Wizard vs fighter, low level melee [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

WorstPlayerEver

2020-07-06, 05:18 PM

Wizard is probably using the Fighter feat variant in UA and has Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. Plus he can cast Nerveskitter. The Wizard's 1st level feat can be anything, but let's say it's Toughness. The Fighter's feats are probably Power Attack and Cleave, or Power Attack and Combat Reflexes, or Weapon Focus and Combat Reflexes, etc. Most beneficial to him for this exercise is probably Weapon Focus and Combat Reflexes. The Wizard is also a conjuration specialist with Abrupt Jaunt.

Both characters probably made Dex their second or third highest stat (Str > Con > Dex for the Fighter, Int > Con > Dex for the Wizard). The Wizard is probably a gray elf or similar, which gets a Dex bonus, the Fighter could be anything but may be a wood elf or earth dwarf. So let's say the Fighter has Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, while the Wizard has Int 18, Dex 16, Con 12. The Fighter is planning to take Combat Expertise so he has Int 13, and has dumped the other stats for Wis 10 and Cha 8. The Wizard probably has Str 10, other stats don't matter.

The Wizard's initiative bonus is ten higher than the Fighter's. If they were equal they would each win initiative 50% of the time. A +10 on a d20 roll is 50%, so that means 50% of the times the Fighter would have won initiative if their bonuses were equal, the Wizard wins instead, so the Wizard wins initiative 75% of the time. The Fighter has 13 hp, the Wizard has 8 hp.

If the Fighter wins initiative he swings two-handed against the Wizard's AC 10+Dex (13) with his BAB+WF+Str (+6) and hits roughly 65% of the time. He's dealing 2d6+6, so he takes the Wizard to 0 or lower if he hits. Out of 100 matches, the Fighter wins initiative on 25, and defeats the Wizard in the first round on 16 of those.

The Wizard will 5-ft. step away from the Fighter and cast Color Spray or some other save-or-lose spell targeting the Fighter's Will save. His DC is 15, the Fighter's save bonus is +0, so he fails 75% of the time. The Wizard has at least two rounds while he's unconscious to deliver repeated coup de grace attacks, which automatically critically hit for max damage. Even if the Fighter makes the save to survive a coup de grace, the Wizard's quarterstaff deals 12 damage each time he does it. So out of 100 matches, the Wizard wins initiative on 75, and defeats the Fighter in the first round on 56 of those.

If the Fighter goes first and misses (9 matches), the Wizard does his thing and wins on 7 of those, the remaining 2 matches go to a second round.
If the Wizard goes first and the Fighter makes his saving throw, the Fighter does his thing and the Wizard uses Abrupt Jaunt to avoid his attack, so all 19 of those matches go to the second round.

So out of 100 matches at 1st level, the Wizard wins in the first round on 63 of them, the Fighter wins in the first round in 16 of those, and the remaining 21 go to a second round. The Fighter 5-ft steps toward the Wizard and swings, the Wizard uses Abrupt Jaunt, so the Wizard starts his turn 10 feet away. The Wizard can sprint away, the Fighter is likely in medium armor or is a dwarf and moves slower, so he won't catch up and the Wizard can Abrupt Jaunt any ranged attacks he attempts until he's out of view due to terrain (he runs out of the dungeon, not into it). So the remaining 21 end in a draw.

It is actually worse than this for the Fighter on the initiative front. If the wizard has a +10 advantage on the initiative score, he or she will win the initiative 88.75% of the time and the Fighter will only win initiative 11.25% of the time.

JeminiZero

2020-07-06, 07:28 PM

What if the Fighter takes Willing Deformity & Deformity-Madness for immune to Mind Affecting?

Thunder999

2020-07-06, 08:23 PM

Biffoniacus_Furiou seems to have already covered what would happen if both had fairly normal builds, but what changes if the characters are specifically built to win this particular fight?

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2020-07-06, 08:24 PM

Are we doing a typical/believable Wizard versus a typical/believable Fighter, or are we doing a Wizard purpose-built to defeat this Fighter with metagame knowledte, and a Fighter purpose-built to defeat this Wizard with metagame knowledge? I'd say something like a Human Fighter with Toughness and Troll Blooded at 1st level is believable, but taking Deformity: Madness at 1st level is a bit of a metagame choice. It's actually believable to have a Wizard with Nerveskitter and who took Improved Initiative instead of Scribe Scroll. It's not exactly believable to have a Fighter who's purpose-built to beat Wizards, to the point that he's ill-equipped to fight pretty much everything else he may encounter.

Let's say you have a Human Fighter with two flaws for Willing Deformity, Deformity: Madness, Toughness, Troll Blooded, and Improved Initiative. Let's say you have a Human Wizard with two flaws for Toughness, Troll Blooded, Endurance, Diehard, and trade Scribe Scroll for Improved Initiative. The Fighter is carrying torches along with the means to light them, and has whatever the most optimal melee weapon is. The Wizard (Conjurer) has Acid Splash in all his cantrip slots, and Lesser Orb of Fire three times, plus a dagger and Abrupt Jaunt, and torches of his own. They both start with a lit torch, due to being humans in a cave. The Fighter is immune to spells like Color Spray and Power Word: Pain, but goes unconscious if he takes damage equal to his hp total due to his Regeneration. The Wizard also has Regeneration, but due to Diehard he doesn't go unconscious (see Frenzied Berserker gaining Diehard to not fall unconscious due to the nonlethal damage taken due to frenzy). Neither is aware the other has regeneration, they'll each melee the other confident in their ability to tank the other's damage due to their own regeneration.

When the Fighter goes first, he probably hits the Wizard but doesn't deal real damage to him. He'll probably try to hit him again hoping to knock him unconscious, unaware he has Diehard. If he's using a two-handed weapon he dropped his torch. When the Wizard goes first he starts trying to melee the Fighter with the dagger, still holding his torch. Once he manages to hit the Fighter he'll realize he also has regeneration and start 5-ft. stepping and casting his fire and acid spells on him in case he also has Diehard, reserving one of the Lesser Orb of Fire for a CDG if needed. If the Fighter switches to trying to hit him with the torch, he'll Abrupt Jaunt those attacks. He can use his own torch to make touch attacks on the Fighter for fire damage.

So while the Fighter has a means of dealing real damage to the Wizard, he won't be able to CDG with it, and the Wizard will automatically avoid a number of those attacks equal to his Int bonus. Meanwhile the Wizard will be dealing real damage to the Fighter with Acid Splash and Lesser Orb of Fire and his own torch. The Wizard can also hit the Fighter with his dagger until he goes unconscious, then deliver a 16 damage CDG with Lesser Orb of Fire.

If the Fighter also takes Endurance and Diehard instead of Deformity: Madness, the Wizard has Color Spray prepared twice and uses a Lesser Orb of Fire to CDG for 16 damage. Or the Wizard's tactics are unchanged because he can actually deal enough lethal damage to kill the Fighter.

ExLibrisMortis

2020-07-06, 09:58 PM

I had a thought, but unfortunately it doesn't work, because alter self is a more limited spell than you'd think (I mean, it's second-level, surely it should be a campaign breaker?!). You need polymorph to do this. Still, worth a chuckle, and perhaps someone can find a nice 5 HD alter self form that is worth it.

Can we stack enough CL boosters on Transmutation for a first-level elan wizard to alter self into a grell?

Grell have 5 HD and 10 tentacle attacks for 1d4+1 plus poison each. The poison causes paralysis. Grell also fly, have Improved Grab and Constrict, and +10 on grapple checks.

Base CL of 1, of course.
One feat for Precocious Apprentice to get the spell.
One trait for Spellgifted (Transmutation) to get +1 CL.
Trade in familiar to get School Mastery for +1 CL.
One flaw to get Mutable Body for +1 CL.
One flaw to get Primitive Caster to add a material component for +1 CL.

Just need to roll a 3 or higher on your CL check. 90% chance of grell achieved :smalltongue:.

(Why it doesn't work: alter self doesn't give you blindsight. Grell are blind.

Apart from that you also don't get the poison or grapple-related stuff, but that's acceptable.

