My PC Elf Sorlock is abusing Short-rest to create many Spell Slots. Is it legit?

[Barny]

I am hosting a game of lvl7, and one of my PC is Elf warlock 3/ sorcerer 4.

Whenever the party is taking long rest 8 hr in the tiny hut, the Sorlock PC always perform the following combos:

1. He uses 4 hr to finish long rest as an elf with Trance.
2. Right after he finishes long rest, with Flexible Casting he can use 4 sorcerer points to create 2 lvl1 temp spell slots (lasting until long rest).
3. He turns 2 lvl2 warlock pack magic slots into 4 sorcerer points, and then take 1hr short rest.
4. Keep repeating 2-3 and another short rest...

So after other PC taking 8hr long rest, he took 4hr long rest, 4 1hr short rest and created 8 lvl1 temp spell slots (lasting until long rest)....
Is this combo legit?

I did point out that 8hr long rest for Elf should be 4hr long rest and 4 hr light activities.
But he said flexible casting is not casting a spell or combat. And flexible casting only takes bonus actions as well. Therefore, flexible casting is light activities....
if I rule that he cannot perform this combo during long rest, he can still do this combo during traveling in the wagon.

Am I too harsh on this abusive combo? or it is perfectly legit?

[AHF]

From my read, he RAW can’t take short rests within the same time he is taking a long rest.

Beyond that this is a highly controversial technique that many, many tables have banned.

The real question is whether you want to allow this mechanic as the DM. I would not allow it at my table. There are many split the baby approaches DM have adopted to allow some use of this interaction. You could, for example, say that adventurers cannot benefit from more than two short rests between long rests so if he wants to use them both up on the wagon ride he can’t do it later in the day or use hit dice to heal before the next long rest, etc.

Others on here will have better ideas and suggestions.

[stoutstien]

You are the DM and only you can really know if any potentially abusive combo is detrimental in any given game.

The question is what is the player doing with all those low level spell slots that you see as a issue?

[Tvtyrant]

I am hosting a game of lvl7, and one of my PC is Elf warlock 3/ sorcerer 4.

Whenever the party is taking long rest 8 hr in the tiny hut, the Sorlock PC always perform the following combos:

1. He uses 4 hr to finish long rest as an elf with Trance.
2. Right after he finishes long rest, with Flexible Casting he can use 4 sorcerer points to create 2 lvl1 temp spell slots (lasting until long rest).
3. He turns 2 lvl2 warlock pack magic slots into 4 sorcerer points, and then take 1hr short rest.
4. Keep repeating 2-3 and another short rest...

So after other PC taking 8hr long rest, he took 4hr long rest, 4 1hr short rest and created 8 lvl1 temp spell slots (lasting until long rest)....
Is this combo legit?

I did point out that 8hr long rest for Elf should be 4hr long rest and 4 hr light activities.
But he said flexible casting is not casting a spell or combat. And flexible casting only takes bonus actions as well. Therefore, flexible casting is light activities....
if I rule that he cannot perform this combo during long rest, he can still do this combo during traveling in the wagon.

Am I too harsh on this abusive combo? or it is perfectly legit?
This is called the Coffeelock build, it is pretty old cheese.

I wouldn't let someone take a short rest during a long rest. I also wouldn't let anyone take multiple short rests in a row like that. A short rest is IMO the equivalent of a nap; multiple naps consecutively is just a night's sleep.

[Bobthewizard]

By RAW it works.

When I DM, though, I don't allow someone to create spell slots in excess of their base slots. Short rest warlock slots can be used to replenish but not exceed their base slots.

[Greywander]

I wouldn't let someone take a short rest during a long rest. I also wouldn't let anyone take multiple short rests in a row like that. A short rest is IMO the equivalent of a nap; multiple naps consecutively is just a night's sleep.
I just wanted to point out that when a character rests, there shouldn't be a need to decide ahead of time if it is a short or long rest. If they take a long rest, but are interrupted after at least an hour of rest, then they should be able to gain the benefits of a short rest at least. The thing about the coffeelock, specifically, is that they lose their extra spell slots at the end of a long rest, so it shouldn't matter.

In the case of the OP, the sorlock is taking a long rest first, then spending the rest of the time that the party is long resting taking short rests and creating extra spell slots. In that case, the sorlock has already taken their long rest, and by RAW, they can't take another long rest in the same day, so even if you did string together 8 short rests (or 4 for an elf) it could not turn into a second long rest.

As for ways of handling this, here's a couple options:

Is it making the game less fun for the other players? No? Then maybe just leave it be. It sounds like the player is having fun with this combo.
You could rule that Font of Magic can't give you more slots than your max, e.g. no more than four 1st level slots at a time.
Originally, elves needed 8 hours of rest, but only spent 4 hours unconscious. This was changed so that they only needed 4 hours of rest. You could change it back, in which case the extra slots would be lost at the end of the long rest.

[Dork_Forge]

I just wanted to point out that when a character rests, there shouldn't be a need to decide ahead of time if it is a short or long rest. If they take a long rest, but are interrupted after at least an hour of rest, then they should be able to gain the benefits of a short rest at least. The thing about the coffeelock, specifically, is that they lose their extra spell slots at the end of a long rest, so it shouldn't matter.

