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Grod_The_Giant
2020-07-03, 05:23 PM
Last year I attempted to work out a way to update 3.5's Tome of Battle to 5th edition, keeping as much of the original feel intact as possible. It... did not go as well (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?595786-5e-Tome-of-Battle-Brainstorming-Now-with-a-class!&p=24098562#post24098562) as I hoped. But! In light of the recent discussions on martial/caster disparities, I thought I'd take another crack at it.


The Maestro
Those who devote their lives to studying some aspect of the Sublime Way-- the secret lore that teaches a fighter how to meld their inner strength, training, and discipline into the perfect weapon-- are known as Maestros for their unsurpassed skill in battle. All are skilled in personal combat, but they rely on perception, learning, and willpower, in addition to pure physical aptitude for battle. Maestros seek to fuse tangible physical prowess with utmost control of the mind and spirit.

Straddling the line between the purely mundane and the openly magical, the techniques of the Sublime Way are unique, representing small moments of clarity, self-knowledge, piety, or perfection. Whether by tapping into a cosmic balance, inner ki, or raw physical ability, Maestros can achieve spectacular results.

HIT POINTS
Hit Dice: 1d8 per Maestro level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifier per level after 1st

PROFICIENCIES
Armor: Light and medium armor, shields
Weapons: Simple weapons, martial weapons
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Strength, Constitution
Skills: Choose two skills from Acrobatics, Athletics, History, Insight, Intimidation, Perception, and Survival

EQUIPMENT


(a) scale mail or (b) leather armor
(a) a martial weapon and a shield or (b) two martial weapons
(a) a longbow and 20 arrows or (b) four javelins
(a) a dungeoneer's pack or (b) an explorer's pack




Level
Features
Forms Known
Maneuvers Known
Maneuver Level


1st
Maneuvers
3
2
1st


2nd
Sublime Path
4
3
1st


3rd
--
4
4
2nd


4th
Ability Score Increase
5
5
2nd


5th
--
5
6
3rd


6th
Sublime Path
5
7
3rd


7th
Following Blow
5
8
4th


8th
Ability Score Increase
5
9
4th


9th
--
5
10
5th


10th
Sublime Path
6
10
5th


11th
Mastery Maneuvers
6
11
6th


12th
Ability Score Increase
6
11
6th


13th
--
6
12
7th


14th
Sublime Path
6
12
7th


15th
--
6
13
8th


16th
Ability Score Increase
6
13
8th


17th
--
6
14
9th


18th
Instant Momentum
6
14
9th


19th
Ability Score Increase
6
15
9th


20th
Double Stance
6
15
9th



Maneuvers: The various techniques of the Sublime Way are known as maneuvers. To an outsider, maneuvers appear similar to spells—both are discreet practices for achieving a single incredible result. The action required to initiate a maneuver is listed in the maneuver’s description. Maneuvers which are specified as requiring a weapon cannot be used unless you are currently wielding a weapon of that type. The range of a maneuver is either personal, or equal to the reach or range of your currently wielded weapon.


Forms: At first level, select three Forms from the Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven school. These techniques are the building blocks of the Sublime Way, simple maneuvers that may be used as often as desired. While they are effective techniques in and of themselves, the true power of a Form is to position both Maestro and opponent for a devastating attack. Before the end of your next turn, you may use one maneuver from the same school without spending any Momentum.

Momentum: Maneuvers are devastatingly powerful, but they are also specific—practiced moves and techniques developed to take advantage of specific advantages of position and flaws in the target’s defenses. In order to use a maneuver, you must spend one point of Momentum, a resource which represents the Maestro’s control of the battlefield. When you first roll Initiative, you have no Momentum-- however, each time you take the Attack action, Dodge action, or use one of your Forms, you gain one point of Momentum. If, at the end of each turn, there are no enemies present, you lose one point of Momentum, to a minimum of zero.

If you are not currently involved in combat, you may instead initiate a maneuver at any point after 12 seconds of stretching and meditation.

Maneuver Level: Like spells, maneuvers are graded by level. The highest level maneuver you can learn is shown on the table above.

Maneuvers Known: At first level, you know two maneuvers of your choice from the schools available to you. The Maneuvers Known column of the Martial Adept table shows when you learn more maneuvers of your choice. Each of these maneuvers must be of a level you can use, as shown in the Highest Level Maneuver column.

Additionally, when you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the maneuvers you know with another from the schools available to you, which also much be of a level you can use.

Initiating Ability: Some maneuvers require the target to make a saving throw to resist their effects. The saving throw DC is calculated as followers:
Maneuver save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice)

Stances: The Sublime Way involves more than just strikes. Practitioners also learn Stances, a special type of maneuver that represents an distinct, whole-body style of combat. Unlike other maneuvers, stances may be initiated without expending Momentum. Once you have assumed a stance, you may maintain it as long as you wish.

If you are damaged while maintaining a stance, or subject to forced movement, you must make a Constitution save as though concentrating on a spell. If you fail, the stance ends, though you may resume it on your next turn. Stances automatically end if you are restrained or incapacitated.


Sublime Path: There are many different paths to understanding the Sublime Way. At 2nd level, select one of three paths to follow: the Path of the Crusader, Path of the Swordsage, or Path of the Warblade. Your Path determines what schools of maneuver you can learn, and grants additional abilities 6th, 10th, and 14th level.

Following Blow: Beginning at 7th level, after using a Form, you may make a weapon attack as a bonus action.

Mastery Maneuvers: Maneuvers of 6th level and higher—known as Mastery Maneuvers-- are particularly taxing to initiate. At 11th level, you gain the ability to learn and perform Mastery Maneuvers. Regardless of how much Momentum you have accumulated, after performing a Mastery Maneuver you cannot use another until you have completed a short rest.

Maneuvers of 5th level and lower initiated using a slot of 6th level of higher are not Mastery Maneuvers, and are not affected by this limit. Stances are also not Mastery Maneuvers, regardless of their level.

Instant Momentum: Beginning at 18th level, you gain Momentum when you roll Initiative—one point for a result of less than ten, two points for a result of eleven through twenty, and three points if your Initiative roll is higher than twenty.

Double Stance: Beginning at 20th level, you may concentrate on two stances simultaneously. You only make one concentration save for both effects; if you fail, both effects end.


Sublime Paths
The Sublime Way is a journey with no end, and an infinite number of paths. The following three options represent the most common approaches.


Path of the Crusader
Advanced Training: Beginning at 3rd level, you can learn maneuvers from the Devoted Spirit school.

Enduring Crusade: Beginning at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in heavy armor. In addition, your hit point maximum increases by 3, and again by 1 whenever you gain a new level in this class.

Steely Resolve: Beginning at 6th level, when you take hit point damage, you may use your reaction to gain temporary hit points equal to the amount of damage you just took plus your Charisma modifier. These hit points expire at the end of your next turn.

Enduring Will: Beginning at 10th level, you gain proficiency in Wisdom saves.

Furious Counterstroke: Beginning at 14th level, you gain a bonus to weapon damage equal to one-fifth your temporary hit points from your Steely Resolve feature.


Path of the Swordsage
Advanced Training: Swordsages can learn forms and maneuvers from the Desert Wind and Shadow Hand schools.

Discipline Focus: Beginning at 2nd level, pick one of the five disciplines that Swordsages can learn maneuvers from. You learn one maneuver from that school. At 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level, you learn one additional maneuver from your chosen school. These maneuvers don’t count against your number of maneuvers known.

Quick to Act: Beginning at 6th level, you gain a bonus to initiative checks equal to your Wisdom modifier.

Untouchable: Beginning at 10th level, you gain proficiency in Dexterity saves.

Evasion: Beginning at 14th level, you gain Evasion, as the Rogue class feature


Path of the Warblade
Advanced Training: Beginning at 3rd level, you can learn forms and maneuvers from the Iron Heart school.

Fighting Style: Beginning at 2nd level, you gain one of the following Fighting Styles: Defense, Dueling, Mariner, Protection, Two-Weapon Fighting.

Battle Cunning: Beginning at 6th level, when you make a weapon attack with advantage, you gain a bonus to the damage equal to your Intelligence modifier.

Keen Mind: Beginning at 10th level, you gain proficiency in Intelligence saves.

Battle Ardor: Beginning at 14th level, you gain immunity to being charmed or frightened.


Crystalline Perfection
Diamond Mind Form
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You close your mind to all distractions. Make a weapon attack, ignoring all sources of advantage and disadvantage. If it hits, it deals damage as normal.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Discordant Strike
Diamond Mind Form
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike at the perfect moment to disrupt your foe’s rhythm. Make a weapon attack. If it hits, it deals damage as normal, and the next attack against the target has advantage.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Moment of Perfect Mind
1st level Diamond Mind
Action: 1 reaction
Duration: 1 round

Your mental focus and martial study have rendered your will into an unbreakable iron wall. Until the start of your next turn, you have a +5 bonus to Wisdom saving throws.

At 5th level, and every subsequent four levels, the bonus lasts for one additional round.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade
1st level Diamond Mind
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

Your study your enemy for a brief moment, watching his defensive maneuvers and making a strike timed to take advantage of a lull in his vigilance. Make a weapon attack. If it hits, you deal damage as though you had rolled the highest possible result on your weapon damage dice. Non-weapon damage dice, such as those granted by Sneak Attack or a spell like Hex, are not affected.

At 3rd level, and every subsequent odd-numbered level, you may roll one additional weapon damage die. These dice are not maximized.

Stance of Clarity
1st level Diamond Mind (Stance)
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Concentration

You focus your efforts on a single opponent, studying his moves and preparing an attack. Your other opponents fade from sight as your mind locks onto your target. When you assume this stance, or as a bonus action while maintaining it, designate one opponent you can see. They have disadvantage on attacks against you, but all other attackers have advantage on attacks against you.

Action Before Thought
2nd level Diamond Mind
Action: 1 reaction
Duration: Instantaneous

Your supreme sense of the battlefield, unmatched martial training, and simple, intuitive sense of danger allow you to act faster than the speed of thought. When a spell or other attack strikes you, you move a split second before you are even aware of the threat. You may move 5ft before the triggering event takes place. If this carries you out of range, the attack or spell fails.

At 5th level, and every subsequent odd-numbered level, you may move an additional 5ft.

Emerald Razor
2nd level Diamond Mind
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You stare at your enemy, studying his every move. You mentally probe his defenses in search of a weakness. A lesser warrior could spent long minutes pondering this problem, but you see an opening and seize upon it in an instant. One target within your reach must make a Dexterity saving throw. If they fail, they take damage as though struck by your weapon, plus an additional 2d6 damage of the same type. If they succeed, they take half this damage.

At 3rd level, and every subsequent odd-numbered level, the damage increases by 1d6.

Insightful Strike
3rd level Diamond Mind
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You study your opponent and spot a weak point in her armor. With a quick, decisive strike, you take advantage of this weakness with a devastating attack. Make a weapon attack. On a hit, you deal 10d6 force damage in place of your normal weapon damage.

At 7th level, and every subsequent odd-numbered level, this damage increases by 1d6.

