Hide in Plain Sight

[Curelomosaurus]

For the shadow dancer's HiPS, it's unclear to me exactly how far the ability to hide while being watched goes. Can you attack and remain hidden? What about casting a spell? Could you theoretically just stay hidden 100% of the time, even while walking around normally?

[Doctor Despair]

For the shadow dancer's HiPS, it's unclear to me exactly how far the ability to hide while being watched goes.

It allows you to hide without cover so long as you are within 10 feet of a shadow, even while observed. That's all it does.



Can you attack and remain hidden? What about casting a spell? Could you theoretically just stay hidden 100% of the time, even while walking around normally?


Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a -5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (-20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging.

You can remain hidden 100% of the time as long as you are within 10 feet of a shadow other than your own. Casting a spell does not break hide, iirc, although verbal components allow for listen checks to find your square opposed to move silently, and somatic components might be problematic for your hide check, so Silent Spell could be helpful. You can attack while hidden for a -20 penalty on your hide check. There are separate rules for ranged attacks (sniping).


Sniping
If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a -20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot...

Action
Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

[Psyren]

Can you attack and remain hidden?

In theory yes. In practice this is nearly impossible (-20 to your check) but without this ability, you likely wouldn't be able to make a check at all.


What about casting a spell?

You can cast spells just fine while being hidden, though loud verbal components or visible may give away your position.


Could you theoretically just stay hidden 100% of the time, even while walking around normally?

Provided you walk in shadowy areas, yes, you can make Hide checks the entire time. Whether you are actually hidden however depends on anyone who might be looking for you.

[Doctor Despair]

In theory yes. In practice this is nearly impossible (-20 to your check) but without this ability, you likely wouldn't be able to make a check at all.


To be fair, if you're invisible, it perfectly balances out (+20 to your hide check).

[Psyren]

To be fair, if you're invisible, it perfectly balances out (+20 to your hide check).

I didn't mention that because if you have invisibility that persists through attacking (e.g. Greater Invis) then you generally don't need HiPS anyway.

[Doctor Despair]

I didn't mention that because if you have invisibility that persists through attacking (e.g. Greater Invis) then you generally don't need HiPS anyway.

That's also very fair.

[Gruftzwerg]

There are 2 options (one already been explained)

(1) remain hidden: requires a -20 hide roll for every attack !

(2) hide again: just make a regular hide roll

The difference:

Option (1) is useful when you are soloing stuff or your party is full stealth. Because no one will hear your attacks. And if you kill your enemy in your first round, the sound of your dying victim will be the sole sound that can be heard.

Option (2) is enough when you are the stealthy character in a regular non-stealth group. Since your party members will already make enough noise, there is almost no need to "remain hidden". Just hiding again (single roll even after full attack) after your attack(s) is enough. The sole reason to still take a -20 penalty to stealth would be to not let the enemies in your actual fight know that you are even there, but that ain't that mandatory imho.

[Gavinfoxx]

Just so you are aware, you generally need a few things combined to be amazing at hiding without spell support:

-crazy high hide and move silently
-darkstalker (feat)
-hide in plain sight (ability)
-camouflage (ability)

[Doctor Despair]

Just so you are aware, you generally need a few things combined to be amazing at hiding without spell support:

-crazy high hide and move silently
-darkstalker (feat)
-hide in plain sight (ability)
-camouflage (ability)

HiPS and/or Camouflage, right? Not both?

Technically you can use a Tower Shield for cover :p

Cerebral Blind is something that should be worked towards, too

The God-Blooded of Vecna template becomes required eventually for immunity to divinations

[Gavinfoxx]

No, you want both, ideally. They do two completely different things.

[Crake]

-camouflage (ability)

Depending on the high in plain sight being used, you may not need camouflage. The shadowdancer one doesn't require it.


Provided you walk in shadowy areas, yes, you can make Hide checks the entire time. Whether you are actually hidden however depends on anyone who might be looking for you.

You don't even need to be within shadowy areas, you merely need to be within 10ft of a shadow other than your own. 99% of the time this criteria will be satisfied, unless you're in some super strange circumstance, like out in a desert with no shade, and nobody else around (as even a single ally nearby would let you hide), or I also rule that a super overcast day where the sunlight is hyper diffused and thus makes no clear shadows, that would also make it hard to qualify unless someone is using a rather bright light source that is strong enough to cast a shadow.

Arguably also being underground with no light source, you could say there's no shadows, but you could then also argue that the entire place is one big shadow. The distinction matters, despite the pitch blackness, because being able to use hips or not still helps against creatures with darkvision.

[Gavinfoxx]

It was my understanding that HiPS let's you hide while being observed, as long as there was some form of cover or concealment, and Camouflage lets you hide without concealment or cover, as long as you are unobserved.

[tyckspoon]

HiPS and/or Camouflage, right? Not both?


Depends on which version of Hide in Plain Sight you have. Normally, in order to Hide, you must both not have anybody watching you, and be in cover or concealmeant (IE, nobody is directly seeing you try to Hide and you have to have something to Hide in.) Hide In Plain Sight is not a standardized ability - each instance of it works a bit differently. Rangers, for example, only get the ability to Hide while Observed - they still need some way to gain cover or concealment. Thankfully, they also got Camouflage earlier in their class, which obviates the other restriction and allows them to Hide anywhere in 'natural' terrain regardless of the actual presence of cover or concealing items. There are a few sources of Hide in Plain Sight that only cover the 'can Hide while observed', and leave it up to the user to either find another ability to remove the Cover/Concealment requirement or to have their own source of concealment (like a Smoking weapon or other portable source of sight-blocking.)

The Shadowdancer and Assassin get a pretty good version of HiPS, which is

Hide in Plain Sight (Su)
A shadowdancer can use the Hide skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.


So they can always Hide while observed, and if they're near a shadow then that satisfies/lets them ignore the Cover or Concealment restriction, no additional ability needed.