In the case of the OP, the sorlock is taking a long rest first, then spending the rest of the time that the party is long resting taking short rests and creating extra spell slots. In that case, the sorlock has already taken their long rest, and by RAW, they can't take another long rest in the same day, so even if you did string together 8 short rests (or 4 for an elf) it could not turn into a second long rest.

As for ways of handling this, here's a couple options:

Is it making the game less fun for the other players? No? Then maybe just leave it be. It sounds like the player is having fun with this combo.
You could rule that Font of Magic can't give you more slots than your max, e.g. no more than four 1st level slots at a time.
Originally, elves needed 8 hours of rest, but only spent 4 hours unconscious. This was changed so that they only needed 4 hours of rest. You could change it back, in which case the extra slots would be lost at the end of the long rest.


The intent for the rests is different though, a short rest might just be sitting down for a bit, having snacks, swigging from waterskins and taking a breather. Long rests would more involve the doffing and donning of armor, the making and breaking of camp, cooking etc. If you get interrupted one hour into a long rest, then you probably haven't actually been resting like you would have been during a short rest.

[Laserlight]

I'm away from books right now, but you could say that Sorc flexible casting doesn't interact with Warlock pact casting.

Although I think the first thing to do is see whether it's bugging anyone else. If none of the other players care, then I would let it slide.

[diplomancer]

The exploit works by RAW. But this is a 7th level full caster with 2nd level spells. Start to worry if they stop long resting altogether. What's the sorcerous origin, patron, and pact?

[Hael]

Coffee locking is obviously op, but converting a few unused slots after a short rest is not and pretty much rai.

Just reset the points after a long rest, and restrict the coffeelocking to one or two short rest after combat during the adventuring day (eg you can’t take a dozen short rests where you use the featur). Alternatively it can only be used once every four hours or so on Warlock slots.

[Veldrenor]

If by "legit" you mean "legal within the rules" then, sort of. As others have pointed out, it's called the coffeelock and is a known interaction between the warlock and sorcerer class abilities. However, RAW, you can't just take multiple short rests back-to-back-to-back. A short rest isn't 1 hour long, it's at least 1 hour long, and you don't gain the benefits of the short rest until it ends. So two hours spent relaxing isn't two short rests back-to-back, it's a single short rest that lasted two hours. He needs to do something strenuous to end each short rest, otherwise the short rest continues and he doesn't gain its benefits yet. Additionally:


I did point out that 8hr long rest for Elf should be 4hr long rest and 4 hr light activities.

Could you clarify this a little bit, because you say both "8hr long rest" and "4hr long rest" in the same sentence? Are you saying that:

you told him that a long rest is 8 hours long regardless and he must spend 4 hours trancing and 4 in light activity
or

you told him his long rest is 4 hours long as an elf but then he has to spend 4 hours in light activity (since everyone else is taking an 8 hour long rest and he shouldn't wake them)?
If it's the latter then he can definitely build up a few spell slots. If it's the former then he's wasting his time: the long rest kicks in at the end of the 8 hour period. So he trances for 4 hours, takes 4 consecutive "short rests" to build up slots, then the long rest completes and all the slots he just made vanish per the rules of the Flexible Casting ability.



Am I too harsh on this abusive combo?

As for this part, depends on the table. If everyone's still having fun (including you) then, like Greywander said, no need to change anything. If his larger number of low-level spell slots is making the game less fun for others, then it's time for a conversation with the player so you can work on a way to let him have his fun without ruining everyone else's.

[DwarfFighter]

I just wanted to point out that when a character rests, there shouldn't be a need to decide ahead of time if it is a short or long rest.

I disagree. You can score a short rest by just sitting down, but for a long rest you should make camp!

A short rest involves scarfing down a packed lunch. A long rest means cooking a meal.

A short rest is sitting on a rock or stretching out on the grass. A long rest means pitching a tent.

A short rest is taking a whizz in a bush. A long rest means digging a latrine.

A short rest is letting the horses graze. A long rest means brushing them down.

A short rest is letting the Bard try out some new material. A long rest means everybody shares a bit of their backstory and plans for the future.

Repeating a short rest eight times does not a long rest make.

In my opinion.

[Lunali]

I disagree. You can score a short rest by just sitting down, but for a long rest you should make camp!

A short rest involves scarfing down a packed lunch. A long rest means cooking a meal.

A short rest is sitting on a rock or stretching out on the grass. A long rest means pitching a tent.

A short rest is taking a whizz in a bush. A long rest means digging a latrine.

A short rest is letting the horses graze. A long rest means brushing them down.

A short rest is letting the Bard try out some new material. A long rest means everybody shares a bit of their backstory and plans for the future.

Repeating a short rest eight times does not a long rest make.

In my opinion.

The argument was more that if you do the things for a long rest, but get less than the necessary hours, you should be able to count it as a short rest at least.

[RSP]

The argument was more that if you do the things for a long rest, but get less than the necessary hours, you should be able to count it as a short rest at least.

Up to the DM, though I imagine this then prevents the continuing of the LR.

Either way, I don’t think this has anything to do with the OP’s question.

[Barny]

Thanks for your guys' input. I really appreciated it.

