Things I miss from 3.5

[Drache64]

I miss having the leadership feat. It was fun to have a host of characters at my command and to have a lower level helper as my assistant.

I miss monkey grip and being able to dual wield great swords.

I miss the wide variety of prestige classes from various books like cerebmancer, eye of Gruumsh, virtuoso. Instead of seeing the same few classes mixed and matched with multiclassing every character in 3.5 felt extremely unique.

Why don't I just play 3.5? Because all my friends are too intimidated by it.

What do you miss?

Is anything I listed actually possible in 5e??

[Mikal]

I miss having the leadership feat. It was fun to have a host of characters at my command and to have a lower level helper as my assistant.

I miss monkey grip and being able to dual wield great swords.

I miss the wide variety of prestige classes from various books like cerebmancer, eye of Gruumsh, virtuoso. Instead of seeing the same few classes mixed and matched with multiclassing every character in 3.5 felt extremely unique.

Why don't I just play 3.5? Because all my friends are too intimidated by it.

What do you miss?

Is anything I listed actually possible in 5e??

Mostly the actual robust discussions due to more product and a stronger rule set.

Today it’s just a rehash of “is this really basic thing broken?” Or literally pages of discussion because of vague wording and people disagreeing on its meaning, which didn’t happen as often due to the more precise language

[Hytheter]

I don't miss feat taxes and trap feats but I do miss getting more feats by default. I liked being a Human Fighter and getting three feats at level 1 and a feat per level until level 6! That said, I do enjoy having actual class features too.

[Ogre Mage]

I miss the glitterdust spell.

[thoroughlyS]

I feel like in some cases, y'all are viewing the game through rose-tinted glasses.




I miss monkey grip and being able to dual wield great swords.
Monkey Grip didn't allow you to dual wield greatswords. It allowed you to wield weapons sized for a creature one size larger, so you could wield a Large longsword (which dealt 2d6 slashing damage, the same as a greatsword), but with a -2 penalty to hit. The real benefit of this was an average +2.5 damage per attack. For comparison, Power Attack let you take a penalty to hit (to a maximum of your Base Attack Bonus) for an equivalent bonus to damage. This was more versatile and became more useful as you grew in level. On top of that, if you lost your oversized weapons, you lost any benefit from this feat whereas you can use Power Attack with any nonlight weapon you find. And you can't just assume that your DM would let you wield greatswords as if they were Large longswords, because there was just as much of an understanding that every table was different as there is now. (I personally would allow it, but with the additional -2 penalty from wielding improperly sized weapons. After all, greatswords are inherently balanced differently than longswords, so they would still feel weird in your hands.)

I miss the wide variety of prestige classes from various books like cerebmancer, eye of Gruumsh, virtuoso. Instead of seeing the same few classes mixed and matched with multiclassing every character in 3.5 felt extremely unique.
I don't miss the massive number of trap options that I have to sift through in order to find anything valuable, nor the sets of prestige classes that were all menat to represent the same thing (e.g. Weapon Master vs Kensei, Dread Necromancer vs True Necromancer).

Is anything I listed actually possible in 5e??
Because a lot of stuff from 3.5 was just incremental number bonuses, and only a handful of features ever actually gave you new things to do, a lot of the flavor can absolutely be transferred over to 5e. I once offered my advise on how to convert a Fighter 11/Shadowblade 5 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=22724344&postcount=12). Most of what the Shadowblade offered was negligible when moving from v3.5's ever-compounding bonuses to 5E's bounded accuracy. There will be some stuff that just doesn't transfer (like the shapershifter druid variant), but for the most part, you can absolutely preserve the ideas underlying the stuff from v3.5.




Mostly the actual robust discussions due to more product and a stronger rule set.

