Buffing Martial Characters

[Bobthewizard]

Based on feedback here, I have adjusted this thread to discuss a Power system to buff martial characters, primarily at tiers 3 and 4. As you read this thread, posts before about #20 are referring to the original post, now in a spoiler below.

Here's where I am right now on these bonus Powers. Martial characters get one at each ASI, and they scale over the next 2 ASI's. So whatever you take at 4 scales at 8 and 12. So at level 12, you get to start a new one, your level 8 one scales to its second tier, and your level 4 scales to its third tier. The Power you take at level 16 starts at its second ability. The Power you take at level 19 starts at its complete 3rd ability.

Scaling Powers for Martials. All are only available to martial classes (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger and Rogue). You can pick one each time you gain an ASI in a martial class. Variant humans do not get one of these at level 1.

I'd love to hear more ideas for additional options!

1. Climb
- You gain a climbing speed equal to your walking speed.
- When you reach level 11 in any martial class, your climbing speed equals 2x your walking speed.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you are permanently as if you were under the effect of the feather fall spell. You can turn this off while conscious. Additionally, if you keep still while climbing, you are invisible until you move or take an action or reaction..

2. Swim
- For 10 minutes, you gain a swim speed equal to your walking speed and can hold your breath for 10 minutes.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you can breath water, your swimming speed is 2x your walking speed.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you have resistance to cold damage and advantage on saves vs. being paralyzed.

3. Jump
- You gain flying speed equal to your walking speed but fall at end of turn
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, your flying speed for the turn increases to 2x your walking speed
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you no longer need to land.

4. Powerful
- You count as one size larger for determining grapples and when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift. Damage you deal to objects is doubled.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you count as 2 sizes larger, and you do 4x damage to objects.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you count as 3 sizes larger, and you do 8x damage to objects.

5. Heightened Senses
- You gain darkvision to 60’, if you already have darkvision increase it by 30’.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you gain blindsight to 60’
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you gain truesight to 60’

6. Sneak
- You have advantage on stealth checks to hide. In addition you can use an action to turn invisible until the end of your next turn.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you can become invisible, as if targeted by the invisibility spell 1/SR.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you can become invisible in combat, as if targeted by the greater invisibility spell 1/SR.

7. Slippery
- You can move through the squares of enemies and have advantage on checks to escape grapples and saves against paralysis or restraint
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you can use a BA teleport 30’ once per SR. You ignore difficult terrain.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you can teleport 2x/ SR and the range increases to 60’. You cannot be paralyzed or restrained.

8. Expert (You can take this more than once)
- You can double your proficiency bonus for any one skill. This cannot stack with other expertise.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you gain this ability for an additional skill. The first skill taken, or any other one skill that already has expertise, now gains triple your proficiency bonus total.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, the second skill taken, or any other one skill that already has expertise, now gains triple your proficiency bonus total.

9. Swarm Fighting
- When you take the attack action, you can make one extra attack against a creature whose CR is no more than 1/2 your level.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you can now make 2 extra attacks. These attacks must be against different creatures, each with a CR no more than 1/2 of your level.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you can now make up to 4 extra attacks. These attacks must be against different creatures, each with a CR no more than 1/2 of your level.

10. Magic Resistance
- You have advantage on saving throws vs. spells and magic effects.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you can use an action to attempt to dispel a magical effect as if you had cast dispel magic at 9th level, with a successful attack vs. AC equal to 10 + 2x spell level. You can use this 1/SR.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, when you fail a saving throw, you can instead choose to succeed on the save 1/LR

11. Fast
- You gain 10' to your walking speed
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you gain an additional 10' to your walking speed
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you gain an additional 20' to your walking speed

12. Hardy
- You gain +1 to your AC. You have advantage on saves vs. poison and resistance to the poisoned condition.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you gain +1HP per level and are immune to disease.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you gain +2 to CON and are immune to poison damage and the poisoned condition.


I've recently posted on two threads. The first, Crossbow expert blues (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614919-Crossbow-Expert-blues), was lamenting that feats encourage all marital characters to use pollards, rapiers or hand crossbows. I proposed some changes to eliminate that but was rightly called out for nerfing martial characters against spell casters.

In the second thread, What would you do to rebalance martials vs casters (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615087-What-would-you-do-to-rebalance-martials-vs-casters), many of the posts dealt with ways to make casters less powerful. I thought it would be fun to instead buff martial characters, but my post seemed to get lost in the discussion, so I'd like to discuss it here.

Here was my proposal, I would include Barbarians, Fighters, Monks, Paladins, Rangers and Rogues, even though some of those can be 1/2 and 1/3 casters.

1. First, give every martial character battle master maneuvers. It at least gives them a little variety each round. Obviously don't do this mid-campaign if someone is playing a battlemaster. Edit: On hold. I might do it but it would depend on the characters.

2. When martial classes get an ASI, they get both an ASI and a feat, as well as all of the following bonuses.
+1 to hit
+1 damage per hit
+1 AC
+1 HP per level
+1 on all saves Edit: removing to keep bounded accuracy and focus on versatility.
+5' movement
one new skill
one new expertise

3. Add additional POWERS feats only available to martial characters:

1. Expert Climber - gain climbing speed
2. Expert Swimmer - swim speed equal to walking speed, plus water breathing
3. Expert Jumper - gain flying speed equal to walking speed but must land at end of your turn
4. Expert Sneak - BA invisible until end of next turn
5. Legendary Resistance - 1/LR each time you take it, can be taken more than once
6. Swarm fighting - can attack as many extra times as level / CR of monster.
7. Slippery - BA 30' teleport 1/SR
8. Hit harder - add 1d8 to each attack
9. Hit faster - gain one more attack on your turn
10. Magic resistance - advantage on saves vs. spells and magic effects
11. Expert grappler - size limit goes up one size. Can be taken more than once.