Here are my ideas:

1. I don't want to change rules in the middle of the campaign, so no house rule added.

2. Thx to you guys' reminder. The sorlock PC cannot take short rests during long rest period.
I mistakenly thought Elf's long rest was 4 hr only. But it's not. Elf's long rest is actually 4 hr meditation and 4hr light actiivties, which cannot be multiple short rest.
https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/rules-answers-september-2015#:~:text=The%20intent%20is%20no.,at%20least%20 8%20hours%20long.&text=Here's%20what%20this%20all%20means%20for%20an %20elf.

3. I think this flexible casting + pack magic combo creating temp lvl1 spell slots is acceptable. It's not game-breaking and much weaker than many legit combos like simulacrum + Wishes.
So I would allow PC to use it in short rest during the day, but not during the long rest period.

Any suggestions/feedback are welcome.

[JackPhoenix]

The player doesn't get to decide what counts as rest, the GM does. And the 4-hour figure for elves is a minimum, not maximum. You're free to declare that the entire 8-hour period counts as a single long rest, just like with everyone else, and he loses the extra slots at its end.

[RSP]

I’ll add that I’d recommend you make whatever rules you’re going to make, now, as it’s a very short hop from current shananagins to “hey, during the 3 days of downtime, I just SR and convert SPs into spell slots. I’m an elf and so don’t sleep, and won’t need a LR over that time. I now have 148 1st level slots 24 (hours) x 3 (days) x 2 (1st level slots per SR) + 4 (normal 1st level slots).”

[Lupine]

I think I have the solution. Remember that humans —on average— need 8 hours of sleep. This is reflected in how long rests take at least eight hours, in which no more than two hours may be spent standing watch. That means that the player characters need at least 6 hours of rest. Short, but as anyone who has done it can confirm, mostly functional.

So, to the Elf trait, Trance, does this “Elves don’t sleep. Instead they meditate deeply remaining semiconscious, for four hours a day... After resting this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.”
Note how it does not mention rests, especially in relation to how long they take.
Elves don’t get four hour long long-rests. Their long rests are the same 8 hours as everyone else, you just don’t have to spend six hours sleeping, but can spend two hours reading, or something similar, still standing watch for your 2 hours.

Some will say “Doesn’t that reduce the special feature of elves?” Yes, it does, but the race is already a powerful choice, even without it. Whenever there’s something like this, I advise you to look at the raw, and ask yourself, “if the devs had wanted to mean <what other person thinks>, is there a better, simpler way they could have written it.”
Here, the answer is yes: “<lore and fluff> ... as such, your long rests take four hours, rather than eight” is much simpler, and much clear.

EDIT: my ending qualification was ninja’d. Apparently, devs errata’d it to be the more clear option. I would still take my approach, because that combo is already strong. It doesn’t need extra bumps.

[RSP]

I think I have the solution. Remember that humans —on average— need 8 hours of sleep. This is reflected in how long rests take at least eight hours, in which no more than two hours may be spent standing watch. That means that the player characters need at least 6 hours of rest. Short, but as anyone who has done it can confirm, mostly functional.

So, to the Elf trait, Trance, does this “Elves don’t sleep. Instead they meditate deeply remaining semiconscious, for four hours a day... After resting this way, you gain the same benefit that a human does from 8 hours of sleep.”
Note how it does not mention rests, especially in relation to how long they take.
Elves don’t get four hour long long-rests. Their long rests are the same 8 hours as everyone else, you just don’t have to spend six hours sleeping, but can spend two hours reading, or something similar, still standing watch for your 2 hours.

This was errata’d to be “elves can LR in 4 hours”. Don’t have the exact wording in front of me now.

[Lupine]

This was errata’d to be “elves can LR in 4 hours”. Don’t have the exact wording in front of me now.

Heck. I have only first printing. Thanks.

[Lunali]

I go with the approach of limiting sorcerers to recovering slots only. It's a slight nerf in that it prevents them from getting a 4th and 5th level slot at level 6 and 7, but I don't particularly like that either, so I'm not too broken up about it.

As for the elf resting bit, I realize they got sage adviced (different from errata, but still considered official) to a 4hr long rest, but I instead do 4hr trance + 2hrs of light activity, like standing watch. This lets them long rest in 6hrs and still allows them to take two watches if they like, but also allows them some extra time for other activities if watches are well covered.

Edit for those that need it, the sage advice:

Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours? If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed.

[greenstone]

A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds.

[PHB, Chapter 8: Adventuring, Resting]

A short rest is not an hour - it is an hour or more with nothing strenouous taking place. If the character is not doing anything strenuous, then it is still the same rest.

My way of heading off coffeelocks is to rule that after 8 hours has passed, the sorcerer/warlock has had one rest, not five.

[MaxWilson]

The player doesn't get to decide what counts as rest, the GM does. And the 4-hour figure for elves is a minimum, not maximum. You're free to declare that the entire 8-hour period counts as a single long rest, just like with everyone else, and he loses the extra slots at its end.


[PHB, Chapter 8: Adventuring, Resting]

A short rest is not an hour - it is an hour or more with nothing strenouous taking place. If the character is not doing anything strenuous, then it is still the same rest.

My way of heading off coffeelocks is to rule that after 8 hours has passed, the sorcerer/warlock has had one rest, not five.

If it's been an hour since the warlock used up his spell slots, and he's been doing nothing but resting for that hour, he gets his slots back, full stop. No other ruling is consistent with the PHB text. To claim that the warlock was resting before he used his slots and therefore doesn't benefit from further rest is an abuse of a DM's authority to interpret the rules.