Today it’s just a rehash of “is this really basic thing broken?” Or literally pages of discussion because of vague wording and people disagreeing on its meaning, which didn’t happen as often due to the more precise language
v3.5 had just as many inconsistencies and vagueries as 5E, and you need look no further than these very boards (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?267985-Completely-Dysfunctional-Handbook-3-5) for proof. I would argue that 5E has the "stronger" ruleset,because it is simpler. It still has rough patches (like the rules for stealth) but they are far less frequent.




I don't miss feat taxes and trap feats but I do miss getting more feats by default. I liked being a Human Fighter and getting three feats at level 1 and a feat per level until level 6! That said, I do enjoy having actual class features too.
Feats in 5E offer more benefits each than in v3.5, which included such gems as "+1 dodge bonus to AC against one target" and "you no longer have to spend extra skill points on cross class skills".



There isn't really anything I "miss" because I believe a lot of the best ideas from v3.5 can be represented through reflavoring existing material or mix'n'matching traits and features here and there. I think the biggest gaps are for people who want to play an incarnum shaper or martial initiators, who rely on systems that don't exist in the game.

[DeadMech]

I mean anything is possible if your DM is willing but... it's hard to justify spending money on books with that attitude.

What do I miss... It's a long list that devolves into a rant if I think about it too long.

The Genesis spell. Now I've come to accept that I will never get to play a game of DnD to a high enough level that I'll actually get to use a 9th's level spell... let alone one as not directly useful to battle as this one... But I can dream. And who wouldn't want their own personal demiplane paradise. Neat high level stuff like that is aspirational.

Inevitables. I love them. Mechanus is conceptually one of my favorite planes. Formians are don't do it for me. Modrons are great but aestetically are a mess at the higher levels. They are all goofy but like the base monodrone you could make a plushie out of it and it would probably sell. I was excited to flip through MToF's when I noticed that the Marut was in it. Until I got to and read it's entry. It's a mess. But of the 3.5 stock I loved them all but the Kolyarut was probably my favorite of the bunch. I just like the idea of these completely out of place robocops wandering around the setting disrupting everyone's day to day life to catch and punish some random dude who broke the rules. And knowing the average adventuring party that random dude is probably the party's rogue but it really could end up being any of the screw ups.

Crusaders. I've posted enough about that lately though.

I'mma cut myself off there though before I end up ranting about 5e's skill system or lack thereof and the lack of save progression and such. I don't need to spend the night typing up another full page rant that I'll probably decide to delete before I finish. Again.

[Waazraath]

I loved 3.5, also love 5e. The latter is more robust in my opinion, partly due to a more streamlined ruleset, partly because there is much less published material. There is what I miss: going endlessly through books to find more combinations, fun unconventional ways to get something to work, exploring new subsystems like Psionics or Soulbinding.

The 'building a character' has become less interesting imo (even though the game itself is better in many ways - especially cause it's more accessible to folks for whom 3.5 was too much).

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I mainly miss 3.5e bards(I loved to see the big number/dice on every party member roll).
The crusader (my favourite was to get a single level of Warrior Skald for level 20 devoted spirit and bard songs with a feat that combine the progression of the classes).
I miss the amount of prestige class and options
I miss the power level being a gentleman agreement instead of being set.
I miss the ability to over specialise into a specific are.
I miss the ability to truly dump stuff.
I miss the options.

I do enjoy 5e, but if I will find a group that plays 3.5e I will join them in a heart bit

[Fynzmirs]

I mostly miss the rules for things BBEGs do. I know that sometimes one just wants to tell a story and not bother about the number of skeletons the evil necromancer can command, but the rules were there and a high level PC could actually become a BBEG without having to find a "dark artifact" or having a DM create special rules for him. Stuff like Leadership, Genesis, Earthquake, Dread Necromancer, Mindrape, Dominate Person (the real one, not what 5e gives us), rules for PC Liches, PC monsters (however weak may they be), evil prestige classes or spells for creating every undead in existance. Things that may be weak or strong in day to day adventuring, but they actually have some effect on the greater scale of things.