Edit: Updated new POWERS feats, taken in addition to an ASI and a regular feat

1. Expert climber – climbing speed (climbing speed 2x walking if taken twice, feather fall at 3rd)
2. Expert swimmer – water breathing x1hr and swim speed (unlimited water breathing and swimming speed 2x walking if taken twice)
3. Expert jumper – flying speed but fall at end of turn (at 2x walking speed if taken twice, no need to land if taken 3rd time)
4. Expert grappler – increase size limit by one (can take more than once)
5. Expert senses – darkvision 60’, (then blindsight 60’ at 2nd, then truesight to 60’ if a 3rd time)
6. Expert Sneak - Advantage on stealth, (action for invisibility for one turn on 2nd, invisibility 1/LR on 3rd, greater invisibility 1/LR on 4th)
7. Slippery – BA teleport 30’ once per SR (can take more than once for more uses or +30’ range)
8. Double Expertise – can double proficiency bonus for any one skill that already has expertise, only once per skill.
9. Swarm fighting - can attack as many extra times as level / highest CR of monster hit that turn, rounded down. (if taken again, you can take Hunter Ranger's Whirlwind or Volley).
10. Magic Resistance - advantage on saves vs. spells and magic effects, (then 3rd level dispel magic 1/SR on a hit - I'm picturing them smashing a forcecage, then legendary resistance 1/LR)

Any other class or race feature or even spell equivalent you want to add as a feat you could.

If you would like to discuss existing feats, please go here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614919-Crossbow-Expert-blues). If you would like to discuss ways to nerf spell casters, please go here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615087-What-would-you-do-to-rebalance-martials-vs-casters). Otherwise, I would love to hear your opinions and ideas on numbers 1-3 below.

1. What do you think about eliminating the battlemaster and giving their maneuvers and dice to every martial character?

2. Are the ASI bumps enough to make martials competitive at higher levels? Or are they too much?

3. What new, fun feats would you like to see to make high-level martial characters able to perform superhuman acts?

Edit: I've gotten good feedback on the first two so would like to focus on any new feats for martial characters. Progressive feats would be ideal.

[Elricaltovilla]

Looking at what you've suggested, I think you are falling into the same trap that so many other designers fall into: giving martials bigger numbers to compensate for their lack of strategic level or campaign level influence. Specifically your 2nd bonus and your extra feats 5, 6, 8, and 9.

Those don't actually give martials more or better ability to interact with the world. They just give them bigger numbers, which throws off the math of the game, which is especially bad in a game designed with bounded accuracy in mind.

Additionally, I don't like the idea of eliminating the Battle master because it removes the idea of the fighter class as the superior pure martial, and creates a problem of making all martials more generic. Maybe it could be done better by giving each class some form of superiority die and having a small subset of generic maneuvers, but then giving each martial class its own list of unique maneuvers that only they can use?

[Quietus]

Looking at what you've suggested, I think you are falling into the same trap that so many other designers fall into: giving martials bigger numbers to compensate for their lack of strategic level or campaign level influence. Specifically your 2nd bonus and your extra feats 5, 6, 8, and 9.

Those don't actually give martials more or better ability to interact with the world. They just give them bigger numbers, which throws off the math of the game, which is especially bad in a game designed with bounded accuracy in mind.

Additionally, I don't like the idea of eliminating the Battle master because it removes the idea of the fighter class as the superior pure martial, and creates a problem of making all martials more generic. Maybe it could be done better by giving each class some form of superiority die and having a small subset of generic maneuvers, but then giving each martial class its own list of unique maneuvers that only they can use?

Precisely this. Yes, there are some issues within martials - Barbarian's reliance on brutal critical as a class feature for the second half of its career is an absolute travesty - but the main thing is that you cannot solve a social encounter with battlemaster dice. You can't find your way through the jungle of chult by stabbing it. When people comment that they feel their martial characters aren't powerful enough, the two main issues are 1) no feat to support their fighting style, particularly while someone else is playing XBE/PAM/GWM, and 2) A lack of agency in the social and exploration pillars. And that latter isn't something you can solve by throwing bigger numbers at them, or giving additional feats. You really do need to get your hands dirty, and get into the guts of the classes to add effects.

For example, you could build something into Champion where you build a reputation as you level up - you become well known, whether for good or ill. Stories of your exploits have made their way across the land, and you get proficiency in Persuasion or Intimidation. Perhaps later this can become Expertise. That's a start, but you'll also need to provide some abilities that have a broader range of effect aside from "Here's a skill". But as a just-woke-up brainstorm, this to me represents your ability as a well known champion to leverage your fame or infamy into advantages in the social tier. You could also have some other ability tied to the limitation that you have to have had a big fight inside of a city, or on its behalf, but you then leverage that direct connection into something... I'm blanking on what. But these are examples of the direction these classes need to grow. Outward, not upward.

[Bobthewizard]

Looking at what you've suggested, I think you are falling into the same trap that so many other designers fall into: giving martials bigger numbers to compensate for their lack of strategic level or campaign level influence. Specifically your 2nd bonus and your extra feats 5, 6, 8, and 9.

Those don't actually give martials more or better ability to interact with the world. They just give them bigger numbers, which throws off the math of the game, which is especially bad in a game designed with bounded accuracy in mind.

Additionally, I don't like the idea of eliminating the Battle master because it removes the idea of the fighter class as the superior pure martial, and creates a problem of making all martials more generic. Maybe it could be done better by giving each class some form of superiority die and having a small subset of generic maneuvers, but then giving each martial class its own list of unique maneuvers that only they can use?

Thanks for replying. My thought on giving bigger numbers to martials was to make the casters feel squishier without directly nerfing them. Let all martial classes be tougher and faster, and hit harder. You'd have to give enemies more HP and damage and change the bounds of accuracy a little. But I get what you are saying that this isn't the problem with martial characters. Maybe for #2, just give the movement, skill and expertise with each ASI.