I'd argue you do get their flight (since it's a "gross physical quality"), but it can be argued you are stuck with a 5' speed, too.)

JeminiZero

2020-07-06, 10:00 PM

I'd say something like a Human Fighter with Toughness and Troll Blooded at 1st level is believable, but taking Deformity: Madness at 1st level is a bit of a metagame choice.
How exactly is Willing Deformity-Madness meta-gamey? Immune to Mind Affecting is a HUGE benefit even outside this duel. Many other monsters use mind attacks. Feytouched does the same thing and is considered worth the 1 LA. Even at L1 you can expect things like Nixie, Grig and Puppeteer mental attacks (in addition to mind affecting spells from every sort of Arcanist). And as your levels go up - or rather, as the CR of monsters you expect to face goes up - its usefulness only gets better.

Going back to the builds, given the immense benefit of Trollblooded + Diehard combo, the Fighter would be better off swapping Improved Init and Toughness for it. (So: Willing Deformity, Deformity Madness, Trollblooded, Endurance, Diehard.) As above, I would note that this is a very useful build even outside duels with Wizards and should not be considered meta-gamey. A L1 fighter built like this can smash through most CR appropriate opponents that don't use fire/acid.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2020-07-06, 10:14 PM

How exactly is Willing Deformity-Madness meta-gamey? Immune to Mind Affecting is a HUGE benefit even outside this duel. Many other monsters use mind attacks. Feytouched does the same thing and is considered worth the 1 LA. Even at L1 you can expect things like Nixie, Grig and Puppeteer mental attacks (in addition to mind affecting spells from every sort of Arcanist). And as your levels go up - or rather, as the CR of monsters you expect to face goes up - its usefulness only gets better.

Going back to the builds, given the immense benefit of Trollblooded + Diehard combo, the Fighter would be better off swapping Improved Init and Toughness for it. (So: Willing Deformity, Deformity Madness, Trollblooded, Endurance, Diehard.) As above, I would note that this is a very useful build even outside duels with Wizards and should not be considered meta-gamey. A L1 fighter built like this can smash through most CR appropriate opponents that don't use fire/acid.

Toughness is required for Troll Blooded. Willing Deformity is required for Deformity: Madness. Endurance is required for Diehard. A Human Fighter 1 with two flaws gets five feats, he can't get all of that, there's an opportunity cost. Whichever set he doesn't get, the Wizard uses to beat him. Meanwhile the Wizard only needs to spend four feats on Troll Blooded and Diehard.

Gnaeus

2020-07-06, 10:23 PM

Maat Mons

2020-07-06, 10:38 PM

There's a Wizard build that can apply Fell Drain to Sonic Snap at 1st level, isn't there?

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2020-07-06, 10:50 PM

There's a Wizard build that can apply Fell Drain to Sonic Snap at 1st level, isn't there?

Fell Drain is a +2 metamagic. You can use Metamagic School Focus for a -1 reduction 3/day, it requires specializing in the school or Spell Focus. Easy Metamagic in Dragon 325 is another -1 reduction for that specific metamagic feat. If PF material is permitted, the Magical Lineage (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage/) trait is a permanent -1 metamagic cost for a specific spell. I'm not sure what other reducers you can get at 1st level, but any two of those will get the job done.

JeminiZero

2020-07-07, 12:15 AM

Toughness is required for Troll Blooded.

You're right, I missed that.

Well it’s a world specific, region specific dragon Magazine feat coupled with BOVD and Elder Evil feats that require you to be a diabolically evil, self-mutilated insane freak.
The question is how is Deformity-Madness meta-gamey, in the sense that it is a feat that fighters will take ONLY for this challenge. My argument is that it is a generally useful feat which is useful outside of this challenge.

I can only think that the campaigns wherein this is A allowed
If you are saying that it is from a rarely allowed source. Yes I agree. But it is from an official book, and is therefore allowed for this challenge.

The point I'm trying to make is that in a campaign where Deformity-Madness is allowed, it is believable that the Fighter will take it, even if he doesn't know that he will be duelling a wizard in a cave.

B functional are very, very rare. It’s hardly comparable to other listed fighter or wizard tactics.
I disagree. Getting immunity to mind-affecting is a fully legit tactic, and not just for fighters/wizards. It even has its own entry in the list of necessary magic items (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-).

You can say that the method used is from a rarely allowed source, in which case I fully agree. But immunity to mind affecting is a legitimate tactic.

Lans

2020-07-07, 12:38 AM

Twurps

2020-07-07, 09:06 AM

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2020-07-07, 10:24 AM

Short on Feats? Do you have a brain? Come on down to Junji Itos Unitarian Church of Elder Evils for 1 free feat. What you say you want more? JUICEE also gives you 1 free feat for every 5 HD. You would have to be willingly mad to turn down this offer that is limited to a select list of feats found in the book of elder evils, subject to DM glares, while supplies last

Right, but one needs to be a Fighter bonus feat, which none of those six are. So you're still one feat short, as it requires six general feats to get all of those shenanigans. Even if the Fighter has Diehard, the Wizard is dealing enough fire and acid damage to kill him. I think the Fighter is better off skipping Diehard to go with a Lesser Aasimar or Lesser Tiefling (Resist Acid 5 or Resist Fire 5 respectively). But even then, the Wizard wastes a Lesser Orb of Fire finding out he's resistant to it and switches to Acid Splash, or wastes an Acid Splash fining out he's resistant to that, and in either case can melee him down with a dagger until he's unconscious and CDG with lethal damage.

Funny you should bring this up, as I feel so far (As in every thread about wizards on this forum, so don't feel bad) it's the wizard that's build specifically for this challenge, more so than the fighter. So I would say: build the wizard where the challenge is going to be 1 of 4 things at lvl1.
1. another wizard (hey, there's more wizards doing this challenge after all)
2. A fighter
3. A skeleton
4. ... don't actually know, open to suggestions here. something different. A swarm?

Obviously, the same would go for the fighter. though like I said, it might matter less for the fighter.

Another big difference between fighter and wizard that always gets overlooked in this kind of threads is the fighter's stamina, vs the wizards ability to go nova. A single challenge will obviously favor the wizard. If both meet even a rat on their way to meeting each other, that could make quite the difference.

So let's say we have 16 contestants, divided evenly among the 4 categories above (so 4 of each). pitted in 1vs1 duels to the death. winners go to the next fight (So after 4 rounds of duals, there's 1 overall winner). All fights happen within 1 day, with 1 hour in between. What chance do the fighter and wizard stand then of becoming the overall winner?

I think we're at the point where they both have Troll Blooded for regeneration 1. They can each just face tank whatever else they encounter while meleeing it down, and spend zero daily resources.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-07, 10:55 AM

I think we're at the point where they both have Troll Blooded for regeneration 1. They can each just face tank whatever else they encounter while meleeing it down, and spend zero daily resources.

To be fair, if they take enough nonlethal damage without an immunity, they would go unconscious, and could be beaten into a coma with enough nonlethal damage (providing both could deal at least 2 damage per round), certainly counting as a win.

Gnaeus

2020-07-07, 11:09 AM

I disagree. Getting immunity to mind-affecting is a fully legit tactic, and not just for fighters/wizards. It even has its own entry in the list of necessary magic items (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?187851-).

You can say that the method used is from a rarely allowed source, in which case I fully agree. But immunity to mind affecting is a legitimate tactic.

Immunity to mind affecting is a legitimate tactic.

Turning yourself permanently into a terrifying vile insane monster at level 1 isn’t so much.

Best case the fight runs like this.

You kill the wizard. Go back to the tavern to celebrate. Murder their dog and make decorative garlands out of its insides so that you can really party hard. Because you are both diabolically evil and insane. You don’t even understand why the torch wielding mob is killing you. You hadn’t even gotten to the children yet. So it’s a draw.