[HappyDaze]

I don't miss Leadership at all, and not because PCs in my game don't have followers & henchmen, but because they can do it in 5e without spending a Feat. Often they have basic mercenaries (Guard from MM) and guides (Scout from MM) as hirelings, but sometimes they'll go for more if they can afford it and/or the story allows (they currently have a few Lizardfolk [from the MM entry] as their NPC 'troops').

[T.G. Oskar]

The Genesis spell. Now I've come to accept that I will never get to play a game of DnD to a high enough level that I'll actually get to use a 9th's level spell... let alone one as not directly useful to battle as this one... But I can dream. And who wouldn't want their own personal demiplane paradise. Neat high level stuff like that is aspirational.

Doesn't the Demiplane spell do something similar? It's a lot more muted, since it's a 30-ft. by 30-ft. room, rather than a small island, but for the most part it's the same thing. The main difference is that a casting of Genesis made the demiplane larger, whereas a subsequent casting of Demiplane just reopens the shadowy door to access it.

As to what I miss from 3.5? Well, really minor stuff. Power Attack being variable rather than fixed, for one. Agile Shield Fighter and Shield Ward for another - Shield Master is super good, but the way the bonus action Shove works by RAW is painful, and the shove doesn't do damage in the first place. Fun feats like, say, Brutal Attack (debuff when you use Power Attack with a bludgeoning weapon) or Intimidating Strike (lower your attack bonus, impose the lowest fear condition on the target). Intimidate allowing you to Demoralize an opponent, allowing anyone to have a fairly good debuff early on, particularly if worked with (i.e., the Imperious Command feat/Never Outnumbered skill trick combination, coupled with some sort of quickened use of Demoralize). TWF not requiring spending any action to grant the new attack (though GOOD RIDDANCE to iterative attack penalties!). Paladins having the 3.5 equivalent of Warding Bond in their spell list. Combat Reflexes feat (i.e., more uses of Opportunity Attacks, though requiring Dexterity was painful). Divine feats. Intelligence giving you essentially more skills known (through additional skill points) and more languages to learn. And so on.

That said, there's a few things from 3.5 that I don't miss. For one, the Full Attack action. (Whaddya mean I can't use all my attacks if I move more than 10 ft.?) Cool feats locked behind a score of Int 13. (When you depend on more than three scores and you don't have many feats, having an Intelligence of 13 through point buy wasn't very viable.) High-level casters having more than 2 spell slots for the highest levels (though I feel Sorcerers got shafted in this edition in terms of spells known). Feat chains, especially ones that are ridiculous (I'm talking to you, Whirlwind Attack!). The whole concept of the "move" action (really; I need to spend several feats AND have a decent Dex to be able to move, attack, and move again? And I still get an OA by doing so?) Fighter not getting class features. (Action Surge and Second Wind were the two best things Fighters snatched from 4e! ...Not trying to offend those who loved the AEDU format of powers; that's another discussion to have.) Cantrips not being infinite and not scaling properly (yeah, in case you say "but PF1e had cantrips with infinite uses!"; 1d4 damage by 5th level just won't cut it anymore, Acid Splash)

I'll set one thing apart: feat slots. I like in 3.5 that feat slots are separate from ASIs, because it makes feats relevant. However, half the fun is figuring out at what point to use an ASI and when to choose a feat. Even if 3.5 had more feat slots and more feats, feat chains and harsher prerequisites made some of these feats worthless, or less useful as you gain levels. And some feats were just junk. I consider 5e feats to be vastly superior to 3.5 feats (with counted exceptions) because you get small packets of useful abilities no matter what (proficiency feats in 5e being the only exception). Power Attack in principle is superior to Great Weapon Master, but you get the bonus attack action from GWM in addition to the effect from PA. Sure - the Leap Attack/Shock Trooper - Heedless Charge ability was just peachy, and when adding Pounce (one of the only ways you could effectively move and use all your attacks) was fun as heck, but the amount of feats you needed to get it meant you didn't saw that in play early on unless you were a Fighter. And that's comparing one of the better feats - Skulker is vastly superior to Stealthy (though not to Darkstalker), Alert is vastly superior to Alertness (it has Improved Initiative built in!), and even the Actor feat is pretty fun to work with. And then there's Magic Initiate, which is far, FAR superior to the Complete Arcane feats that granted you limited cantrips and 1st level spells 1/day. And Leadership was just broken and should have been something left to the DM, because getting a whole new character as a feat is just asking for trouble, particularly if you're a Wizard and you get a pet Cleric as a cohort.