Mind Over Body
3rd level Diamond Mind
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

Your training and mental toughness allow you to use your focus to overcome physical threats. By focusing your mind, you ignore the effect of a deadly poison or debilitating sickness. You may initiate this maneuver as a reaction after failing a Strength or Constitution save to succeed instead. If there would normally be a partial effect on a successful save, you are unaffected.

Pearl of Black Doubt
3rd level Diamond Mind (Stance)
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Concentration

With every miss, your opponents become more uncertain, their doubt growing like an irritating pearl in the mouth of a helpless oyster. When an opponent misses you with a melee attack, you gain a +1 bonus to AC until the beginning of your next turn. Every time a new opponent misses you, this bonus increases by 1, to a maximum of your Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher)

Bounding Assault
4th level Diamond Mind
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You spring across the battlefield, using your focus and ability to act quickly to make an attack while moving. You may move up to 100ft without provoking attacks of opportunity and make a melee weapon attack with advantage. If you hit, you deal two points of additional damage for every 10ft you have moved since the start of your turn.

Mind Strike
4th level Diamond Mind
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike your opponent's head, rattling his senses and causing him to lose focus. Make a weapon attack. On a hit, the target is stunned for 2 rounds, and suffers disadvantage on Wisdom checks and saves for one minute.

Disrupting Blow
5th level Diamond Mind Maneuver
Action: 1 reaction
Duration: Instantaneous

With a combination of brute force, keen timing, and exacting aim, you force your opponent into an awkward position that ruins his next action. On a hit, the target cannot take actions, bonus actions, or reactions for one minute. At the end of each round, it may attempt a Constitution save. A successful save ends this effect.

Hearing the Air
5th level Diamond Mind (Stance)
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Concentration

Your perception becomes so fine that you can hear the tiniest flutter of air moving past you. Invisible foes and other hidden threats become as plain as day in the area of your heightened senses. You gain blindsight to a distance of 30ft.

Rapid Counter
5th level Diamond Mind Maneuver
Action: 1 reaction
Duration: Instantaneous

You lash out, your weapon a blur, hammering at the slightest gap that appears in your foe's defenses. You may activate this maneuver as a reaction when a foe moves out of one of your threatened squares to make a melee attack against that foe. Until the beginning of your next turn, you may continue to make melee attacks against any foe who moves out of one of your threatened squares without using your reaction. If a foe continues to move within your reach, you may continue to make attacks against them until they either leave your reach or stop moving.

At 9th level, opportunity attacks triggered using this maneuver deal +1 damage. This bonus increases by 1 at 11th level, and again at every subsequent odd-numbered level.

Moment of Alacrity
6th level Diamond Mind Maneuver (Mastery)
Action: 1 reaction
Duration: Instantaneous

You step into a space between heartbeats and act again while your enemies are still reacting to your last strike. You may immediately take an action.

Avalanche of Blades
7th level Diamond Mind Maneuver (Mastery)
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

In a flashing blur of steel, you unleash a devastating volley of deadly attacks against your enemy, striking it again and again. You may make five melee weapon attacks. For every strike that hits, subsequent attacks deal +1d6 damage of the same type as your weapon.

At 15th level, and every subsequent odd-numbered level, you may make one additional attack.

Quicksilver Motion
7th level Diamond Mind Maneuver (Mastery)
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Instantaneous

In the blink of an eye, you make your move. Your speed, reflexes, and boundless confidence combine to allow you to make a fast, bold move that catches your foes off guard. You may move up to 30ft without provoking opportunity attacks and use a Form, with advantage on any attack rolls you might be required to make.

Diamond Defense
8th level Diamond Mind Maneuver (Mastery)
Action: 1 reaction
Duration: Instantaneous

You steel yourself against an opponent’s spell, drawing on your focus and training to overcome its effect. Until the beginning of your next turn, the creature cannot harm you with any ability, directly or indirectly—attacks, spells, grabs, and other efforts either miss or are endured with no ill effect.

Diamond Nightmare Blade
8th level Diamond Mind Maneuver (Mastery)
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You spot a single fatal flaw in your opponent’s defenses. With a single attack, you put all the force of your supreme focus into a single, crippling blow. Make a melee weapon attack. On a hit, the target must make a Constitution save or die. On a successful save, they suffer the normal effects of your weapon attack, plus an additional 10d10 force damage.

Stance of Alacrity
8th level Diamond Mind Maneuver (Stance)
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Concentration
Your mind and body meld, granting you an edge in combat. You move slightly faster than normal due to a combination of confidence, training, and clarity of mind. This slight edge adds up with each action. You may take two reactions each round.

Time Stands Still
9th level Diamond Mind Maneuver (Mastery)
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Instantaneous

The raindrops themselves stand still as you act at the speed of thought. You move like a blur, catching your enemies by surprise with a complex action carried out in a tiny fraction of the time normally needed to complete it. At the end of your turn, you may take two additional turns, during which you can use actions and move as normal.



Flowing Defense
Setting Sun Form
Action: 1 action
Duration: 1 round

You flow from blow to parry in a smooth movement. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, the next attack against you has disadvantage.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon to each target. This damage increases by 1d8 at 11th and 17th level.

Rounding Kata
Setting Sun Form
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You step and strike, step and strike in a perfect rhythm. Make a melee weapon attack. If it hits, you may move 5ft without provoking opportunity attacks, and your target is moved 5ft in a direction of your choice.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 damage of the same type as your weapon, and the distances increase by 5ft. This damage increases by 1d8 and distances by another 5ft at 11th and 17th level.

Counter Charge
1st level Setting Sun Maneuver
Action: 1 reaction
Duration: Instantaneous

With a quick sidestep, you send a charging opponent sprawling. When a creature moves at least 20ft and ends their movement adjacent to you, you may force them to make a Strength or Dexterity save (your choice). If they fail, they are knocked prone.

Mighty Throw
1st level Setting Sun Maneuver
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You use superior leverage and your Setting Sun training to send an opponent tumbling to the ground. One adjacent creature must make a Strength or Dexterity save (your choice). If they fail, they are pushed 10ft and knocked prone.

At 3rd level, and every subsequent odd-numbered level, the distance you throw your foe increases by 5ft.

Step of the Wind
1st level Setting Sun Maneuver (Stance)
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Concentration

You walk across rubble and other broken terrain with deceptive ease, allowing you to take advantage of your opponents as they struggle to move at full speed. While in this stance, you can ignore difficult terrain.

Baffling Defense
2nd level Setting Sun Maneuver
Action: 1 reaction
Duration: Instantaneous

You crouch balanced on one foot, hands held high over your head. Your foe hesitates, unsure of how to attack you in this unlikely stance. Until the end of your next turn, opponents must succeed on an Insight check with a DC equal to your spell save DC in order to attack you. If they fail their save, their action is wasted.

Clever Positioning
2nd level Setting Sun Maneuver
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

With a swift flurry of motion, you knock you foe off balance, slip into his space, and force him into the spot you just occupied. Make a melee weapon attack. On a hit, the target suffers an additional 3d6 damage of the same type as your weapon, and you may swap places with them. If the target is Large or larger, you can occupy any of the squares that make up its space. The target must in turn occupy the square, or one of the squares, you previously occupied.

At 5th level, and every subsequent odd-numbered level, the damage increases by 1d6.

Devastating Throw
3rd level Setting Sun Maneuver
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

Seizing your foe by the arm, you spin in a quick half-circle and hurl him headlong away from you. This maneuver functions as Mighty Throw, with the following exceptions. You must move at least 15ft before initiating this maneuver, but if you do, the target is pushed 20ft, knocked prone, and suffers 4d6 bludgeoning damage. Any creatures in its path must make Dexterity saves themselves or suffer 1d6 bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone.

At 7th level, and every subsequent odd-numbered level, the distance you throw your foe increases by 5ft, and both initial and secondary targets suffer an additional 1d6 bludgeoning damage.

Feigned Opening
3rd level Setting Sun Maneuver
Action: 1 reaction
Duration: Instantaneous

You show your opponent a seemingly fatal mistake in your defenses, but easily avoid the ensuing attack and simultaneously draw your foe into overextending. As she fights to regain her balance, you make a swift counterattack. When you are attacked in melee, you may impose disadvantage on the attack roll. If it misses, you and all allies who are within reach of your attacker may make an opportunity attack against them without using their reaction for the round.

Giant Killing Style
3rd level Setting Sun Maneuver (Stance)
Action: 1 action
Duration: Concentration

You dart between a giant's legs, lashing at his inner ankles and other vulnerable areas while staying inside his reach where he cannot hope to parry your attacks. While in this stance, you can share a space with a larger opponent. While doing so, their attacks against you have disadvantage, yours have advantage, and your attacks deal an additional 2d6 damage of the same type as your weapon.

Strike of the Broken Shield
4th level Setting Sun Maneuver
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You study your opponent and deliver an attack precisely aimed to ruin his defenses and force him to scramble for his balance. While he struggles to ready himself, he becomes more vulnerable to your attacks. Make a melee weapon attack. On a hit, the target takes an additional 4d6 damage of the same type as your weapon and suffers a -5 penalty to AC for one minute.

At 11th level, and again at every fourth level, this penalty increases by 1.

Mirrored Pursuit
5th level Setting Sun Maneuver
Action: 1 reaction
Duration: 1 minute

Your movements perfectly match your foe's, allowing you to move as she does. Try as she might to escape, you remain at her side. When an adjacent foe moves, you can activate this maneuver. For one minute, you can choose to match them step for step, remaining adjacent to them no matter how fast or far they move. Even if the target uses a form of movement you are not capable of—even if they teleport—you can follow, dangling from a flying enemy or grabbing a teleporting one to be pulled along.

Shifting Defense
5th level Setting Sun Maneuver (Stance)
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Concentration

You duck and move as you dodge your opponent's attacks. Slowly but surely, each attack gives you the opportunity to move across the battlefield. Whenever an opponent attacks you and misses, you may move 5ft without provoking opportunity attacks or using your reaction.

At 13th level, and again at 19th level, this distance increases by 5ft.

Scorpion Parry
6th level Setting Sun Maneuver (Mastery)
Action: 1 reaction
Duration: One round

You knock your opponent's attack aside, guiding his weapon into one of his allies. Until the end of your next turn, any time you are targeted by an attack or an effect targeting a single creature, you may designate a new target within the attacker’s range. If you select one of your attacker’s allies, they gain advantage on the attack roll they didn’t want to make. You may also designate empty space as a target, causing the attack to simply miss.

Hydra Slaying Strike
7th level Setting Sun Maneuver (Mastery)
Action: 1 action
Duration: 1 minute

You take stock of an opponent's fighting style and make a single, carefully aimed attack that leaves the creature unable to make all of its attacks. Make a weapon attack. On a hit, the target cannot take the Multiattack action for one minute, nor can they benefit from any other ability or effect that would allow them to make more than a single attack as part of the same action.