[micahaphone]

To the OP, I do encourage you to make a ruling or house rule to head this off if it doesn't sit right with you. Even if it's not declared OP it's still not what you're expecting or prepared for. I'm assuming the rest of your group doesn't min/max to this degree.

But you might want to offer your player a respec, so they can go pure sorc, pure warlock, or just 2 levels of warlock. Sorlork is a strong, optimized combo even without coffeelock cheese.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

It is RAW.

If no one complain about it just let the player have his fun.

It isn't broken or something like that. He still only have level 2 slots.

He is behind in terms of power, he only have quantitie.

[RSP]

As for the elf resting bit, I realize they got sage adviced (different from errata, but still considered official) to a 4hr long rest, but I instead do 4hr trance + 2hrs of light activity, like standing watch.


A new SA came out because of the errata to how LRs work. Here’s the errata:

“Long Rest (p. 186). The first sentence now reads, “A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps for at least 6 hours and performs no more than 2 hours of light activity, such as reading, talking, eating, or standing watch.”

Prior to the errata, the SA was “Elves still require 8 hours for a long rest.”

Post errata, it’s “4 hours of trance = 8 hours of sleep, so they get their 8 hours of LR in 4 hours.”

I don’t particularly care for the SA here, nor do I agree that the RAW matches what the SA ruling is. I personally feel giving Elf PCs 4 free hours of downtime creates more problems than its worth.

[Satori01]

Purple text = personal judgment which I don't expect you necessarily to share. YMMV.

MaxWilson...thank you for writing this disclaimer, and placing your post in purple text.
My mileage does indeed vary. 😜 This is a cheesy tactic, in my opinion.🧀

4 short rests, continuously placed together is 4 hours of resting ...this is plain math. An Elf by RAW, counts 4 hours of uninterrupted as a Long Rest.

What happens when one takes a Long Rest, Flexible Casting spell slots disappear.

Now, technically, one can not take 2 Long Rests in a 24 hour period, but when the rules are in conflict, the DM is the arbiter of the interaction between the rules.

Congratulations, the player just took 2 LR rests, can't take gain the benefits of another Long Rest until 48 hours has elapsed, because Trance *could* work this way, and gained no benefit for this scheme.

Since most other races need 6 hours of sleep for a Long Rest, if the player wants I would offer this scheme to be capped at one 4 hour Long Rest + 2 Short Rests.

Frankly even that is generous. Over resting in real life, leads to Exhaustion .

The 2nd level spell list has some great spells, some of the best.
This is not a minor power boost.

Restraint...is the best super power. Sometimes D&D players need to learn it.
D&D is a team game, this is *not* a team tactic, this is a "look how powerful I am " tactic.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

To the OP, talk to the player...the game is shared, but as the DM you can adjudicate this as being two Long Rests, so the player has to switch it up. Hopefully the player chooses restraint, so you might allow this occasionally when the game as a whole would benefit from this tactic.

[3leggedpup]

4 short rests, continuously placed together is 4 hours of resting ...this is plain math. An Elf by RAW, counts 4 hours of uninterrupted as a Long Rest.

I agree with the rest of your post, mostly, but this is incorrect. The rule change states that an elf that trances can count 4 hours as a long rest, but that an elf not trancing takes long rests the same as everyone else, i.e. 8 hours of no more than light activity. If the player was trying to use the Flexible Casting and Pact Magic features to cheese extra spell slots, they probably wouldn't be trying to trance twice in a row, nor would the elf be able to trance twice in a row if they were trying to. It would be considered a four-hour short rest, or else somewhere between 2-4 one-hour short rests, depending on how the DM and player determine where one short rest ends, and the other begins.

[Satori01]

they probably wouldn't be trying to trance twice in a row, nor would the elf be able to trance twice in a row if they were trying to. It would be considered a four-hour short rest, or else somewhere between 2-4 one-hour short rests, depending on how the DM and player determine where one short rest ends, and the other begins.

The details of Trance are left vague. This is a good thing, as the flavor can be changed. If a player, does not want to exercise restraint, there is nothing stopping a DM from saying that Elves that remain inactive for 4 hours *automatically* fall into their Trance state due to biology/magic etc.

This is why elves stay active, and have traditionally been depicted as being "flighty and mercurial". An inactive elf, will fall into a melancholic Trance and just ponder for an extended period of time. When you live 800 years, a little Rip Van Winkle action for 6 months is nothing.

The moral is work with your group. If the DM feels compelled to use the power of Narrative/Setting to restrain your actions, you might wish you had. 😇

(At the same time, details like this can make your campaign world very unique. Most campaigns have idiosyncratic elements, that when embraced, can be fun. Yes, sometimes these elements arise from the Plane of Nerf)

[Contrast]

My way of heading off coffeelocks is to rule that after 8 hours has passed, the sorcerer/warlock has had one rest, not five.

I mean this ruling doesn't really stop aything - it just makes it a little less efficient as you have to get up and do something strenuous every hour or so to 'break' the short rest. Simpler to just agree with the player about when it can and can't be used than trying to rule out edge cases like this in my opinion.

[DevilMcam]

The following is my personnal take on the issue, ymmv.