[Mork]

I miss incremental skill increases. That you could pick up some skills as you leveled up later, which is harder in 5e (yeah you can train to become proficient in downtime, but I've always interepted this as become proficient in a language or tool, not a skill).
Also that you have to choose between feats and ASI. I often feel like I have to keep up with ASI, as this makes everything I do become better, and it's one of the few ways to get better at something in 5e. While at the same time feats allow you to do more stuff, it gives options. having to choose between those two can feel painfull at times.

[ezekielraiden]

I miss having the leadership feat. It was fun to have a host of characters at my command and to have a lower level helper as my assistant.
Honestly? Good riddance to bad rubbish, I say. Leadership is one of the most obvious examples of how 3.5e could not properly balance a cube on a level, flat surface. I totally get the desire for that specific character-fantasy, but I'm pretty sure there's no way to give you what you want without completely throwing balance out the window.


I miss monkey grip and being able to dual wield great swords.
This, at least, I can understand. Of course, keep in mind that "dual wield" in 5e just means you can make a single extra attack (not the Attack Action) using your bonus action. So...it really wouldn't do very much for you even if you could.


I miss the wide variety of prestige classes from various books like cerebmancer, eye of Gruumsh, virtuoso. Instead of seeing the same few classes mixed and matched with multiclassing every character in 3.5 felt extremely unique.
On the one hand, I empathize. I liked several of the PrCs. On the other? It was a nightmare and a slog to build an actually effective character. It would be nice to see PrCs return with 5e's changed perspective: focused, reasonably balanced, and NOT just there to eventually enable basic character concepts, but to do something different that wouldn't normally be possible even by mixing together existing classes. (That's what I did with my Silver Pyromancer PrC.)


What do you miss?
Most 4e stuff that 5e either left out, crapped on, or poorly copied. I doubt going into more detail would be useful to either of us.


Is anything I listed actually possible in 5e??
There's a background that accomplishes a small part of the Leadership feat, the Knight variant of the Noble. You'll never get a second player character (which is good, because that will never be worth just a single feat), but you get some retainers who can do stuff for you. It's pretty limited since it's a background, but...well, it at least approximates what you're asking for.

Monkey Grip would probably make sense as a feat, perhaps with some tweaking to fit the 5e environment. I wouldn't be surprised if someone already had done the work, actually.

[opaopajr]

I miss nothing. :smalltongue:

But I think you should GM your own 3.5e game, even if it is for only one player, so you can play your type of fun! :smallsmile: Perhaps entice someone with the promise of running E6 variant if they are intimidate? You should have your fun too, so go run your own favorite system and maybe you can spread the love to new blood.

[stoutstien]

I miss the artwork. Nothing wrong with 5e other then a lot of reprinted material and the constant wondering of what kind of drugs was the artist on when they decided on that halfling design.

[Xervous]

I miss the discussion of various builds and characters being about all manner of exotic things rather than spreadsheet number whinging that's more reminiscent of 4e analysis.

[Dienekes]

Tome of Battle is the obvious answer for me. Having gone back and played a Warblade after a few years of 5e it is remarkable how much more fun it is than the Battlemaster on a round to round level.