Ghostly Defense
6th level Setting Sun Maneuver (Stance)
Action: 1 bonus reaction
Duration: Concentration

You lurk within concealing mist, luring your opponent into attacking you, only to dodge out of the way and direct your enemy's blow at an unwitting ally. While in this stance, whenever a foe has disadvantage on an attack against you, they must roll one additional d20 and take the worst result of all three dice rolled.

Tornado Throw
9th level Setting Sun Maneuver (Mastery)
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instant

Like a whirlwind, you twist and spin across the battlefield, tossing foes away left and right. As part of this maneuver, you may move up to 100ft without provoking opportunity attacks. Any time you move adjacent to a creature, you may force them to make a Strength or Dexterity save (your choice). On a failure, they are thrown up to 50ft, knocked prone, and suffer 25 bludgeoning damage. Any creatures in their path must make Dexterity saves themselves or suffer 25 bludgeoning damage and be knocked prone.

You may target the same creature multiple times with this maneuver, whether or not you have already succeeded at throwing them, so long as you move at least 10ft between attempts.



Landslide Tackle
Stone Dragon Form
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You strike you foe with the full weight of your body. Make a melee weapon attack using your unarmed strike. For the purposes of this attack, it counts as having a damage die of 1d8, unless it would otherwise be higher. If you hit, the target is pushed 10ft.

At 5th level, the attack deals an additional 1d8 bludgeoning damage, and pushes your target an additional 5ft. This damage increases by 1d8 and the distance by 5ft at 11th and 17th level.

Strength of Stone
Stone Dragon Form
Action: 1 action
Duration: 1 round

You channel the unyielding strength of the mountains. Until the end of your next turn, you have resistance to all damage.

Charging Minotaur
1st level Stone Dragon Maneuver
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You charge at your foe, blasting him with such power that he stumbles back. As part of the maneuver, move up to your speed without provoking opportunity attacks and make a melee weapon attack. On a hit, you can push the target 10ft away from you. If this movement would carry it into a solid object, it takes 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage for every 5ft of remaining distance.

At 3rd level, and again at every subsequent odd level, the distance increases by 10ft.

Stone Bones
1st level Stone Dragon Maneuver
Action: 1 action
Duration: 1 round

You focus your energy to enhance your defenses, drawing on the power of your weapon's impact with a foe to toughen yourself against a counterattack. Make a melee weapon attack. On a hit, you gain resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage until the end of your next turn.

At 3rd level, and again at every odd level, the duration of the resistance of this maneuver increases by 1 round.

Stonefoot Stance
1st level Stone Dragon Maneuver (Stance)
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Concentration

You crouch and set your feet flat on the ground, drawing the resilience of the earth into your body. You gain advantage on Strength ability checks and saving throws. This stance immediately ends if you move more than 5ft for any reason.

Mountain Hammer
2nd level Stone Dragon Maneuver
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

Like a falling avalanche, you strike with the weight and fury of the mountain. Make a melee weapon attack. On a hit, you deal an additional 4d12 damage of the same type as your weapon.

This maneuver is especially effective on objects. When attempting to smash something, you have advantage on the attack roll, and both weapon and bonus damage ignore resistances and immunities. Mountain Hammer attacks always count as an appropriate tool for damaging objects.

At 5th level, and again at every subsequent odd level, the damage increases by 1d12.

Stone Vise
2nd level Stone Dragon Maneuver
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You make a crushing blow that staggers your opponent, leaving it unable to move. Make a melee weapon attack. On a hit, the target is restrained. At the end of each of its turns, it may attempt a Constitution save. A successful save ends the effect.

Bonecrusher
3rd level Stone Dragon Maneuver
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You deliver your attack, and your enemy's eyes jerk wide open in panic as his skeleton begins to fracture in hundreds of places. Make a melee weapon attack. On a hit, you deal an additional 4d6 damage, and the target’s hit point maximum is reduced by the amount of damage it just took.

At 7th level, and again at every subsequent odd level, the damage increases by 2d6.

Crushing Weight of the Mountain
3rd level Stone Dragon Maneuver (Stance)
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Concentration

You crush your opponent beneath you, squeezing the life out of him as you pin him to the ground. While in this stance, you can attempt to grapple foes of any size, and you have advantage on attempts to establish or maintain a grapple. While you have a foe grappled, you may use your action to deal them 3d6 + Strength bludgeoning damage.

Roots of the Mountain
3rd level Stone Dragon Maneuver (Stance)
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Concentration

You crouch and set your feet flat on the ground, rooting yourself to the spot you stand. Nothing can move you from this place. While in this stance, you cannot be forced to move by any effect, and you cannot be grappled or knocked prone. However, your speed is halved, and the stance immediately ends if your feet are not on solid ground at the end of your turn.

Bonesplitting Strike
4th level Stone Dragon Maneuver
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

Your attack slams home with a ferocious crack of shattered bones and pulped flesh. Your target reels backward, still alive but severely crippled. Make a melee weapon attack. On a hit, the target gains two levels of exhaustion.

Boulder Roll
4th level Stone Dragon Maneuver
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Instantaneous

Like a boulder tumbling down a mountain- side, you slam through your enemies. You may move up to your speed without provoking opportunity attacks. During this movement, you may move through squares occupied by enemies, knocking them prone in the process.

Giant’s Stance
5th level Stone Dragon Maneuver (Stance)
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Concentration

You swing your weapon in a wide, deadly arc that slams into your foe with incredible force. While in this stance, you deal an additional die of weapon damage with all attacks.

Mountain Avalanche
5th level Stone Dragon Maneuver
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You slam your weapon into the ground, causing shockwaves to radiate in every direction. All creatures touching the ground in a 30ft cone must make Dexterity saves or be knocked prone and take 5d12 bludgeoning damage. On a successful save, they take half damage and are not knocked down. Additionally, the ground in that area becomes difficult terrain until cleared away. Each 5-foot-square portion of the area requires at least 1 minute to clear by hand.

At 11th level, and again at every subsequent odd level, the damage increases by 1d12.

Iron Bones
6th level Stone Dragon Maneuver (Mastery)
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Instantaneous

As you make a successful attack, you enter a meditative state that leaves you almost invulnerable to harm. For a few brief moments, arrows bounce off your skin, and sword blows barely draw any blood. For one minute, you have resistance to all damage.

Irresistible Mountain Strike
6th level Stone Dragon Maneuver (Mastery)
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You slam your weapon into your foe with irresistible force. He can barely move as he struggles to marshal his defenses against you. Make a melee weapon attack. On a hit, you deal an additional 4d6 force damage, and the target is stunned for one minute. At the end of each of their turns, they may attempt a Constitution save. A successful save ends this effect.

Colossus Strike
7th level Stone Dragon Maneuver (Mastery)
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

Focusing your strength with a deep, rumbling shout, you execute an attack that sends your opponent flying through the air. All creatures in a 30ft cone take 6d12 force damage and must make Strength saves or be pushed 30ft and knocked prone. Prone creatures cannot attempt to stand during their next turn.

Adamantine Bones
8h level Stone Dragon Maneuver (Mastery)
Action: 1 bonus action
Duration: Instantaneous

You are an impenetrable tower of defiance on the battlefield. Attacking you is as fruitless as striking a mountain with a walking stick. For one minute, you gain immunity to bludgeoning, slashing, and piercing damage.

Earthquake Strike
8th level Stone Dragon Maneuver
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You swing your weapon in a wild arc, slamming it into the ground at your feet. Energy surges out from you, causing the ground to shudder with a sharp tremor. This maneuver functions as the Earthquake spell, save that it is centered on you. You are not affected by your own attack.

Mountain Tombstone Strike
9th level Stone Dragon Maneuver
Action: 1 action
Duration: Instantaneous

You slam into your foe, turning bones into dust and muscle into bloody pulp. Your foe's body is left a crippled, twisted mockery. Make a melee weapon attack. On a hit, the target takes an additional 12d12 force damage, and must make a Constitution save or die. Creatures killed by this maneuver have their bodies entirely destroyed.

OldTrees1
2020-07-03, 06:09 PM
This combines ToB, 5E Warlock, and 5E Eldritch Knight frameworks in a way that makes sense.

Some comments. How can we help?



Forms: At first level, select three Forms from the Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Stone Dragon, Tiger Claw, and White Raven school. These techniques are the building blocks of the Sublime Way, simple maneuvers that may be used as often as desired.

Nice. Reliable, more interesting combat options. Even people that dislike limited resources will get something from this.


Momentum: Maneuvers are devastatingly powerful, but they are also specific—practiced moves and techniques developed to take advantage of specific advantages of position and flaws in the target’s defenses. In order to use a maneuver, you must spend two points of Momentum.

Momentum represents the Maestro’s control of the battlefield. When you first roll Initiative, you have zero Momentum—however, each time you successfully damage one or more creatures with a Form, you gain one point of Momentum.
A compromise between at-will and encounter. Seems reasonable.
Good wording on when you gain momentum. I was worried TWF would be favored but you used the Form as the unit rather than the attack as the unit.
Edit:
Form, Form, Strike, Form, Form, Strike.
or Form, Form, Stance & Form, Form, Boost & Form.
This momentum system does a good job of limiting the number of leveled Maneuvers per encounter (and thus per short rest) based on encounter length. And it does so in a way that does not feel too intrusive. Especially since Forms also feel like Manuevers.


Reserve: -snip- By taking ten seconds to prepare, you may do so without spending Momentum. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier (a minimum of once). You regain all expended uses when you finish a short rest.
I am used to 6s increments. Was there a reason for 10s? Easy thing for people to houserule to match their time increments.
2 out of combat maneuvers per short rest seems like a severe downgrade since I use 1h short rests. I should check if there are useful out of combat stances, but for now I am mentally noting this means that Constitution instead of Str/Dex is the primary stat for what I want out of the class.


Following Blow: Beginning at 7th level, after using a Form, you may make a weapon attack as a bonus action.
This is intentionally limited to Forms. This gives an Extra Attack structure to the base attacks and a single attack structure to the Maneuvers. Wide vs Deep. Good design.


Mastery Maneuvers: Maneuvers of 6th level and higher—known as Mastery Maneuvers-- are particularly taxing to initiate. At 11th level, you gain the ability to learn and perform Mastery Maneuvers. Regardless of how much Momentum you have accumulated, after performing a Mastery Maneuver you cannot use another until you have completed a short rest.
I have not seen them yet but it sounds like a similar solution to a similar problem that the 5E Warlock found.
Edit: Yes, it is that kind of solution. It should work.


Maneuvers of 5th level and lower initiated using a slot of 6th level of higher are not Mastery Maneuvers, and are not affected by this limit.
Slot?
Edit: Since it is not expending a slot, there might exist a better word. But this wording is clear enough.


Example Maneuvers (Diamond Mind)
Crystalline Perfection
Discordant Strike
Diamond Mind Form

I am sold. Even if I only ever use Forms, the PC would be UP but more enjoyable.



Stance of Clarity
1st level Diamond Mind
Hearing the Air
5th level Diamond Mind
Stances exist and we see decent out of combat utility with durations. That helps the drawbacks of the Reserve out of combat mechanics.