JeminiZero

2020-07-07, 11:24 AM

You kill the wizard. Go back to the tavern to celebrate. Murder their dog and make decorative garlands out of its insides so that you can really party hard. Because you are both diabolically evil and insane. You don’t even understand why the torch wielding mob is killing you. You hadn’t even gotten to the children yet. So it’s a draw.
One of the great things of the Deformity-Madness feat is that you can blame all your actions on madness. Even if the actions are pure and good.

See a puppy? Pet it and give it food. GM asks why would a vile evil character do something like this? Simple, your madness drove you to do it!

Gnaeus

2020-07-07, 11:58 AM

One of the great things of the Deformity-Madness feat is that you can blame all your actions on madness. Even if the actions are pure and good.

See a puppy? Pet it and give it food. GM asks why would a vile evil character do something like this? Simple, your madness drove you to do it!

1. Why is this metagamey? That answer right there. I’m going to try to use feats that have crippling disadvantages to make them NPC only then ignore the disadvantage.

2. Why is it nonfunctional in a vast majority of games? Because if you take feats that are described as supernatural gifts from the foulest of entities and then do not perform appropriately, probably the nicest thing a reasonable DM would do is remove the benefits until you have Atoned for your puppy petting. So you are still a deformed (that’s permanent) insane (can’t see why you would lose that) freakish monster. You just aren’t immune to mind affecting until you get right with Hell. Being an insane fighter, lacking know arcana, planes or religion at a meaningful level, you probably don’t even know how screwed you are until you eat a color spray and show up at your bosses’ pad for a custom hellraiser experience complete with skin removal.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2020-07-07, 12:22 PM

To be fair, if they take enough nonlethal damage without an immunity, they would go unconscious, and could be beaten into a coma with enough nonlethal damage (providing both could deal at least 2 damage per round), certainly counting as a win.

But they also have Diehard (at least the Wizard does), which means they don't go unconscious at all.

Quertus

2020-07-07, 12:31 PM

So, the Wizard and Fighter *both* take Trollblooded and die-hard (and their prerequisite Toughness and Endurance). Maybe both take Improved Initiative, or maybe the Fighter takes +1 LA for mental immunity (although the Wizard is only +2 compared to the Fighter @ level 1…).

If it's a single challenge against a single random opponent, the Wizard only needs a single Nerveskitter.

If it's a 4-round 16-contestant fight, that's 4 Nerveskitter spells, leaving very little for offense at 1st level.

Color spray could *maybe* disable Fighters or Wizards alike. Not so good vs skeletons.

Heck, a Cleric might be an interesting option for the endurance match, what with healing and all. Especially at higher levels, if "a Shadow" was a potential level 3 challenger.

AFV - are there any CR 1 Dragons to really make the level 1 challenge hard?

Doctor Despair

2020-07-07, 12:31 PM

But they also have Diehard (at least the Wizard does), which means they don't go unconscious at all.

I don’t think Diehard interacts with nonlethal damage. Diehard lets you remain conscious when at negative HP, but nonlethal damage doesn't reduce your HP; you keep track of it separately, and become unconscious when it exceeds your current HP.

You'd need Half-Undead (Gheden) for immunity to nonlethal damage.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2020-07-07, 01:29 PM

I don’t think Diehard interacts with nonlethal damage. Diehard lets you remain conscious when at negative HP, but nonlethal damage doesn't reduce your HP; you keep track of it separately, and become unconscious when it exceeds your current HP.

You'd need Half-Undead (Gheden) for immunity to nonlethal damage.

Take a look at the Frenzied Berserker. It takes nonlethal damage every round during a frenzy, but it doesn't die when it's at negative hp. It also gets Diehard as a bonus feat. The nonlethal damage it takes for being in a frenzy would cause it to fall unconscious as soon as it hits negative hp, immediately ending the frenzy and allowing it to die, making it not function at all. However, that's not the case, and Diehard is the only thing mechanically that would enable it to work. Thus we can only conclude that Diehard applies to both regular damage and nonlethal damage. The feat itself doesn't say that it doesn't apply to nonlethal damage, and the precedent from examples shows that this works.

Also, there was an official answer on a now-removed WotC page that clarified on how regeneration interacts with immunity to nonlethal damage. That ruling was that if a creature has both, the regeneration is no longer able to convert the damage they take into nonlethal damage so all damage received overcomes their regeneration.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-07, 01:45 PM

Take a look at the Frenzied Berserker. It takes nonlethal damage every round during a frenzy, but it doesn't die when it's at negative hp. It also gets Diehard as a bonus feat. The nonlethal damage it takes for being in a frenzy would cause it to fall unconscious as soon as it hits negative hp, immediately ending the frenzy and allowing it to die, making it not function at all. However, that's not the case, and Diehard is the only thing mechanically that would enable it to work. Thus we can only conclude that Diehard applies to both regular damage and nonlethal damage. The feat itself doesn't say that it doesn't apply to nonlethal damage, and the precedent from examples shows that this works.

That a class doesn't work the way it was meant to with RAW doesn't imply that the rules do something they don't say they do.

Benefit
When reduced to between –1 and –9 hit points, you automatically become stable. You don’t have to roll d% to see if you lose 1 hit point each round.

When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If you reach –10 hit points, you immediately die.

OK, so Diehard makes us stable between -1 and -9, and we presumably still die at -10. At negative hitpoints, we act as if we were disabled rather than dying, so we are conscious. This allows us to make a move or a standard action, although the standard and free actions cannot be "strenuous" as determined by your DM, lest you take one point of damage.

None of that references nonlethal damage. Let's check nonlethal damage to see if it reduces us to negative hp.

Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. When you take nonlethal damage, keep a running total of how much you’ve accumulated. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current hit points. It is not “real” damage. Instead, when your nonlethal damage equals your current hit points, you’re staggered, and when it exceeds your current hit points, you fall unconscious. It doesn’t matter whether the nonlethal damage equals or exceeds your current hit points because the nonlethal damage has gone up or because your current hit points have gone down.

So nonlethal damage explicitly does not deduct from your current hitpoints, so cannot reduce our current hitpoints to negative, but makes you unconscious when it exceeds your current hp. It never makes us dying, so diehard doesn't allow us to act as disabled instead, either, even if our current hp is negative. Technically, I suppose your nonlethal damage value is NAN rather than 0 if you haven't taken at least 1, so diehard still works as long as you have taken no nonlethal damage.

The Frenzied Berserker Class, as you said, seems nonfunctional unless you get some form of immunity to nonlethal damage. That doesn't mean that diehard naturally allows folks to ignore the rules for nonlethal damage, however; it just means that an immunity is required for Deathless Frenzy to be worth anything. Notably, the Frenzied Berserker would retain the benefit of diehard when not using Frenzy.

Also, there was an official answer on a now-removed WotC page that clarified on how regeneration interacts with immunity to nonlethal damage. That ruling was that if a creature has both, the regeneration is no longer able to convert the damage they take into nonlethal damage so all damage received overcomes their regeneration.

Is there a source on that? As I recall, the only thing precluding other sources of immunity to nonlethal damage (undead, construct, etc) from meshing with Troll Blooded is that you have to have a con score to have regeneration, which is why something like Half-Undead (Gheden) that leaves your con score intact is required. Maybe you're thinking of that? Or maybe the page clarified that things like undead or constructs no longer convert the damage into nonlethal because they don't have a con score?

Maat Mons

2020-07-07, 04:08 PM

I think someone with Deformity (Madness) could pet puppies without ceasing to be a horrible monster. The fun part of being criminally insane is that anyone familiar with you is terrified no matter how nice you're being at the moment, because they know from experience that you can flip to murder-mode at any time, for reasons that only make sense only to you.

Is it okay to make the 1st-level contestants Necropolitans? It's LA +0, but they'd have to have been level 3 at some point in the past.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-07, 04:22 PM

I'd think they'd be OK as level 3s, but not level 1s, as they'd have used WBL greater than what a level 1 should have

ExLibrisMortis

2020-07-07, 05:15 PM

For what it's worth, you can get Diehard, Deformity (Madness) and Troll-blooded on a first-level fighter, if you're willing to use Dragon #310 variant fighters. Bodyguard, commander, corsair, knight, pugilist, shield bearer, and survivalist all get Toughness as a fighter bonus feat. Pugilist also gets Endurance for free at level 1, which helps meet the Diehard prerequisite, but you can just as easily use Shape Soulmeld (bloodtalons) or Shape Soulmeld (rageclaws), letting you keep your martial weapon proficiencies.

