5e Artificer/Fighter build - help check my math/pimp my build?

[pantastic]

Hi all! I'm getting ready to embark on a new campaign, and decided to try a Construct this time (the GM has a homebrewed version of WarForged). Since he's a big, clanking, metal hunk of technology, I thought I'd go for a tanky/fighty/spellcasty mix. Essentially, all of my character's "spells" will re-skinned as "ancient lost technology." The main two classes I'm looking at are Fighter (Eldritch Knight) and Artificer (either Artillerist or Battle Master)

I know it won't be an "optimum" build, but I'm hoping for something that is (a) reasonably effective in combat, and (b) reasonably survivable.

Assuming standard starting stats of 15,14,13,12,10,8, and adding in my particular Construct's 'racial' stat bonuses, I believe I'm looking at Level 1 stats of:
INT: 15+2=17
CON: 13+2=15
DEX: 14
STR: 12+2=14
WIS: 10-4 = 6
CHA: 8

Pertinent Class Abilities:
Artificer Infusions (2): Enhanced Weapon - +1 to attack and damage with weapon
Artificer Battle Master: Can use INT instead of STR or DEX for attack and damage rolls when using a magic weapon
Fighter Style Great Weapon Master: on damage rolls, can reroll a 1 or 2, must take second roll (roughly +1 to average damage)

So, if I use a two-handed Reach weapon such as Halberd/Glaive (1d10 damage), I believe at level 9 (Fighter 5 / Artificer 4) <assuming I use my Artificer ASI to get War Caster feat (can cast spell as attack of opportunity) and I get my INT to 20 by level 9>:
Action: 2x Attacks, each 1d10 +5 (INT) +1 (magic weapon) for total ~24 damage
Bonus Action: Attack with Steel Defender, 1d8+2 Force damage on hit ~6
Reaction: Green Flame Blade or Booming Blade cantrip, which includes making a melee attack for ~12-17 damage
Total average damage output for 1 turn in the neighborhood of ~42-47 damage (assuming opportunity attack and all attacks hit)

Okay, question time:
(1) I know ~42-47 damage/turn isn't the "best," but is it *reasonable* (assuming an average table of level 9s)? Will I carry my weight as a member of the party, especially as a front line fighter?
(2) What are some reasonable ways to make *this character* more effective? I generally want to keep the tanky/fighty/casty mix, but I am willing to look at other classes or subclasses that do it better. I'm pretty much determined to try a Construct, so Bladesinger is not an option.

Bonus points for any reply that figures out a decent build (same general concept) using Artificer Artillerist at level 3 for the Eldritch Cannon: bonus action ranged spell attack, 2d8 force damage, 120" range, plus major cool points for the literal arm cannon in the construct!

Thanks in advance,

[Relbin]

I’d recommend starting Battlesmith artificer 5 so you can use Int for attacks and get extra attack ASAP. Then go fighter 4 for fighting style, action surge, an extra level 2 spell slot, and ability score increase.

If you want to go artillerist, I’d go fighter 5, taking some combat cantrips and increasing strength at 4. I’d then go artillerist to 4, picking up more utility spells, infusions and cannon and increasing strength to 20. This build has more HP and heavy armor but fewer spells and more levels where you may feel subpar.

Go with what you feel would be most fun and fits your character concept best.

[stoutstien]

If you want to use a reach weapon and warcaster you also need the spell sniper feat. Probably not worth the investment honestly you could just use the radiant weapon infusion reaction

[pantastic]

If you want to use a reach weapon and warcaster you also need the spell sniper feat. Probably not worth the investment honestly you could just use the radiant weapon infusion reaction

Good catch on the War Caster needing Spell Sniper for Reach weapons, thanks. You're right: probably not worth it.

If I end up going all the way to 6th in Artificer, I might try the Infusion: Radiant Weapon.

[pantastic]

I’d recommend starting Battlesmith artificer 5 so you can use Int for attacks and get extra attack ASAP. Then go fighter 4 for fighting style, action surge, an extra level 2 spell slot, and ability score increase.

If you want to go artillerist, I’d go fighter 5, taking some combat cantrips and increasing strength at 4. I’d then go artillerist to 4, picking up more utility spells, infusions and cannon and increasing strength to 20. This build has more HP and heavy armor but fewer spells and more levels where you may feel subpar.

If my GM will let me trade the Steel Defender (which the Battle Smith gets) for the Eldritch Cannon (which the Artillerist gets), I may try something along this route. To me, it seems the Eldritch Cannon is the 'fun,' but the Battle Smith is the 'effective.' I don't want to choose between the two (fun and effective), I'm greedy like that! :wink:


Go with what you feel would be most fun and fits your character concept best.

You are absolutely correct in this regard. If I do Artillerist, the Eldritch Cannon would be my "signature weapon," and I would want it ASAP. I would take maybe 1 level of Fighter followed by 3 levels of Artificer, just so I could get the Eldritch Cannon as early as possible. I realize this might not be the 'optimal' route, but for me it would be the optimal *fun*.

Anyway, thanks for the input - I do appreciate it.

[Stangler]

Booming blade EK and Artificer do not mix that well because both the Artificer and the EK(above level 7) get a lot of power from their bonus action. Booming blade and multi-attack don't mix that well unless you go 7 in EK. If you are not getting a lot of use out of booming blade then EK is less attractive.

Straight battlesmith is probably going to be more fun and more effective than any EK/BS multiclass. You could go fighter 1 to get heavy armor, fighting style, and martial weapons ASAP which is one of the major benefits of fighter but that delays your level 5 boost if you are going BS. Level 5 for BS is big, you get extra attack and second level spells(dragon breath for that flame attack, you can put it on your pet). 6 is also big because you get an extra infusions and better magic items. The problem with trying to multiclass into BS from Fighter is that it was already given enough fighter to not make it worth it.

If you want artillerist I think there could be an interesting build in there that forgoes the extra attack of fighter. In this case, 1 fighter then Artillerist to 3, then 2 in fighter for action surge and EK then Artificer the rest of the way. Or you could hold off on EK until after level 16. Action surge is pretty good though.

[stoutstien]

Booming blade EK and Artificer do not mix that well because both the Artificer and the EK(above level 7) get a lot of power from their bonus action. Booming blade and multi-attack don't mix that well unless you go 7 in EK. If you are not getting a lot of use out of booming blade then EK is less attractive.

Straight battlesmith is probably going to be more fun and more effective than any EK/BS multiclass. You could go fighter 1 to get heavy armor, fighting style, and martial weapons ASAP which is one of the major benefits of fighter but that delays your level 5 boost if you are going BS. Level 5 for BS is big, you get extra attack and second level spells(dragon breath for that flame attack, you can put it on your pet). 6 is also big because you get an extra infusions and better magic items. The problem with trying to multiclass into BS from Fighter is that it was already given enough fighter to not make it worth it.

If you want artillerist I think there could be an interesting build in there that forgoes the extra attack of fighter. In this case, 1 fighter then Artillerist to 3, then 2 in fighter for action surge and EK then Artificer the rest of the way. Or you could hold off on EK until after level 16. Action surge is pretty good though.

Oddly enough the artificial doesn't get dragon's breath on its spell list.
I do agree staying single class with artificer has a lot going for it even with all the perks you can net with a dip in fighter.
they did a pretty good job with the class that while multiclassing is not completely difficult you know you are delaying some very potent ablities.

You want to get to BS 5 for extra attack but then 6 gets some nice infusions.... then flash of genius ...only a small gap to best infusions and arcane jolt bringing one of the best action economy heals in the game..then SSI, can't pass up the potential shenanigans with that one.

[Yakk]

This plan is akin to wanting to MC Paladin and Fighter because you want a more fighty Paladin.

Paladins are plenty fighty.

Battlesmiths are plenty fighty.

Now, artillerist are not plenty fighty; they typically have a blaster-wand and a cannon, and play more like a Warlock than a fighter.

A nearly pure battlesmith with a greataxe plays a lot like a fighter (with spells and a robot dog).

[pantastic]

... while multiclassing is not completely difficult you know you are delaying some very potent ablities.

