Bad News + Ranger Volley + Samurai Advantage - my riff on the 'max multi attack'

[pantastic]

In researching maximum number of attack builds, I've seen several posts discussing the theoretical limits of maximum number of attacks per turn. This isn't quite that, but just an interesting combo that occurred to me:

Ranger 11 / Fighter 3 / Artificer 2:

Ranger (Hunter) 11
.....Fighting Style: +2 on all ranged attack rolls
.....Sharpshooter: may take -5 to attack rolls for +10 to damage rolls
.....Volley <action>: make ranged attack rolls against any number of creatures within 10' of a point you can see
Fighter (Samurai) 3
.....Fighting Style-Close Quarters Shooter: +1 bonus attack rolls on ranged attacks
.....Action Surge: take another attack action
.....Fighting Spirit <bonus action>: give yourself advantage on all weapon attack rolls this turn
Artificer 2
.....Infusion-Repeating Shot: +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapon; ignore loading property

BadNews:
.....Attack Rolls +10 : +6 Proficiency, +5 INT, +2 Archery, +1 Close Quarters Fighter, +1 Repeating Shot, -5 Sharpshooter
.....Damage 2d12 +16: +5 INT, +10 Sharpshooter, +1 Repeating Shot

***PC's Turn***
Bonus Action-Fighting Spirit: gain advantage on all weapon attack rolls this turn
Attack-Volley: make ranged attack rolls against any number of creatures within 10' of a point you can see
.....Attack Rolls: +10
.....Damage Rolls: 2d12 (~13) + 16 = 29 damage per hit
Action Surge-Volley: same as above

I don't even know how to calculate the damage on that. I'm sure somebody could boost it even more.

<now do it using the Volley *spell* with spell enhancements (larger AOE, etc)>

Did I mess anything up? Any way to improve it? I'm not going to build this PC (well, maybe for a ridiculous one-shot), just thought it was an interesting idea.

Cheers!

[Contrast]

I'm not sure using Bad News is a good idea.

Firstly, note that the Loading trait and the Reload trait are different things. Repeating Shot specifically addresses Loading not Reload. Of course your DM may be prepared to hand wave this.

However Bad News has another trait - Misfire. Every time you fire it there's a 15% chance it'll break and require an action to fix. This drops to only 2.25% with advantage but given that screws up your whole combo and your intent is to be rolling loads of attacks I'm not particularly convinced the extra damage it worth the risk. If you make 10 attacks in your turn with adv there's about a 20% chance one of those attacks will bust your weapon - not so bad if its the last but very bad if its the first.

Perhaps be a halfling to help mitigate? Or just don't use Bad News :smallbiggrin:

Also without DM fiat I do not believe you have proficiency in firearms.

You've also said you're adding Int to hit and damage but you've only specified Art2 - did you mean 3 to pick up Battlesmith?

I will also say I'd ask your DM before assuming Close Quarters Shooter is ok to take. They're from an old UA and it and Tunnel Fighter are both probably never going to see the light of day (for good reason in my opinion).

[iTreeby]

Echo Knight gets slightly more attacks under certain conditions but I believe it's an extra melee attack as part of the attack action. It maybe doesn't work for your build but i thought I'd mention it.

Gloom Stalker gets an extra attack that is possibly easier to guarantee than volley is.

Monks flurry is an obvious way to get more attacks.


Volley doesn't give you more attacks than normal against single targets and might only help against hordes of enemies, that were unlikely to take multiple shots to kill anyway.

[pantastic]

Echo Knight gets slightly more attacks under certain conditions but I believe it's an extra melee attack as part of the attack action.

You are correct. Echo Knight and Action Surge combine pretty well; I came up with roughly ~109 average damage using a "full turn" of attacks (including Bonus and Reaction). I'm sure that could be increased by a 'professional' optimizer.


Gloom Stalker gets an extra attack that is possibly easier to guarantee than volley is.

I wonder if that would stack with Action Surge? I haven't really looked at Gloom Stalker.


Monks flurry is an obvious way to get more attacks.

Absolutely. I thought about making a Mandolorian build: "Weapons are part of my religion."


Volley doesn't give you more attacks than normal against single targets and might only help against hordes of enemies, that were unlikely to take multiple shots to kill anyway.

True. I realize the usefulness of the combo I laid out is highly specific, even prohibitive.

I just thought it was a fun exercise.

[Chronos]

What is this "bad news"?

[king_steve]

What is this "bad news"?

Its a weapon from the Gunslinger fighter subclass by Matt Mercer from Critical Roll. DM's Guild has a copy of the PDF for free (well, pay what you want, including $0) https://www.dmsguild.com/product/170778/Gunslinger-Martial-Archetype-for-Fighters and its also on dndbeyond's website https://www.dndbeyond.com/equipment/bad-news

[Evaar]

Could be I'm misreading, but it looks like you're adding your intelligence bonus to the attack roll with only 2 levels in artificer. Unless this is something to do with this Bad News weapon, you wouldn't get that until you hit the Battlesmith subclass at 3.

[heavyfuel]

Theoretically, you can get a dozen enemies in the AoE, but realistically, you're getting two, maybe three.

So, at level 16, Once per short rest you can deal ~60 damage to three targets. At level 16. If you hit their AC. At level 16.

This isn't much different than a Fighter with 3 attacks using AS to just attack 6 times.