Edit: On the subject of Diehard: It's kind of annoying that the feat doesn't reference specific conditions. It would really improve the feat if it did.

I think it's best to read the feat as follows:

When Unconscious, you may act as if Disabled.

Because that's pretty much what the feat does, it's just laid out badly and doesn't refer to the conditions summary. Note that "Unconscious", in D&D, strictly refers to being knocked out.

Another way to read it is as follows:

When Dying or Stable, you may act as if Disabled.

This is a more specific reading that doesn't allow you to negate unconsciousness due to nonlethal damage. I prefer the first reading.

Calthropstu

2020-07-07, 05:16 PM

Doctor Despair

2020-07-07, 05:27 PM

Ummm. Why are we assuming the fighter has a -10 initiative? The fighter can also take improved initiative. Also, a dc 15 will save is not 75%. DC 16 is 75%. 15 is 70%. Also also, feats can also be grabbed that lessen this. Also also also, the fighter can, instead, take a reach/melee weapon that forces concentration checks to cast defensively. Also Also Also Also, you guys are pretty much building this fighter with the absolute worst possible options against this. So yeah, this excersize is kinda crap.

I'm not sure why folks don't want him to have a reach weapon, to be honest.

At level 1, a human fighter could take Improved Initiative, EWP: Spiked Chain, and Combat Reflexes. If they go first, they attack, hit X% of the time (killing the wizard Y% of the time), and pass initiative.

The wizard then presumably, noticing the fighter has a reach weapon, decides to:

Cast defensively (failing A% of the time, triggering an attack that hits B% of the time, and going down C% of the time)to Color Spray hit face, which the figher make's his save for D% of the time

Move out of the fighter's reach, triggering an attack of opportunity that is presumably a trip attempt that hits E% of the time and trips him F% of the time, and then has to cast defensively from the ground, following the above situation.

Either way, if the fighter goes first, things look pretty good for him with a reach weapon. However, if the wizard goes first, the fighter doesn't get any attacks of opportunity, so you'd presumably want to cheese some way into an immunity to mind-affecting, or take troll-blooded and pump your AC to tank through the color sprays.

Edit: Didn't see you gamed out the reach weapon in your edit. On that note: there's a feat that lets you get attacks of opportunities when you're flat footed? Not sure how I missed that. What is it?

Edit2: I suppose technically we could do the Guissarme + Spiked Gauntlet/Armor Spikes trick to get a 10-foot threaten radius without Exotic Weapon Proficiency. We don't have enough gold for an enhancement bonus, so it won't matter too much that it's not one weapon.

JeminiZero

2020-07-07, 05:27 PM

1. Why is this metagamey? That answer right there. I’m going to try to use feats that have crippling disadvantages to make them NPC only then ignore the disadvantage.
No, that's just min-maxing. I can give examples of builds that take something with disadvantages and then do what they can to ignore it. Hellfire Warlocks which circumvent Con damage, Celerity casters which circumvent Daze. Wizards who store spellbooks in their heads via Eidetic Spellcaster. Acorn of Far Travel shenanigans.

2. Why is it nonfunctional in a vast majority of games? Because if you take feats that are described as supernatural gifts from the foulest of entities and then do not perform appropriately, probably the nicest thing a reasonable DM would do is remove the benefits until you have Atoned for your puppy petting. So you are still a deformed (that’s permanent) insane (can’t see why you would lose that) freakish monster. You just aren’t immune to mind affecting until you get right with Hell. Being an insane fighter, lacking know arcana, planes or religion at a meaningful level, you probably don’t even know how screwed you are until you eat a color spray and show up at your bosses’ pad for a custom hellraiser experience complete with skin removal.
You can be evil without being "lol burn everything" evil. Just look at Tarquin. Heck, even chaotic evil Belkar gets along with some animals. The food you're giving the puppy? Preserved jerky of some sentient being you killed out in the wild.

I think someone with Deformity (Madness) could pet puppies without ceasing to be a horrible monster. The fun part of being criminally insane is that anyone familiar with you is terrified no matter how nice you're being at the moment, because they know from experience that you can flip to murder-mode at any time, for reasons that only make sense only to you.
Yes exactly.

ExLibrisMortis

2020-07-07, 06:01 PM

I'm not sure why folks don't want him to have a reach weapon, to be honest.

At level 1, a human fighter could take Improved Initiative, EWP: Spiked Chain, and Combat Reflexes. If they go first, they attack, hit X% of the time (killing the wizard Y% of the time), and pass initiative.
If you're not immune to colour spray, there's a good chance the wizard will kill you before you get to act.

Let's start with the same stat array: 18/14/14/12/8/8 (32 point-buy).
Both have 14 Dexterity, 14 Constutition, 12 Wisdom, and 8 Charisma. The wizard has 8 Strength and 18 Intelligence, the fighter has the reverse.
The fighter can take hit-and-run fighter for +2 Initiative. The wizard can dump Wisdom to get +2 Dexterity for +1 Initiative and +1 AC.
They have the same number of feats, so let's say that neither or both have Improved Initiative.

Result: The wizard is going to have +4 or +5 extra Initiative. Let's go with +4.

The wizard has a 70% chance to act first. Note that the wizard wins ties due to their higher bonus.
The fighter has a 35% chance of making their Will save against colour spray.
Abrupt Jaunt avoids the Combat Reflexes AoO.
The wizard has a move action remaining to take cover, depending on the specific map.

Result: There's a 45.5% chance the wizard wins before the fighter acts.

The picture is similar with power word: pain, except that there is no save, and the wizard merely needs to stretch the fight for a round or five. With Diehard and Troll-Blooded, that is quite easy.
Of course, the fighter could dump Wisdom on the assumption that Initiative will help more. That reduces your chances of winning against colour spray (49.50% chance for a wizard win before you act), but you might do better against power word: pain.

Unless you can secure a 100% victory after round 1--and I doubt you can, because the wizard can Abrupt Jaunt again--you need to be able to counter these spells to secure a win rate over 50%.

Edit: The feat is Combat Reflexes.

Edit2: Moved to its own post.

Calthropstu

2020-07-07, 07:07 PM

I'm not sure why folks don't want him to have a reach weapon, to be honest.

At level 1, a human fighter could take Improved Initiative, EWP: Spiked Chain, and Combat Reflexes. If they go first, they attack, hit X% of the time (killing the wizard Y% of the time), and pass initiative.

The wizard then presumably, noticing the fighter has a reach weapon, decides to:

Cast defensively (failing A% of the time, triggering an attack that hits B% of the time, and going down C% of the time)to Color Spray hit face, which the figher make's his save for D% of the time

Move out of the fighter's reach, triggering an attack of opportunity that is presumably a trip attempt that hits E% of the time and trips him F% of the time, and then has to cast defensively from the ground, following the above situation.

Either way, if the fighter goes first, things look pretty good for him with a reach weapon. However, if the wizard goes first, the fighter doesn't get any attacks of opportunity, so you'd presumably want to cheese some way into an immunity to mind-affecting, or take troll-blooded and pump your AC to tank through the color sprays.

Edit: Didn't see you gamed out the reach weapon in your edit. On that note: there's a feat that lets you get attacks of opportunities when you're flat footed? Not sure how I missed that. What is it?

Edit2: I suppose technically we could do the Guissarme + Spiked Gauntlet/Armor Spikes trick to get a 10-foot threaten radius without Exotic Weapon Proficiency. We don't have enough gold for an enhancement bonus, so it won't matter too much that it's not one weapon.

Combat Reflexes [General]
Benefit

You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.

With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Combat reflexes.

