Ruminantions on Summon Monster

[Aotrs Commander]

So, as part of the final crossing of the 't's for 3.Aotrs, I have been working on copying up (and making any necessary tweaks) to by summon bestiary (wherein all stats for any creature called by any spell/class ability etc will live). I've got everything done apart from Summon Monster, which I've started,

As I hit about Summon Monster V, - the point at which I hit where I didn't already basically have the stat blocks in place because they were called by something else - it really started to bug me the somewhat electic mix.

Half the monsters are common to the Summon Nature's Ally list and of the others, there's a real odd skew to the base list in terms of the stuff unique to it. Five evil outsiders (two lawful, one chaotic) and one good outsider. That really seemed off. Now, I know wizards don't care, but it bugs me that clerics are kind shafted, since they DO. Plus I feel good wizards shouldn't have to have to always resort to "Marginally Better Than The Druid" or "demon-summoning;" Angel Summoner ought to be something they maybe ought to be able to do outside of parody...!

So, I'm starting to take much closer look at the Summon Monster lines, and I'm not sure I entirely like what I see. Because even at the last sodding minute, I apparently can't not make work for myself...1

I started looking through various guides at the value of the summons.

Now, as PF is complete, there are a LOT more options. I'm starting to consider that maybe at most levels (starting from where there's point), there should be at least one outsider for at least the moral spectrum (LE/NE/CE and LG/NG/CG)2.

Particularly as Demons/Devils/Daemons have that triad thing going and Daemons in particular are notably absent from the lists.

The Summon Good/Evil (etc monsters feats) seem like generally a waste (especially at bottom level), since aside from getting a (PF-vanilla) paff feat on top, half the time, it's just what you get access to normally, so I'd much rather modify directly the base Summon Monster lists - because I can where Paizo was kind stuck with either bloating the list or doing what they did by exceptions.

So, I figure that maybe Summon Monster base lists ought to be trimmed a bit and get rid of some of the chaff monsters (i.e. the ones that ther are Clearly Better Options for), so there's a little more room (and less page-count!) for adding (where feasible) at least a Demon/Evil/Daemon/Azata/Angel/Agathion of the same CR (or at least 2/3 of the latter trio). Get rid of some of the animals (the elementals can stay, obviously, as can the Best Options, the swimmers and fliers - though to some extent the latter might be feasibly replaced) and try and differentiate Summon Monster a little more from Summon Nature's Ally. (And Summon Undead is already its own special third pillar (or 4th if you count Astral Construct.)



Thoughts on this? Is ti worth it? Pitfalls, suggestions etc.

Obviously, it does mean a load more stats in my Summon Bestiary (though there's already some overlap already - the modfied Call Faithful Servants already had already called for Lyrakiens Azata and Silvanshee Agathion stats, so parking Cacodaemons to make one for everyone (well, Devils et Lemures on Summon II, but...!)), but it might mean the removal of some [creature], celestial/fiendish addendums.

I don't particulalry feel that anyone who is big into summoning is likely so attached to summoning divine animals that they'd be a loss there (one feels if you wanted animals particularly, you'd be doing Druid).

General ruminations and discussions forthwith welcomed, as well as any suggestions.



1Resisting - barely - the urge to adding my specific campaign world's third material for fighting neutral outsiders (Alum Bronze) into the base system, and only didn't since pretty much only daemons had a material-plus-alignment DR and tit wasn't consistent even with the others (given both angels and agathions only have aligned DR.)

2The C/L/N side doesn't really have as much pull, nor nearly so many readly available options as far as I'm aware. For goods, you get Agathions/Angel/Azatas to match the evil trio with as much varity in CR, but the others tend not to; there's decidedly less Proteans/Psycopomps.I'nveitables. You probably could do it, but I feel that would be bloating the lists more and if anyone actually wanted to play up the Law/Chaos over the Good/Evil angle... Well, I have already parcelled off a variant of Summon Monster which allows you to summon Resulte/Entropic, but which is not the default, because I genuinely don't expect my players, at least, to ever care about that slant, since we play either Good+Neutral Vrs Evil or Evil Vrs Good+Neutral so I think that stating out that in my summon Bestiary would be bloat beyond the point of probably practical use.)