Pex
2020-07-03, 06:45 PM
With maneuvers costing two momentum the earliest you can use one is round 3, and that's presuming you get to attack and hit the first two rounds. You then have to wait until round 5 to get a second one. Combats are generally over by then. For the most part you'll only get to use one maneuver per combat and better hope you don't miss or opponent makes his save. That does not sound fun. Take a page from monk and give ki calling it momentum so the player gets his fun using them. Different levels of maneuvers can have different costs. Cost = level to be simple or work with spellpoint system perhaps to get the proper math for taste. It's the equivalent of having readied maneuvers from 3E. Gaining momentum from Forms is fine. That's the "refresh" mechanic. Maybe get 1 point per hit at level 1, 2 points per hit at level 5, 3 points at level 11 etc., to mirror the extra die of damage.

Since a stance is a maneuver it does no good to do it in combat since that's round 3. You allow for doing it before combat, but it takes concentration. That could be a bother depending on what's happening outside of combat. In the example it only lasts an hour, so you need to refresh every hour since you don't always know when combat will happen. It's an annoyance to have to remember. That a stance has concentration is fine, but it shouldn't cost momentum so the character can do it when he needs it. Don't be afraid of at will powers.

If you give momentum points the 6th+ maneuvers can cost a bit more off scale to get the limit you feel is necessary. For example if you do momentum cost equals level, i.e. a 5th level maneuver costs 5 momentum, for 6th+ level do momentum cost = level + 2. Level 6 costs 8, level 7 costs 9 etc. Allow for the character to nova his big moves against the BBEG of the adventure arc combats.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-07-03, 07:40 PM
This combines ToB, 5E Warlock, and 5E Eldritch Knight frameworks in a way that makes sense.

Some comments. How can we help?
Thanks! Any thoughts, suggestions, or balance feedback would be wonderful.


I am used to 6s increments. Was there a reason for 10s? Easy thing for people to houserule to match their time increments.
Ehh... I think I'll just change it to "take a moment." There's not really a need to specify an exact time out of battle.


2 out of combat maneuvers per short rest seems like a severe downgrade since I use 1h short rests. I should check if there are useful out of combat stances, but for now I am mentally noting this means that Constitution instead of Str/Dex is the primary stat for what I want out of the class.
I mean, it's probably more like three, but...


Stances exist and we see decent out of combat utility with durations. That helps the drawbacks of the Reserve out of combat mechanics.
I'm not totally sold on the stance mechanics yet, especially in light of Pex's comments. Maybe pull them out and make them a rough parallel to Invocations? (I don't much care for the RAW Warlock, but it does offer a great template for homebrewing alternate casters).


With maneuvers costing two momentum the earliest you can use one is round 3, and that's presuming you get to attack and hit the first two rounds. You then have to wait until round 5 to get a second one. Combats are generally over by then. For the most part you'll only get to use one maneuver per combat and better hope you don't miss or opponent makes his save. That does not sound fun. Take a page from monk and give ki calling it momentum so the player gets his fun using them. Different levels of maneuvers can have different costs. Cost = level to be simple or work with spellpoint system perhaps to get the proper math for taste. It's the equivalent of having readied maneuvers from 3E. Gaining momentum from Forms is fine. That's the "refresh" mechanic. Maybe get 1 point per hit at level 1, 2 points per hit at level 5, 3 points at level 11 etc., to mirror the extra die of damage.

Since a stance is a maneuver it does no good to do it in combat since that's round 3. You allow for doing it before combat, but it takes concentration. That could be a bother depending on what's happening outside of combat. In the example it only lasts an hour, so you need to refresh every hour since you don't always know when combat will happen. It's an annoyance to have to remember. That a stance has concentration is fine, but it shouldn't cost momentum so the character can do it when he needs it. Don't be afraid of at will powers.

If you give momentum points the 6th+ maneuvers can cost a bit more off scale to get the limit you feel is necessary. For example if you do momentum cost equals level, i.e. a 5th level maneuver costs 5 momentum, for 6th+ level do momentum cost = level + 2. Level 6 costs 8, level 7 costs 9 etc. Allow for the character to nova his big moves against the BBEG of the adventure arc combats.
<Sigh> There's really no way to import the original mechanics-- 5e's power range is so much narrower there's not room for a full maneuver system. You wind up either dramatically weakening maneuvers to be usable at will, or impose some sort of resource limit and have complaints about "running out of sword." During my last attempt, I messed around with a lot of different not-spell point variants, and none of them managed to hit the itch in the right way.

I set Momentum up to work out roughly the same as the Warlock's casting, with an average of one full power spell per encounter. I could have you start with Momentum, move Instant Momentum up to 5th level or something, but... the Form-Form-Maneuver flow was intended to give you a different sort of flow than casters-- instead of opening the encounter with a big shot, you bat cleanup; instead of going nova, you get a similar sort of steady flow to other martials.

Dienekes
2020-07-03, 08:26 PM
Ehh... I think I'll just change it to "take a moment." There's not really a need to specify an exact time out of battle.


Might as well make it 12 seconds, the equivalent of two rounds trying to get into the flow in combat. Or if you go by my comments below the equivalent of spending two actions focusing on your perfect strike.



<Sigh> There's really no way to import the original mechanics-- 5e's power range is so much narrower there's not room for a full maneuver system. You wind up either dramatically weakening maneuvers to be usable at will, or impose some sort of resource limit and have complaints about "running out of sword." During my last attempt, I messed around with a lot of different not-spell point variants, and none of them managed to hit the itch in the right way.

I set Momentum up to work out roughly the same as the Warlock's casting, with an average of one full power spell per encounter. I could have you start with Momentum, move Instant Momentum up to 5th level or something, but... the Form-Form-Maneuver flow was intended to give you a different sort of flow than casters-- instead of opening the encounter with a big shot, you bat cleanup; instead of going nova, you get a similar sort of steady flow to other martials.

My worry is, there will likely be situations where as a frontliner you would be better served to do something other than one of the forms. Lets say you have to stop someone from running past so you grapple them. Currently that means you’re not getting momentum so you’re delaying your power burst.

Now you can get around this by making Grappling Fingers of Mr Touchy a Form, probably Setting Sun. But there are a few such situations beyond grappling but let’s say there’s a form for each of these common situations. That would make the Maestro incentivized to grab these over forms that are more interesting or flavorful. Which would make the effective Maestro all start to look quite similar to each other.

I think this issue can be fixed (if you consider it an issue you may think this is working as intended), if the means of gaining Momentum are opened up a bit. Successfully damaging an opponent could be one, grappling, shoving, perhaps disarming and overrunning if you’re using the optional rules. Honestly I can even see a argument to be made for Dodge as you can describe it as focusing on defense until you find an opening to get your perfect strike in. That might incentivize doing nothing too much though.

That little tweak I think would make playing one feel much less restrictive.

There is the minor quibble when basing things off the warlock. One spell per encounter is a good benchmark. But the ability to choose when to use that spell is power in itself. So unless I’m missing something the abilities of the Maestro should be stronger than the equivalent Warlock spell, which is kind of a high benchmark to hit.

All that said, I kind of love the system. Would you mind if I steal it for my own homebrew at some point?

Kane0
2020-07-03, 08:47 PM
Do we really need 9 levels? Can we make do with 5, as is often suggested for casting?

Pex
2020-07-03, 09:07 PM
I still recommend increase the number of momentum gained as the Forms increase the damage die. This allows at 5th level you could potentially do a maneuver every other round. At 11th level the first two rounds gives you 6 momentum letting you do maneuvers on rounds 3, 4, and 5, combat over. As you have it now missing your attack means you get no momentum which is a very big deal. You need to mitigate never getting to do anything because by the time you can the combat is over.

I just realized something. You reinvented the 3E variant Iron Kingdoms Token System. They use the word "token" where you use "momentum", but it's basically the same method. You accumulate tokens attacking then spend them to do a Special Attack.

Seclora
2020-07-03, 09:25 PM
I would just call it Maneuver Level, instead of Maneuver Max Level, I did actually have some confusion on the level scaling.

That aside, Momentum both feels like a fitting representation of a real world phenomenon, and also a fairly functional mechanic to limit the amount of quite powerful abilities you can use in each combat. It feels like it still needs a little streamlining, but I can't put my finger on how.


You've missed a Sublime Path feature at 10th level for all three paths. I suggest Wisdom to Dexterity Saves for Swordsage, Advantage on Saving throws while concentrating on a stance for Crusader, and the ability to gain one momentum as a bonus action a number of times equal to their Intelligence modifier per Long Rest for the Warblade.

I also think there should be a fluff feature or skill boost for every subclass, just for extra flavor.


I can't wait to see some of the other disciplines. White Raven and Iron Heart were always favorites back in 3.5, and seeing your interpretation of Diamond Mind, I can only imagine.

OldTrees1
2020-07-04, 01:20 AM
I'm not totally sold on the stance mechanics yet, especially in light of Pex's comments. Maybe pull them out and make them a rough parallel to Invocations? (I don't much care for the RAW Warlock, but it does offer a great template for homebrewing alternate casters).
The invocation framework could work too. Stances with out of combat uses existing at all eases a lot of out of combat concerns. Tying it to Concentration does make sense.


I set Momentum up to work out roughly the same as the Warlock's casting, with an average of one full power spell per encounter. I could have you start with Momentum, move Instant Momentum up to 5th level or something, but... the Form-Form-Maneuver flow was intended to give you a different sort of flow than casters-- instead of opening the encounter with a big shot, you bat cleanup; instead of going nova, you get a similar sort of steady flow to other martials.

I think the momentum mechanic has a lot of potential and there are plenty of balance levers for fine tuning.
Starting momentum like with Instant Momentum.
Scaling momentum costs / scaling momentum gains.
Have Forms grant momentum regardless of hit.
And some of those levers would be useful if someone makes an variant initiator with higher stamina but lower maneuver level.

Not to mention, this Martial Adept gets to use Maneuvers (Forms) to recharge their Maneuvers (leveled Maneuvers). So this feels better than Cantrip -> Cantrip -> Spell despite technicalities.

gloryblaze
2020-07-04, 03:46 AM
I dropped this (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/iVkZ0-4Gz) rough draft of a 5e Martial Adept in the Homebrew subforum topic on the subject. It’s likely very overpowered, and certainly a bit too finicky for 5e, so I do like the simpler chassis presented here. The reason I’m linking it is because I did a rough conversion of most, if not all, of the maneuvers and stances in ToB (some I collapsed into a single maneuver, considering the scaling used in my conversion made them redundant. For example, hatchling’s flame, dragon’s flame, and wyrm’s flame were condensed into a single scaling maneuver called dragon’s flame).

Feel free to strip mine for maneuver conversions y’all like and throw out the rest.

pragma
2020-07-04, 04:01 AM
This is a really cool start, and I particularly like the momentum mechanic. Some food for thought:

1. How do you respond to bag of rats? If a character can build momentum by doing damage to an enemy, they're going to be incentivized to carry around enemies. I'd fix it by allowing Reserve to be used at will.

2. Seems a bit MAD: you need STR/DEX (for attacks), CON (for reserve), and WIS/INT/CHA for Sublime Path benefits. I'd fix it by allowing Reserve to be used at will.