ExLibrisMortis

2020-07-07, 07:16 PM

A further refinement of the colour spray strategy:

Grey elf wizard 1 can have 6/20/6/20/8/8 stats with a hummingbird familiar, Improved Initiative, Aggressive, two flaws, Shape Soulmeld (bluesteel bracers), Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence. +22 Initiative and DC 20 Will save. Combat routine is cast nerveskitter > win initiative > 5' step > cast blockade > cast colour spray. Blockade provides cover without blocking line of sight, so you don't get an AoO to the face. That'll get you ~83% chance to win on round one, no problem (as long as you don't have to get an actual kill to win--if you do, use Greater Spell Focus for a DC 18 Will save).

(I edited this into my previous post, but it was getting confusing.)

Doctor Despair

2020-07-07, 07:16 PM

Combat reflexes.

I somehow have missed the second half of that feat for years.

Calthropstu

2020-07-07, 07:21 PM

If you're not immune to colour spray, there's a good chance the wizard will kill you before you get to act.

Let's start with the same stat array: 18/14/14/12/8/8 (32 point-buy).
Both have 14 Dexterity, 14 Constutition, 12 Wisdom, and 8 Charisma. The wizard has 8 Strength and 18 Intelligence, the fighter has the reverse.
The fighter can take hit-and-run fighter for +2 Initiative. The wizard can dump Wisdom to get +2 Dexterity for +1 Initiative and +1 AC.
They have the same number of feats, so let's say that neither or both have Improved Initiative.

Result: The wizard is going to have +4 or +5 extra Initiative. Let's go with +4.

The wizard has a 70% chance to act first. Note that the wizard wins ties due to their higher bonus.
The fighter has a 35% chance of making their Will save against colour spray.
Abrupt Jaunt avoids the Combat Reflexes AoO.
The wizard has a move action remaining to take cover, depending on the specific map.

Result: There's a 45.5% chance the wizard wins before the fighter acts.

The picture is similar with power word: pain, except that there is no save, and the wizard merely needs to stretch the fight for a round or five. With Diehard and Troll-Blooded, that is quite easy.
Of course, the fighter could dump Wisdom on the assumption that Initiative will help more. That reduces your chances of winning against colour spray (49.50% chance for a wizard win before you act), but you might do better against power word: pain.

Unless you can secure a 100% victory after round 1--and I doubt you can, because the wizard can Abrupt Jaunt again--you need to be able to counter these spells to secure a win rate over 50%.

Edit: The feat is Combat Reflexes.

Edit2: A grey elf wizard 1 can have 20 Dexterity and Intelligence with a hummingbird familiar, Improved Initiative, Spell Focus, and Greater Spell Focus. +22 Initiative and DC 18 Will save. Combat routine is 5' step > cast blockade > cast colour spray. Blockade provides cover, preventing an AoO, but doesn't block line of sight, allowing colour spray to go through. That'll get you ~75% chance to win on round one, no problem.

You might want to read the fine print here. It is "as dimension door" which means you can't do anything after using it. You cast, the aoo goes off, you teleport and then auto lose the spell. Way to automatically lose the fight.
edit: that was in conjunction with abrupt jaunt.

ExLibrisMortis

2020-07-07, 07:29 PM

You might want to read the fine print here. It is "as dimension door" which means you can't do anything after using it. You cast, the aoo goes off, you teleport and then auto lose the spell. Way to automatically lose the fight.
Is that in the errata? I see this text:

Abrupt Jaunt (conjuration): You teleport up to 10 feet. You can’t bring along any other creatures.

Calthropstu

2020-07-07, 07:47 PM

Is that in the errata? I see this text:

Huh. My mistake... I could have sworn it redirected to DD.

With these, the wizard wins every single time he survives to not being flat footed.

ExLibrisMortis

2020-07-07, 08:55 PM

With these, the wizard wins every single time he survives to not being flat footed.
Yeah, it's a pretty crazy ability. I'm thinking the fighter might be better off going for ranged attacks. It's easier to have a good Dexterity score, and Abrupt Jaunt doesn't ruin your day. Thrown weapons can be used to AoO, as well. Hit-and-run targetteer fighter with Vital Aim gets Dex to damage (twice, against a flat-footed target) and has two exotic ranged weapon proficiencies. Maybe go with net and harpoon?

Calthropstu

2020-07-07, 11:04 PM

Yeah, it's a pretty crazy ability. I'm thinking the fighter might be better off going for ranged attacks. It's easier to have a good Dexterity score, and Abrupt Jaunt doesn't ruin your day. Thrown weapons can be used to AoO, as well. Hit-and-run targetteer fighter with Vital Aim gets Dex to damage (twice, against a flat-footed target) and has two exotic ranged weapon proficiencies. Maybe go with net and harpoon?

Hmmmm. You know. The teleport itself, raw, could trigger a concentration check. Not sure of dc but it would definitely fall under circumstances during casting that would do so. I'm 5 feet away from him and start casting and suddenly I'm now 10 feet further away? Mid cast? That's definitely a trigger.

But blockade just wins it. No AOO means auto spell getting off, which turns our approaching 60/40 going into the fighters favor into a major win for the wizard. Hmmm.

If we make ourselves blind and take blind-fight, and be an elf to be immune to sleep, what does that do to the numbers? The wizard switches to power word pain probably, but we can take a couple rounds. The odds of it being a draw increase dramatically it looks like.

tyckspoon

2020-07-07, 11:23 PM

If we make ourselves blind and take blind-fight, and be an elf to be immune to sleep, what does that do to the numbers? The wizard switches to power word pain probably, but we can take a couple rounds. The odds of it being a draw increase dramatically it looks like.

Being blind forces you to move at half speed (Blind Fight partially alleviates this, making it only 3/4 instead) and removes your ability to make Attacks of Opportunity (you can't AoO against something that has total concealment from you), as well as meaning you now need to make Listen checks to try to locate your opponent if they're not being obviously noisy. While it provides a defense against Color Spray, it means 'Power Word Pain, move away, make Move Silently checks' is a lot easier - you risk losing rounds not knowing where your opponent even is, and if you manage to track them down you don't have the threat of an AoO to limit their options.

rel

2020-07-08, 01:51 AM

I'm going to answer this in terms of what I see at the table.

Let's start with level 1

My wizard is probably human, I like playing humans and grey elf seems a bit cheesy. I max int, and put con and dex as my second and 3rd stats (+4, +2, +1 seems reasonable). I'm not giving up scribe scroll in a normal game but I'm probably dropping the familiar, too much of a risk of the GM killing it. So I'll spec into conjuration and trade the familiar for immediate magic (abrupt jaunt). I max concentration and my other skills don't really matter. My feats are probably tied up qualifying for a PRC.
In terms of spells, I'm definitely holding 2 castings of colourspray and a grease in my specialisation slot. No room for nerveskitter at level 1

Fighter is a little trickier for me, it was recently pointed out that my definition of 'fighter' is a nearly full caster with 1 or 2 levels of the fighter class who happens to have a high BAB and hits things in melee. Regardless, I'll have a go.

My fighter is also human, see above and I'll probably go into the spiked chain build to use all the bonus feats.
As such I want int 13 so I won't max strength that leaves my con and dex a little higher. +3, +2, +2 and probably a -1 in wis, oh well.
My skills are irrelevant, my feats either go into EWP, expertise, imp trip or maybe combat reflexes with the unchosen feat coming in next level. Let's be nice to poor fighter and go with reflexes.

Fighter has a slight advantage on initiative (+2 vs +1)
hits the wizards AC of 11 on a 7+
And kills the wizard or brings them to 0 if they connect

If my maths is right that's a 0.57*0.7 = 0.4% chance of the fighter winning initiative and killing the wizard in the first round.

if wizard wins initiative they can abrupt jaunt out of range and unleash a colourspray that the fighter saves against on a 16+ (DC15 with a -1 bonus)

that would be 0.43 * 0.75 = 0.32% chance of wizard winning initiative and taking down fighter.

beyond that initial exchange things become more complicated so I'm going to hold off any further analysis however, if we remove the wizards immediate magic (abrupt jaunt) ACF the wizards win chance includes a concentration check which requires a 9 to pass (DC15 +6 bonus)
wizards chance to win 0.43 * 0.6 * 0.75 = 0.19

If the fighter is wielding a greatsword instead of a spiked chain the wizard can step back and no longer needs abrupt jaunt and the initial chance applies regardless.

looks very much down to luck for characters I see in play at level 1

ExLibrisMortis

2020-07-08, 04:08 AM

Hmmmm. You know. The teleport itself, raw, could trigger a concentration check. Not sure of dc but it would definitely fall under circumstances during casting that would do so. I'm 5 feet away from him and start casting and suddenly I'm now 10 feet further away? Mid cast? That's definitely a trigger.
I was assuming you'd use Abrupt Jaunt before even starting the cast. In this case, it's not avoiding the AoO by interrupting it, it's just a 10' move that gets you out of reach. If it's a fighter with an awlpike and gauntlet, you can just take a 5' step and land in that 10' sweet zone where you're safe.