I agree with your assessment of battlemaster in theory, but in practice I don't see many battlemasters. Mostly eldritch knights, samurais, cavaliers and I suspect soon, echo knights. We can ignore #1 for now.

So if I were to use the feat system above (even taking out 5, 6, 8, and 9 which you are probably right), even if you don't think it's ideal, what additional feats would you recommend in part 3 so we can get martial characters to do more fun stuff. I'd love to hear your ideas, especially ones increasing versatility instead of power. What cool things wold you like to see as feats for martial characters?


When people comment that they feel their martial characters aren't powerful enough, the two main issues are 1) no feat to support their fighting style, particularly while someone else is playing XBE/PAM/GWM, and 2) A lack of agency in the social and exploration pillars. And that latter isn't something you can solve by throwing bigger numbers at them, or giving additional feats. You really do need to get your hands dirty, and get into the guts of the classes to add effects.

Instead of dealing with the classes, for simplicity my plan is to address this in martial-only feats per #3 above. Even if you don't agree with that, what feats could you recommend to solve the problem of the social/exploration pillars?

Do you have ideas for feats that could help with other fighting styles?


For example, you could build something into Champion where you build a reputation as you level up - you become well known, whether for good or ill. Stories of your exploits have made their way across the land, and you get proficiency in Persuasion or Intimidation. Perhaps later this can become Expertise. That's a start, but you'll also need to provide some abilities that have a broader range of effect aside from "Here's a skill". But as a just-woke-up brainstorm, this to me represents your ability as a well known champion to leverage your fame or infamy into advantages in the social tier. You could also have some other ability tied to the limitation that you have to have had a big fight inside of a city, or on its behalf, but you then leverage that direct connection into something... I'm blanking on what. But these are examples of the direction these classes need to grow. Outward, not upward.

I love this. I think for me, it will be easier to capture this in new and additional feats rather than revamping the classes, but if a DM wanted to expand the class abilities for martials, I'd love to play in that game. I'm just trying to keep it simpler for me to implement. I'd love to hear any specific suggestions you have for new feats, if you could.

[Quietus]

Instead of dealing with the classes, for simplicity my plan is to address this in martial-only feats per #3 above. Even if you don't agree with that, what feats could you recommend to solve the problem of the social/exploration pillars?

Do you have ideas for feats that could help with other fighting styles?


I love this. I think for me, it will be easier to capture this in new and additional feats rather than revamping the classes, but if a DM wanted to expand the class abilities for martials, I'd love to play in that game. I'm just trying to keep it simpler for me to implement. I'd love to hear any specific suggestions you have for new feats, if you could.

The issue with with keeping your fix within the realm of feats is that you generally only get five, without multiclassing, outside of Fighter. And most classes want to spend 3.5-4 of those on stats. So you're giving the option to add ... one class feature. Maybe. If you aren't planning on using any of the feats we already have. Instead of expanding the martial classes, you're making - for example - the Barbarian choose between getting max str + dex/con and a feat, or drop one of those in favor of something that should be a class feature. I would recommend against that.

Actually, now that Barbarian is on the mind, what would I add for them... I can't decide if this would be a subclass thing or part of the base chassis, but I'd build in a mechanic that allows them to spend a use of Rage in a social situation. We've all been in that really uncomfortable situation where you're trying to have a reasonable conversation, and someone is just gut-frothingly mad that you aren't listening to them, or they're loud and angry and insistent enough that you finally just give in because you can't keep dealing with them. I haven't decided on how the mechanic would work, but it would be something that would either give you an extreme edge in social situations, or an outright win. Possibly something extremely binary; you either cow your social target (treat them as friendly as long as you're in their presence), or you make them dig in against you (immediately become hostile - in a social sense, not a martial sense). In both cases they are unlikely to come away with a positive opinion of you afterward.

Nope, no outright win. That's one of the problems with Ranger; they outright win at certain exploration tasks. You want to make a situation more interesting, not just more successful.

[Bobthewizard]

The issue with with keeping your fix within the realm of feats is that you generally only get five, without multiclassing, outside of Fighter. And most classes want to spend 3.5-4 of those on stats. So you're giving the option to add ... one class feature. Maybe. If you aren't planning on using any of the feats we already have. Instead of expanding the martial classes, you're making - for example - the Barbarian choose between getting max str + dex/con and a feat, or drop one of those in favor of something that should be a class feature. I would recommend against that.

I am going to let martial characters take both a feat and an ASI each time. So likely 2-3 feats to get their fighting style and then 2-3 for fun stuff. Or if we can come up with enough out of combat fun feats, I might allow ASI, a regular feat, and one of the bonus feats.

[x3n0n]

you cannot solve a social encounter with battlemaster dice.

The Class Features UA has a few maneuvers that are intended to help with this:

Ambush: add a superiority die to initiative or Stealth
Silver Tongue: Deception or Persuasion
Studious Eye: Insight or Investigation

It also suggests being able to rotate one maneuver out on a long rest.

[Dienekes]

I love this. I think for me, it will be easier to capture this in new and additional feats rather than revamping the classes, but if a DM wanted to expand the class abilities for martials, I'd love to play in that game. I'm just trying to keep it simpler for me to implement. I'd love to hear any specific suggestions you have for new feats, if you could.

Feel free to change these into feats. But I’m working on a change to martial classes specifically to make them all play different from each other. And part of that is giving them all non-combat abilities.

For example the Fighter I’ve reworked a bit so they no longer get generic subclasses (champion and battlemaster don’t really have any fluff to them which makes figuring out what they’re supposed to do out of combat difficult) and replaced them with very specific subclasses: Serjeant-at-Arms, Elite Guard, Knight, and Gladiator are what I have right now.