3. Forms seem fiddly to me. Rather than making melee cantrips, I would assign a passive benefit to each form (e.g.: while using the diamond mind form you ignore all sources of advantage and disadvantage when making melee attacks), and then give the Maestro momentum when she does damage with a melee attack. The maestro could earn an extra attack at level 5 in this variant to mitigate the risk of not building momentum. I'd probably throw in some other momentum building advantage at 11. You would be able to select a form at the start of each turn in order to change your passive bonus.

4. I think there's room to play around with the resource schedule. For instance, having maneuvers cost different amounts of momentum could force the Maestro to make decisions about whether to fire off a minor maneuver or save up for a bigger one. I'm also reminded that the Crusader had a semi-random selection of maneuvers, and while that's out of scope of this homebrew, a random suite of rotating powers could be a fun class chassis.

Kane0
2020-07-04, 04:57 AM
Maybe only generating momentum on a hit osnt desirable, since forms are generally once per turn and combat doesnt usually last longer than 5 or so rounds if you are unlucky with your attacks you might not even get a maneuver in.

OldTrees1
2020-07-04, 09:41 AM
I dropped this (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/iVkZ0-4Gz) rough draft of a 5e Martial Adept in the Homebrew subforum topic on the subject. It’s likely very overpowered, and certainly a bit too finicky for 5e, so I do like the simpler chassis presented here. The reason I’m linking it is because I did a rough conversion of most, if not all, of the maneuvers and stances in ToB (some I collapsed into a single maneuver, considering the scaling used in my conversion made them redundant. For example, hatchling’s flame, dragon’s flame, and wyrm’s flame were condensed into a single scaling maneuver called dragon’s flame).

Feel free to strip mine for maneuver conversions y’all like and throw out the rest.

The link takes me to a blank page. Does it require a login? Is it the right link? I ask because that is a lot of conversion work you could save.

Warwick
2020-07-04, 11:43 AM
Maybe only generating momentum on a hit osnt desirable, since forms are generally once per turn and combat doesnt usually last longer than 5 or so rounds if you are unlucky with your attacks you might not even get a maneuver in.

Maybe add more momentum triggers, e.g. being missed with a melee attack or allowing the Maestro to spend an action (or bonus action, or whatever) charging up momentum?

Grod_The_Giant
2020-07-04, 12:03 PM
Thanks for all the feedback, guys! :smallbiggrin:

On Momentum: Very good points about how "only when you hit with a form" is restrictive and unreliable. What about if we change it to "after using your action to use a Form, or taking the Attack or Dodge actions?" That opens up options a lot, and pretty much guarantees the swing-swing-MANEUVER framework.


Do we really need 9 levels? Can we make do with 5, as is often suggested for casting?
But then I wouldn't be paralleling spells, and that's half the point of this project :smalltongue:


You've missed a Sublime Path feature at 10th level for all three paths. I suggest Wisdom to Dexterity Saves for Swordsage, Advantage on Saving throws while concentrating on a stance for Crusader, and the ability to gain one momentum as a bonus action a number of times equal to their Intelligence modifier per Long Rest for the Warblade.

I also think there should be a fluff feature or skill boost for every subclass, just for extra flavor.
Whoops, thanks. Good idea.


The invocation framework could work too. Stances with out of combat uses existing at all eases a lot of out of combat concerns. Tying it to Concentration does make sense.
Yeah... an at-will Concentration mechanic could be kind of neat, actually. Get some of the feel without being nearly as significant a weakness...

<scribble scribble scribble>


I dropped this (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/iVkZ0-4Gz) rough draft of a 5e Martial Adept in the Homebrew subforum topic on the subject. It’s likely very overpowered, and certainly a bit too finicky for 5e, so I do like the simpler chassis presented here. The reason I’m linking it is because I did a rough conversion of most, if not all, of the maneuvers and stances in ToB (some I collapsed into a single maneuver, considering the scaling used in my conversion made them redundant. For example, hatchling’s flame, dragon’s flame, and wyrm’s flame were condensed into a single scaling maneuver called dragon’s flame).

Feel free to strip mine for maneuver conversions y’all like and throw out the rest.
Thanks! I'll take a look.


1. How do you respond to bag of rats? If a character can build momentum by doing damage to an enemy, they're going to be incentivized to carry around enemies.
By saying "no sane GM will let you get away with that?"


2. Seems a bit MAD: you need STR/DEX (for attacks), CON (for reserve), and WIS/INT/CHA for Sublime Path benefits. I'd fix it by allowing Reserve to be used at will.
Good point about the MAD... I'll have to think about at-will Reserve-- it might not even be answerable right now. It'll depend on how strong I wind up making non-combat maneuvers-- Ruby Nightmare Blade at will outside combat is fine, but stuff like the Devoted Spirit smack-a-guy-heal-an-ally could be abusable... unless I write them right. And Stances, but I think I am going to rebuild them as an Invocation-style mostly-at-will resource.


3. Forms seem fiddly to me. Rather than making melee cantrips, I would assign a passive benefit to each form (e.g.: while using the diamond mind form you ignore all sources of advantage and disadvantage when making melee attacks), and then give the Maestro momentum when she does damage with a melee attack. The maestro could earn an extra attack at level 5 in this variant to mitigate the risk of not building momentum. I'd probably throw in some other momentum building advantage at 11. You would be able to select a form at the start of each turn in order to change your passive bonus.
Eh. This is supposed to be for people who want a complex martial character. Fiddliness is a design goal :smalltongue:


4. I think there's room to play around with the resource schedule. For instance, having maneuvers cost different amounts of momentum could force the Maestro to make decisions about whether to fire off a minor maneuver or save up for a bigger one. I'm also reminded that the Crusader had a semi-random selection of maneuvers, and while that's out of scope of this homebrew, a random suite of rotating powers could be a fun class chassis.
I'll throw in a not-spell point variant for those who want it. (From last time, roughly 2/3 the points of a full caster, maneuver point costs as spell costs, and forms grant 1-4 points on success scaling with tier)

EDIT: Maybe a randomizing version for the Crusader too, just for the hell of it. Shouldn't be that hard (though it might be weird)

Pex
2020-07-04, 12:40 PM
Maybe add more momentum triggers, e.g. being missed with a melee attack or allowing the Maestro to spend an action (or bonus action, or whatever) charging up momentum?

Definitely a bonus action, not action. Spending a round doing basically nothing is too unfun and detrimental.

If we allow a bonus action to generate momentum then maneuvers should cost different amounts to avoid spamming the most powerful maneuvers. This can still work with my bias increasing the amount of momentum gained in both the Form hit and this bonus action. This bonus action momentum only lasts until end of turn. The idea is at level 1 combat round 1 hit with Form. Round 2 bonus action you can now afford to use a maneuver. At level 5 with a bonus action giving 2 momentum you can spam 1st level maneuvers, but you aren't gaining momentum to use higher level ones. You have incentive to attack with a Form if you want to use higher level maneuvers.

In this case momentum cost = maneuver level won't work because you don't want spamming 2nd level maneuvers at this point. Say momentum cost = maneuver level + 1, so you still have the base two cost for 1st level maneuvers. Levels 6+ is maneuver level + 2. With this method at level 5 you can spam 1st level maneuvers every round with a bonus action, Attack with Form then next round bonus action to spam 2nd level maneuvers every other round. Higher level maneuvers take the time to build up. At level 11 you get 3 momentum from Form and Bonus Action. That spams 2nd level maneuvers every round and 5th level maneuvers every other round.

Hmm. Momentum cost = Maneuver level +1 doesn't work here if you think that's too powerful. Solution is to adjust the cost. I'm ok with spamming 2nd level maneuvers every round and 3rd level maneuvers every other round at level 11. Perhaps momentum cost = 2 times maneuver level works. Reminder you get 1 momentum per hit at level 1, bonus action gets 1 momentum, and increase both by one when you get another die of damage from Forms at levels 5, 11, 17. First level maneuvers still cost two. You're still spamming 1st level maneuvers every round at level 5 and 2nd levels maneuvers every other round. At level 11 you're not spamming 2nd level maneuvers though, but I think that should happen.

Alright so this means there isn't an easy formula for momentum cost per maneuver level, so go with arbitrary cost. I'd want the math to work so that at level 1 spam 1st level maneuvers every other round with bonus action and hit with Form. Level 5 spam 1st level maneuvers every round with bonus action, 2nd level maneuvers every other round with bonus action and Form hit. Level 11 spam 2nd level maneuvers every round with bonus action, 3rd level maneuvers every other round with bonus action and Form hit. Level 17 spam 3rd level maneuvers every round with bonus action, 4th level maneuvers every other round with bonus action and Form hit.

The point of the spamming is to use them in the less important fights. It's the equivalent of where spellcasters are only using Cantrips and at the higher levels only using low level spells. The maneuvers are effective, but you don't need the big guns and you still have fun using maneuvers. For the combats against the Lieutenants and BBEGS spamming might work, but you really need those high level maneuvers so you want to spend time gaining momentum.

DeadMech
2020-07-04, 01:48 PM
I dropped this (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/iVkZ0-4Gz) rough draft of a 5e Martial Adept in the Homebrew subforum topic on the subject. It’s likely very overpowered, and certainly a bit too finicky for 5e, so I do like the simpler chassis presented here. The reason I’m linking it is because I did a rough conversion of most, if not all, of the maneuvers and stances in ToB (some I collapsed into a single maneuver, considering the scaling used in my conversion made them redundant. For example, hatchling’s flame, dragon’s flame, and wyrm’s flame were condensed into a single scaling maneuver called dragon’s flame).

Feel free to strip mine for maneuver conversions y’all like and throw out the rest.

I only recently learned that homebrewery links only wok if you disable ad block. Might be something to warn people when posting links to them.

Other than that. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It's a surprisingly faithful update considering it still insists on trying to crowbar all three ToB classes into a single base class. And a faithful port of crusader has been all I wanted from 5e since someone first invited me to play 5e. Every other attempt at homebrewing one I've seen hasn't even bothered to try preserve it's identity with it's randomized refresh mechanic. It's not just a quirky gameplay mechanic it's the heart of soul of the class.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-07-04, 02:39 PM
Updated with revised rules for momentum, out of combat maneuvers, a few more Diamond Mind maneuvers, and updated stances! They're now at-will concentration effects, which sounds a little weird but should feel "right" in play. I've decided to keep them integrated with other maneuvers, though, for simplicity and cleanness.

gloryblaze
2020-07-04, 04:33 PM
The link takes me to a blank page. Does it require a login? Is it the right link? I ask because that is a lot of conversion work you could save.


I only recently learned that homebrewery links only wok if you disable ad block. Might be something to warn people when posting links to them.

Other than that. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. It's a surprisingly faithful update considering it still insists on trying to crowbar all three ToB classes into a single base class. And a faithful port of crusader has been all I wanted from 5e since someone first invited me to play 5e. Every other attempt at homebrewing one I've seen hasn't even bothered to try preserve it's identity with it's randomized refresh mechanic. It's not just a quirky gameplay mechanic it's the heart of soul of the class.