Absolutely. The more I think about it, the ability to redo your infusions every night, based on the expected obstacle of the 'morrow, is AMAZINGLY powerful ... and being a half-caster ain't all bad, especially when you get to be fighty, too.


arcane jolt bringing one of the best action economy heals

I am not contesting the idea that Artificer has some very powerful and useful options - I'm extremely happy that my character concept looks like it will work out well. However, there are a few things I am not interested in for this PC - healing and a 'mechanical companion' are among them. I now: this means I won't be taking full advantage of the class abilities. That's one reason I'm hoping my GM will let me trade the Steel Defender for the Edlritch Cannon (that, and the EC is just freaking awesome!). Did I mention that I plan to have it built into the construct as a permanent body part?

When I saw my GM's homebrew construct option, I legit imagined a PC with fighting prowess, a handful of high-tech abilities (re-skinned spells), and a big a$$ plasma arm cannon. Artillerist is almost the perfect realization of that image.

I do appreciate all the feedback from everybody; it is helping me figure things out.

[pantastic]

Battlesmiths are plenty fighty.

I hear ya, but I want the Eldritch Cannon more than the Battle Smith (both would be *heaven*). And I still want to be fighty. Thus, maybe Fighter 1, then the rest Artillerist is my best option. But again: no extra attack, no .... lots of fighty stuff. I'm just having a hard time finding the balance I want, while staying reasonably effective as a contributing member of the party.


artillerist ... typically have a blaster-wand and a cannon

Can you clarify what you mean by a blaster-wand? Is there an option I missed?


A nearly pure battlesmith with a greataxe plays a lot like a fighter (with spells and a robot dog).

The spells part I'm definitely looking forward to, as well as the fighting. The robot dog: not so much. I see the mechanical benefits they offer; I just don't want to roleplay a construct having a construct.

[pantastic]

If you want artillerist

I want that Eldrithc Cannon. 100%.


I think there could be an interesting build in there that forgoes the extra attack of fighter. In this case, 1 fighter then Artillerist to 3, then 2 in fighter for action surge and EK then Artificer the rest of the way. Or you could hold off on EK until after level 16. Action surge is pretty good though.

I agree Action Surge is good, but I think extra attack is going to be more useful more often.... although, with enough spell options, the Action Surge definitely could have it's uses.

Decisions, decisions...

[stoutstien]

I hear ya, but I want the Eldritch Cannon more than the Battle Smith (both would be *heaven*). And I still want to be fighty. Thus, maybe Fighter 1, then the rest Artillerist is my best option. But again: no extra attack, no .... lots of fighty stuff. I'm just having a hard time finding the balance I want, while staying reasonably effective as a contributing member of the party.

the artillerist using a cantrip + AF is dealing some solid damage. not quite as much as extra attack but would be plenty "fighty" in regards on damage.




The spells part I'm definitely looking forward to, as well as the fighting. The robot dog: not so much. I see the mechanical benefits they offer; I just don't want to roleplay a construct having a construct.

i would say artillerst is your subclass. just grab something like thornwhip and go to town pulling targets in close and toast them with flamethrower or how ever you want. its a very flexible subclass.

[Yakk]

Can you clarify what you mean by a blaster-wand? Is there an option I missed?
Arcane Firearm at 5 augments an implement to deal +1d8 damage when you cast a spell through it.

The base combat option of the Artillerist is
Firebolt (2d10+1d8)
Cannon (2d8) bonus action

Now, you could use a staff and do
Booming Blade (1d6+2d8+str+2 (duelist) +1 (infusion))
Cannon (2d8) bonus action
But your Booming Blade uses Str, and your Cannon uses Int.

You can swap the force-damage cannon for the shield cannon (1d8+int temporary HP every round in an AOE).

A Battlemaster 3/Artillerist X might be viable that uses Booming Blade as its main attack routine (magic initiate) via a staff. Also uses a shield for AC.

In this build you don't break 4 with the Fighter, as you rely on a SCAG cantrip for attacks instead of extra attack. It has to use a staff, because the Arcane Firearm requires a staff, rod or wand.

[stoutstien]

Unless your DM rules that a cantrip gained by a racial feature, like H elf, are added to the class list then BB and arcane firearm Don't combine. It specifically states that only artificer spells work with it.

[GorogIrongut]

You may have already seen this, and if so then my comment is pointless. But have you seen the UA with the Armorer subclass. It doesn't have the Eldritch Cannon but it does incorporate a lot of the elements of Artillerist and Battlesmith (i.e. the ability to be shooty AND melee-oriented... Which are elements you seem to want to combine...)

[pantastic]

Arcane Firearm

Ah. I just didn't realize you were referring to the Arcane Firearm ability.


A Battlemaster 3/Artillerist X might be viable

I didn't realize choosing multiple subclasses (from the same main class) was an option. I'll have to look into that, thanks.

[Dork_Forge]

I didn't realize choosing multiple subclasses (from the same main class) was an option. I'll have to look into that, thanks.

There appears to be a little confusion, Battle Master is a Fighter subclass in the PHB, the Artificer subclass you're referring to is the Battle Smith.

As for build, mixing Battle Smith and Battle Master would be a pretty potent combo and would give you some short rest recharge instead of relying solely on long rest spell slots.

[pantastic]

There appears to be a little confusion, Battle Master is a Fighter subclass in the PHB, the Artificer subclass you're referring to is the Battle Smith.

Ah, I'm sure that's what Yakk was refferring to - I've just been staring at Artificer-Battle Smith for so long, I forgot about the similarly named Fighter subclass!

[Yakk]

Ah. I just didn't realize you were referring to the Arcane Firearm ability.
Yes. And as I read it, it applies to SCAG weapon cantrips like Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade.

So you get [W]+2d8+stat damage at level 5 from it. Not as good as 2[W]+2Stat usually, but not bad.

You do have to use your wand/staff/rod, and of those 3 a staff is a weapon (1d6 versatile). So you can 2 hand a staff for 3d8+strength, or staff+shield for 1d6+2d8+strength (I think the 1 point of damage is worth the +2 AC).

Then you have your turrent. It is based off int; so either you split your stat investment, accept one of the two is inaccurate, or go with the non-attack temporary HP forcefield.


I didn't realize choosing multiple subclasses (from the same main class) was an option. I'll have to look into that, thanks.
Battlemaster fighter, not battle smith artificer.

That gives you 4d8 short rest maneuver dice. One of which can be precision attack to ensure your relatively heavy-hitting staff attack works.

Warcaster is also great, which is why battlemaster 4 might be tempting (extra ASI).

You don't get SCAG cantrips to start, so you'll also want a feat to do that.

Rebalance stats like this:
STR: 15+2=17
INT: 13+2=15
DEX: 14
CON: 12+2=14
WIS: 10-4 = 6
CHA: 8

or, even, dump dex. Fighter 1/Artillerist 5 (get Magic Adept for booming blade)/BM 4 (get Warcaster), then Artificer the rest of the way

At Artillerist 8 (level 12) get +1 str/+1 int.

Your power curve is pretty fun.
1) Staff+Board fighter (1d6+5 damage, 1d10+1 second wind, heavy armor)
2) Artificier spells. Does mending work on yourself? (!)
3) Magic up your weapon and armor or whatever
4) Cannon! 2d8(9) damage or 1d8+2(6.5) temp hp every round.
5) Booming Blade (1d6+5+1d8 damage, plus 2d8 punishment if they move)
6) Booming Blade (1d6+5+2d8 damage, plus 2d8 punishment if they move), 2nd level spells
7) Action Surge
8) 4d8 short rest maneuver dice (precision, riposte, something else)
9) Warcaster (can Booming Blade on OAs) if DM provokes regularly, or Sentinal (goes great with riposte; damned if you do, damned if you don't)
10) 3rd infusion, tool expertise
11) Flash of Genius (only +2, but hey)
12) 18 str/16 int
13) Level 3 spells, cannon upgrade
14) 4th infusion, 4th attunement, 3rd cantrip
15) Spell storing item
16) 20 str or 18 int
17) 4th level spells
18) 5th infusion, 5th attunement, 4th cantrip
19) Cannon grants cover to you and allies with a field (very nice)
20) 20 str and 20 int or splash level 1 something

[Dork_Forge]

Yes. And as I read it, it applies to SCAG weapon cantrips like Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade.

So you get [W]+2d8+stat damage at level 5 from it. Not as good as 2[W]+2Stat usually, but not bad.

You do have to use your wand/staff/rod, and of those 3 a staff is a weapon (1d6 versatile). So you can 2 hand a staff for 3d8+strength, or staff+shield for 1d6+2d8+strength (I think the 1 point of damage is worth the +2 AC).