Of them the Knight focuses on social encounters. They gain proficiency in Persuasion for starters, but at 6th level they gain the ability to add an epithet like The Bold, The Cruel, The Honest, or The Good. Which each effects how they are expected to behave. The Honest makes it more difficult for others to lie in your presence. The Good makes commoners see you as Friendly even if they have never met you before. And so on.
While the SAA works more on healing and support. Being able to get the allies to work together easier and provides benefits similar to Bardic Inspiration. And Elite Guard becomes the kings of observation. Eventually being able to more easily see through illusions or with features that work similar to detect magic.

Other classes get similar benefits with admittedly the kings of out of combat utility being given to the Rogue. Who get to choose from a list of ways to improve most skills with new effects. At high level a Persuasion focused Rogue may be able to get a minion to change sides mid-battle or can effectively cast Charm Person with a speech. Or can jump through the air as though they’re flying, provided they touch ground somewhere in their movement so they can effectively Mario jump along walls. Just fun stuff to get them more than basic skills.

I hope that was helpful to give you an inspirational starting point.

[da newt]

IMO your ideas are good but heavy handed. I'd prefer something a little more subtle. Some 1/2 baked ideas follow:

Maybe all martial classes get an ASI/feat at lvl 10 (rogues extra ASI moves to 14). I'd also add one expertise for all martials at lvl 2, 7, and 14 and add a couple of martial beneficial feats (a couple combat, a couple social). These would be mild positive nerfs for the non-casters. A simple one might be an extra attack feat. Another might be a simple +2 AC feat.

Then I'd look to create a way for martials to influence the battle space in a more AoE kind of a way (IMO this is what is often missing from PC's who really can only dish damage to one foe at a time mostly) - what sorts of conditions should martials be able to inflict upon many or a large area? And I'd design this sort of bigger effect to come online in late tier 2/early 3 where martials start to fall behind casters.

Then I'd look for good ways to buff up the lvl 18/20 capstones.

Also, I'd be wary of boosting the 1/2 casters as much as the non-casters. I worry that could throw off the balance.

[Bobthewizard]

Feel free to change these into feats. But I’m working on a change to martial classes specifically to make them all play different from each other. And part of that is giving them all non-combat abilities.

For example the Fighter I’ve reworked a bit so they no longer get generic subclasses (champion and battlemaster don’t really have any fluff to them which makes figuring out what they’re supposed to do out of combat difficult) and replaced them with very specific subclasses: Serjeant-at-Arms, Elite Guard, Knight, and Gladiator are what I have right now.

Of them the Knight focuses on social encounters. They gain proficiency in Persuasion for starters, but at 6th level they gain the ability to add an epithet like The Bold, The Cruel, The Honest, or The Good. Which each effects how they are expected to behave. The Honest makes it more difficult for others to lie in your presence. The Good makes commoners see you as Friendly even if they have never met you before. And so on.
While the SAA works more on healing and support. Being able to get the allies to work together easier and provides benefits similar to Bardic Inspiration. And Elite Guard becomes the kings of observation. Eventually being able to more easily see through illusions or with features that work similar to detect magic.

Other classes get similar benefits with admittedly the kings of out of combat utility being given to the Rogue. Who get to choose from a list of ways to improve most skills with new effects. At high level a Persuasion focused Rogue may be able to get a minion to change sides mid-battle or can effectively cast Charm Person with a speech. Or can jump through the air as though they’re flying, provided they touch ground somewhere in their movement so they can effectively Mario jump along walls. Just fun stuff to get them more than basic skills.

I hope that was helpful to give you an inspirational starting point.

Thanks. I like the idea of progressive abilities. I think I could tie this into a feat system. So at each ASI, martial characters would get a new skill, expertise in an existing skill, an ASI, a regular feat and then a martial feat below.

New feats for martial characters

Slippery – BA teleport 30’ once per SR (can take more than once for more uses or +30’ range)
Expert swimmer – water breathing x1hr and swim speed (unlimited water breathing and swimming speed 2x walking if taken twice)
Expert climber – climbing speed (climbing speed 2x walking if taken twice, feather fall at 3rd)
Expert jumper – flying speed but fall at end of turn (at 2x walking speed if taken twice, no need to land if taken 3rd time)
Expert grappler – increase size limit by one (can take more than once)
Expert senses – darkvision 60’, (then blindsight 60’ at 2nd, then truesight to 60’ if a 3rd time)
Double Expertise – can double proficiency bonus for any one skill that already has expertise, only once per skill.
Swarm fighting - can attack as many extra times as level / highest CR of monster hit that turn, rounded down.
Magic Resistance - advantage on saves vs. spells and magic effects, (then 3rd level dispel magic on a hit - I'm picturing them smashing a forcecage, then legendary resistance 1/LR)


IMO your ideas are good but heavy handed. I'd prefer something a little more subtle. Some 1/2 baked ideas follow:

Maybe all martial classes get an ASI/feat at lvl 10 (rogues extra ASI moves to 14). I'd also add one expertise for all martials at lvl 2, 7, and 14 and add a couple of martial beneficial feats (a couple combat, a couple social). These would be mild positive nerfs for the non-casters. A simple one might be an extra attack feat. Another might be a simple +2 AC feat.

Then I'd look to create a way for martials to influence the battle space in a more AoE kind of a way (IMO this is what is often missing from PC's who really can only dish damage to one foe at a time mostly) - what sorts of conditions should martials be able to inflict upon many or a large area? And I'd design this sort of bigger effect to come online in late tier 2/early 3 where martials start to fall behind casters.

Then I'd look for good ways to buff up the lvl 18/20 capstones.

Also, I'd be wary of boosting the 1/2 casters as much as the non-casters. I worry that could throw off the balance.

Yes. I was definitely heavy handed. I wanted to put all of my ideas out there. Using all of them at once might be too much. I agree with that.

AOE for martials is a great idea. I tried to address that with Swarm fighting, but I'm not sure about the mechanics.