Blind-Fight doesn't do enough, as tyckspoon laid out, but resisting power word: pain is possible. The easiest way to do it is with pugilist fighter. Apart from their infamous Shake it Off ability, they have the more reasonable Iron Jaw, which gives DR-against-nonlethal equal to Constitution modifier. For a pretty basic arctic human fighter with 14+2 Constitution, that cuts the damage from PWP to about 1 per round. Still, this costs you a fighter feat, and immunity to mind-affecting takes just two feats, so I think the immunity is going to be a better deal.

Twurps

2020-07-08, 04:14 AM

Toughness is required for Troll Blooded. Willing Deformity is required for Deformity: Madness. Endurance is required for Diehard. A Human Fighter 1 with two flaws gets five feats, he can't get all of that, there's an opportunity cost. Whichever set he doesn't get, the Wizard uses to beat him. Meanwhile the Wizard only needs to spend four feats on Troll Blooded and Diehard.

If we make ourselves blind and take blind-fight, and be an elf to be immune to sleep, what does that do to the numbers? The wizard switches to power word pain probably, but we can take a couple rounds. The odds of it being a draw increase dramatically it looks like.
(emphasis mine)

Are we doing 'schrodingers wizards' again? How is it the wizard gets to be prepared for any changes in build the fighter has? (And we don't call that metagamy).

A further refinement of the colour spray strategy:

Grey elf wizard 1 can have 6/20/6/20/8/8 stats with a hummingbird familiar, Improved Initiative, Aggressive, two flaws, Shape Soulmeld (bluesteel bracers), Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence. +22 Initiative and DC 20 Will save. Combat routine is cast nerveskitter > win initiative > 5' step > cast blockade > cast colour spray. Blockade provides cover without blocking line of sight, so you don't get an AoO to the face. That'll get you ~83% chance to win on round one, no problem (as long as you don't have to get an actual kill to win--if you do, use Greater Spell Focus for a DC 18 Will save).

But they also have Diehard (at least the Wizard does), which means they don't go unconscious at all.

I have seen a lot of PO and TO wizard build pass by on this forum. I can't remember a single one of them having 'die Hard', 'troll blooded', Shape soulmeld and/or particularly sacred vow.
Meanwhile: any fighter suggestions sound pretty close to any advice in other threads. Reach weapon - combat reflexes combo is pretty common, as is getting troll blooded. Even willing deformity I've seen come by (much) more often than a wizard taking diehard.

ExLibrisMortis

2020-07-08, 04:36 AM

(emphasis mine)

Are we doing 'schrodingers wizards' again? How is it the wizard gets to be prepared for any changes in build the fighter has? (And we don't call that metagamy).

I have seen a lot of PO and TO wizard build pass by on this forum. I can't remember a single one of them having 'die Hard', 'troll blooded', Shape soulmeld and/or particularly sacred vow.
Meanwhile: any fighter suggestions sound pretty close to any advice in other threads. Reach weapon - combat reflexes combo is pretty common, as is getting troll blooded. Even willing deformity I've seen come by (much) more often than a wizard taking diehard.
I think it's more about exploring how the metagame would develop if these 1v1s were commonplace. It's not meant to imply that these fighters and wizards are typical. Although Abrupt Jaunt, martial wizard for Improved Initiative, and hummingbird familiars are all typical optimization tricks, and nerveskitter, power word: pain and colour spray are standard first-level spell picks (for a wizard who attacks things, less so for a buffer/summoner of course). Shape Soulmeld is a common feat for any character, because there are a zillion things you can get with that feat. Diehard/Troll-blooded and Sacred Vow are unusual picks, I'll grant you that :smalltongue:. I did consider going full Vow of Poverty/Vow of Peace, but that's just a big pain with spellbooks and the like.

I'm not sure talking about "typical" fighters is that interesting, anyway. I mean, if we were talking about "typical" first-level fighters and wizards, we'd also have to talk about fighters who have Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush* and maybe +2 Initiative/+1 Will, which is such a bad build for duels that it stops being fun.

That the duel-a-wizard fighter resembles a lockdown fighter just shows that the fighter has one particular good trick to use against wizards.

*Other highlights of "typical" level 1 fighters:
Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge -- standard mounted charger
Two-Weapon Fighting, Dodge, Weapon Focus (longsword) -- Jack B. Quick

Quertus

2020-07-08, 09:49 AM

So, dumb question: what doesn't Kauper's Skittish Nerves / Nerveskitter provoke an attack of opportunity (AoO)?

Doctor Despair

2020-07-08, 10:21 AM

So, dumb question: what doesn't Kauper's Skittish Nerves / Nerveskitter provoke an attack of opportunity (AoO)?

With Combat Reflexes, it should, I think. However, without combat reflexes, the fighter would be flat-footed until initiative had finished rolling, so he'd be unable to take the AOO.

Aharon

2020-07-08, 10:50 AM

So, dumb question: what doesn't Kauper's Skittish Nerves / Nerveskitter provoke an attack of opportunity (AoO)?

Spells with a casting time of 1 immediate action don't provoke Attacks of Opportunity

Calthropstu

2020-07-08, 11:00 AM

wait, nerveskitter is an immediate action. You can't use it and another swift action on your turn. Casting nerveskitter kills the teleport and the blockade. Also, it uses up one of the first level wizards 3 spells.

We're back in business. Either the wizard goes into combat without nerveskitter, thus forgoing his +5 initiative bonus, greatly increasing the chance that fighter goes first, or forgoes the ability to prevent AOOs on the first round. Also, nothing seems to say an immediate action spell is not subject to AOO, so the nerveskitter itself is subject to an attack from the fighter.

This pretty much changes the entire dynamic back into the fighter's favor.

Calthropstu

2020-07-08, 11:05 AM

Spells with a casting time of 1 immediate action don't provoke Attacks of Opportunity

Where does it say this? I just looked at the srd and could not find it. Quicken spell specifically states it doesn't provoke, but immediate action does not have this text, nor does it specifically inherit from swift action which does.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-08, 12:07 PM

Where does it say this? I just looked at the srd and could not find it. Quicken spell specifically states it doesn't provoke, but immediate action does not have this text, nor does it specifically inherit from swift action which does.

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting or the activation of magic items; many characters (especially those who don't cast spells) never have an opportunity to take a swift action.

Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. In addition, casting any spell with a casting time of 1 swift action is a swift action.

Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

So... oddly enough, it seems like an immediate-action spell cast during your turn would not provoke an attack of opportunity, as it would count as a swift action, but an immediate action taken outside of your turn would provoke an attack of opportunity, as it is only much like a swift action (but not the same as a swift action). Nerveskitter would provoke an attack of opportunity, as it is cast outside of your turn in initiative (as initiative doesn't exist yet).

Calthropstu

2020-07-08, 12:41 PM

A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. However, you can perform only a single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action any time you would normally be allowed to take a free action. Swift actions usually involve spellcasting or the activation of magic items; many characters (especially those who don't cast spells) never have an opportunity to take a swift action.

Casting a quickened spell is a swift action. In addition, casting any spell with a casting time of 1 swift action is a swift action.

Casting a spell with a casting time of 1 swift action does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Much like a swift action, an immediate action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time — even if it's not your turn. Casting feather fall is an immediate action, since the spell can be cast at any time.

Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action, and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn). You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

So... oddly enough, it seems like an immediate-action spell cast during your turn would not provoke an attack of opportunity, as it would count as a swift action, but an immediate action taken outside of your turn would provoke an attack of opportunity, as it is only much like a swift action (but not the same as a swift action). Nerveskitter would provoke an attack of opportunity, as it is cast outside of your turn in initiative (as initiative doesn't exist yet).

Yes, that is how I read it as well. So nerveskitter opens up an aoo instant death outside of the actual combat. Which leads to only a 1 point bonus on init assuming it's not used.

Ok, let's assume that our opponent does NOT know our build, but knows we cannot get immunity to sleep, power word pain AND color spray, but we can get 2 out of the 3, how does that change the formula? We HAVE to take combat reflexes, that is absolute.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-08, 12:55 PM

Yes, that is how I read it as well. So nerveskitter opens up an aoo instant death outside of the actual combat. Which leads to only a 1 point bonus on init assuming it's not used.

Ok, let's assume that our opponent does NOT know our build, but knows we cannot get immunity to sleep, power word pain AND color spray, but we can get 2 out of the 3, how does that change the formula? We HAVE to take combat reflexes, that is absolute.

Did we resolve whether or not the Abrupt Jaunt allows for an attack of opportunity? Certainly it would let it avoid a melee attack of opportunity, but would it trigger an attack of opportunity on its own? They don't get a Hummingbird Familiar if they take it, but we need to establish whether it just ends the encounter against a melee opponent if they have it.

If not, the wizard can five-foot step, then abrupt jaunt out of range of our reach weapon, then has one standard action left to cast a spell.

Also: while Abrupt Jaunt would let the wizard move out of range of a melee attack of opportunity made against them, does it let them "dodge" a ranged attack, as it happens before the attack of opportunity has been made?

tyckspoon

2020-07-08, 01:09 PM

Also: while Abrupt Jaunt would let the wizard move out of range of a melee attack of opportunity made against them, does it let them "dodge" a ranged attack, as it happens before the attack of opportunity has been made?

This is an open question that I do not believe can be conclusively answered by the rules text. You can give an equally valid argument for yes or no, IMO.

Calthropstu

2020-07-08, 01:38 PM

Did we resolve whether or not the Abrupt Jaunt allows for an attack of opportunity? Certainly it would let it avoid a melee attack of opportunity, but would it trigger an attack of opportunity on its own? They don't get a Hummingbird Familiar if they take it, but we need to establish whether it just ends the encounter against a melee opponent if they have it.

If not, the wizard can five-foot step, then abrupt jaunt out of range of our reach weapon, then has one standard action left to cast a spell.

Also: while Abrupt Jaunt would let the wizard move out of range of a melee attack of opportunity made against them, does it let them "dodge" a ranged attack, as it happens before the attack of opportunity has been made?

See above the text for immediate actions. Done on your turn, it does not provoke as it follows the rules for swift actions. Outside of your turn is where the problem lies. However, I present a separate circumstance: A readied action. A readied action would interrupt the teleport to try and get away. And you can't immediate action because you've already activated your swift.

Aharon

2020-07-09, 03:40 AM

See above the text for immediate actions. Done on your turn, it does not provoke as it follows the rules for swift actions. Outside of your turn is where the problem lies. However, I present a separate circumstance: A readied action. A readied action would interrupt the teleport to try and get away. And you can't immediate action because you've already activated your swift.

The rules compendium states that Immediate Action "Cast Spell (1 immediate action casting time)" doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. It doesn't explicitly say whether immediate spell-like abilities trigger AoOs, but since quickened spell-like abilities don't, it's reasonable IMO to assume that immediate spell-like abilities don't, either.

emeraldstreak

2020-07-09, 05:59 AM

Also: while Abrupt Jaunt would let the wizard move out of range of a melee attack of opportunity made against them, does it let them "dodge" a ranged attack, as it happens before the attack of opportunity has been made?

Attacks in DnD target things, not coordinates. Movement interrupts obliviate attacks when they move the target out of reach/range, or break Line of Effect.

Quertus

2020-07-09, 09:45 AM

So, as of Rules Compendium, Nerveskitter does *not* provoke an AoO?

Calthropstu

2020-07-09, 10:29 AM

So, as of Rules Compendium, Nerveskitter does *not* provoke an AoO?

Looks like.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-09, 03:43 PM

Looks like.

So a conjuration wizard pretty much wins against a melee build, regardless of if you use reach or not, as they can avoid any AOO. Otherwise, a reach weapon + spiked gauntlet and combat reflexes means the hypothetical fighter will get at least one AOO off, and cause the concentration check to lose the spell, provided the wizard doesn't take the conjuration specialty, which makes it somewhat necessary into a blind matchup; with that being the case, this hypothetical conjuration wizard will beat a melee matchup more often than not. However, a conjuration wizard doesn't get their hummingbird, so I suppose the fighter that doesn't specialize in reach/AOOs has that going for them in the initiative battle.

A further refinement of the colour spray strategy:

Grey elf wizard 1 can have 6/20/6/20/8/8 stats with a hummingbird familiar, Improved Initiative, Aggressive, two flaws, Shape Soulmeld (bluesteel bracers), Sacred Vow, Vow of Nonviolence. +22 Initiative and DC 20 Will save. Combat routine is cast nerveskitter > win initiative > 5' step > cast blockade > cast colour spray. Blockade provides cover without blocking line of sight, so you don't get an AoO to the face. That'll get you ~83% chance to win on round one, no problem (as long as you don't have to get an actual kill to win--if you do, use Greater Spell Focus for a DC 18 Will save).

The fighter has an extra feat, so they should be able to benefit from any of the feats the wizard takes, and still have one to spare. If the fighter wields a ranged weapon, they get to use dex as their primary stat, while the wizard presumably (although not necessarily) will be using intelligence. If the wizard is a gray elf, the fighter gets an additional +2 initiative feat, but let's be generous and say it's a human wizard. This leaves us with a +2 advantage to the fighter, providing it is a human wizard with an 18 in dex versus a human fighter with an 18 in dex. Then, we apply Nerveskitter, resulting in that +3 advantage to the wizard with no easy way to circumvent it. If the wizard has at least a 12 in dex, Nerveskitter would even them out.

At level 1, the wizard has 2.5 + con hp, or 5.5 + con if they take toughness (instead of an initiative feat), or 8.5 + con if they take toughness twice as a human. Troll-Blooded doesn't help the wizard here, because if the wizard goes down, the fighter can presumably do at least 1 damage per round to keep it unconscious. The heavy crossbow will do 1d10+4, so without a positive con score and/or toughness feats, the wizard should go down on a successful hit. There may be a more effective ranged weapon, but that seems fine.

Nerveskitter is just such a strong spell choice. Advantage seems to go to the conjuration wizard at level 1 due to that +3 gap in initiative. Without the conjuration specialty, the fighter can use a reach weapon and AOOs to have a pretty decent chance at preventing spellcasting, giving the advantage to the fighter, even though the hummingbird wizard gets a +9 to initiative (+4 for the familiar, +2 for the fighter having to forgo an initiative feat in favor of combat reflexes). In fact, the fighter may as well tank dexterity, giving a bigger advantage to initiative.

Maat Mons

2020-07-09, 04:55 PM

If a conjurer takes Abrupt Jaunt, thus losing his familiar, and then takes the Obtain Familiar feat to get it back, can he still select a hummingbird as his familiar?

Doctor Despair

2020-07-09, 05:19 PM

If a conjurer takes Abrupt Jaunt, thus losing his familiar, and then takes the Obtain Familiar feat to get it back, can he still select a hummingbird as his familiar?

I'd think so, but that requires caster level 3. Maybe there's a feat to pump caster level by two, but that would mean not taking another initiative feat, which would average out to +2 initiative per feat, which is do-able without the familiar, and so doesn't really change the math

edited for clarity

Quertus

2020-07-09, 10:00 PM

Next dumb question: when do immediate actions reset? Can the Wizard abrupt jaunt in round 1 if they have used Nerveskitter?