Arcane Firearm only applies to Artificer spells and I don't think there's anyway to grab the SCAGtrips as Artificer spells. There's alwats Shocking Grasp for melee though.

[pantastic]

Arcane Firearm only applies to Artificer spells and I don't think there's anyway to grab the SCAGtrips as Artificer spells. There's alwats Shocking Grasp for melee though.

I believe you are correct on that. It's ok; I'm not dead-set on using BB/GFB. In fact, I'm still weighing the possibility of a "shoot em in the face" build using a hand crossbow, Repeating Shot, and extra attacks. I think it would be pretty easy to get:

Action - 2x Crossbow shot
Action Surge - 2x Crossbow shot
Bonus Action - Eldritch Cannon

I'm just not sure what that would leave me with in other respects. Action Surge is obviously only once per rest - it's a perk, rather than a defining feature.

I think I need to figure out how to make the best use of Arcane Firearm. I definitely want the Eldritch Cannon, and using Artificer as my main, or only, class is very tempting. I think the GM will let me get away with not using a wand/staff/rod for Arcane Firearm since I'm narrating all of my abilities are 'technology' rather than 'magic' (I know this violates RAW, but I hope it's such a minor point that the GM will let it slide). That open me up to picking the weapon of my choosing.

If all of the above is true, most cantrips buffed by Arcane Firearm are going to out-perform STR or DEX based weapons. So .... what weapon do I use?

Maybe I just strap a shield on one arm, my Eldritch Cannon in my other hand, and forgo weapons. From what I'm seeing, that might be the best answer. Bonus points: it lets me skip Fighter completely and go all Artillerist.

[Dork_Forge]

I believe you are correct on that. It's ok; I'm not dead-set on using BB/GFB. In fact, I'm still weighing the possibility of a "shoot em in the face" build using a hand crossbow, Repeating Shot, and extra attacks. I think it would be pretty easy to get:

Action - 2x Crossbow shot
Action Surge - 2x Crossbow shot
Bonus Action - Eldritch Cannon

I'm just not sure what that would leave me with in other respects. Action Surge is obviously only once per rest - it's a perk, rather than a defining feature.

I think I need to figure out how to make the best use of Arcane Firearm. I definitely want the Eldritch Cannon, and using Artificer as my main, or only, class is very tempting. I think the GM will let me get away with not using a wand/staff/rod for Arcane Firearm since I'm narrating all of my abilities are 'technology' rather than 'magic' (I know this violates RAW, but I hope it's such a minor point that the GM will let it slide). That open me up to picking the weapon of my choosing.

If all of the above is true, most cantrips buffed by Arcane Firearm are going to out-perform STR or DEX based weapons. So .... what weapon do I use?

Maybe I just strap a shield on one arm, my Eldritch Cannon in my other hand, and forgo weapons. From what I'm seeing, that might be the best answer. Bonus points: it lets me skip Fighter completely and go all Artillerist.

If you want to go hand crossbow then Artillerist isn't the best subclass at all as it'll make oyu too MAD and not use your subclass features, Battle Smith would be far better for that. Mixing Battle Smith with Fighter leads to a very potent handcrossbow build that's pretty fun to play (I usually play my battle Smiths like this or with a returning spear).

[pantastic]

If you want to go hand crossbow then Artillerist isn't the best subclass

Yeah, that seems to be the issue I keep running into: Artillerist isn't the best subclass for anything except having that awesome Eldritch Cannon, which is exactly how I pictured this guy before I even knew Artillerist was a thing.

From what I can tell, Artillerist only gets two things: an awesome Eldritch Cannon, and a plus 1d8 on Artificer spells (via Arcane Firearm) .... that's it.

I'm certain that just going straight Artillerist the whole way is a pretty effective build, and would be a lot of fun to play. It just changes the build from a front-line fighter to a back-line caster (it makes no sense to be front-line when all of my best stuff is ranged).

Hmmm ... I wonder if anything Paladin would pair better with Artillerist for an effective front-line fighter. Guess I have more research to do.

Maybe I should take a level of Barbarian for the Rage - haha! A Construct that 'rages.' I should go to bed before I come up with any more dumb ideas.

[Dork_Forge]

Yeah, that seems to be the issue I keep running into: Artillerist isn't the best subclass for anything except having that awesome Eldritch Cannon, which is exactly how I pictured this guy before I even knew Artillerist was a thing.

From what I can tell, Artillerist only gets two things: an awesome Eldritch Cannon, and a plus 1d8 on Artificer spells (via Arcane Firearm) .... that's it.

I'm certain that just going straight Artillerist the whole way is a pretty effective build, and would be a lot of fun to play. It just changes the build from a front-line fighter to a back-line caster (it makes no sense to be front-line when all of my best stuff is ranged).

Hmmm ... I wonder if anything Paladin would pair better with Artillerist for an effective front-line fighter. Guess I have more research to do.

Maybe I should take a level of Barbarian for the Rage - haha! A Construct that 'rages.' I should go to bed before I come up with any more dumb ideas.

Artillerist is the 'Blaster' subclass of Artillerist, though the Protector turret is a ridiculously powerful tool for keeping the party up.

If you want to go up close and personal with Artificer as your main class, then Battle Smith is really the way to go as it gives you the proficiencies you need as well as allowing you to use Int for everything.

Paladin is a fantastic class, but it would be very MAD (multi-attribute dependent) as you would require at least a 13 in Strength and Charisma in order to be able to multiclass with it.

If you're looking for a frontliner then I'd personally recommend Battle Smith mixed with some degree of Fighter (no more than 4 levels), using shield and spear with the Returning Weapon infusion on the spear so you can seemlessly transition into ranged as necessary.

Fighter would give you a pretty substantial damage bump over your career with the Dueling style, Action Surge and being able to take a subclass (Battle Master would be my choice), it also adds to your tanking with Second Wind, more hp and the potential for a heavy armor build if you start off Fighter, though that's a better tactic if you can go Warding Dwarf, I'm not sure what your racial benefits are as you said it was a homebrew race.

[Stangler]

Yeah, that seems to be the issue I keep running into: Artillerist isn't the best subclass for anything except having that awesome Eldritch Cannon, which is exactly how I pictured this guy before I even knew Artillerist was a thing.

From what I can tell, Artillerist only gets two things: an awesome Eldritch Cannon, and a plus 1d8 on Artificer spells (via Arcane Firearm) .... that's it.

.

There is nothing wrong with just going 3 into Artificer for the cannon if it fits your concept. EK isn't your only option but it is the best for attribute issues.

A relatively low Charisma Paladin is an option. Your homebrew stat allocation helps with that. Your damage output will be very good if you go Paladin. You can use bless to make sure your cannon hits more often. It is easier to delay the multiattack with Paladin because at 5 you can be 2 Pally/3 Artificer which means Weapon Attack + Smite + Cannon which is plenty of damage to keep you competitive with a standard multiattack fighter.

[pantastic]

There is nothing wrong with just going 3 into Artificer for the cannon if it fits your concept. EK isn't your only option but it is the best for attribute issues.

A relatively low Charisma Paladin is an option. Your homebrew stat allocation helps with that. Your damage output will be very good if you go Paladin. You can use bless to make sure your cannon hits more often. It is easier to delay the multiattack with Paladin because at 5 you can be 2 Pally/3 Artificer which means Weapon Attack + Smite + Cannon which is plenty of damage to keep you competitive with a standard multiattack fighter.

I could always Paladin first, then multiclass into Artificer (having the INT will be no problem). Like I said: I'll have to scrutinize some of the Paladin subclasses and features to see if the synergy is good there; I'm just not really seeing Fighter as anything more than a 2 level dip with an Artificer (and even then, only for certain builds).

The smite certainly is useful, and I sort of see this PC as a 'protector' anyway, so maybe a dash of pally *is* what the current recipe is lacking ...

Edit: aaaaaaaaand no. Divine Smite is about the only thing in Paladin that really suits what I'm looking for. Honestly, I'm thinking just straight Artificer might be the way to go at this point, or maybe taking Battle Master, not using the Steel Defender, and just narrating my arm as an "Eldritch Cannon"-like weapon that I unleash cantrips and such from. Shooting Firebolt from an "Eldritch Cannon" is a little underwhelming, but Artificer as a whole might be good enough to make up for it.