[stack]

Really, I think how you approach summon monster depends on your bestiary. 3.pf bestiaries were all over the map as far as balance verses CR. If you are tighter on monster design and build in abuse prevention into the rules (blocking summons casting spells higher than the level they are summoned with, ending long duration effects when the summon spell ends, etc.), you could break the spells down into summon celestial, summon fiend, summon beast, summon elemental, etc., then have a CR cap for each level of spell.

Yes, this is what PF2 does, but I didn't want to lead with that since the specific details may be helpful even if for those who dislike PF2 overall.

[Aotrs Commander]

Really, I think how you approach summon monster depends on your bestiary. 3.pf bestiaries were all over the map as far as balance verses CR. If you are tighter on monster design and build in abuse prevention into the rules (blocking summons casting spells higher than the level they are summoned with, ending long duration effects when the summon spell ends, etc.),

An example of the former that particulalry stick out?




you could break the spells down into summon celestial, summon fiend, summon beast, summon elemental, etc., then have a CR cap for each level of spell.

That seems like a huge amount of pointless spell-list bloat - that would INCREASE the amount of spells and mean multiple lists. I really, really don't see the point of having multiple spells where one would do. Druid and wizard/cleric having access to different creatures makes sense, and my own inherent bias likes Summon Undead as further seperate, but more than that is space-wasteful.



Or, if it makes is open-ended in allowing people to select ANYTHING of that category of the CR? That is emphatically a terrible idea on severals levels, not least of which is that it means you have to have the stats for EVERY. SINGLE. MONSTER. Just in case, which is insane in any system.

3.5 and Wild Shape'/Polymorph pretty much proved what a terrible idea that was; and while I'm willing to be more leneant than PF was on shapeshifting, I still hard-capped it. (I split the difference - you can basically have a fixed number of forms you can change into like 3.5, but outside that, you basically either get PF version or you take the lowest stats of yours and the creature's.)

Open-ended, unlimited stuff is the absolute worst thing for sensible rules mechanics as by definition; it's the starting point for the worst abuses and/or cheese.

(See: Wild Shape, Polymorph, the Sarrukh, Wish, the oft-touted primacy of Shadow spells etc etc.

Hell, I would ditch Wish/Miracle without a second thought entirely if they weren't ubiqitously used as a cure-all for stuff.)

[Unavenger]

Yeah, I would recommend making it so that there's at least some kind of good outsider, preferably one for each alignment but it's not totally necessary, at each level, but obviously that's a lot of work. The celestial/fiendish thing is definitely a copout for them to vaguely imply this sort of thing as possible without actually making it possible.

Of course, part of me would prefer having a build-a-summon system much like astral construct, but I'm not sure how viable that is and whether it's more work or less work than just making something for each level.

[Aotrs Commander]

Yeah, I would recommend making it so that there's at least some kind of good outsider, preferably one for each alignment but it's not totally necessary, at each level, but obviously that's a lot of work. The celestial/fiendish thing is definitely a copout for them to vaguely imply this sort of thing as possible without actually making it possible.

Of course, part of me would prefer having a build-a-summon system much like astral construct, but I'm not sure how viable that is and whether it's more work or less work than just making something for each level.

I have genunitely considered doing that for my homebrew campaign world (which does not use either edition's bestiaries) for elementals, but I think it's probably more effort than grabbing the stats for here.

[Unavenger]

I have genunitely considered doing that for my homebrew campaign world (which does not use either edition's bestiaries) for elementals, but I think it's probably more effort than grabbing the stats for here.

Elementals are already fine 'cause they have a variety of different sizes for different CRs, mind you. I'm mostly wondering if making a build-an-angel is easier than making lower-CR angels for every summon spell or even most of them.