Your player seems to use a rather "fair" version of the cofeelock that does take long rest and stack extra slots but not an arbitrary high amount of them, so I'm not sure i wooluld completely shut that down.

As mentionned by others if they don't use it to overshadow others but to enable then i'd be more than happy to let them keep that extra bit of power.
As a player i tend to be very cautious about nit stepping on other PLAYER toes. And when the DM gives very strong custom magic items they often add a "only works on allies, excluding yourself" clause to keep the spotlight in check

If you still want to tone it down :
RAW : Trance only mention sleep, not resting.
Elves still need the same amount of time to rest than other party member they juste have more availlable tome during it to keep watch or prepare spells there is a sage advice validating that point.
For a normal human a 8h long rest is (afair) 6 hours sleep and 2 hours light activity. the light activity beeing part of the long rest.
For elves a 8h long rest is 4 hours trance and 4 hours light activity, but it still takes them 8 hours to long rest.

As per XGtE (also RAW) : Any character that doesn't take a long rest can be subject to exhaustion.

So a sorlock can't really accumulate slots unless you the DM say yes to it.

[diplomancer]

The following is my personnal take on the issue, ymmv.

Your player seems to use a rather "fair" version of the cofeelock that does take long rest and stack extra slots but not an arbitrary high amount of them, so I'm not sure i wooluld completely shut that down.

If you still want to tone it down :
RAW : Trance only mention sleep, not resting.
Elves still need the same amount of time to rest than other party member they juste have more availlable tome during it to keep watch or prepare spells there is a sage advice validating that point.
For a normal human a 8h long rest is (afair) 6 hours sleep and 2 hours light activity. the light activity beeing part of the long rest.
For elves a 8h long rest is 4 hours trance and 4 hours light activity, but it still takes them 8 hours to long rest.

As per XGtE (also RAW) : Any character that doesn't take a long rest can be subject to exhaustion.

So a sorlock can't really accumulate slots unless you the DM say yes to it.

An elf gets from trance the same benefits that a human gets from 8 hours of sleep.
What happens when a human sleeps for 8 hours? He gets a Long Rest. Therefore, an elf that trances gets a long rest at the end of the trance.

Also worth noting is that the Xanathar rule is explicitly designed to simulate the effects of lack of sleep. It does not apply to creatures, like Warforged, who don't need to sleep (it works the same as the rules in the PHB in that regard. PHB says that if you don't drink water, you get Exhaustion. It doesn't mention any exception to it. Obviously, it assumes that your character needs water, but if you have a trait that says you don't need water, then that rule does not apply).

Yes, the coffeelock works by RAW. Which is not a problem at all, since RAW does not have authority over the DM, who can just say "please don't do that" if it bothers him.

[Mikal]

Yes this is RAW
Yes this is legit
No it’s not broken. Your player sacrificed power for more low level slots.
There’s nothing wrong with it.

[Dork_Forge]

Yes this is RAW
Yes this is legit
No it’s not broken. Your player sacrificed power for more low level slots.
There’s nothing wrong with it.

Your assessment leaves a lot out, it's clearly rules cheese rather than design as intended and is a slippery slope:

-The player is choosing 1st level slots (which essentially means they can treat 1st level spells like cantrips), their peak power (highest level spells) is lower than full casters, but their stamina throughout the day is unrivaled

-The player is currently choosing 1st level slots, there's no reason they couldn't instead decide to do this with 2nd level slots instead, they're already capable of creating them afterall, their effective power across the day increases

-The party levels up to 8, assuming the player takes a 5th level in Sorcerer at this point, they now have 3rd level spells and the ability to create surplus 3rd level slots. Full casters may now be casting 4th level spells, but the Coffeelock is now casting 5+ 3rd level spells per day.

Flexible casting covers up to 5th level spells, a player that chooses to do this can certainly rocket in relative power compared to the party, they don't nova as hard due to lower level slots, but they perform at a higher average spell level across the day. Mix that with the combo having the potential to have the ever potent Eldritch Blast combos built into it and it can leave other players feeling overshadowed and adventuring days trivialised.

[Quietus]

How has no one suggested talking to the player? "Hey, I get that strictly by RAW, this is legal. However, I'm worried about where it's going down the road. It's already causing problems/has the potential to end up causing problems, where are you going with this?", followed by consideration, and if the answer to that is unacceptable to you, "Please stop".

[Pex]

Asking the player to stop is a problem in that the player built his character to do this. If he can't do this anymore he may not want to play the character anymore because there's no point. If you go this route this needs to be addressed.

[Quietus]

Did the player build with this in mind, or are they just taking advice from guides that are specifically giving them "This is the high-optimized way to do this"? Are they making abusive use of spell points to quick Eldritch Blasts all day long? Because if so, then.. well, it depends on the player. There's still plenty of optimization that can be done without stripping away a huge amount of resources the game did not intend to provide them. That's why I specifically built into my response that the DM needs to consider that answer - is the player being disruptive? Is this likely to become a bigger issue in the future? What specifically is the player looking for, and will it negatively impact the other players' enjoyment or the DM's ability to run a fun game? These are important things to consider, and there's definitely a line where a DM may have to say, "I'm sorry, but that is too much at this table".