[Dork_Forge]

I could always Paladin first, then multiclass into Artificer (having the INT will be no problem).

This threw a little bit of a flag for me so I just want to make sure you're aware that both classes prerequisite stats matter when you multiclass, regardless what your original class was. So a Paladin/Artificer would need Str/Int/Cha all at 13+, whereas a Fighter/Artificer would just need Str/Dex and Int 13+ (and you'd want at least a 14 Dex for medium armor anyway).

[pantastic]

This threw a little bit of a flag for me so I just want to make sure you're aware that both classes prerequisite stats matter when you multiclass, regardless what your original class was. So a Paladin/Artificer would need Str/Int/Cha all at 13+, whereas a Fighter/Artificer would just need Str/Dex and Int 13+ (and you'd want at least a 14 Dex for medium armor anyway).

Yeah, just now when looking at Paladin stats I saw it said need to multiclass in _and out_ of Paladin? Yeesh. Let's not have that discussion, just suffice to say I think it's stupid and we can move on with the pertinent discussion.

As you've probably seen from my edit above, I don't think Paladin is what I'm looking for. To recap:

I'm thinking just straight Artillerist might be the way to go at this point, or maybe taking Battle Master and not using the Steel Defender, and just narrating my arm as an "Eldritch Cannon"-like weapon that I unleash cantrips and such from. Shooting Firebolt from an "Eldritch Cannon" is a little underwhelming, but Artificer as a whole might be good enough to make up for it.

[Dork_Forge]

Yeah, just now when looking at Paladin stats I saw it said need to multiclass in _and out_ of Paladin? Yeesh. Let's not have that discussion, just suffice to say I think it's stupid and we can move on with the pertinent discussion.

As you've probably seen from my edit above, I don't think Paladin is what I'm looking for. To recap:

I'm thinking just straight Artillerist might be the way to go at this point, or maybe taking Battle Master and not using the Steel Defender, and just narrating my arm as an "Eldritch Cannon"-like weapon that I unleash cantrips and such from. Shooting Firebolt from an "Eldritch Cannon" is a little underwhelming, but Artificer as a whole might be good enough to make up for it.

An Artillerist does pretty well for damage (between Arcane Firearm, enhanced focus and Eldritch Cannon), something that you may be missing out on is being a competent melee fighter if you just solo Artillerist and that seemed to be part of your concept (please correct me if I'm wrong).

I'd suggest a Fighter dip to correct that, one level would make you adequate at damage for it to be a back up plan (+2 modifier isn't ideal, but enhanced weapon can help with that and Dueling can give you a damage boost, you won't be hitting as hard as a Battle Smith or real martial, but it gives you options and fleshes out your concept). Two levels would give you Action Surge and that would really be the best stopping place for a primary Artillerist, it gives you flexibility with your casting in combat and covers your butt if you didn't have your turrets ready to go at the start of combat.

At level 6 (Fighter 1/Artillerist 5): Your at will damage would be 2d10+1d8 (15.5- Firebolt) and 2d8 (9 Force Ballista), 24.5 average damage is pretty good, for comparison a Warlock of the same level leveraging Eldritch Blast+Agonising Blast+Hex would be doing on average 26 damage, but using a slot and their concentration (and not able to freely shift targets as well as the Artillerist). *Note this doesn't account for accuracy, accounting for accuracy would probably shift things towards the Artillerist a bit more due to the Enhanced Focus

[pantastic]

something that you may be missing out on is being a competent melee fighter if you just solo Artillerist and that seemed to be part of your concept (please correct me if I'm wrong).

No, I think you pretty much nailed my concept. I just found out that we're doing session zero tomorrow, so I should be able to get some answers from the GM as far as what we'll be able to house-rule.

[Quietus]

No, I think you pretty much nailed my concept. I just found out that we're doing session zero tomorrow, so I should be able to get some answers from the GM as far as what we'll be able to house-rule.

Honestly, just ask the DM if you can swap Arcane Firearm (the level 5 Artillerist ability) for Extra Attack. From experience with Artillerist, this will likely be a downgrade, barring the possibility you use GWM/XBE to get the -5/+10 options. It does mean you'll have to split your stats, but you could build to start with a 16 Int and 15 Str (if possible given this homebrew race) and get Heavily Armored at 4 to bump that Str to 16, and then spend the rest of your time maxing those two stats out. You'd play fairly similarly to a Paladin with a lower damage ceiling, but using your bonus action to achieve either a higher damage floor or much better damage mitigation. Let me tell you, while it feels awesome to chuck around force ballista bolts or flamethrowers, being able to drop 1d8+3 temp HP at will as a bonus action is *really good*.

The other option would be simply starting at 5 Fighter to get Extra Attack, then going pure Artillerist from there. This gets you melee competence, action surge, heavy armor without a feat, and subclass goodies, and then you lean into Artillerist for shoulder-mounted cannon goodness. Just means that you haven't figured out how to activate that cannon yet. And if you ever reach level 20, your capstone at Artillerist 15 is the double cannon/constant cover function.

[pantastic]

Ok, some updates after session zero (we start this week, so I have a few days left to nail down my build):
- We're starting at level 3
- We rolled stats today in the Roll20 chat, and I got pretty lucky: 16,16,14,14,13,11
- One of the pertinent traits of the homebrewed Construct includes a "targeting array," which gives +1 on all ranged and spell attack rolls (not damage)

I think, based on the both party composition and my Eldritch Cannon/Arcane Firearm/targeting array, it makes the most sense for me to build my character around ranged spell damage, with a generic turn looking like:
<Action> Firebolt for 1d10 (scales w/ level) + 1d8 (Arcane Firearm)
<Bonus Action> Eldritch Cannon for 2d8 (I'm assuming Arcane Firearm wouldn't apply to this?)
Average DPR at level 3 = 19, infinitely sustainable. Can surge higher damage using spells.

The Fire Bolt damage scales with level, and the Eldritch Cannon increases to 3d8 at level 9.

Sounds like my stats need to be: (including racial bonuses)
STR - 13+2=15
DEX - 16
CON - 14+2=16
INT - 16+2=18
WIS - 14-2=12
CHA - 11-2=9

I'm definitely playing him as a low CHA, and the low WIS is a choice. I coooould start with 18s in both INT and STR, but even if I carry a Greatsword around, I don't see putting it to use as effectively as a melee build because I just won't have the feats and class abilities to really make it shine. Even if I did carry around a big two-hander, I'd do LESS damage with it than with my ranged cantrip, thanks to Arcane Firearm (which I get at level 5; 2 levels from now)

I also get a Feat to start off, and I'll get an ASI next level (level 4).
I think War Caster is the biggest priority so I can capitalize on the Arcane Firearm during Opportunity Attacks.
After that, maybe the Healer feat at level 4 (if I find myself being the party's main Healer), or maybe something like Spell Sniper if I find myself too often missing attack rolls due to cover.

Down the road I think maybe gaining a version of the feat Dragonhide, but reskinned for a Construct. I already have a natural AC of 12 (because homebrew); with 'Improved Metal Hide' I would have 13 + 3 (DEX) + 2 (Shield) for an unarmored AC of 18. If I can get access to the spell Shield, would that bump my AC to 21, or 23? Plus, Dragonhide would let me bump that STR mod up to +3.

Lucky is always nice. I feel like Magic Initiate would be less effective since I already have casting, though I'm sure there are cantrips and level 1 spells that would be awesome to have. There are plenty of 'nice' feats, but I don't see any others that offer huge synergy with what I'm looking at.

I don't plan past level 12, because I've never had a campaign progress past level 12.

Thanks to everybody so far for helping out. If nobody see any glaring flaws in what I'm planning (or has any genius ideas for a way to be awesome at everything), then I think this is what my PC will look like.

Thanks again,
Pan

[Dork_Forge]

Ok, some updates after session zero (we start this week, so I have a few days left to nail down my build):
- We're starting at level 3
- We rolled stats today in the Roll20 chat, and I got pretty lucky: 16,16,14,14,13,11
- One of the pertinent traits of the homebrewed Construct includes a "targeting array," which gives +1 on all ranged and spell attack rolls (not damage)

I think, based on the both party composition and my Eldritch Cannon/Arcane Firearm/targeting array, it makes the most sense for me to build my character around ranged spell damage, with a generic turn looking like:
<Action> Firebolt for 1d10 (scales w/ level) + 1d8 (Arcane Firearm)
<Bonus Action> Eldritch Cannon for 2d8 (I'm assuming Arcane Firearm wouldn't apply to this?)
Average DPR at level 3 = 19, infinitely sustainable. Can surge higher damage using spells.