EDIT: Although I suppose that still means you have to have an angel of each level if you do that. Maybe have a build-an-outsider so you can use one statblock for whatever angel, demon, devil, yugaloth or whatever outsider you want to summon just by picking the right traits to make that happen?

[Unavenger]

Okay, so this is what happens when I get bored and decide to do a mashup of various rules to make a redo of Summon Monster that may or may not be helpful. Feel free to take whatever bits of it work for you.

Summon Monster I
School Conjuration (Summoning) [See Text]
Level CLASSES1 1
CASTING
Casting Time 1 full-round action2
Components M, S, DF/F (A small bag and a tiny candle)
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one summoned creature
Duration 1 round, plus 1 round/level (D)2
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

This spell summons an extraplanar creature. It appears where you designate and acts on your next turn2. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions.

You have two options when you cast the spell: either you can summon one of the creatures from the 1st-level list on Table: Summon Monster, or you can summon a first-level custom monster (see below). You choose which kind of creature to summon, and you can choose a different one each time you cast the spell.

A summoned monster cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. Creatures summoned using this spell cannot use spells or spell-like abilities that duplicate spells with expensive material components (such as wish).

When you use a summoning spell to summon a creature with an alignment or elemental subtype, it is a spell of that type. Creatures on Table: Revised Summon Monster marked with an “*” are summoned with one template of your choice of up to two templates matching your alignment: celestial if you are good, fiendish if you are evil, resolute if you are lawful, entropic if you are chaotic, or counterpoised if you are any neutral alignment.3 Creatures marked with an “*” always have an alignment that matches yours, regardless of their usual alignment. Summoning these creatures makes the summoning spell’s type match your alignment.

Summon Monster II
School Conjuration (Summoning) [See Text]
Level CLASSES1 2

This spell works as Summon Monster I except that it allows you to summon one monster from the 2nd-level list, 1d3 monsters from the 1st-level list, or one second-level custom monster4.

Summon Monster K
School Conjuration (Summoning) [See Text]
Level: CLASSES1 K, SUMMONER_PROBABLY K-1

This spell works as Summon Monster I exect that it allows you to summon one monster from the Kth-level list, 1d3 monsters from the [K-1]-level list, 1d4+1 monsters from the [K-2]-level list, or one Kth-level custom monster.4



The following table lists summonable monsters and the descriptors the spell has when you summon those monsters. When you summon an elemental or mephit using this spell, the spell's descriptors are any of the creature's subtypes that is also a valid spell descriptor.