[Eldariel]

The price he pays for this is 4th level and 3rd level spells. I'll guarantee you this is weaker than what he could be doing with those; sure he'll have a lot of low level slots but he doesn't have any high level spells on ECL 7. The point where it gets problematic is if he starts stacking them infinitely; that is, stops long resting and just keeps on stacking spell slots. But as long as he long rests, he nullifies his gained slots every day and in this regard, it shouldn't be at all problematic balance wise.

Now, if you feel it's dumb that's another matter; but given that's quite likely the only reason he would take 3 levels in Warlock, you might want to allow him to retrain at that point.

[AHF]

. you might want to allow him to retrain at that point.

Definitely. Laying down some parameters that prevent what you as the DM would consider abuse and then letting the player respec if they can’t live with that seems eminently fair.

[FabulousFizban]

tell him coffeelock is banned and to cut his **** or all his characters will be cursed with disadvantage.

[Kireban]

As long as he doesnt stop taking long rests it is fine. Sorcerers gain nothing from short rests, this way he is not salty after watching the others refresh abilities and spells.

[heavyfuel]

Asking the player to stop is a problem in that the player built his character to do this. If he can't do this anymore he may not want to play the character anymore because there's no point. If you go this route this needs to be addressed.

A player bringing a TO build to an actual game does need to be addressed.

"I know what you're doing is technically allowed by the rules, but it's way too strong and I'm banning it. Feel free to roll a new character."

Done

[KorvinStarmast]

A player bringing a TO build to an actual game does need to be addressed.

"I know what you're doing is technically allowed by the rules, but it's way too strong and I'm banning it. Feel free to roll a new character."

Done That's my take on this.

[diplomancer]

A player bringing a TO build to an actual game does need to be addressed.

"I know what you're doing is technically allowed by the rules, but it's way too strong and I'm banning it. Feel free to roll a new character."

Done

Yes, it's ok to ban it. No, I would not ban it if the character is Long Resting regularly. Yes, if you ban it, let him make a different character.

[Man_Over_Game]

Any suggestions/feedback are welcome.

I'd just put a cap on his spell slots and sorcery points.

It's a cool combo, and it'd still work for Short Rests and spells that he'd cast throughout the day, which is exactly what the Warlock's spells slots should be used for. Sorcerer simply adds more capacity to that battery. Having a lack of a cap to allow near-infinite overcharging of magic should be as acceptable as it sounds.

I'd still use that build, since converting spells over into long-term charges throughout the day is insanely versatile and powerful without overcharging.

Of course, you could just ask him not to do it.

[XmonkTad]

Now that we've hit page 2 I'm seeing the best reply which is "talk to your player". They probably read somewhere online that this is a really powerful build and now they just want to use it to play a powerful character.

I do think the way they are playing it (still takes long rests nightly, is not trying to build up NI spell slots) isn't overpowered, just quite potent. But the broken-ness is really dependent on what the power-level it is at your particular table. If it is not causing a problem (the other players are happy with someone who seems to be an endless supply of spells and dont feel like 5th wheels because their characters are interesting and fun in different ways) then simply take the coffelock as an interesting quirk of the game and let them have their fun.

If your coffelock is trivializing encounters and making the rest of the party feel useless, then it's time to tell them "your patron and your bloodline got in a fight, and even though they'll both give you spells, they aren't interchangeable anymore". RAW there are some ways to do this, but DM-fiat with a retraining option will save you the headache of sifting through the resting rules looking for interpretations that disallow their combo.

Also, consider buffing other players with items and boons. If one of them is having fun with a power fantasy character, let everyone in on the fun!

[MaxWilson]

For those who are averse to the idea of theoretically-unlimited spell slots (even though in practice the player is not pursuing that and is unlikely to pursue it), one fun solution might be to for excess spell slots to pose a risk of "leaking." E.g. if you add spell slots above your normal maximum, make a Charisma save with DC equal to level of the slot x number of slots you are over the normal maximum, and if you fail, the extra slots all come tumbling down like a Jenga tower and convert themselves into Wild Surges.

Example: the PC in question is a Sorc 4/Warlock 2, so he can normally have slots 4/3. If he uses the short rest trick to gain two extra 2nd level slots after a short rest, he'll go to 4/4 (DC 2 Cha save) and then 4/5 (DC 4 Cha save), and so on. If eventually he were already at 4/10 slots and he tried adding another 2nd level slot (4/11), he'd be 8 levels over the normal 2nd level maximum, so he'd have to make a DC 16 Cha save, or else he goes back to 4/3 slots, and the extra 8 slots turn to 8 wild surges, simultaneously.

[Willie the Duck]

A game like D&D (or certainly at least Wotc-era D&D), where a certain amount of character-build-making and system mastery is considered part and parcel with the gaming experience, there's always going to be a rather tenuous line where something is 'too cheesy.' The game is asking/expecting you to go poking about for optimal builds and loopholes, yet pretty much everyone has some limit where it switches from "neat find!," to, "yeah, yeah, you found where the system breaks down. Quit screwing around and build something you actually expect we'll let you play." Sometimes the actual power level isn't the deciding factor. Infinite or near-infinite loops is definitely something I've seen before as no-go zones and can get behind as a guideline.

However, I am in agreement with those who have said that the OP's player is choosing not to do the truly abusive levels of this build, and so the whole thing appears to be more of a paper tiger. If they were to start down this line, just clarify that it would make the game unfun for others, and let them rework their build. Fun is the primary metric as to whether the game is a success, not some axiomatic concept of how things are supposed to work.