I also didn't actually know that about Homebrewery links, so thanks for the heads up! Could that be the issue, OldTrees?

heavyfuel
2020-07-04, 04:45 PM
I quite like this.

Some things I'm against though:

You should be able to start with some Momentum. Maybe not at Lv 1, but depending on the subclass. Crusaders start with momentum equal to their Cha mod, Swordsages with their Wis mod, and Warblades with Int mod.

I'm strongly against the Following Blow feature. A pseudo extra attack steps too hard on the toes of the current martial classes. This class should be focused on a single attack each round, and DPR should be based off maneuvers, not additional attacks. Just remove the feature. The reward for getting to 7th level should just be 4th level maneuvers.

Swordsages should, eventually, get Dex save proficiency, otherwise Evasion doesn't mean much. They should also gain a single extra skill proficiency. I'd say both of these things are more iconic to the class than the Quick to Act feature.

Also, Crusaders and Warblades should eventually gain proficiency in Cha and Int saves respectively. Maybe give each class its save proficiency at 14th

Kane0
2020-07-04, 08:05 PM
I'm strongly against the Following Blow feature. A pseudo extra attack steps too hard on the toes of the current martial classes. This class should be focused on a single attack each round, and DPR should be based off maneuvers, not additional attacks. Just remove the feature. The reward for getting to 7th level should just be 4th level maneuvers.


Even Rogues get a chance to deal Sneak attack more than once per round, why limit yourself to one attack like that?

heavyfuel
2020-07-04, 08:43 PM
Even Rogues get a chance to deal Sneak attack more than once per round, why limit yourself to one attack like that?

I don't see the relation between these two things. What does the Rogue's SA have to do with any of this?

Getting your SA a 2nd time per round is an exception that happens if your opponent triggers an OA from you. It's not something you decide.

At any rate, I think this ability is too strong. For one, there's no need to further reward odd levels. New maneveuver level is plenty reward. Second, it's stronger than TWF, and doesn't require the investment of a Fighting Style. And third, I don't think it fits the flavor of Martial Initiators famous for making one attack per round (with the exception of maneuvers that might allow extra attacks).

This ability feels like it was put there as a way to help build Momentum, but Momentum - as presented in the OP - is the bad kind of broken, and this ability doesn't fix it.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-07-04, 08:59 PM
You should be able to start with some Momentum. Maybe not at Lv 1, but depending on the subclass. Crusaders start with momentum equal to their Cha mod, Swordsages with their Wis mod, and Warblades with Int mod.
That's so much Momentum-- it's not spell points, remember, it's 2 points for a max level maneuver. The reason the mechanic exists as it does is to strike a balance between the 3.5 and 5e paradigms. It makes maneuvers sort of at-will, gives you the feeling that you can keep using them at full power all day long, but in practical terms it means that you're throwing around the same number of maneuvers as a Warlock does spell slots-- and thus, balances, while also suggesting a type of encounter the Maestro is uniquely suited for.


I'm strongly against the Following Blow feature. A pseudo extra attack steps too hard on the toes of the current martial classes. This class should be focused on a single attack each round, and DPR should be based off maneuvers, not additional attacks. Just remove the feature. The reward for getting to 7th level should just be 4th level maneuvers.
Hmm... yeah, that's a fair point. With a full five Forms by that level, you should be getting a helpful rider every turn.


Swordsages should, eventually, get Dex save proficiency, otherwise Evasion doesn't mean much. They should also gain a single extra skill proficiency. I'd say both of these things are more iconic to the class than the Quick to Act feature.

Also, Crusaders and Warblades should eventually gain proficiency in Cha and Int saves respectively. Maybe give each class its save proficiency at 14th
Saves, absolutely-- especially for the Swordsage, as you noted (I'm embarrassed I missed that).


This ability feels like it was put there as a way to help build Momentum, but Momentum - as presented in the OP - is the bad kind of broken, and this ability doesn't fix it.
It does nothing to build Momentum-- that's triggered by the action, not the individual attack(s). Can you clarify a little more why you think Momentum as it currently stands is the bad kind of broken?

OldTrees1
2020-07-04, 09:01 PM
I also didn't actually know that about Homebrewery links, so thanks for the heads up! Could that be the issue, OldTrees?

Confirmed, the link works when I pause adblock. Lots of good conversion work. Thank you.

heavyfuel
2020-07-04, 10:45 PM
That's so much Momentum-- it's not spell points, remember, it's 2 points for a max level maneuver. The reason the mechanic exists as it does is to strike a balance between the 3.5 and 5e paradigms. It makes maneuvers sort of at-will, gives you the feeling that you can keep using them at full power all day long, but in practical terms it means that you're throwing around the same number of maneuvers as a Warlock does spell slots-- and thus, balances, while also suggesting a type of encounter the Maestro is uniquely suited for.
It does nothing to build Momentum-- that's triggered by the action, not the individual attack(s). Can you clarify a little more why you think Momentum as it currently stands is the bad kind of broken?

Tbh, I misread the Momentum ability and thought you gained momentum when attacking someone, not through the attack action. Which is worse than I thought.

Starting to use maneuvers at round 3 means your maneuvers are useless most combats since they are tougher at the start. By round 3 you're probably either finishing up the bigger threat or already dealing with stragglers.

Casters getting to bring out their big guns from the get go is part of why they're powerful. Big guns reduce the opposing side's action economy, which is paramount in combat.

I think that 2 maneuvers per combat is a decent goal, but it only works if the maneuvers actually affect combat, ie., if they happen early.

Giving 2 momentum at initiative allows a Maneuver from the get go, and then they have to actually build momentum, although it should be easier to do so.

Maybe make maneuvers cost 3 momentum, but you start with 3 and each action grants you 2?

Yakk
2020-07-04, 11:33 PM
This is 5e; more dice less points.

Stealing something from psi, what if they have a dice pool, and you generate momentum from specific rolls of dice?

Imagine having a pool of mastery dice based on class level. You can expend one to boost damage on an attack. If you roll a 1, or a 6, or an odd value, it becomes momentum (not sure which is best).

You then expend momentum to fuel maneuvers.

The mastery pool could be hard to refresh, representing a short rest limit. Or it could be evergreen, ir just a die.

Like, you have a 1d4 mastery die, which fuels forms.

Whenever it lands on an odd value, you gain that much momentum.

At higher levels you get a larger mastery die. This gives you a chance to have more momentum (as d12 can roll up to an 11).

1d4 level 1-2
1d6 level 3-4
1d8 level 5-6
1d10 level 7-8
1d12 level 9-10
then at level 11+ you start learning ultimate techniques that are once/long rest.

Maybe rolling your die costs you your momentum. Or maybe you get the max, not the sum.

So getting 2 rolls/round makes it far more likely you'll get momentum, and curve how much you get upwards from 1.

heavyfuel
2020-07-04, 11:36 PM
Also, some ideas for Forms

All of them "1 action" and melee weapons only with damage increasing as usual at 5th, 11th, and 17th lv (ugh, formatting on a phone sucks)

Also, I'm terrible with names, so only a few have one.


Desert Wind: Make a melee attack that deals fire damage instead of its regular damage type. At 5th level, the attack deals an extra 1d10 points of damage.

Devoted Spirit: Battle Vigor: Make a melee attack. If it hits, choose an ally within 30ft who can see and hear you to gain 1d8 points of Temp HP. This thp lasts until the start of your next turn. At 5th level the temp HP increases by 1d8.

Diamond Mind: If you have advantage on your attack, you may ignore it and deal an extra 1d8 points of damage if this attack hits. If you have disadvantage, you may ignore it, but your attack deals damage as if you had rolled a 1 in every damage dice. Damage increases by 1d8 every time, but ignoring disadvantage means these d8 are still auto-1s. (I honestly think your Crystalline Perfection is too strong by allowing chars to ignore disadvantage for free is way too strong. Barbs do it by giving advantage to anyone attacking them and it's considered a very strong feature)

Iron Heart: Disciples of the Iron Heart know that fights should end as fast as possible, so you've learned to capitalize on your opponet's unpreparedness. Make a melee attack. If your opponent has taken no actions this combat - either because it was surprised during the it's first turn or because you won Initiative - you make this attack with Advantage. Otherwise, you make this attack with Disadvantage. Regardless of circumstances, if the attack hits, it deals an extra 1d12 points of damage.

Setting Sun: Make an unarmed attack that deals 1d6 points of damage, plus your strength or dexterity (your choice). At 5th level the sage increases by 1d6.

Shadow Hand: Works exactly like Sneak Attack, but the dice only increase at 5th, 11th and 17th.

Stone Dragon: Stopping Blow: Make a melee attack. If it hits, the target's speed is reduced to 5ft. At 5th level the damage increases by 1d8

Tiger Claw: Quick Scratches: If you are wielding two light weapons, you may make an attack with each one, but you do not add your abilities modifier to the damage of either attack. At 5th level, each attack deals an extra 1d6 damage.

White Raven: Make a melee attack. If it hits, you deal normal damage, but every ally deals an extra 1d4 points of damage per weapon attack against the target until the start of your next turn. At 5th level the damage increases by 1d4.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-07-05, 02:15 PM
How 'bout speeding up Momentum slightly by granting 1 point on rolling Initiative?

heavyfuel
2020-07-05, 03:00 PM
How 'bout speeding up Momentum slightly by granting 1 point on rolling Initiative?

You compared the class with the Warlock upthread, and I think this is part of the issue at hand.

The Warlock is already considered a pretty limited class in combat (just see the amount of jokes people make about them always using EB or taking a nap after every encounter.) Now, I don't think Warlocks are weak, far from it, but their spells *are* very limited.

Maneuvers are technically at will, but in most games, they'll be restricted to once per combat. The second maneuver they get will be useless 90% of combats. That's even more restrictive than Warlocks's spells. Is this really the path you head down?

Let's not forget that spells are stronger than maneuvers.

You're imposing more limits on maneuvers than the limits Warlocks get on their spells, and maneuvers are far weaker than spells.

It just doesn't make sense for me.

I get that maneuvers being completely at will is too strong for 5e, but they shouldn't be so restrictive to the point of you getting a single maneveuver per combat.

Even the Battlemaster gets more uses - especially since most BM maneuvers are only spent after they hit, so they often don't go to waste.

If you roll low on your maneuver attack, you're useless for the rest of the combat, because now you have to spend two more rounds building up for another maneuver. Combat is over by that point.

Honestly, I really liked the Momentum mechanic when I first read it, but the more I think about it, the more I see that it just doesn't work.

I think having a very short number of Maneuvers Readied (maybe 1 at Lv 1, increasing to 3 at level 11) that can only be recovered out of combat is probably best.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-07-05, 04:01 PM
Under this paradigm, maneuvers should be as powerful as spells, not less, but I take the point. The thing is, there needs to be an in-combat recharge-- that's a key part of the appeal of the original classes, that you can't run out of sword. The Forms and Stances are unlimited (and if you follow the link in the OP, I wrote 2 forms/school there), but to do this right, I need a way to make it feel like you've got an infinite number. That's the key thing that Momentum does, I think-- you may only be throwing one not-spell per battle, but there's no need to hoard your power, none of the "but I might need it more later" paranoia that usually plagues scant resources. It doesn't matter how many fights you get into later, you'll always have the same sort of power.