[sayaijin]

One thing I've considered, but not balanced, is using Sword Burst and Hail of Thorns as templates for maneuvers martials could use.

Sword burst can easily be reflavored as swiping in a circle with your sword, and Hail of Thorns can likewise be reflavored as shooting multiple arrows at one time.

So let's try a feat for the archery one.
Volley Archer:
Dex +1
While weilding a longbow or a shortbow, you may expend 9 pieces of ammunition to convert one of your attacks into a volley. Enemies in a ten foot radius centered on a point of your choosing within your weapon range must make a Dex saving throw. On a fail, they take damage equal to your normal attack damage. On a success they take half.


Assuming you use some semblance of reality on the number of arrows you can access, this has a limit on uses in a battle. I don't have a great idea for sword users yet.

[Bobthewizard]

One thing I've considered, but not balanced, is using Sword Burst and Hail of Thorns as templates for maneuvers martials could use.

Sword burst can easily be reflavored as swiping in a circle with your sword, and Hail of Thorns can likewise be reflavored as shooting multiple arrows at one time.

So let's try a feat for the archery one.
Volley Archer:
Dex +1
While weilding a longbow or a shortbow, you may expend 9 pieces of ammunition to convert one of your attacks into a volley. Enemies in a ten foot radius centered on a point of your choosing within your weapon range must make a Dex saving throw. On a fail, they take damage equal to your normal attack damage. On a success they take half.


Assuming you use some semblance of reality on the number of arrows you can access, this has a limit on uses in a battle. I don't have a great idea for sword users yet.

I like this idea. I added Whirlwind and Volley to 2nd or 3rd time taking Swarm fighting. I'm going to keep it simple and just use the Hunter Ranger abilities.

[sayaijin]

Also, I got to thinking about your skill boost ideas. Maybe take the reliable talent template and scale it, but only for expertise skills.

So something like this:
Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add double your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll lower than your character level as equal to your character level.

Then you just give more martials expertise (and fewer ways for casters to get expertise) and find another way to boost the rogue since they lose something.

Then you start getting insanely high skill DC's for martials and not for casters. That allows them to do physical things the casters can't.

[Elricaltovilla]

I think you are going to run into an issue with all these "take this feat 2 or 3 times" ideas you are suggesting. My experience mostly comes from 3.5 and Pathfinder where your average character gets double or even triple the number of feats that a 5e character gets and one of the biggest complaints is how much space feat chains take up in a martial's build. In a game where you are only getting 4 or 5 feats as opposed to 10 or 15, I can't imagine how frustrating it would be. I strongly suggest you abandon this line of thinking. 5e doesn't have the room in its progression for feat chains.

[Bobthewizard]

Also, I got to thinking about your skill boost ideas. Maybe take the reliable talent template and scale it, but only for expertise skills.

So something like this:
Whenever you make an ability check that lets you add double your proficiency bonus, you can treat a d20 roll lower than your character level as equal to your character level.

Then you just give more martials expertise (and fewer ways for casters to get expertise) and find another way to boost the rogue since they lose something.

Then you start getting insanely high skill DC's for martials and not for casters. That allows them to do physical things the casters can't.

That's a good idea. I thought double expertise would get you to the same place, but your idea would work too.


I think you are going to run into an issue with all these "take this feat 2 or 3 times" ideas you are suggesting. My experience mostly comes from 3.5 and Pathfinder where your average character gets double or even triple the number of feats that a 5e character gets and one of the biggest complaints is how much space feat chains take up in a martial's build. In a game where you are only getting 4 or 5 feats as opposed to 10 or 15, I can't imagine how frustrating it would be. I strongly suggest you abandon this line of thinking. 5e doesn't have the room in its progression for feat chains.

This is a separate set of feats. Martial characters would get both their normal feat + ASI at each ASI point. Then they can take one of these extra feats each time. So most would have 5 of these to play with, rogues would have 6 and fighters 7, that only apply to these 10 feats. I should change the name... Boons and skills have been taken. Let's see... talents, gifts, crafts, knacks, mights, powers? Let's go with powers for now until I hear something I like more.

[Elricaltovilla]

That's a good idea. I thought double expertise would get you to the same place, but your idea would work too.



This is a separate set of feats. Martial characters would get both their normal feat + ASI at each ASI point. Then they can take one of these extra feats each time. So most would have 5 of these to play with, rogues would have 6 and fighters 7, that only apply to these 10 feats. I should change the name... Boons and skills have been taken. Let's see... talents, gifts, crafts, knacks, mights, powers? Let's go with powers for now until I hear something I like more.

I still stand by what I suggest. Feat chains almost always end up a feelbad mechanic. They are one of the things that make martials feel weak in 3.5 and Pathfinder. I think it would be better to scale these feats by play tier. For example:

Expert jumper – When you jump, you can make an Athletics or Acrobatics check to jump a number of feet equal to the result of your check. At 10th level, you can jump a number of feet equal to twice the result. At 15th level, you instead gain a flying speed equal to your walking speed.

[Bobthewizard]

I still stand by what I suggest. Feat chains almost always end up a feelbad mechanic. They are one of the things that make martials feel weak in 3.5 and Pathfinder. I think it would be better to scale these feats by play tier. For example:

Expert jumper – When you jump, you can make an Athletics or Acrobatics check to jump a number of feet equal to the result of your check. At 10th level, you can jump a number of feet equal to twice the result. At 15th level, you instead gain a flying speed equal to your walking speed.

I love this idea! If we use scaling powers, then martials could take 5-7 of the 10 so by level 19 they'd all be amazing. Thanks.

[Elricaltovilla]

I love this idea! If we use scaling powers, then martials could take 5-7 of the 10 so by level 19 they'd all be amazing. Thanks.

Glad I could help. It's good to see my game design skills haven't totally rusted away. I may do some more work once I have access to my computer again.

[noob]

rank 3 jump is much stronger than rank 3 climb.