The Fire Bolt damage scales with level, and the Eldritch Cannon increases to 3d8 at level 9.

Sounds like my stats need to be: (including racial bonuses)
STR - 13+2=15
DEX - 16
CON - 14+2=16
INT - 16+2=18
WIS - 14-2=12
CHA - 11-2=9

I'm definitely playing him as a low CHA, and the low WIS is a choice. I coooould start with 18s in both INT and STR, but even if I carry a Greatsword around, I don't see putting it to use as effectively as a melee build because I just won't have the feats and class abilities to really make it shine. Even if I did carry around a big two-hander, I'd do LESS damage with it than with my ranged cantrip, thanks to Arcane Firearm (which I get at level 5; 2 levels from now)

I also get a Feat to start off, and I'll get an ASI next level (level 4).
I think War Caster is the biggest priority so I can capitalize on the Arcane Firearm during Opportunity Attacks.
After that, maybe the Healer feat at level 4 (if I find myself being the party's main Healer), or maybe something like Spell Sniper if I find myself too often missing attack rolls due to cover.

Down the road I think maybe gaining a version of the feat Dragonhide, but reskinned for a Construct. I already have a natural AC of 12 (because homebrew); with 'Improved Metal Hide' I would have 13 + 3 (DEX) + 2 (Shield) for an unarmored AC of 18. If I can get access to the spell Shield, would that bump my AC to 21, or 23? Plus, Dragonhide would let me bump that STR mod up to +3.

Lucky is always nice. I feel like Magic Initiate would be less effective since I already have casting, though I'm sure there are cantrips and level 1 spells that would be awesome to have. There are plenty of 'nice' feats, but I don't see any others that offer huge synergy with what I'm looking at.

I don't plan past level 12, because I've never had a campaign progress past level 12.

Thanks to everybody so far for helping out. If nobody see any glaring flaws in what I'm planning (or has any genius ideas for a way to be awesome at everything), then I think this is what my PC will look like.

Thanks again,
Pan

It's looking good to me, personally I'd just carry a Rapier if you really have to melee. In general some things that come to mind:

-You already have access to Shield, it's a subclass spell for both the Artillerist and the Battle Smith

-If your go to is going to be Firebolt, then consider investing in Elemental Adept so you bypass resistance and have a higher average damage

-Personally looking at your stats and the targetting array thing, it'd be very hard to not make a Sharpshooting Battle Smith, between Archery, Targetting Array and Repeating Shot, you're already compensating for 4 of the -5 penalty with a high Int and free starting feat. This would yield a higher damage build and allow you to still leverage a shield on your off arm, but completely understandably if you want to stick the Artillerist route.

[Quietus]

I think, based on the both party composition and my Eldritch Cannon/Arcane Firearm/targeting array, it makes the most sense for me to build my character around ranged spell damage, with a generic turn looking like:
<Action> Firebolt for 1d10 (scales w/ level) + 1d8 (Arcane Firearm)
<Bonus Action> Eldritch Cannon for 2d8 (I'm assuming Arcane Firearm wouldn't apply to this?)
Average DPR at level 3 = 19, infinitely sustainable. Can surge higher damage using spells.

Correct, Arcane Firearm would not apply to Eldritch Cannon. Eldritch Cannon is a Spell Attack, but not a spell itself. However, this does mean that EC will benefit from the built-in bonus of this construct race, as well as from an Enhanced Arcane Focus infusion, which can be put on your Arcane Firearm.

[pantastic]

Personally looking at your stats and the targetting array thing, it'd be very hard to not make a Sharpshooting Battle Smith, between Archery, Targetting Array and Repeating Shot, you're already compensating for 4 of the -5 penalty with a high Int and free starting feat. This would yield a higher damage build and allow you to still leverage a shield on your off arm, but completely understandably if you want to stick the Artillerist route.

Well ... you aren't wrong. At level 5 Battle Smith can outdamage a level 11 Artificer (using average at-will DPR):

Artillerist's average DPR at level 5: ~22.5
Action - Fire Bolt: +9 to attack rolls, ~13.5 damage
+9 To hit: +4 (INT) +3 (Proficiency) +1 (Targeting) + 1 (Enhanced Arcane Focus)
2d10 (Fire Bolt) + 1d8 (Arcane Firearm)
Bonus Action - Eldritch Cannon: +8 to attack rolls, ~9 damage
+8 To hit: +4 (INT) +2 (Proficiency) +1 (Targeting) + 1 (Enhanced Arcane Focus)
2d8 damage

Artillerist's average DPR at level 11: ~34.5
Action - Firebolt: +12 to attack rolls, ~21 damage
+12 To hit: +5 (INT) +4 (Proficiency) +1 (Targeting) + 2 (Enhanced Arcane Focus)
3d10 (Fire Bolt) + 1d8 (Arcane Firearm)
Bonus Action - Eldritch Cannon: +12 to attack rolls, ~13.5 damage
+12 To hit: +5 (INT) +4 (Proficiency) +1 (Targeting) + 2 (Enhanced Arcane Focus)
3d8 damage

Battle Smith's average DPR at level 3: ~30.5
Action - Blunderbuss: +3 to attack rolls, ~24 damage
+3 To hit: +4 (INT) +2 (Proficiency) +1 (Targeting) + 1 (Repeating Shot) -5 (Sharpshooter)
2d8 +15 Damage: +4 (INT) +1 (Repeating Shot) +10 (Sharpshooter)
Bonus Action - Steel Defender: +4 to hit, 1d8+2 damage ~6.5

Battle Smith's average DPR at level 5: ~54.5
Action - Blunderbuss: +4 to attack rolls, ~24 damage
+4 To hit: +4 (INT) +3 (Proficiency) +1 (Targeting) + 1 (Repeating Shot) -5 (Sharpshooter)
2d8 +15 Damage: +4 (INT) +1 (Repeating Shot) +10 (Sharpshooter)
Extra Attack - Blunderbuss: +4 to attack rolls, ~24 damage
+4 To hit: +4 (INT) +3 (Proficiency) +1 (Targeting) + 1 (Repeating Shot) -5 (Sharpshooter)
2d8 +15 Damage: +4 (INT) +1 (Repeating Shot) +10 (Sharpshooter)
Bonus Action - Steel Defender: +4 to hit, 1d8+2 damage ~6.5

Battle Smith also gives more flexibility, since the Sharpshooter increase is optional. Even without using the sharpshooter's increased damage, the Battle Smith's average DPR at level is exactly what the Artillerist's is at level 11.

Aside from the Eldritch Cannon's healing output, the Steel Defender is probably superior in every way. If you switch the Artillerist's Eldritch Cannon to Healing mode, you're reducing the Artillerist's damage output even further.

With Battle Smith, level 5 is pretty much peak at-will damage. This makes me think maybe just do 3 levels in Battle Smith, and then find any other class that gains extra attacks and synergizes with ranged attacks?

My first thought was Eldritch Knight, which in addition to Extra Attacks gains Fighting Style (Close Quarters Shooter), Second Wind, and Action Surge, but the spell slot synergy is ... well, what's the antonym for synergy? An Artificer actually loses spell slots by adding Eldritch Knight!!! :smallmad:

Maybe Gunslinger, since I'm thinking Blunderbuss, though I would need to figure out how to get more grit to make the Gunslinger really payoff - grit (and the trick shots you power with grit) is the main thing the Gunslinger has going for it.

Also maybe Ranger, Hunter Conclave. That would net me Extra Attacks plus the Horde Breaker ability, resulting in (sometimes) getting 3 attacks from a regular attack action (situation dependent).

[Yakk]

Um, Repeating Shot removes the "loading" property, not the "reload" property.

With extra attack, you get to fire, then lose your attack as your gun reloads.

Your Smith at 3 has 18.5 damage after using SS, and 30.5 at level 5.

As well as really, really bad accuracy.

[pantastic]

Um, Repeating Shot removes the "loading" property, not the "reload" property.