In any case, I dropped the Momentum cost per maneuver to 1-- along with posting the last few Diamond Mind maneuvers and all of Setting Sun. I also removed the "maneuver level" upcasting stuff in favor of just including the scaling in the maneuver descriptions-- it'll be simpler that way, I think.

Seclora
2020-07-05, 04:10 PM
*SNIP*

If you roll low on your maneuver attack, you're useless for the rest of the combat, because now you have to spend two more rounds building up for another maneuver. Combat is over by that point.

Honestly, I really liked the Momentum mechanic when I first read it, but the more I think about it, the more I see that it just doesn't work.

I think having a very short number of Maneuvers Readied (maybe 1 at Lv 1, increasing to 3 at level 11) that can only be recovered out of combat is probably best.

This is probably true, honestly. Maneuvers Readied, which can be changed and regained on a short rest, is a simpler mechanic to track than Momentum, and less likely to see things go unused. I'd aim more toward one for every five levels, plus one. so 2 to start, then 3 at level 5, 4 at level 11, 5 at level 16, with Mastery Maneuvers always available but at once per Long Rest.

I think every subclass should get a way to use more maneuvers at higher levels, though. Swordsage gets to ready an extra maneuver from their favored discipline, Warblade gets to choose one spent maneuver to recover as a Bonus Action once per short rest, and Crusader getting to recover all spent maneuvers when they've used all of their maneuvers, once per long Rest.

Of course, the real question if you do something like this is how to regard stances? Do they get their own separate readied slots or do they take up Maneuver slots? It would be terribly disappointing to spend one of your two slots on a stance and then lose concentration immediately. Maybe if Stances were treated as Bonus Action and at/will, but maneuvers of a given discipline could only be performed while using one of their stances? Say you could learn each disciplines basic stance at Form progression, but used an Invocation-style system to upgrade stances into more advanced forms. So you could learn Stance of Clarity and use Diamond Mind Maneuvers, and then Pearl of Black Doubt, Stance of Alacrity, and Hear the Air were all Techniques you could learn to enhance your Stance of Clarity, with level prerequisites.


Under this paradigm, maneuvers should be as powerful as spells, not less, but I take the point. The thing is, there needs to be an in-combat recharge-- that's a key part of the appeal of the original classes, that you can't run out of sword. The Forms and Stances are unlimited (and if you follow the link in the OP, I wrote 2 forms/school there), but to do this right, I need a way to make it feel like you've got an infinite number. That's the key thing that Momentum does, I think-- you may only be throwing one not-spell per battle, but there's no need to hoard your power, none of the "but I might need it more later" paranoia that usually plagues scant resources. It doesn't matter how many fights you get into later, you'll always have the same sort of power.

In any case, I dropped the Momentum cost per maneuver to 1-- along with posting the last few Diamond Mind maneuvers and all of Setting Sun. I also removed the "maneuver level" upcasting stuff in favor of just including the scaling in the maneuver descriptions-- it'll be simpler that way, I think.
Then rather than Short Rest Recharge, how about 'on start of initiative' recharge, with Short Rest changing of readied maneuvers, so there are always options available no matter how intense it gets?

heavyfuel
2020-07-05, 04:22 PM
Under this paradigm, maneuvers should be as powerful as spells, not less, but I take the point. The thing is, there needs to be an in-combat recharge-- that's a key part of the appeal of the original classes, that you can't run out of sword. The Forms and Stances are unlimited (and if you follow the link in the OP, I wrote 2 forms/school there), but to do this right, I need a way to make it feel like you've got an infinite number. That's the key thing that Momentum does, I think-- you may only be throwing one not-spell per battle, but there's no need to hoard your power, none of the "but I might need it more later" paranoia that usually plagues scant resources. It doesn't matter how many fights you get into later, you'll always have the same sort of power.

In any case, I dropped the Momentum cost per maneuver to 1-- along with posting the last few Diamond Mind maneuvers and all of Setting Sun. I also removed the "maneuver level" upcasting stuff in favor of just including the scaling in the maneuver descriptions-- it'll be simpler that way, I think.

Are you really going for "as powerful as spells"? This is not criticism, but an honest question. Because spells... Well. They can get pretty damn powerful, especially on the utility side of things. Having stuff like at will out of combat invisibility and silence and flight, long distance teleportation, and battlefield control of multiple targets at once are all things spells can do. Can Maneuvers do that?

Time of Battle maneuvers certainly couldn't. That's what I meant when I said Maneuvers are weaker than spells.

Also, something I thought of: What if we keep the 2 Momentum/maneuver thing, but add the following: "Initiating a form readies your body position for maneuvers from that school. Any maneuver you initiate up to one round after you've initiated a form of the same school costs no Momentum."

So, now you can have Form, Maneuver from same school, Form, Any maneuver, repeating.

That's 2 maneuvers per combat on average, and it encourages players think ahead.

Maybe make Counters and Boosts cost 1 momentum instead?

Grod_The_Giant
2020-07-05, 05:02 PM
Of course, the real question if you do something like this is how to regard stances? Do they get their own separate readied slots or do they take up Maneuver slots? It would be terribly disappointing to spend one of your two slots on a stance and then lose concentration immediately.
Stances are getting balanced against Invocations-- they're learned like other maneuvers, but they're at-will.


Are you really going for "as powerful as spells"? This is not criticism, but an honest question. Because spells... Well. They can get pretty damn powerful, especially on the utility side of things. Having stuff like at will out of combat invisibility and silence and flight, long distance teleportation, and battlefield control of multiple targets at once are all things spells can do. Can Maneuvers do that?
I'm sort of taking a double standard on this. Combat maneuvers are absolutely being balanced against spells; for more utility-oriented maneuvers like Shadow Hand's teleports, I'm going to think of them as at-will abilities and balance appropriately. (I might look at doing a "mortal perfection" school focused entirely on non-combat superhuman feats, but that's after the nine schools are done)


Also, something I thought of: What if we keep the 2 Momentum/maneuver thing, but add the following: "Initiating a form readies your body position for maneuvers from that school. Any maneuver you initiate up to one round after you've initiated a form of the same school costs no Momentum."

So, now you can have Form, Maneuver from same school, Form, Any maneuver, repeating.

That's 2 maneuvers per combat on average, and it encourages players think ahead.
Oooohhh... I like that, that's good. It also helps set maneuvers apart from spells, which is another major goal of using Momentum instead of not-spell points or something to that effect.


Maybe make Counters and Boosts cost 1 momentum instead?
This, on the other hand, I'm torn about. I see the advantage to doing it that way, especially for counters you might want to use unexpectedly. And hell, if I add a "Momentum" entry to all maneuvers, that gives me the option to have cheap-but-repeatable attacks and super-attacks within the same level, which is neat. At the same time it's an extra layer of nuance on a class that's already on the fiddly end for 5e-- Momentum alone is more complicated than any other resource I can think of in this edition, and that's with maneuvers all having the same cost. But the Setting Sun counters were hard to make strong enough; if they were half price, things would get easier. Hmmm...

EDIT: Stone Dragon is up.

heavyfuel
2020-07-06, 01:29 PM
Stances are getting balanced against Invocations-- they're learned like other maneuvers, but they're at-will.


I'm sort of taking a double standard on this. Combat maneuvers are absolutely being balanced against spells; for more utility-oriented maneuvers like Shadow Hand's teleports, I'm going to think of them as at-will abilities and balance appropriately. (I might look at doing a "mortal perfection" school focused entirely on non-combat superhuman feats, but that's after the nine schools are done)


Oooohhh... I like that, that's good. It also helps set maneuvers apart from spells, which is another major goal of using Momentum instead of not-spell points or something to that effect.


This, on the other hand, I'm torn about. I see the advantage to doing it that way, especially for counters you might want to use unexpectedly. And hell, if I add a "Momentum" entry to all maneuvers, that gives me the option to have cheap-but-repeatable attacks and super-attacks within the same level, which is neat. At the same time it's an extra layer of nuance on a class that's already on the fiddly end for 5e-- Momentum alone is more complicated than any other resource I can think of in this edition, and that's with maneuvers all having the same cost. But the Setting Sun counters were hard to make strong enough; if they were half price, things would get easier. Hmmm...

EDIT: Stone Dragon is up.

Fair point about how balacning is being done (though I haven't yet taken the time to actually read the maneuvers you've been puttin up :smalltongue: I think the basis of how the class works is more important than maneuver, which should be balanced at a later point)

Glad you liked my suggestion.

A question: Do you intend to make repeatable maneuvers a thing? For example, a 7th level Maestro knows a single 4th level maneuver, which - if spells are any indication - is stronger than any 3rd level maneuver, even when upcast. Say the PC's chosen maneuver is a Diamond Mind maneuver, you run the risk of the PC sticking to only using this single maneuver over and over until level 8.

Not sure if this is the intetion or if you intend to make "upcast" maneuvers actually on par with their higher level counterparts.

Yakk
2020-07-06, 04:41 PM
If you gain a random (and growing) amount of momentum per round, you could make it highly likely you can use a maneuver (and increasingly likely at higher levels), but not always the one you want.

Momentum
At 1st level you have a d4 momentum die. Once on your turn when you hit a creature with an attack you can roll your momentum die to deal that much additional damage and gain that much momentum.

You use momentum to power your maneuvers.

At 3rd level your momentum die becomes 1d6, at 5th 1d8, at 7th 1d10 and at 9th 1d12.

At level 11, you roll 2d12 and keep the better result. At level 17, you roll 2d12 and keep both (!).

If you already have momentum, you get to keep half of it (min 1) plus your new roll. (This keeps momentum from growing without bound; you cap out at around twice your max die size).

---

Now, Maneuvers have a level from 1 to 5 and cost twice their level in Momentum.

So if you get 1 on your Momentum die, you won't be able to get off a Maneuver the next turn. The chance of this falls as you gain levels (as the die gets bigger).

Maneuvers can do things with additional Momentum, instead of "cast at higher level", you "you can consume more momentum".

Optional: You cannot gain Momentum from an action that cost Momentum. You can still roll the die or dice, but it never adds to your Momentum.
Alternative: After doing a Maneuver, your Momentum gets set to 0.

Both of these are aimed at getting you back to a basic Form at some point, and not an infinite chain of Maneuvers.

---

This makes having at least 1 good maneuver for every level great, because you never know what Momentum you'll have.

Kane0
2020-07-06, 07:15 PM
Perhaps differing ways to generate Momentum based on subclass? Random gains definitely sound like a Crusader thing.

Base: Gain 1 momentum when you attack, dodge or use a form
Crusader: Gain 1d4 momentum at the start of your turn
Warblade: Gain 1 extra momentum when you attack, dodge or use a form and 1 momentum when you score a critical hit
Swordsage: When you use a maneuver you regain momentum equal to half that you spent.

Or whatever balancing seems appropriate.