[Bobthewizard]

Moved to post #1

Here's where I am right now on these bonus feats. Martial characters get one at each ASI, and they scale over the next 2 ASI's. So whatever you take at 4 scales at 8 and 12. So at level 12, you get to start a new one, your level 8 one scales to its second tier, and your level 4 scales to its third tier. The Power you take at level 16 starts at its second ability. The Power you take at level 19 starts at its complete 3rd ability.

Scaling Powers for Martials. All are only available to martial classes (Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger and Rogue). You can pick one each time you gain an ASI in a martial class.

1. Climber –
- You gain a climbing speed equal to your walking speed.
- When you reach level 11 in any martial class, your climbing speed equals 2x your walking speed.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you are permanently as if you were under the effect of the feather fall spell. You can turn this off while conscious. Additionally, if you keep still while climbing, you are invisible until you move or take an action or reaction..

2. Swimmer –
- For 10 minutes, you gain a swim speed equal to your walking speed and can hold your breath for 10 minutes.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you can breath water, your swimming speed is 2x your walking speed.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you have resistance to cold damage and advantage on saves vs. being paralyzed.

3. Jumper –
- You gain flying speed equal to your walking speed but fall at end of turn
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, your flying speed for the turn increases to 2x your walking speed
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you no longer need to land.

4. Powerful –
- You count as one size larger for determining grapples and when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift. Damage you deal to objects is doubled.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you count as 2 sizes larger, and you do 4x damage to objects.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you count as 3 sizes larger, and you do 8x damage to objects.

5. Senses –
- You gain darkvision to 60’, if you already have darkvision increase it by 30’.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you gain blindsight to 60’
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you gain truesight to 60’

6. Sneaky –
- You have advantage on stealth checks to hide. In addition you can use an action to turn invisible until the end of your next turn.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you can become invisible, as if targeted by the invisibility spell 1/SR.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you can become invisible in combat, as if targeted by the greater invisibility spell 1/SR.

7. Slippery –
- You can move through the squares of enemies and have advantage on checks to escape grapples and saves against paralysis or restraint
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you can use a BA teleport 30’ once per SR
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you can use this feature 2x/ SR and the range increases to 60’

8. Expert (You can take this more than once) –
- You can double your proficiency bonus for any one skill. This cannot stack with other expertise.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you gain this ability for an additional skill. The first skill taken, or any other skill that already has expertise, now gains triple your proficiency bonus.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you gain this ability for a third skill. The second skill taken, or any other skill that already has expertise, now gains triple your proficiency bonus.

9. Swarm Fighting –
- When you take the attack action on your turn, you can attack a number of extra times equal to your level divided by the highest CR of a monster you attack that turn, rounded down.
- When you take the attack action, you can make one extra attack against a creature whose CR is less than 1/2 your level.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you can now make 2 extra attacks. These attacks must be against different creatures, each with a CR less than 1/2 of your level.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you can now make up to 4 extra attacks. These attacks must be against different creatures, each with a CR less than 1/2 of your level.

10. Magic Resistance –
- You have advantage on saving throws vs. spells and magic effects.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you can dispel magic as if you had cast the spell, with a successful attack (vs. AC equal to 10+ spell level). You can use this 1/SR.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, when you fail a saving throw, you can instead choose to succeed on the save 1/LR

[Elricaltovilla]

I don't like the wording on swarm fighting. I might suggest something like this:

Swarm Fighting –
- When you take the attack action on your turn, you may choose to make one additional attack for every 4 levels in martial classes you possess. If you do so, each of these additional attacks you make must target a different creature.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you gain one of Whirlwind or Volley (as the Ranger Hunter Cadre feature).
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you can use either Whirlwind or Volley.

I am not sure about how good the third tier is, but I am also unsure of what an acceptable replacement is.

EDIT: for Slippery, I would rather have the choice of increasing the distance of the teleport or adding an extra use at both tier 2 and tier 3.

[Moreb Benhk]

All martials are not on the same footing to start with though. I think some consideration should be made to the power and flexibility that already exists on the Paladin.

I like the general idea as presented as a workable patch to the system, in fact it might be the most robust yet-potentially implementable idea I've seen (as opposed to fixing skills or rewriting the classes themselves) but you'd still want to tweak some balancing issues. Power grappler, for instance might be on the weaker side (it doesn't open up the same kind of new capacity as the other ones do.) and Double expertise further breaks the bounded accuracy chassis and Swarm Fighting sounds like a bit of a pain to calculate each time (and a bit vague - is this in addition to the extra Attacks of Extra attack?)

You may also run into 'flavour' issues - with a number of these moving straight into 'giving magic to martial characters to fix them' (how much of a problem this is would likely vary a lot between players)

They also run into the issue of potentially invalidating a lot of the class features that already exist (eg - Gloomstalker stuff)

Additionally it runs into the issue of making Variant Humans even more betterer (unless their bonus feat is excluded from these things).

[DarknessEternal]

They don't need it if you're playing 5e as intended.

[Bobthewizard]

I don't like the wording on swarm fighting.

Agree. Edited above to try to make it more straightforward.


1. All martials are not on the same footing to start with though. I think some consideration should be made to the power and flexibility that already exists on the Paladin.

2. I like the general idea as presented as a workable patch to the system, in fact it might be the most robust yet-potentially implementable idea I've seen (as opposed to fixing skills or rewriting the classes themselves) but you'd still want to tweak some balancing issues. Power grappler, for instance might be on the weaker side (it doesn't open up the same kind of new capacity as the other ones do.) and Double expertise further breaks the bounded accuracy chassis and Swarm Fighting sounds like a bit of a pain to calculate each time (and a bit vague - is this in addition to the extra Attacks of Extra attack?)