Repeating Shot, Crossbow Expert, the "Loading" property, the "Ammunition" property, and the "Reload" property are all one giant crap show. It really, really doesn't help that the "Ammunition" property explicitly requires "a free hand to load a one-handed weapon" ... but neither property talks explicitly about 'readying' a ranged weapon (i.e., re-cocking a crossbow).

If a GM allows Repeating Shot to work with a Crossbow using only a single hand, even though the Ammunition property explicitly states that a player must have a free hand to 'load' it, then there's absolutely no reason to say it doesn't also work with a firearm. And if a GM say that you need a free-hand to load a weapon even when you aren't loading it, well, ... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Repeating Shot explicitly removes the need to provide ammunition:


Repeating Shot
Item: A simple or martial weapon with the ammunition property (requires attunement)
This magic weapon grants a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls made with it when it’s used to make a ranged attack, and it ignores the loading property if it has it. The weapon requires no ammunition; it magically produces one piece of ammunition each time you make a ranged attack with it, unless you manually load it. The ammunition produced by the weapon vanishes the instant after the it hits or misses a target.

Which removes the need to 'reload':


Reload
The weapon can be fired a number of times equal to its Reload score before you must spend 1 attack or 1 action to reload. You must have one free hand to reload a firearm.

The specific (Repeating Shot on this weapon) supersedes the general (all firearms must be reloaded).


As well as really, really bad accuracy.

Hah! Feel free to show me a build that gets significantly higher than +8 attack bonus at level 3, on top of getting: magic spells, infusions, and +INT to attack/damage rolls. If I missed something, I'm all ears. If I haven't missed something ... then why be negative?

[Dork_Forge]

Um, Repeating Shot removes the "loading" property, not the "reload" property.

With extra attack, you get to fire, then lose your attack as your gun reloads.


There's no such thing as the "reload" property. There's only loading and ammunition and Repeating Shot satisfies both.

Edit: Ah you were talking about the Gunslinger stuff, why would you need to load the gun if it creates ammunition as you make the attack?


As well as really, really bad accuracy.#

Not really? Repeating Shot is a +1, their racial trait gives a +1 to ranged attacks and if they were to dip Fighter for Archery they'd negate 4 out of the 5 penalty from SS.

[Yakk]

Hah! Feel free to show me a build that gets significantly higher than +8 attack bonus at level 3, on top of getting: magic spells, infusions, and +INT to attack/damage rolls. If I missed something, I'm all ears. If I haven't missed something ... then why be negative?

Extra Attack - Blunderbuss: +4 to attack rolls, ~24 damage
+4 To hit: +4 (INT) +3 (Proficiency) +1 (Targeting) + 1 (Repeating Shot) -5 (Sharpshooter)
Bonus Action - Steel Defender: +4 to hit, 1d8+2 damage ~6.5
That is +4 to hit, not +8.

The numbers where post-SS, so I critiqued the accuracy of the numbers posted, not the ATK possible.

Add in Archery dip for another +2 and it becomes +6, which is starting to be ok accuracy. But that is Fighter 1/BM 5, not BM 5.

Ah you were talking about the Gunslinger stuff, why would you need to load the gun if it creates ammunition as you make the attack?
I'm presuming the weapon isn't a cartage gun. And it requires both powder and ammunition.

Partly because that is how I view D&D-adjacent firearms, and partly because the 2d8 damage of that weapon is balanced around it being a "fire once, then forget about it".

But I can see the other interpretation as perfectly reasonable.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm presuming the weapon isn't a cartage gun. And it requires both powder and ammunition.

Partly because that is how I view D&D-adjacent firearms, and partly because the 2d8 damage of that weapon is balanced around it being a "fire once, then forget about it".

But I can see the other interpretation as perfectly reasonable.

There is no separation in the rules (DMG or Gunslinger) between powder and shot, when you load the weapon you're loading both and the repeating shot infusion removes the need to load it. Whether or not this unbalances the weapon is up for debate as it has an absolutely terrible range for a gun (or any ranged weapon) and has a misfire score of 2.

[pantastic]

There is no separation in the rules (DMG or Gunslinger) between powder and shot, when you load the weapon you're loading both and the repeating shot infusion removes the need to load it. Whether or not this unbalances the weapon is up for debate as it has an absolutely terrible range for a gun (or any ranged weapon) and has a misfire score of 2.

Tell me if I'm crazy, but I think Blunderbuss is the best choice of weapons - for what I'm doing, at least. For my build, two-handed firearms are off the table. And range isn't really an issue, to me - I'll have reasonably high AC and CON, so I don't mind getting close to the front line, if not getting right in there (once I get the Gunslinger feat and don't have Disadavantage).

You listed two negatives for the Blunderbuss:
1) Limited range (15/60, to be precise)
2) Misfire 2

But to me, the positives outweigh those:
1) Damage of 2d8
2) Range of 60' (and no Disadvantage, with Sharpshooter)

To me, criticizing the Blunderbuss (range of 60') is kind of like criticizing the range on a melee weapon: sure, the range is short ... but the damage is pretty decent, and probably some 75% of enemies will be within range of a Blunderbuss. Sure, a bow or even a Pistol can outdistance it, but if 60' isnt good enough, then what good is a range of 5'?

Of the two critiques, I think the misfire is the bigger issue... maybe I will take the Pistol instead (1d10 piercing, range 60/240, misfire 1) just to cut my misfires in half. The penalty, of course, is an average of ~3.5 damage less, per shot. Since I will doing 2 shots per turn (eventually), possibly more, that's a reduction of ~7 or more damage per turn - not insignificant, in my mind.

My rough guess at the math (including chance of misfire %) would look like:
Pistol, 1 attack: 20.5 (damage) x 18 out of 20 shots (-2 for misfire and correction) = 369 damage, or 18.5 dpr
Pistol, 2 attacks: 20.5 (damage) x 16.5 out of 20 shots (Extra attack with misfire and correction) = 338.25 damage, or 33.8 dpr
Blunderbuss, 1 attack: 24 (damage) x 16 out of 20 shots (2x: -2 for misfire and correction) = 384 damage / 20 = 19.2 dpr
Blunderbuss,2 attacks: 24 (damage) x 13 out of 20 shots (2x: -3.5 for Extra attack with misfire and correction) = 312, or 31.2 dpr

Pistol vs Blunderbuss average damage/round at 1 attack per round: 18.5 (Pistol) vs 19.2 (Blunderbuss) dpr
Pistol vs Blunderbuss average damage/round at 2 attacks per round: 33.8 (Pistol) vs 31.2 (Blunderbuss) dpr

Thanks for bearing with me while I did the math. Unless I'm missing a factor, seems like over all they are quite comparable.

Of course, Pistol has a decided edge in the range department. That, plus the more steady damage output, makes me inclined to take the Pistol.

Did I miss or forget anything?

Edit - yes, I went from choosing Blunderbuss at the top of my post, to choosing Pistol at the bottom! :smallbiggrin:

[Yakk]

You are double counting misfire sometimes; unkess you hit on a 1 without misfire.

Imagine you hit on an 11+, and attack 1x per action for 1d10+10+4, with misfire 1.

Over infinite rounds, on a given turn there is a 5% chance you misfired (and are repairing), a .95*.5 chance you hit, abd a .95*.05 chance you crit. Misfiring on that round is not that round's problem.

So we do (19.5*.5+5.5*.05)*.95 or 9.5 DPR.

The BB does (23*.5+.05*9)*.9 or 10.7 DPR.

For two shot, it gets trickier. The chance of a misfire 1 on last turn is .05+.95*.05, or .0975. Misfire 2 is .1+.9*.1, or .19.

On top of this, same turn misfires cost you damage. You get 1.95 shots per turn (misfire 1) or 1.9 (misfire 2).

(20.5 * .5 +.05*5.5)*1.95*.9025=~18.5 for pistol, and
(24*.5+.05*9)*1.9*.81=~19.1 for BB

This doesn't tell the whole story. Combats are not infinitely long, and your gun does not start jammed.

3 round DPR is thus
(20.5 * .5 +.05*5.5)*1.95*(1+2*.9025)/3=~19.2 avg for pistol, and
((24*.5+.05*9)*1.9*(1+2*.81)/3=~20.7 avg for BB

7% edge on BB.

Finally, you should keep a loaded pistol for when you get a 1st attack jam. It has 4 shots, probably enough to finish fight without a reload.

