless attempts to break the economy or the fictional world?

The answer for those is "not really". At best, it's a cute little thought exercise and at worst, an attempt to break genre and the game.



It’s simple.

Player knowledge ≠ Character knowledge.

How would your wizard POSSIBLY learn about atoms when they likely don’t even know molecules or cells. Microscopes don’t exist in FR, Eberron, Spelljammer, Greyhawk, etc.

I have fond memories of a player who was adamant his (INT 10, no craft skills) character could invent gunpowder because "you just smush three common things together, anyone could figure that out!", and then skip 500-odd years of firearms development to make himself guns.

[Tanarii]

Fabricate doesn't indicate it can refine ores. I've always interpreted "materials" as requiring something reasonably close to the required ore a smith or carpenter or weaver would start with.



I have fond memories of a player who was adamant his (INT 10, no craft skills) character could invent gunpowder because "you just smush three common things together, anyone could figure that out!", and then skip 500-odd years of firearms development to make himself guns.Having made a crude analogue black powder as a teenager, it's pretty easy to get something that burns like a Large Roman candle, but not anything explosive.

[moonfly7]

Having made a crude analogue black powder as a teenager, it's pretty easy to get something that burns like a Large Roman candle, but not anything explosive.

And you had the advantage of knowing that black powder was a thing and at least a vague idea of what it looked like and what it was supposed to do. Obviously more complicated than it sounds.

[Mr Adventurer]

Alright, bear with me, here because we're going to be diving into a quick chemistry lesson.


Instantly you lost me. I don't believe this is an appropriate thing to do.

[Citadel97501]

The fact that there are humans with blood in their bloodstream who carry swords made of steel and iron, people burning torches, horse drawn carts, etc, indicates to me that the DND universe has to share at least a significant amount of its physics with reality, for these things to function the way we expect them to.

But! I have to realize we're getting far off topic, because we haven't mentioned the Fabricate spell at all for the last 3 or 4 posts

Let's make the assumption that things on the atomic scale look very similar. Does the wording of the Fabricate spell let me split atoms?

Yes, but the range of the spell means you would be dead nearly instantly so "for some reason" all the wizards and other casters make a note not to do this in their copy of the spell, not that anyone knows why the wizard melts into a cancerous puddle but eventually it just becomes a settled "arcane law".