[Barny]

I talked with the PC, saying "Elf need 4hrs of meditation and 4hrs of light activities for long rest. So he cannot take short rest during long rest."

However, the PC proves that Elf can actually finish long rest in 4hr.
According to 2019 Sage Advice Compendium "https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf"
"Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?
If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed"

So during 8hr inside the tiny hut, he can actually finish long rest, then take some short rests by RAW...

Then we confirm that he's right about Elf's 4hr long rest, but I checked RAW "Short Rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long...."
As a result, the short rest duration is not necessarily 1 hour sharp. So his short rest duration can be 1hr, 2hr or even 4hr.. up to DM's call.
Finally, we have an agreement that he can do this trick after 4hr long rest. But we will roll 1d4 hours for his short rest duration. Hopefully, we can make it fair for everyone.

[Eldariel]

I talked with the PC, saying "Elf need 4hrs of meditation and 4hrs of light activities for long rest. So he cannot take short rest during long rest."

However, the PC proves that Elf can actually finish long rest in 4hr.
According to 2019 Sage Advice Compendium "https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf"
"Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?
If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed"

So during 8hr inside the tiny hut, he can actually finish long rest, then take some short rests by RAW...

Then we confirm that he's right about Elf's 4hr long rest, but I checked RAW "Short Rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long...."
As a result, the short rest duration is not necessarily 1 hour sharp. So his short rest duration can be 1hr, 2hr or even 4hr.. up to DM's call.
Finally, we have an agreement that he can do this trick after 4hr long rest. But we will roll 1d4 hours for his short rest duration. Hopefully, we can make it fair for everyone.

I'd argue it's not broken anyways as long as he long rests. Just compare:
Sorcerer 7
4/3/3/1 spell slots

7 sorcery points

Warlock 3/Sorcerer 4
4/3+2 spell slots

4 sorcery points

He gets 4 extra short rests so 8 level 2 Warlock slots to convert into sorcery points (plus two floating afterwards). So 16 extra sorcery points, which converts into eight 1st level slots or five 2nd level slot. Level 7 Sorc effectively has 13 fewer sorcery points or 6 first level slots/4 second level slots. If level 7 Sorc converted all their higher level slots into sorcery points, they'd have the same 13. In other words, the only advantage the Sorlock has are the two 2nd level spell slots from Warlock.

The balance? Sorcerer 7 has access to Polymorph, Haste, Fireball, Hypnotic Pattern, etc. (not to mention, more spells known) Sorc can actually make pretty good use of converting their lower level slots into 3rd/4th/5th level slots and then casting those higher level spells. I'd say Sorc 7's spells are better enough that it's the stronger of the two, not on the contrary. Yes, Warlock 3/Sorc 4 has a lot of low level slots and benefits of short rests (feature, not a bug) but Sorc 7 can just cast some of the best spells in the spell while Warlock 3/Sorc 4 is still casting 2nd level spells.


But I'm glad you got it worked out and I hope it'll be enjoyable for everybody.

[nickl_2000]

Legit, questionable. Cheesy, yes pretty much the height of cheese. This is munchkin level cheese (at least in my opinion).

In my current campaign setup my DM made it very clear that this wasn't allowed. The phrase "death to coffeelocks" was used in the setup document.


The issue is that the player has clearly build a PC around this and you allowed it up until now. If you are annoyed by it, I would discuss it with the player outside of the game and tell them that it is reducing your fun and you aren't going to allow it anymore. Then allow them a rebuild or a new character. Or you deal with it for now and make sure you say it isn't allowed in future games.

[Aimeryan]

I talked with the PC, saying "Elf need 4hrs of meditation and 4hrs of light activities for long rest. So he cannot take short rest during long rest."

However, the PC proves that Elf can actually finish long rest in 4hr.
According to 2019 Sage Advice Compendium "https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf"
"Does the Trance trait allow an elf to finish a long rest in 4 hours?
If an elf meditates during a long rest (as described in the Trance trait), the elf finishes the rest after only 4 hours. A meditating elf otherwise follows all the rules for a long rest; only the duration is changed"

So during 8hr inside the tiny hut, he can actually finish long rest, then take some short rests by RAW...

Then we confirm that he's right about Elf's 4hr long rest, but I checked RAW "Short Rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long...."
As a result, the short rest duration is not necessarily 1 hour sharp. So his short rest duration can be 1hr, 2hr or even 4hr.. up to DM's call.
Finally, we have an agreement that he can do this trick after 4hr long rest. But we will roll 1d4 hours for his short rest duration. Hopefully, we can make it fair for everyone.

I'm surprised the player did not just point out that strenuous activity ends a rest period and then just proceed to do a minute (or less) of strenuous activity after every hour. If the other players are not willing to wait an extra couple of minutes to finish his last Short Rest (which they probably are because some of them will have to don armour, prep spells, etc.), then he would get one less Short Rest (or have to catch up with the party). Other than that, he really should be able to get his all his Short Rests, by RAW.

As for spirit/balance, I'm with Eldariel here; the Coffee Lock-lite (Decaff Lock?) that is going on here (4 Short Rests worth of converting) results in only a +3 Sorcery Point gain over the lost 3 Sorcerer levels of a pure Sorcerer. This is one level 1 Spell Slot and a spare Sorcery Point gain. In exchange, they lose 3 Caster Levels (which is one or two Spell Levels, depending on odd or even Caster Level). I would hardly call this game breaking in favour of the Coffee Lock-lite!