BB with N pistols ready to quick draw (drop a gun if it jams, draw a pistol) over 6 attacks is then:

(1+.9+.9^2+.9^3+.9^4+.9^5)*BB + (6-(1+.9+.9^2+.9^3+.9^4+.9^5))*P

BB is .5*24+.05*9
P is .5*20.5+.05*5.5

(1+.9+.9^2+.9^3+.9^4+.9^5)*(.5*24+.05*9) + (6-(1+.9+.9^2+.9^3+.9^4+.9^5))*(.5*20.5+.05*5.5)
Or ~ 24 DPR.

[pantastic]

Assuming a single firearm (which I think is a fair assumption for a starting character), a misfire results in loss of that shot, and also an entire action to repair it. Once gold is accumulated, it probably is easier to just have multiple firearms in order to circumvent missed attack opportunities as a result of misfire.

Which ... now that I think about it, that would effectively mitigate the increased misfire chance with a Blunderbuss. Heck, I could just have 2 Blunderbusses, or even 3, and switch them in the event of a misfire. 300g (the price of a Blunderbuss) seems like a pretty easy choice to me, especially when that bumps base weapon damage from ~5.5 per shot to ~9 per shot.

If I misfire, I just use some of my movement to stow that weapon. Next turn, I use some movement to draw a different, readied
weapon ... and I'm right back in boom-town. I like it.

I think that puts me at: (with 3x Blunderbuss to switch out after 2 misfires, and 2x attacks per action)
24 (2d8+4+1+10) damage per hit
x 18 hits out of 20 shots (2 misfires out of 20 shots, 17 hits, 1 crit)
= 441 total damage (that's with the extra 2d8 for the crit)
/ 10 (20 shot attempts in 10 rounds)
= 44.1 dpr

I can drop a misfired Blunderbuss as a free action, then use some movement to draw my spare (assuming I haven't used my free object interaction this turn). (Seriously: how many 5e fights go past 10 rounds?)

Comparison wise, against other damage dealers in 5e, how does 44.1 dpr stack up for at-will damage with 60' of range at level 5?

Of course, the higher the dpr, the more attractive a dip in Fighter is (I'm looking at you, Action Surge), and picking up Archery sure wouldn't hurt either ...

[Dork_Forge]

Tell me if I'm crazy, but I think Blunderbuss is the best choice of weapons - for what I'm doing, at least. For my build, two-handed firearms are off the table. And range isn't really an issue, to me - I'll have reasonably high AC and CON, so I don't mind getting close to the front line, if not getting right in there (once I get the Gunslinger feat and don't have Disadavantage).

You listed two negatives for the Blunderbuss:
1) Limited range (15/60, to be precise)
2) Misfire 2

But to me, the positives outweigh those:
1) Damage of 2d8
2) Range of 60' (and no Disadvantage, with Sharpshooter)

To me, criticizing the Blunderbuss (range of 60') is kind of like criticizing the range on a melee weapon: sure, the range is short ... but the damage is pretty decent, and probably some 75% of enemies will be within range of a Blunderbuss. Sure, a bow or even a Pistol can outdistance it, but if 60' isnt good enough, then what good is a range of 5'?

Of the two critiques, I think the misfire is the bigger issue... maybe I will take the Pistol instead (1d10 piercing, range 60/240, misfire 1) just to cut my misfires in half. The penalty, of course, is an average of ~3.5 damage less, per shot. Since I will doing 2 shots per turn (eventually), possibly more, that's a reduction of ~7 or more damage per turn - not insignificant, in my mind.

My rough guess at the math (including chance of misfire %) would look like:
Pistol, 1 attack: 20.5 (damage) x 18 out of 20 shots (-2 for misfire and correction) = 369 damage, or 18.5 dpr
Pistol, 2 attacks: 20.5 (damage) x 16.5 out of 20 shots (Extra attack with misfire and correction) = 338.25 damage, or 33.8 dpr
Blunderbuss, 1 attack: 24 (damage) x 16 out of 20 shots (2x: -2 for misfire and correction) = 384 damage / 20 = 19.2 dpr
Blunderbuss,2 attacks: 24 (damage) x 13 out of 20 shots (2x: -3.5 for Extra attack with misfire and correction) = 312, or 31.2 dpr

Pistol vs Blunderbuss average damage/round at 1 attack per round: 18.5 (Pistol) vs 19.2 (Blunderbuss) dpr
Pistol vs Blunderbuss average damage/round at 2 attacks per round: 33.8 (Pistol) vs 31.2 (Blunderbuss) dpr

Thanks for bearing with me while I did the math. Unless I'm missing a factor, seems like over all they are quite comparable.

Of course, Pistol has a decided edge in the range department. That, plus the more steady damage output, makes me inclined to take the Pistol.

Did I miss or forget anything?

Edit - yes, I went from choosing Blunderbuss at the top of my post, to choosing Pistol at the bottom! :smallbiggrin:

I think you misunderstood, my intent was not to criticise the choice of a Blunderbuss, I was just talking about it interacting with Repeating Shot in response to Yakk. A blunderbuss can put out a lot of damage regularly, especially if you burn your Grit on the trick shot that gives you advantage to mitigate the chances of misfire.

Personally I prefer the pistol for the lower misfire chance (and 4 shots per reload is a decent amount for a back up gun incase your Repeating Shot gun misfires).


Assuming a single firearm (which I think is a fair assumption for a starting character), a misfire results in loss of that shot, and also an entire action to repair it. Once gold is accumulated, it probably is easier to just have multiple firearms in order to circumvent missed attack opportunities as a result of misfire.

Which ... now that I think about it, that would effectively mitigate the increased misfire chance with a Blunderbuss. Heck, I could just have 2 Blunderbusses, or even 3, and switch them in the event of a misfire. 300g (the price of a Blunderbuss) seems like a pretty easy choice to me, especially when that bumps base weapon damage from ~5.5 per shot to ~9 per shot.

If I misfire, I just use some of my movement to stow that weapon. Next turn, I use some movement to draw a different, readied
weapon ... and I'm right back in boom-town. I like it.

I think that puts me at: (with 3x Blunderbuss to switch out after 2 misfires, and 2x attacks per action)
24 (2d8+4+1+10) damage per hit
x 18 hits out of 20 shots (2 misfires out of 20 shots, 17 hits, 1 crit)
= 441 total damage (that's with the extra 2d8 for the crit)
/ 10 (20 shot attempts in 10 rounds)
= 44.1 dpr

I can drop a misfired Blunderbuss as a free action, then use some movement to draw my spare (assuming I haven't used my free object interaction this turn). (Seriously: how many 5e fights go past 10 rounds?)

Comparison wise, against other damage dealers in 5e, how does 44.1 dpr stack up for at-will damage with 60' of range at level 5?

Of course, the higher the dpr, the more attractive a dip in Fighter is (I'm looking at you, Action Surge), and picking up Archery sure wouldn't hurt either ...

If you want to take Sharpshooter (and actually use the power attack feature) then a dip in Fighter for Archery is pretty important for being consistent in damage output. What level are you starting at and is the DM giving a free feat?

[pantastic]

If you want to take Sharpshooter (and actually use the power attack feature) then a dip in Fighter for Archery is pretty important for being consistent in damage output. What level are you starting at and is the DM giving a free feat?

We are starting at level 3, and I am getting a free feat due to taking a 'lower tier' race.

My plan is to take Sharpshooter for my free feat and tough it out for one level. At level 4, I could get Archery via a Fighter dip, or take 4th level in Artificer and trade the ASI for the Fighting Style feat that just came out, getting Archery that way.

I'm also waffling on Archery versus Close Quarters Shooter (CQS) ... the extra +1 for Archery is nice, but if the GM frequently puts me at disadvantage with the way he fights battles, I think CQS might be better.

Bottom line: I know I'll want Sharpshooter, but whether to take Archery or CQS first really depend on the GM, who is new to me.

Edit - heck, I guess I could get a feat at level 4, and do the Fighter dip at level 5, which would get me Sharpshooter, Archery, and CQS by level 5. A second Fighter dip at level 6 would net Action Surge, too.

Thoughts?

[Dork_Forge]

We are starting at level 3, and I am getting a free feat due to taking a 'lower tier' race.

My plan is to take Sharpshooter for my free feat and tough it out for one level. At level 4, I could get Archery via a Fighter dip, or take 4th level in Artificer and trade the ASI for the Fighting Style feat that just came out, getting Archery that way.