3. You may also run into 'flavour' issues - with a number of these moving straight into 'giving magic to martial characters to fix them' (how much of a problem this is would likely vary a lot between players)

4. They also run into the issue of potentially invalidating a lot of the class features that already exist (eg - Gloomstalker stuff)

5. Additionally it runs into the issue of making Variant Humans even more betterer (unless their bonus feat is excluded from these things).

Added numbers to your post to make it easier to reply.

1. I absolutely like Paladins more than Barbarians. But I'm not trying to rebalance martial classes. That is beyond my scope for this.

2. Thanks. Power Grappler will not be taken often. But if you are making a grappler, this is the exact feat you want to keep grappling relevant in tier 3-4.

3-4. Maybe. We'll see how this goes over with the players. Although for gloom stalker, most of these would stack.

5. V. humans don't get this at level 1. Only the ASI's given by martial classes count.


They don't need it if you're playing 5e as intended.

I agree with you for combat. 6-8 encounters, or even the threat of 6-8 encounters per long rest, balances things out. But here's a thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615087-What-would-you-do-to-rebalance-martials-vs-casters) for that conversation. I'd like to keep this thread to suggestions for these Powers or recommendations for additional ones.

[Elricaltovilla]

9. Swarm Fighting –
- When you take the attack action on your turn, you can attack a number of extra times equal to your level divided by the highest CR of a monster you attack that turn, rounded down.
- When you take the attack action, you can make one extra attack against a creature whose CR is no more than 1/2 your level.
- When you reach your next ASI in any martial class, you make 2 extra attacks against a creature whose CR is no more than 1/2 your level.
- When you reach the following ASI in any martial class, you gain either Whirlwind or Volley (per level 11 Hunter Ranger).



This wording is much better but I still think you should include wording that indicates that the bonus attacks from swarm fighting need to target different creatures, since I assume it is supposed to be used when you are facing multiple weaker creatures. I'm not too well versed on 5e encounter design, is the 1/2 CR limit a reasonable one to have? I found a lot of issues trying to use that wording in Pathfinder, CR is disturbingly unreliable.

[pragma]

I am in strong agreement that discrete mechanical exceptions would help put martials on much more even footing with spellcasters. A few more suggestions for powers

* Demolition
-- Damage you deal to objects is doubled
-- Damage you deal to objects is doubled again
-- Damage you deal to objects is doubled again and you ignore resistance/immunity to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage types.

* Power Lifter
-- The first time you acquire this power, you double your lift/carry capacity and may automatically force open wooden doors and containers
-- The second time you acquire this power, you double your lift/carry capacity again and may automatically force open metal doors and containers
-- The third time you acquire this power, you double your lift/carry capacity again and may automatically force open stone doors and containers

* Trample
-- As an action, you may steel yourself to trample your enemies. While trampling, you may make an opposed strength check to move into an enemy's square, displacing them to an adjacent square or knocking them prone (your choice). Enemies moved through in this way take 1d4+Str damage. At 5th level, the damage improves to 2d4, at 10th level, to 3d4 and at 15th level to 4d4.

* Crowd Surfing
-- You may move through squares containing unwilling creatures, treating them as difficult terrain. You do not provoke opportunity attacks while moving in this way
(Design note: this does a number on the tactical positioning mini-game, so I'm not sure about using it. However, the image of an agile rogue stepping on her enemies heads is evocative.)

Edit: One more juicy idea

* Spellbreaker
-- As an attack, you may attack an ongoing spell effect within melee range. Roll to hit against 10 + the spell's level. On a hit, the attack dispels the magical effect.
-- The second time you gain this power, you gain advantage on your roll to attack. You may also attempt to disenchant magical items (but not artifacts) by attacking the magical energy stored in them: roll against 10 + the item's rarity modifier. Common items have a rarity modifier of +3, Uncommon items have a rarity modifier of +5, Rare items have a rarity modifier of +7, and legendary items have a rarity modifier of +9.

[Bobthewizard]

This wording is much better but I still think you should include wording that indicates that the bonus attacks from swarm fighting need to target different creatures, since I assume it is supposed to be used when you are facing multiple weaker creatures. I'm not too well versed on 5e encounter design, is the 1/2 CR limit a reasonable one to have? I found a lot of issues trying to use that wording in Pathfinder, CR is disturbingly unreliable.

I think you are right on the multiple targets, and changed the wording. CR should be fine in 5e. It's used as a mechanic in other abilities.


I am in strong agreement that discrete mechanical exceptions would help put martials on much more even footing with spellcasters. A few more suggestions for powers

* Demolition
-- Damage you deal to objects is doubled
-- Damage you deal to objects is doubled again
-- Damage you deal to objects is doubled again and you ignore resistance/immunity to bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage types.

* Power Lifter
-- The first time you acquire this power, you double your lift/carry capacity and may automatically force open wooden doors and containers
-- The second time you acquire this power, you double your lift/carry capacity again and may automatically force open metal doors and containers
-- The third time you acquire this power, you double your lift/carry capacity again and may automatically force open stone doors and containers

* Trample
-- As an action, you may steel yourself to trample your enemies. While trampling, you may make an opposed strength check to move into an enemy's square, displacing them to an adjacent square or knocking them prone (your choice). Enemies moved through in this way take 1d4+Str damage. At 5th level, the damage improves to 2d4, at 10th level, to 3d4 and at 15th level to 4d4.

* Crowd Surfing
-- You may move through squares containing unwilling creatures, treating them as difficult terrain. You do not provoke opportunity attacks while moving in this way
(Design note: this does a number on the tactical positioning mini-game, so I'm not sure about using it. However, the image of an agile rogue stepping on her enemies heads is evocative.)

Edit: One more juicy idea

* Spellbreaker
-- As an attack, you may attack an ongoing spell effect within melee range. Roll to hit against 10 + the spell's level. On a hit, the attack dispels the magical effect.
-- The second time you gain this power, you gain advantage on your roll to attack. You may also attempt to disenchant magical items (but not artifacts) by attacking the magical energy stored in them: roll against 10 + the item's rarity modifier. Common items have a rarity modifier of +3, Uncommon items have a rarity modifier of +5, Rare items have a rarity modifier of +7, and legendary items have a rarity modifier of +9.