On that note, I wish WotC would create different resource mechanics. Everything in the game is At Will, Short Rest, or Long Rest dependent. Which for one, I think is slightly worse than 4es At Will, Encounter, Daily method of doing things (thankfully the classes don’t all follow the exact same power gaining pattern like they did in base 4e). But for the other, it’s gotten old. Figuring out how to restore things mid-combat or as part of some action was fun and added an interesting level to the tactics of the game.

And lastly, I do kind of think that a lot of the monsters are a bit on the dull side. Not all, there are a few with interesting abilities and Legendary Action is a great little system. But as a GM I’ve often found myself grafting some abilities from 3.5 or 4e to monsters just to give them a bit more to do and surprise my players a bit.

[Dr. Cliché]

I much preferred how damage reduction and elemental resistance worked in 3.5.

The old system seemed far superior to the current 'Resistant/Immune' in both mechanics and flavour/verisimilitude.



I mostly miss the rules for things BBEGs do. I know that sometimes one just wants to tell a story and not bother about the number of skeletons the evil necromancer can command, but the rules were there and a high level PC could actually become a BBEG without having to find a "dark artifact" or having a DM create special rules for him. Stuff like Leadership, Genesis, Earthquake, Dread Necromancer, Mindrape, Dominate Person (the real one, not what 5e gives us), rules for PC Liches, PC monsters (however weak may they be), evil prestige classes or spells for creating every undead in existance. Things that may be weak or strong in day to day adventuring, but they actually have some effect on the greater scale of things.

Also this.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The main thing in 3.5 I miss is the sheer range of subsystems and quirky prestige classes, especially the later ones where WotC figured out they could get away with interesting at-will abilities. Psionics, Tome of Battle, Magic of Incarnum, Binders, Warlocks, Chameleons... good times. Probably why I've been working on porting them (https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/g8T2tW3Z7) to 5e (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615177-5e-Tome-of-Battle-Brainstorming-2-0).

I also enjoyed the wealth of alternate class features, mainly because of how good it felt to trade out almost every part of a core class for something stronger or more interesting.


Mostly the actual robust discussions due to more product and a stronger rule set.

Today it’s just a rehash of “is this really basic thing broken?” Or literally pages of discussion because of vague wording and people disagreeing on its meaning, which didn’t happen as often due to the more precise language
I don't know what 3.5 forums were you hanging out on, but "literally pages of discussion because of vague wording" probably sums up half the long threads on the 3.5 sub here.

[Ignimortis]

Basically everything that isn't related to how the game actually functions on a turn-to-turn basis. I don't miss Full Attack or firing into melee or iterative attack penalties, but almost everything else?

Non-PHB classes in 3.5 are still the pinnacle of D&D design in my eyes, as can be seen from my signature, and yet somehow 5e didn't learn a single thing from them, instead going to the vastly divided and semi-borked PHB classes, only improving on them somewhat.

The power curve in 5e is stagnant and dull. 3.5 really pushed on with the "zero to hero to demigod" scale. 5e is mostly "semi-competent to very competent" unless you cheese things (I had 32 passive perception once, was one of the few times I actually felt a payoff from my build).

No Magic Item Christmas Tree is welcome, I suppose, but it feels like most items are so underwhelming when compared to a flat +1 boost to anything worthwhile like AC/to-hit/saves.

Damage Reduction/Immunity worked much better when they were a number. DR15 instead of Resistance to P/B/S makes for much better scaling.

Heck, I could make a proper Final Fantasy Dragoon in 3.5. 5e doesn't do that.

[Spriteless]

I miss stuff in splat books that is fun to read, even if it wasn't useful to the campaign. Stuff like the Guardinals, furry neutral good outsiders, as a counterpart to the feathery lawful good outsiders and the fairy chaotic good outsiders. Tiny dinosaurs that steal eggs, and might make a good familiar for a Talenta Halfling. Exotic familiars in general, 'trap' though they are rules wise. This stuff is fun flavor to read, but rare to use in game.