I'm also waffling on Archery versus Close Quarters Shooter (CQS) ... the extra +1 for Archery is nice, but if the GM frequently puts me at disadvantage with the way he fights battles, I think CQS might be better.

Bottom line: I know I'll want Sharpshooter, but whether to take Archery or CQS first really depend on the GM, who is new to me.

Edit - heck, I guess I could get a feat at level 4, and do the Fighter dip at level 5, which would get me Sharpshooter, Archery, and CQS by level 5. A second Fighter dip at level 6 would net Action Surge, too.

Thoughts?

I wouldn't dip before 5th level, delaying Extra Attack will have a noticeable impact on your DPR in comparison to your party (and grabbing 2nd level Artificer spells will come in handy too).

From the looks of your OP stats you're starting with a 17 intelligence right? I'd say bump your Int at 4th, as a Battle Smith a lot keys off it and if you giv eup the ASI for a feat (and grab CQS, might want to double check your DM is okay with a defunct UA style by the way if you haven't already) then you're not actually gaining a to hit bonus, you're just substituting the one you'd otherwise be getting by raising your Int (but not getting the extra damage point).

I guess I'd go Battle Smith 5/Fighter 4/Battle Smith X (using Aid to compensate for a lower hp on your Steel Defender, taking the mending cantrip for it would be advised too).

I also just realised your race gives you a -4 penalty, that's incredibly severe and it being in Wisdom is even worse. Gunslinger would still give you 1 Grit point to play with (it's a minimum of 1) but jeez, you may want to consider a more ASI heavy build of Battle Smith 5/Fighter 8 to try and compensate for that and hope that you don't come across many Wisdom saves.

[pantastic]

I wouldn't dip before 5th level, delaying Extra Attack will have a noticeable impact on your DPR in comparison to your party (and grabbing 2nd level Artificer spells will come in handy too).

From the looks of your OP stats you're starting with a 17 intelligence right? I'd say bump your Int at 4th, as a Battle Smith a lot keys off it and if you giv eup the ASI for a feat (and grab CQS, might want to double check your DM is okay with a defunct UA style by the way if you haven't already) then you're not actually gaining a to hit bonus, you're just substituting the one you'd otherwise be getting by raising your Int (but not getting the extra damage point).

I guess I'd go Battle Smith 5/Fighter 4/Battle Smith X (using Aid to compensate for a lower hp on your Steel Defender, taking the mending cantrip for it would be advised too).

I also just realised your race gives you a -4 penalty, that's incredibly severe and it being in Wisdom is even worse. Gunslinger would still give you 1 Grit point to play with (it's a minimum of 1) but jeez, you may want to consider a more ASI heavy build of Battle Smith 5/Fighter 8 to try and compensate for that and hope that you don't come across many Wisdom saves.

Yeah, we tweaked the racial stats a little, and there is more to it than just the minuses. Between my lucky stat rolls (done in Roll20 chat for all to see, so totally legit) and my racial bonuses, my starting stats at level 3 will be:

STR - 15
DEX - 16
CON - 16
INT - 18
WIS - 12*
CHA - 9*

Both WIS and CHA for my Construct have a -2 racial adjustment, but there are other factors such as:
-2 WIS does not apply to Perception, or class based abilities (so grit would be 2 per day, but still ... :smallyuk: )
some minor situational bonuses for me to WIS saves (replicating it's hard to 'charm' a robot, essentially)

Essentially, the low WIS and CHA reflect a Construct that has difficulty innovating and improvising, as well as difficulty understanding social interactions. Honestly, I wish I had rolled one low stat for CHA, because that's how I'm going to ply it.

[Dork_Forge]

Yeah, we tweaked the racial stats a little, and there is more to it than just the minuses. Between my lucky stat rolls (done in Roll20 chat for all to see, so totally legit) and my racial bonuses, my starting stats at level 3 will be:

STR - 15
DEX - 16
CON - 16
INT - 18
WIS - 12*
CHA - 9*

Both WIS and CHA for my Construct have a -2 racial adjustment, but there are other factors such as:
-2 WIS does not apply to Perception, or class based abilities (so grit would be 2 per day, but still ... :smallyuk: )
some minor situational bonuses for me to WIS saves (replicating it's hard to 'charm' a robot, essentially)

Essentially, the low WIS and CHA reflect a Construct that has difficulty innovating and improvising, as well as difficulty understanding social interactions. Honestly, I wish I had rolled one low stat for CHA, because that's how I'm going to ply it.

Oh I'm glad it's not just terrible mods, that would have made for an awkward to play character. So for your Cha, -1 is still below average and you can roleplay your character however socially awkward you want, that isn't dependent on a stat. For Wisdom, you'd have one Grit point as it's Grit=Wis Mod (minimum of 1). Unless you plan on wearing Plate somehow (you'd need to start Fighter to get the proficiency) I think you'd be better served with the higher Wis than Str.

On Grit in general, it's not a long rest resource, so as your stats currently are you'd get 1 Grit point per rest (short or long) but you also get a Grit point back (up to your max) whenever you kill a creature or crit with a Firearm.

[pantastic]

Unless you plan on wearing Plate somehow (you'd need to start Fighter to get the proficiency) I think you'd be better served with the higher Wis than Str.

I put a 14 in WIS, and with the -2 racial bonus that equals 12.
I put a 13 in STR, and with the +2 racial bonus that equals 15.

If I wanted to start with higher WIS, I'd have to rob either from DEX or INT, which I think is a bad idea. Since the racial bonus specifically exempts Perception checks, I don't think a higher WIS is really needed. I mean, grit gives some great tactical flexibility, but I'm just not sure using any/all of my remaining levels on Gunslinger class is worth it.

On Grit in general, it's not a long rest resource, so as your stats currently are you'd get 1 Grit point per rest (short or long) but you also get a Grit point back (up to your max) whenever you kill a creature or crit with a Firearm.[/QUOTE]

I did think that it was a long rest only, so it's good to know that it is short rests as well. Thank you.

We are starting at level 3, and honestly I hope we will stay there at least for a little bit. I know most GM's are prone to advance levels after a few sessions (usually roughly equal to you current level, so I probably have 3 sessions to figure out what I want to do at level 4). Honestly, I'd kind of like to get a feel for both my character (how it plays, strengths and weaknesses, etc), and this new group (and even the GM) before I have to decide what the best path forward is.

I think I'll like the Artificer very well at level 3 ... I just can't stay there forever, so I have to figure out "now what."

[Dork_Forge]

I put a 14 in WIS, and with the -2 racial bonus that equals 12.
I put a 13 in STR, and with the +2 racial bonus that equals 15.

If I wanted to start with higher WIS, I'd have to rob either from DEX or INT, which I think is a bad idea. Since the racial bonus specifically exempts Perception checks, I don't think a higher WIS is really needed. I mean, grit gives some great tactical flexibility, but I'm just not sure using any/all of my remaining levels on Gunslinger class is worth it.

On Grit in general, it's not a long rest resource, so as your stats currently are you'd get 1 Grit point per rest (short or long) but you also get a Grit point back (up to your max) whenever you kill a creature or crit with a Firearm.

I did think that it was a long rest only, so it's good to know that it is short rests as well. Thank you.

We are starting at level 3, and honestly I hope we will stay there at least for a little bit. I know most GM's are prone to advance levels after a few sessions (usually roughly equal to you current level, so I probably have 3 sessions to figure out what I want to do at level 4). Honestly, I'd kind of like to get a feel for both my character (how it plays, strengths and weaknesses, etc), and this new group (and even the GM) before I have to decide what the best path forward is.

I think I'll like the Artificer very well at level 3 ... I just can't stay there forever, so I have to figure out "now what."[/QUOTE]

Ahh gotcha thanks for explaining the stat part.

I can understand wanting to feel out your character, in terms of Artificer it's very frustrating to me as a builder because it's just so good. Back when it was in UA you could just jump ship because after level 6 it was pretty much a cliff, but now they've spread everything out so you're pretty much always getting or looking forward to something cool (Flash of Genius was a great addition, partially for this reason). I don't think you'll be worrying about what next until you're level 5 looking towards level6, up to level 5 everything you need is pretty much in Artificer and you don't really want to postpoine your ASIs/subclass feature.

As for Gunslinger, the only reason to go higher than 4 levels imo is if you want the glut of ASIs Fighter as a whole provides or want a crazy high initiative.