Table: Revised Summon Monster



1st-level monsters
2nd-level monsters
3rd-level monsters


Creature
Descriptors
Creature
Descriptors
Creature
Descriptors


Dog*
Alignment
Atomie
None
Arbiter Inevitable
Lawful


Dolphin*
Alignment
Brownie
None
Augur Kyton
Evil, Lawful


Eagle*
Alignment
Elemental (Small)
Subtypes
Blink Dog
None


Sprite
None
Faun
None
Cacodaemon
Evil


Stirge
None
Fuath
None
Crocodile*
Alignment


Vulture*
Alignment
Grig (No fiddle)
None
Dire Bat*
Alignment




Lemure
Evil, Lawful
Doru Div
Evil




Octopus*
Alignment
Dretch
Chaotic, Evil




Pseudodragon
None
Foo Dog
Good




Pugwampi
None
Howler
Chaotic, Evil




Squid*
Alignment
Nosoi Psychopomp
None




Wolf*
Alignment
Lantern Archon
Good, Lawful






Lyrakien Azata
Chaotic, Good






Paracletus Aeon
None






Shark*
Alignment






Sylvanshee Agathion
Good






Thoqqua
Earth, Fire






Tripurasura
Evil, Lawful






Voidworm Protean
Chaotic


4th-level monsters
5th-level monsters
6th-level monsters


Creature
Descriptors
Creature
Descriptors
Creature
Descriptors


Aghash Div
Evil
Babau Demon
Chaotic, Evil
Chaos Beast
Chaos


Dire Wolf*
Alignment
Bearded Devil
Evil, Lawful
Efreeti
Fire


D'Zirak
None
Bralani Azata
Chaotic, Good
Elemental (Huge)
Subtypes


Elemental (Medium)
Subtypes
Catrina Psychopomp
None
Erinyes Devil
Evil, Lawful


Faerie Dragon
None
Djinni
Air
Invisible Stalker
Air


Grizzly Bear*
Alignment
Elemental (Large)
Subtypes
Legion Archon
Good, Lawful


Giant Eagle*
Alignment
Kyton
Chaotic, Evil
Lillend Azata
Chaotic, Good


Hell Hound
Evil, Lawful
Lurker in Light
None
Pairaka Div
Evil


Kelpie
None
Mercane
None
Naunet Protean
Chaotic


Magmin
Fire
Rast
Fire
Shadow Demon
Chaotic, Evil


Mephit (Any)
Subtypes
Salamander
Evil, Fire
Soul Eater
Evil


Pixie
None
Shadow Mastiff
Evil
Succubus Demon
Chaotic, Evil


Schir Demon
Chaotic, Evil
Tojanida
Water
Theletos Aeon
None


Shae
None
Vulpinal Agathion
Good
Vanth Psychopomp
None


Viduus Psychopomp
None
Xill
Evil




Yeth Hound
Evil






Zebub Devil
Evil, Lawful






7th-level monsters
8th-level monsters
9th-level monsters


Creature
Descriptors
Creature
Descriptors
Creature
Descriptors


Axiomite
Lawful
Barbed Devil
Evil, Lawful
Akhana Aeon
None


Bebilith Demon
Chaotic, Evil
Baregara
Chaotic, Evil
Astral Deva
Good


Bone Devil
Evil, Lawful
Dorvae
Evil
Couatl
None


Elemental (Greater)
Subtypes
Elemental (Elder)
Subtypes
Derghodaemon
Evil


Jyoti
None
Hamatula Devil
Evil, Lawful
Ghaele Azata
Chaotic, Good


Leukodaemon
Evil
Hezrou Demon
Chaotic, Evil
Glabrezu Demon
Chaotic, Evil


Movanic Deva
Good
Imrenesh Protean
Chaotic
Ice Devil
Evil, Lawful


Sacristan Kyton
Evil, Lawful
Lammasu
None
Leonal Agathion
Good


Shedu
None
Meladaemon
Evil
Morrigna Psychopomp
None


Shield Archon
Good, Lawful
Monadic Deva
Good
Nalfeshnee Demon
Chaotic, Evil


Shoki Psychopomp
None


Sepid Div
Evil


Vrock (Demon)
Chaotic, Evil


Trumpet Archon
Lawful, Good


Zelekhut Inevitable
Lawful


Thanadaemon
Evil






Valkyrie
None



Custom Monsters

If you wish to make your own monsters for summoning, you can do so using this system. The following table determines many of the base statistics of the summoned monster.



Spell
HD
BAB
Good Saves
Poor Saves

Natural Armour

STR
DEX
CON
INT
WIS
CHA
Custom Points


I
1
+1
+2
+0
+2

12
12
12
4
10
10
1


II
2
+2
+3
+0
+4

14
14
14
6
10
10
2


III
3
+3
+3
+1
+4

16
16
14
8
10
12
4


IV
5
+5
+4
+1
+6

16
16
16
10
12
12
6


V
7
+7
+5
+2
+6

18
18
16
12
12
14
8


VI
9
+9
+6
+3
+8

18
18
18
14
14
14
11


VII
11
+11
+7
+3
+10

20
20
18
14
14
16
14


VIII
13
+13
+8
+4
+12

20
20
20
16
16
16
17


IX
15
+15
+9
+5
+14

22
22
20
16
16
18
20



The hit dice listed on the table are outsider hit dice. You choose two good saves, and the other save is a poor save. You also choose the four extra class skills for the outsider hit dice.