The real strength of the Sorlock combo is the Quickened Agonising (Repelling) Eldritch Blast [QAREB] for low-cost high-damage to a single high-priority target, and Agonising (Repelling) Eldritch Blast on easier targets to save on Spell Slots. Basically, efficiency is the strength - however, lesser one-round potency is the weakness. Factoring this in makes the trade-off favourable in certain circumstances (although it still hurts at certain level points), however, this is 99% due to QAREB.

In a game where Long Rests were not frequent and Short Rests were frequent I would likely prefer the 4 Sorc, 3 Lock over the 7 Sorc. In your average 5-Min Work DayTM, I would definitely prefer the 7 Sorc - efficiency simply isn't going to be an issue. Looking at higher levels, around Sorc 11 taking levels in Warlock has far less of a trade-off (Spell Slot gain and Spells Known gain for Sorcerer decrease rapidly at this point), however, efficiency also becomes less of an issue so the benefits are also lessened. In any case, I would not see the Coffee Lock-lite described above as an issue.

Now, full on Coffee Lock, sure, do something about that if it comes up!

[Throne12]

No that's not how the elf trances work. The trance replace sleeping. But the elf still needs a long rest. A long rest isnt sleeping.

[Aimeryan]

No that's not how the elf trances work. The trance replace sleeping. But the elf still needs a long rest. A long rest isnt sleeping.

Already dealt with in the thread, TL;DR: SAC specifies that the 4 hour trance counts as a Long Rest.

[diplomancer]

No that's not how the elf trances work. The trance replace sleeping. But the elf still needs a long rest. A long rest isnt sleeping.

If a human sleeps for eight hours, does he get the benefits of a Long Rest?

Because trance says elves get from trancing for 4 hours the same benefits humans get from 8 hours of sleep.

That is the reasoning of the SAC.

[Nagog]

This build is known as the Coffeelock. By Warlock 3 he'll likely pick up Pact of the Tome and Aspect of the Moon so he can mass produce the short rest spells all night long. By RAW, it works. Whether or not you allow it in your game is entirely up to you. Keep in mind that they are limiting themselves to 1st level spell slots for now, and all their spell slots are reset every time they take a long rest (hence why Aspect of the Moon is essential to really breaking the game with this build). If you decide to disallow this, here are some suggestions for how to pull it off:

Aspect of the Moon says you don't need sleep, but when you rest you spend the time doing light activity. While this light activity can be taking short rests and the like, spending a night doing that counts as a long rest and it resets your spell slots to base full, no excess. Not taking this long rest still imposes exhaustion, just as not sleeping for any other character would (by most DM rulings, by RAW there really isn't a penalty for not taking long rests)

Or just tell them that you disallow it. Nipping it in the bud is always best, I had a Hexblade that was planning on using a PAM/GWM combo, and when he informed me that was his plan I told him that I do not allow that particular combo. (My feelings are that GWM is intended to be high risk, high reward, with PAM's bonus action 1d4 being a smidgen of damage anyway, that negates the high risk aspect and cheeses the intent of GWM). I explained that he could pick them both up, as they are both great feats to have, buthe could not use GWM on the Bonus Action attack from PAM. With that in mind, he chose something else. The same principle stands here: Let them know how you feel and why you're ruling against it (they likely already know why it's likely to be disallowed). Sorlock is a great combo regardless, so informing them of this ruling won't ruin their build at all.

[Demonslayer666]

I am hosting a game of lvl7, and one of my PC is Elf warlock 3/ sorcerer 4.

Whenever the party is taking long rest 8 hr in the tiny hut, the Sorlock PC always perform the following combos:

1. He uses 4 hr to finish long rest as an elf with Trance.
2. Right after he finishes long rest, with Flexible Casting he can use 4 sorcerer points to create 2 lvl1 temp spell slots (lasting until long rest).
3. He turns 2 lvl2 warlock pack magic slots into 4 sorcerer points, and then take 1hr short rest.
4. Keep repeating 2-3 and another short rest...

So after other PC taking 8hr long rest, he took 4hr long rest, 4 1hr short rest and created 8 lvl1 temp spell slots (lasting until long rest)....
Is this combo legit?

I did point out that 8hr long rest for Elf should be 4hr long rest and 4 hr light activities.
But he said flexible casting is not casting a spell or combat. And flexible casting only takes bonus actions as well. Therefore, flexible casting is light activities....
if I rule that he cannot perform this combo during long rest, he can still do this combo during traveling in the wagon.

Am I too harsh on this abusive combo? or it is perfectly legit?

The way I run my game is that a long rest is completed after 8 hours, not when you are done sleeping. So elves need to trance for 4 hours and then do 4 hours of light activity. I would not allow short rests during the long rest.

Remember that multi-classing is an optional rule, you don't have to play with it in the future.

During my session 0 I called out multi-classing that I felt was too cheesy, and did not want played. Specifically sorcerer/warlock combos.

If I found myself in your situation, where I had to deal with it after it popped up, I would look at the problem it's causing, and find a solution by discussing with the player how it's affecting the game, and what you want to fix. I could see this being an issue of overshadowing the other players.