OldTrees1
2020-07-06, 07:48 PM
If you gain a random (and growing) amount of momentum per round, you could make it highly likely you can use a maneuver (and increasingly likely at higher levels), but not always the one you want.

Why random? Generally randomness makes things less reliable and makes them harder to judge balance. I think this is a case where the mechanic of points better represents the concept than the mechanic of dice would.

Also the current design does not need to worry about momentum "growing without bound" because you are either growing or using the momentum. You can spam Forms. However chains of leveled maneuvers will deplete your momentum and thus end the chain.



Also, something I thought of: What if we keep the 2 Momentum/maneuver thing, but add the following: "Initiating a form readies your body position for maneuvers from that school. Any maneuver you initiate up to one round after you've initiated a form of the same school costs no Momentum."

So, now you can have Form, Maneuver from same school, Form, Any maneuver, repeating.

That's 2 maneuvers per combat on average, and it encourages players think ahead.

Hmm. How would I use the "matching = free" discount? I assume I only get the discount once per time I use a Form.*
1: 1st Form
2: 1st Boost(discounted from prior Form) + 2nd Form
3: 2nd Boost + Strike (one of which matches the 2nd Form).

* It is possible to read that discount as:
1: 1st Form
1-2: Matching Counter
2: Matching Boost & Matching Strike
But I assume it did not grant 3 discounts.

Lupine
2020-07-06, 08:03 PM
One potential fix for the momentum problem is yo make all maneuvers do some dice point of extra damage, in addition to “other thing.” Here is my idea:
Momentum isn’t “spent” to use a maneuver, but you do have to have a certain amount of it (for example, a 5th level maneuver might require that you have at least 5 momentum points accumulated)
The result if this is your character feels like he’s picking up speed.
Make some maneuvers give an extra point of momentum. Set a cap for how many points a character may have by level.
Make some maneuvers deal additional damage, on a die amounts. Gate certain maneuvers behind certain amounts of momentum —a level four maneuvers might require four momentum points (set at your discretion). Then, have excess momentum “power up” lower level maneuvers, similar to upcasting.

Now this class feels like he or she is picking up momentum as he fights AND feels like he’s chaining actions together, like some artful dance of death. In video game speak, this would make the character feel like he was comboing monsters

Grod_The_Giant
2020-07-07, 03:30 PM
Fair point about how balacning is being done (though I haven't yet taken the time to actually read the maneuvers you've been puttin up :smalltongue: I think the basis of how the class works is more important than maneuver, which should be balanced at a later point)
Very true. For the moment, let's assume that an X level maneuver has the same measure of combat power as an X level spell and design accordingly.


A question: Do you intend to make repeatable maneuvers a thing? For example, a 7th level Maestro knows a single 4th level maneuver, which - if spells are any indication - is stronger than any 3rd level maneuver, even when upcast. Say the PC's chosen maneuver is a Diamond Mind maneuver, you run the risk of the PC sticking to only using this single maneuver over and over until level 8.

Not sure if this is the intetion or if you intend to make "upcast" maneuvers actually on par with their higher level counterparts.
I don't mind repeatable maneuvers-- it was kind of a silly mechanic in 3.5, and Momentum already prevents you from spamming the same one over and over again. The point about only using high level maneuvers is a fair one... I'm trying to make sure that low-level maneuvers scale well, and that they're distinct enough to be useful at higher levels. Action Before Thought, for instance, is a second level maneuver that lets you move 5ft (or more, as you upcast) as a reaction to an attack or spell before it takes place-- that's useful at 3rd level and it's useful at 20th (particularly since by that point you're moving 40ft, enough that you could easily be on the other side of a door).


One potential fix for the momentum problem is yo make all maneuvers do some dice point of extra damage, in addition to “other thing.” Here is my idea:
Momentum isn’t “spent” to use a maneuver, but you do have to have a certain amount of it (for example, a 5th level maneuver might require that you have at least 5 momentum points accumulated)
The result if this is your character feels like he’s picking up speed.
Make some maneuvers give an extra point of momentum. Set a cap for how many points a character may have by level.
Make some maneuvers deal additional damage, on a die amounts. Gate certain maneuvers behind certain amounts of momentum —a level four maneuvers might require four momentum points (set at your discretion). Then, have excess momentum “power up” lower level maneuvers, similar to upcasting.

Now this class feels like he or she is picking up momentum as he fights AND feels like he’s chaining actions together, like some artful dance of death. In video game speak, this would make the character feel like he was comboing monsters
Hmm... I don't know how the balance works out, but that's a very cool idea...

Yakk
2020-07-07, 04:29 PM
Why random? Generally randomness makes things less reliable and makes them harder to judge balance. I think this is a case where the mechanic of points better represents the concept than the mechanic of dice would.
It adds chaos and makes the game less perfect knowledge.

With fixed points and costs, you are almost certainly going to get a loop that is optimal for a situation.

It might be "form, maneuver, form, maneuver" repeated with the same form and maneuver. It might be "form form maneuver maneuver".

But in any point system, you almost always end up with a narrow set of moves that are optimal. Making systems that don't have that is extremely difficult and delicate.

Now, suppose you have moves that cost between 2 and 10 points. And you earn between 1 and 12 points from a Form.

It may be optimal to do a Form, then pick the most expensive maneuver you can play, then repeat. This, at the very least, gives you 5 maneuvers that are used instead of 1 - a 5 fold increase in tactical complexity.

And it might even be a choice to "save up" on a low roll for a bigger maneuver.

Any "tactical choice" of maneuver ends up also being multiplied here. You'll want to have effective "level 1" maneuvers for multiple situations, as well as higher level ones (which should be more efficient than upcasting), because you don't know what slots you'll have available when you need them.

This also fits the chaos of battle. Your level 5 maneuver, cool as it is, isn't a guaranteed thing to be able to get off every fight.

This isn't academic either. SP spellcasters (be they psi or not) often end up with a smaller variety of spells cast; Psionic in 4e was almost always finding a single power that augmented well, and spamming it. Battlemasters figure out which maneuvers are best and reserve dice for them (the ROI on precision attack and riposte is often so much higher in certain builds than alternatives, that you don't use alternatives unless desperate; a single precision attack or riposte on a GWF with a flame tongue is worth upwards of 20 damage; all other damage uses of dice are worth half as much).

But that is balance. And I'd argue it is also fun. You charge up and get extra damage and points. You spend your time between turns figuring out what to spend those points on, then on your next turn let'er'rip. The extra information you get each turn makes pre-planning less efficient and solving in the heat of combat more efficient; you can still make a decision matrix, but it will be a larger one.

OldTrees1
2020-07-11, 09:10 PM
Yay it is the weekend, so I have time to read all of these lovely maneuvers. I a better at large scale or framework balance than fine tuning balance but I will be able to give personal usage comments. For forms themselves I will rank against Green Flame Blade. For Stances, expect them to be Black or Gold.

Gold:
Do I need to take this Maneuver? I view At Will Mage Hand Legerdemain essential to my concept of a dungeon guide rogue. So much so I was willing to commit significant build resources to acquire it in 3.5E. I am willing to bend over backwards for this effect. This rank does not mean overpowered, it means I would take it even if it were under powered.

Blue:
Does it overshadow the forms to the point that the forms are taxes to waste actions? I love at-will options. If a maneuver makes me feel these forms are worthless taxes, then it is probably over powered.
Black:
Would I generally prefer to use this maneuver over the forms? This is the desired balance point of the form-> form-> maneuver flow.
Purple:
Would I prefer to spam the forms? I love at-will options, so this might not mean the maneuver is under powered, but it is worth checking.


Crystalline Perfection
The ability to ignore disadvantage feels like a backup utility option. Probably balanced but not my first choice. Probably balanced regardless.

Discordant Strike
Granting advantage is a decent default tool.

Moment of Perfect Mind
So between turns 2-3 I could protect myself against Wisdom saves for the rest of the combat? Comes a bit late and at the expense of my momentum progress. Reactions suffer a bit under the momentum mechanic compared to 3rd, but so did defensive buff spells like Shield. Worth another look.

Sapphire Nightmare Blade
This surprised me since it is not like the namesake. This is a heavy strike for lots of damage. Kinda feels like we are being paid back for the damage we didn't get in rounds 1-2. Might still be balanced. It is definitely balanceable, just fine tune the scaling.

Stance of Clarity
A solid stance. Allows you to selectively adjust your defenses.

Action Before Thought
Reactive out of turn movement? Yes please! Probably underpowered but it feels so nice.

Emerald Razor
The ability to force a saving throw instead of attacking the AC. Half damage is nice for added consistency. I expected this effect in Desert Wind but it makes sense here too. Why did the scaling start at 3rd level for this maneuver (typo?)? Oh, and damage is not the only thing that can scale. The save could change from adv to normal to disadv for example.

Insightful Strike
Same feeling as Sapphire Nightmare Blade. When the turn 3 payout is just damage, it is easy to question why the damage was delayed. Probably balanced despite the feeling. Non comparables work better.

Mind Over Body
Typo? Is this a reaction or an action? Or either?
Worth knowing but I would alway be tempted not to use it unless I needed to.

Pearl of Black Doubt
Nice. Works great against many attacks.

Bounding Assault
Usually this will be reposition, gain advantage, and hit for +26 damage from the speed. Allowing AoOs would decrease the repositioning potential slightly but would make the amount of damage less consistently maximized. Probably fine as is. Since there is no explicit scaling, the main purpose of this maneuver is the repositioning (which can have scaling tactical benefits).

Mind Strike
Yes, we can inflict non damage forms of deadly threats!

Disrupting Blow
Back to back non damage threats. This time a defensive one.

Hearing the Air
Gain blindsight.

Rapid Counter
This starts to be an option after round 2. I like to have threatened squares rather than threatened areas, but I usually see combat locked down by now.

Moment of Alacrity
We had out of turn movement above. I am not sure what actions we would be doing, in combat, out of turn, that could not wait until next turn, and be worth draining our momentum. I would love to use this out of combat, but I don't think it works right for that. I might be underestimating this significantly.

Avalanche of Blades
An expected maneuver and seems reasonable.

Quicksilver Motion
An variant of Bounding Assault. Probably weaker than Bounding Assault, but I would prefer it for the options. It kinda cheats my grading scale by allowing me to still spam a Form.

Diamond Defense
This protection is worth losing the momentum. I would avoid using it but is would be a tool I would want in my toolbox.

Diamond Nightmare Blade
Deal a lethal blow.

Stance of Alacrity
What would I use those reactions on? Sentinel, Protection fighting style, hmm... This is a stance waiting for more content. Well designed on this end but I don't see the support.

Time Stands Still
Nice design for a 9th level maneuver. The higher level maneuver rule prevents this from going infinite. I would probably still lead with this on turn 3 to basically get 2 free Forms in on top of the normal turn 3 maneuver.


Thoughts:
Counters were generally Purple because they cost 2 turns of progress without making progress. However some are Gold because I like them despite probably being underpowered.
Stances were generally Black or Gold. They are well designed.
Strikes were generally Black with some Blue or Purple, and one Gold
Good balance in general and more than enough favorites.