They could just commission more travelogue style fantasy adventure novels and I'd be happy. Shoot, I'd be happy if the Young Adventurer's Guide series was on cheap novel paper and priced per page to match, instead of glossy rules books.

The idea that, if a prestige class almost gives you what you want, you and your DM can change it, collaboratively. Not a style of play one finds in message boards, but it is in the spirit of the SRD. Not that I haven't let players alter backgrounds to get them out of folk hero/haunted one or bounty hunter. I guess automatic help from normies or thieves tools proficiency are such game changers that they don't want to let them go.

I miss there being so many freaking options, that you could declare "no wizards, sorcerers, clerics, or druids in this campaign, but psionics and PHB2 classes instead" for example. While I know it's a fallacy to say "If you can fix it it's not a problem," that was an easy way to fix CoDzilla. In 5E you have to be all mature, confront the problem, and rely on the fact that everyone is here to have a good time. Which is good. Jeremy wants a good fun game for all involved. And that is how it should be for people's first game, which D&D is, so good job. This is a good thing and not a problem.

I just think the adversarial style also has its place. Patchers verses exploiters in a face to face setting instead of an online game was... unique? I mean, the likes of Vampire and Paranoia have it, but with no pretense of fairness.

But, I'm having more fun when the rules don't create 'that guy,' so maybe I should just find a competitive card game to play for adversarial feels.

[Telok]

I miss making a warrior who could jump 90 feet over a phalanx of hobgoblin pikes and gut a mage with a slngle blow. Who could hear invisible monsters and actually resist charm spells more than 1/4th the time.

I miss making a scholar wizard who knew all the things about all the monsters, who wouldn't randomly get outperformed by the 8 int barbarian because of the d20. Who took a noticeable hit to total power level in order to have any spell available in half an hour.

I miss the crazed, scarred, hairless, dwarf with supernatural toughness & smiting, powered by his insanity. Converting drow priestesses to the cult of the close shave by throwing battle axes at them. Barbarian 5/paladin 5 is the closest 5e gets, and it's bad.

I miss real self-buffing gishes who weren't just wizards with a rapier. I miss psychic warriors with imaginary friends who turned real and fought beside them (astral construct).

I miss psions, binders, and other magics that weren't based on spell slots.

[Pex]

To no one's surprise: DC example tables for skill use, along with Take 10/Take 20.

A decent Point Buy System. I prefer Pathfinder's, but 3E's is ok and better than 5E.

Psionics. (Heh, I remember a long time ago I didn't care for psionics in D&D. Psionics was for science fiction.)

Tome of Battle. It was pure fun.

Saving throws improving as you level, and there are only three of them.

[2D8HP]

[...]What do you miss?[...]


I miss Greyhawk as the default setting instead of the Realms (the 5e Saltmarsh adventure still takes place on Oerth like the 1e one, so that's nice).

I miss how the 3.5 Ranger took more levels to first get spells.

I thought the 3.5 version of the Scout from The Complete Adventurer was cool.

The colossal amount of third party content for 3.5 was impressive.

That's about it.

[Pex]

I also miss my gaming groups of the time. One group lasted 12 years across three and half campaigns in the same game world that ended due to DM burn out. The second was technically Pathfinder that lasted about 2 years ending when the DM decided to mature into adulthood.

[LudicSavant]

I miss Greyhawk as the default setting instead of the Realms (the 5e Saltmarsh adventure still takes place on Oerth like the 1e one, so that's nice).

I too miss Forgotten Realms *not* being the primary setting.

I also miss the pre-Gleemax forums.

[Chalkarts]

I miss being able to kill with Ray of Enfeeblement.
I miss Kobolds that weren't craven little cowards whose only skill is Groveling.
I miss Prestige classes.

[rickayelm]

I miss Incarnum, it was probably my favorite thing from 3.5.