These are great! Thanks. I think demolition and power lifter could be incorporated into grappler, one of the weaker Powers I have right now. I'm going to skip Trampler because I think it steps on the toes of the Charger Feat. I might incorporate crowd surfer into the Slippery Power as the first step. Then the BA teleport comes at step 2. The first spell breaker ability is a much more elegant way to say what I was trying to do with my second spell resistance Power. Its second ability might be too powerful. A 50% chance of destroying a legendary item seems too easy. But it's a neat idea. Thanks for all of these.

I updated Power Grappler (now just Powerful), Slippery, and Magic Resistance to incorporate these ideas.

[Skylivedk]

I think you are right on the multiple targets, and changed the wording. CR should be fine in 5e. It's used as a mechanic in other abilities.



These are great! Thanks. I think demolition and power lifter could be incorporated into grappler, one of the weaker Powers I have right now. I'm going to skip Trampler because I think it steps on the toes of the Charger Feat. I might incorporate crowd surfer into the Slippery Power as the first step. Then the BA teleport comes at step 2. The first spell breaker ability is a much more elegant way to say what I was trying to do with my second spell resistance Power. Its second ability might be too powerful. A 50% chance of destroying a legendary item seems too easy. But it's a neat idea. Thanks for all of these.

I updated Power Grappler (now just Powerful), Slippery, and Magic Resistance to incorporate these ideas.

I would delay spell-breaker with a step. Dispel on hit at level 4 is extremely powerful. Making it an attack roll also makes it super easy and favours the Battle Master

[Bobthewizard]

I would delay spell-breaker with a step. Dispel on hit at level 4 is extremely powerful. Making it an attack roll also makes it super easy and favours the Battle Master

Yes. I moved it to the second tier, so it would be advantage on saves at level 4 same as Yuan-ti, then 1/SR dispel magic at level 8 (6 for fighters). Spellcasters can have that with a spell save DC so it's not that much easier. Since it's moved to level 6 or 8, should we still increase the AC to hit?

[Skylivedk]

Yes. I moved it to the second tier, so it would be advantage on saves at level 4 same as Yuan-ti, then 1/SR dispel magic at level 8 (6 for fighters). Spellcasters can have that with a spell save DC so it's not that much easier. Since it's moved to level 6 or 8, should we still increase the AC to hit?

IMO, yes. With Bless and and Precision Strike/Bardic Inspiration/magic weapons (does this work with ranged weapons?) you're looking at some very very low DCs. It's all homebrew though so modifiable. If you stick to AC I'd have the default be somewhere between 12-15 + spell level... Or maybe 10+2*spell level. You probably don't want liches to lose mind blank at the first hit (random example)

[DarknessEternal]

Also, did you really need a 4th version of this same thread on the first page?

[noob]

Also, did you really need a 4th version of this same thread on the first page?

Yes we needed four threads for that so that we can explore four angles.

[KorvinStarmast]

I amuses me that on the GiTP boards we find posts complaining about the feats that a fighter can get (GWM, PAM, SENTINEL) as OP, and yet a concerted message is that Martials need buffing. :smallbiggrin:

[Bobthewizard]

I amuses me that on the GiTP boards we find posts complaining about the feats that a fighter can get (GWM, PAM, SENTINEL) as OP, and yet a concerted message is that Martials need buffing. :smallbiggrin:

I think they can both be true. My problem with those feats is that they encourage a very limited number of weapons. I'd prefer feats that encouraged more variety. I think they are OP at low levels but lose out to spellcasting at higher levels. Then these Powers are to try to give martial characters more ways to contribute other than just increasing single-target damage.

Right now, this Power system isn't something I'd want to add to the base rules all the time. It's something I'd offer to players in a high level campaign. "How would you all like to play martial characters if we gave them these bonuses, maybe starting at level 12-15 and going through level 20?" If the players were game, it would be a fun alternative to the high level game being overshadowed by spell casting.

So now I'm just asking for any new ideas to add to this. Some of the posts on here have had great ideas and have really helped me fine tune this. I'd love to hear your suggestions on things that might fit this proposed system and give more variety to martial characters. What are some abilities we could give to martial characters that would be fun to play?

[stoutstien]

I amuses me that on the GiTP boards we find posts complaining about the feats that a fighter can get (GWM, PAM, SENTINEL) as OP, and yet a concerted message is that Martials need buffing. :smallbiggrin:

its really not all that strange. all those feats are basically amount to more damage and damage is a very effective way at dealing with a lot if problems in the lower/mid part of the game where a lot of players see the most table time. at the same time damage is both boring and useless for anything that can't be fixed by hitting them. then at a certain point casters can also deal as much damage, or CC that is just as impactful, as the martials who spent a large number of ASI/Feats on trying to to at least have one thing they are really good at.

[Dienekes]

I amuses me that on the GiTP boards we find posts complaining about the feats that a fighter can get (GWM, PAM, SENTINEL) as OP, and yet a concerted message is that Martials need buffing. :smallbiggrin:

I think that says more about the feats than anything else. Those feats are better than just about any other at accomplishing a thing: damage (With some minor battlefield control on Sentinel).

And well a lot of the other feats that are available are pretty bad. Especially at the level you’d be getting them.

[Bobthewizard]

If it's ok with all of you, can we try to focus this thread on the proposal for a system of additional Powers for martial characters. There are other threads for discussing imbalance in general or the existing feats. I appreciate the comments and input but I'd like to keep this from veering into other discussions.

Do any of you have proposals for additional Powers we could add, or recommendations for adjustments to the ones presented in the first post? I'd love your input on that.