Each summoned monster has the extraplanar subtype, and also has one of the following subtypes, as well as the subtypes listed after it in parentheses: Aeon, Agathion (Good), Angel (Good), Archon (Good, Lawful), Asura (Chaotic, Evil), Azata (Chaotic, Good), Daemon (Evil), Demodand (Chaotic, Evil), Daemon (Evil), Demon (Chaotic, Evil), Devil (Evil, Lawful), Div (Evil), Elemental (Any one of Air, Cold, Earth, Fire, and Water), Inevitable (Lawful), Kyton (Lawful, Evil), Protean (Chaotic), Psychopomp, Qlippoth (Chaotic, Evil).

If the monster has the air, earth or water subtype, it gains a fly (perfect maneuverability), burrow or swim speed, respectively, of 30 ft. If the monster's subtypes would grant it regeneration, they don't.

Initially, the monster is a medium or small creature; if small, it gains a +2 size bonus to dexterity and a -2 size penalty to strength. You may pay 3 custom points to make the creature large (+4 STR -4 DEX), or 7 cutom points to make it huge (+8 STR -8 DEX). The monster also possesses a natural weapon (or pair of natural weapons) appropriate to its size: a bite, gore, or tail slap, or two claws, slams, stings or talons. From summon monster III onwards, the creature possesses a second natural weapon (or pair of natural weapons).

The following abilities may be purchased with the summoned monster's custom points. You may spend points in any number of ways, even on multiple uses of the same ability where relevant.

Damage Reduction: For each point spent, the monster gains DR 1, ignored by one alignment of your choice opposed to one of the creature's alignment subtypes, or its existing DR (of any kind) increases by 1. If the creature has no alignment subtypes, instead it gains DR 1 ignored by any two alignments (that is, the DR is bypassed by an attack treated as chaotic and good but also would be ignored by one treated as evil and lawful, or even one treated as chaotic and lawful) or its existing DR (of any kind) increases by 1.

Energy Attack: For each point spent, the monster deals 1 point of damage of your choice of acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic damage with each claw, slam, sting or talon attack and 2 points with each bite, gore or tail slap attack.

Equipped: By spending 1 point, the monster is summoned with one or more nonmagical simple or martial weapons and enough nonmagical ammunition to last for the duration. By spending 1 point, the monster is summoned with a nonmagical shield. By spending 1 point, the monster is summoned with nonmagical light armour. By spending 2 points, the monster is summoned with nonmagical medium armour. By spending 3 points, the monster is summoned with nonmagical heavy armour. This equipment is of its ordinary material. For each point spent, the monster's weapons, or its armour, or its shield becomes magical +1 equipment, or the enhancement bonus of its weapons, its armour or its shield increases by +1.

Flight: For each point spent, the monster gains a fly speed of 10 feet (average) or its existing fly speed increases by 10 feet or its maneuverability improves by one step.

Magical Strikes: By spending one point, the monster's natural attacks and any weapon it wields are considered magical for purposes of damage reduction.

Resistance: For each point spent, the monster gains resistance 5 to one energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire or sonic) or its existing resistance increases by 5.

Speed: For each point spent, the monster gains a burrow, climb, or swim speed of 20 feet or its existing burrow, climb, swim or land speed increases by 20 feet.

Spell-Like Ability: For each point spent, the monster gains a single level 1 spell-like ability that it can use once per day. For each 3 points spent, the monster gains a single level 2 spell-like ability that it can use once per day. For each 5 points spent, the monster gains a single level 3 spell-like ability that it can use once per day. It cannot use abilities which would normally require a costly material component.