It's a neat trick, but I'd hardly build around it.

[MaxWilson]

Theoretically, you can get a dozen enemies in the AoE, but realistically, you're getting two, maybe three.

So, at level 16, Once per short rest you can deal ~60 damage to three targets. At level 16. If you hit their AC. At level 16.

This isn't much different than a Fighter with 3 attacks using AS to just attack 6 times.

It's a neat trick, but I'd hardly build around it.

Agreed, but technically it would be four attacks because you're a Hunter 11 so you'd have Horde Breaker: one of the targets will take two attacks.

Fundamentally you're not doing anything with this build that a regular Hunter 11 wouldn't be able to do.

[pantastic]

Could be I'm misreading, but it looks like you're adding your intelligence bonus to the attack roll with only 2 levels in artificer. Unless this is something to do with this Bad News weapon, you wouldn't get that until you hit the Battlesmith subclass at 3.

Yep, that's supposed to be 3.

[pantastic]

I'm not going to build this PC (well, maybe for a ridiculous one-shot), just thought it was an interesting idea.


It's a neat trick, but I'd hardly build around it.

Thank you .

[Chronos]

Of course, if we're looking at damage per target times a large number of targets, and we don't mind spending resources to do it, we could just cast an area-effect spell with any spellcaster. The classic Fireball will hit more targets, for more damage each, than this combo.

[fbelanger]

Bad news : most of the time you will do 2 or 3 attacks.

[Nagog]

Isn't Bad News specifically regulated to the CR Gunslinger Subclass? Like it's one of the options you can build using the gunsmithing side of that class, DM be willing. Also if you go that route and get Bad News, you can't get Samurai as well because those are both Fighter subclasses.

[pantastic]

I picked "Bad News" simply because it was the gun with the best base damage. With this combo, I believe _any_ gun would work (or any crossbow, or any bow) ... just at lesser range/damage.

As people have pointed out: guns have a chance of misfiring, and Bad News is one of the highest. That can be eliminated by using a Heavy Crossbow, which would reduce the base damage to 1d10.

And if anybody wants to get froggy, feel free to math the numbers on doing this concept with the "Conjure Volley" spell ... but using spell enhancements to maximize the area of effect (I know they're out there, but I'm not going to go look them up). My recommendation would be the "Hand Mortar" for it's "Explosive" property, because obviously in this hypothetically ideal scenario everybody is crammed together like sardines in a can.

[Contrast]

And if anybody wants to get froggy, feel free to math the numbers on doing this concept with the "Conjure Volley" spell ... but using spell enhancements to maximize the area of effect (I know they're out there, but I'm not going to go look them up). My recommendation would be the "Hand Mortar" for it's "Explosive" property, because obviously in this hypothetically ideal scenario everybody is crammed together like sardines in a can.

Conjure Volley does a set amount of damage - 8d8. Changing weapon/ammunition doesn't change change that in any way and as far as I can see this build a) wouldn't gain access to it, ever and b) doesn't really have any abilities that directly interact with casting it to make it more effective.

Apologies if I'm missing something obvious.

Edit - you've mentioned spell enhancement to make the AoE bigger a coupe of times too. I'm not aware of any way to do this - care to share?

[pantastic]

Conjure Volley does a set amount of damage - 8d8 ...
Apologies if I'm missing something obvious.

Nope, you're right. I stared it right in the face and then immediately forgot it. I'm not really allocating any more of my limited brain cells to this topic, clearly. It was just a quick concept I thought I'd share.


Edit - you've mentioned spell enhancement to make the AoE bigger a coupe of times too. I'm not aware of any way to do this - care to share?

I haven't really done caster in 5e yet, especially not the type that usually manipulates spells (sorcerer via spell points). I assume there are ways to do that in 5e, but maybe that's just because 3.5x grew to have options like that for every imaginable scenario, and then some.

So, sorry, I don't have anything to share ... and I'm certainly not going to try and become and expert in 5e magic min/maxing just for this silly concept. It's so narrowly situational that it would almost never be useful in a normal game.

[Benny89]

The goal is to make some sort of ultimate ranger character?

Because if yes then standard Elf Samurai 12/4 Gloom Stalker/4 Assassin or Elf Samurai 12/3 Hexbladde/3 Gloom Stalker/2 Assassin is all you really need. Elven Accuracy +1 DEX, Sharpshooter, +2 DEX, Archery Style. You can even grab XBE later if you want for bonus action attack.

Advantage:

1. Fighting Spirit when there is no other way to get advantage.
2. Darkness + Devil's Sight combo when can be used. You won't affect your allies because you can shoot from riddiculous distance
3. If you are attacking from darkness (using vanilla Gloom Stalker) you have perma advantage vs even enemies with darkvision because you are invisible to them.

So Elven Accuracy is pretty much permanent.

You also get Assassin first turn burst + auto-crits + gloom stalker extra attack + action surge + gloom stalker extra action surge attack.

So you can attack 7 times in first turn, auto-crit everything, triple advantage + archery to ensure everything hits, and all of that with Sharpshooter +10 damage. Netting total of 7 x (2d8 + 15) + 4d6 = 182 burst damage.

If you can't get ambush, but can use your Gloom Stalker invisibility, you can open up with Curse on target and then attack with 7 x (1d8 + 20) + 2d6 = 178. And you have triple d20 + 19-20 crit range here.