Example custom monster for Summon Monster III:

Angel, Satellar
NG Medium Outsider (Angel, Extraplanar, Good)
Init +3; Senses Darkvision 60 ft, Low-Light Vision; perception +6
Aura Protective aura
DEFENCE
AC 17, Touch 13, FF 14 (+3 Dex, +4 Natural; +4 deflection vs evil)
hp 22 (3d10+6)
Fort + Ref + Will +; +4 vs poison, +4 resistance vs evil
Immune Acid, Cold, Petrification Resist Electricity 10, fire 10
OFFENCE
Speed 30 ft, Fly 20 ft (Average)
Melee 1 bite +6 (1d6+3), 2 Slams +6 (1d4+1)
Ranged Composite Longbow (+3 strength modifier) +4/+4 (1d8+3)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 3rd) 1-day cure light wounds
STATISTICS
Str 16 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 8 Wis 10 Cha 12
Base Attack +3 CMB +6 CMD 19
Feats Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
Skills Diplomacy +7, Knowledge (The Planes) +5, Perception +6, Sense Motive +6, Swim +9


1If someone wanted to use this in a normal game, I suggest that the same classes have access to it as they do in the base version. Presumably, in 3.Aotrs, you have strong opinions of your own about who should have which version when.
2I'm not a fan of 1 round cast times, especially since they only seem to get stuck on some of the less useful spells (Enlarge Person? Really? That would have been problematic to have as a standard action?). A full-round action, then having it only start actually doing things on your next turn anyway, is kinda a compromise between allowing people to disrupt your summoning by throwing rocks at you, and making it possible to summon monsters as an attack, I guess. You can change it back if that's your jam.
3You shouldn't need a feat to put counterpoised on your creatures, that's just silly. The way that adding entropic and resolute works needed to be made clearer.
4I am torn on allowing 1d3 level K-1 custom monsters or 1d4+1 level K-2 custom monsters, but I think that giving people freedom to make their own monsters and also spam them might be a bad idea.

[Aotrs Commander]

That's useful, thank you. At the very least, it saves me some searching looking for stuff to deal with the summon lists.



I think, though, as this is looking like it might end up more and more extensive - the existance of counterpoised, something I wasn't even aware of, practically screams to add Alum Bronze as the "neutral material" - I think this week's work on it1 ought to be doing up the last outstanding spell list (shugenja) to cross that off the list before I enbark on what (knowing me) might end up a quite major bit of work.



Though that said, I think there's an arguement to be made for not treating all the alignments as having equal weight in practise, at least as far as simple practicality goes. We've never had a character that emphasised Law/Chaos over Good+Neutral/Evil, so it seems like there needs to be a balance between doing that and just making extra paperwork for the sake of completeness in the knowledge that it might not get used. (The Summon Bestiary is itself pushing 57 pages of "most of this stuff might not get used" as it is!)

If nothing else, I might may a notation for "additional/variant summons" as an appendix, but not do the stats; then allow someone who actually wanted to do that to basically swap out what's on the list on a case-by-case basis. Actually, that might be another option fo the custom monster - allow it as a straight swap of "instead of" the summon list maybe.

(Currently, 3.Aotrs summon monster says:


Note that variant spell version of the Summon Monster spells exist, which allow the summoning of entropic or resolute creatures instead of celestial and fiendish, those these are significantly rarer (and must be learned as a separate spell designated with (LC)).

So you can technicallyhave entropic/resolute creatures without taking a feat, but the stats are not in the Summon Bestiary (again, simply for page-count), but it's soft-restricted - basically so that if someone DOES want to do it, they could have it all done specifically for that character, rather than bung it in on the off-chance, if you take my meaning. Essentially, I think putting it in that way is the best compromise between not allowing it at all, and a complete kitchen sink which leans more to the abusable territory; where most of the time, in my own experience, players will only pick, like, one or two options, so the majority would be wasted space anyway.




1Since 3.Aotrs reached "finished" status, I have forced myself back to only doing two nights a week (Tuesday/Wednesday!) instead of, like, six nights for several months. I did some on Saturday mostly because, well, we had a funeral on Friday and went for a drive and a walk on the Saturday and starting on it filled a little bit of time not usable for playing BATTLETECH, and there was a looming possibiity that we might be re-starting, so I was more fired up. But that's not happening, so...