Maat Mons

2020-07-09, 10:08 PM

I believe that swift/immediate actions effectively "reset" at end of turn.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2020-07-09, 10:57 PM

rel

2020-07-10, 02:59 AM

So I expanded on my initial thought experiment and built a spreadsheet to do some statistical analysis.
I left abrupt jaunt aside for now (since it requires some rules adjudication) and assumed that the wizard has 2 copies of colourspray, goes down in 1 hit and auto-loses if both spells fail to connect. wizard and fighter can both manage to drop their attacks reliably (e.g. no fighter running around with eyes closed).

All that said, the interesting variables become initiatives, save DC, will save, wizard AC, fighter to hit, whether concentration is required (reach + combat ref) and concentration bonus.

Here are a few sample scenarios:
(generic wizard vs fighter, fast wizard vs fighter, fast wiz vs spiked chain fighter, fast wiz vs good will save fighter, fast fighter vs generic wiz)

Fighter Init
Wizard Init
Wizard DC
Fighter Will Save
Fighter to hit
wizard AC
concentration
fighter win chance
wizard win chance

+2
+1
15
-1
+4
11
Not required
52%
48%

[/tr]

+2
+6
15
-1
+4
12
Not required
34%
66%

+2
+6
15
-1
+4
12
+6
60%
40%

+2
+6
15
+4
+4
12
not required
52%
47%

[/tr]

+6
+1
15
-1
+4
11
Not required
61%
39%

So yeah, interesting. Anyone want a particular scenario checked?

emeraldstreak

2020-07-10, 04:10 AM

Aharon

2020-07-10, 04:22 AM

An Immediate Action used outside of your own turn take up your next turn's Swift Action.
An Immediate Action taken on your own turn takes up that turn's Swift Action.

So Nerveskitter to get an initiative bonus means you don't get a swift or immediate action on your first turn. If on your first turn you ready an action to cast your spell as soon as the Fighter attacks you, you get to Abrupt Jaunt out of range of his attack and also cast your spell from out of his reach. You're still acting immediately before the Fighter in initiative order.

Can you disrupt your readied action with an immediate action?

Text from the SRD:

The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character.

This implies, at least to me, that nothing can happen between the readied action and the triggering action.

Ready Actions are declared. The Fighter need not trigger its condition. The Fighter could, instead, deploy marbles in the square of the Wizard, making him flat-footed. Flat-footed creatures cannot use immediate actions. Remember, the Fighter still has the Wizard in reach of Combat Reflexes.

They are declared to the DM - your opponents don't get to know what you readied.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-10, 06:26 AM

An Immediate Action used outside of your own turn take up your next turn's Swift Action.
An Immediate Action taken on your own turn takes up that turn's Swift Action.

So Nerveskitter to get an initiative bonus means you don't get a swift or immediate action on your first turn. If on your first turn you ready an action to cast your spell as soon as the Fighter attacks you, you get to Abrupt Jaunt out of range of his attack and also cast your spell from out of his reach. You're still acting immediately before the Fighter in initiative order.

Does rolling for initiative consume a player immediate action for its turn, as it necessarily takes place outside of (and, in fact, before) initiative is determined?

I'm also not sure it's appropriate in this situation to account for readied actions, as they require a standard action to perform. If the fighter and wizard can ready an action, why doesn't the fighter just hit the wizard? Or the wizard cast a spell? Presumably because they are barred from taking actions until the fight starts -- which should include taking a standard action to ready an action.

Calthropstu

2020-07-10, 08:48 AM

Next dumb question: when do immediate actions reset? Can the Wizard abrupt jaunt in round 1 if they have used Nerveskitter?

If the wizard uses nerveskitter, he opens himself up to an aoo on the first round. Swift actions reset AFTER the turn. In other words, nerveskitter actually DECREASES odds rather than increases. In fact, nerveskitter almost GUARANTEES a loss.

Initiative: nerveskitter.
Round 1: Wizard can't teleport. attempts to cast. Gets attacked by aoo or 50% drops spell.
End of wizard round 1. Regains teleport.
Fighter round 1: Move action. Move to wizard. Readies action: attack when wizard attempts to use teleport ability. Sets up opportunity for AOO.
Nerveskitter opens up a massive opportunity for the fighter. Wizard is far better off without it.

Edit: Keep in mind that at this point the wizard has only 1 spell left. It's do or die time. He fails with his one remaining spell, it's dagger time.

Aharon

2020-07-10, 11:00 AM

Does rolling for initiative consume a player immediate action for its turn, as it necessarily takes place outside of (and, in fact, before) initiative is determined?

No, Rolling Initiative is an opposed ability check. Ability checks are treated similar to untrained skill checks. Skill checks often take actions, but some skill checks are instant and
represent reactions to an event. Rolling for initiative is one such check.

I'm also not sure it's appropriate in this situation to account for readied actions, as they require a standard action to perform. If the fighter and wizard can ready an action, why doesn't the fighter just hit the wizard? Or the wizard cast a spell? Presumably because they are barred from taking actions until the fight starts -- which should include taking a standard action to ready an action.
Readying an action might be advantageous to prevent the opponent from successfully performing their action - the one who goes first might choose to ready an action because of that.

If the wizard uses nerveskitter, he opens himself up to an aoo on the first round. Swift actions reset AFTER the turn. In other words, nerveskitter actually DECREASES odds rather than increases. In fact, nerveskitter almost GUARANTEES a loss.

Initiative: nerveskitter.
Round 1: Wizard can't teleport. attempts to cast. Gets attacked by aoo or 50% drops spell.
End of wizard round 1. Regains teleport.
Fighter round 1: Move action. Move to wizard. Readies action: attack when wizard attempts to use teleport ability. Sets up opportunity for AOO.
Nerveskitter opens up a massive opportunity for the fighter. Wizard is far better off without it.

Edit: Keep in mind that at this point the wizard has only 1 spell left. It's do or die time. He fails with his one remaining spell, it's dagger time.
Well, this is the question. Biffonacious assumes that the wizard can use their second round's immediate action in response to the fighter using an attack of opportunity in response to the wizard using his readied action to cast a spell in response to the fighter attacking.

el minster

2020-07-10, 11:20 AM

But what if the fighter was an archer with Dex+3 improved initiative, point blank shot, and rapid shot

Doctor Despair

2020-07-10, 12:06 PM

If the wizard uses nerveskitter, he opens himself up to an aoo on the first round. Swift actions reset AFTER the turn. In other words, nerveskitter actually DECREASES odds rather than increases. In fact, nerveskitter almost GUARANTEES a loss.

Initiative: nerveskitter.
Round 1: Wizard can't teleport. attempts to cast. Gets attacked by aoo or 50% drops spell.
End of wizard round 1. Regains teleport.
Fighter round 1: Move action. Move to wizard. Readies action: attack when wizard attempts to use teleport ability. Sets up opportunity for AOO.
Nerveskitter opens up a massive opportunity for the fighter. Wizard is far better off without it.

Edit: Keep in mind that at this point the wizard has only 1 spell left. It's do or die time. He fails with his one remaining spell, it's dagger time.

So as long as the fighter has a reach weapon and combat reflexes (or, arguably, so long as the wizard doesn't have access to divinations, and therefore doesn't know what type of fighter they will be engaging and whether they'll have reach), the wizard needs the Abrupt Jaunt. Therefore, we can probably conclude that the wizard will be a conjuration wizard, but will not be using Nerveskitter in the melee-reach matchup.

An initiative-based fighter will have a -3 initiative relative to the wizard (since the wizard can use Nerveskitter here), so advantage to the wizard. If the fighter wins, they shoot him with a heavy crossbow. If the wizard wins, they five-foot step away and cast color spray.

The reach fighter has to give up an initiative feat for Combat Reflexes, but the wizard loses Nerveskitter, so it's a net +3 to the fighter, making them equal in initiative. If the wizard and fighter both pumped dex, in the event of a tie, they'd have to roll again -- still no advantage in terms of initiative.

If the wizard wins initiative, they use Abrupt Jaunt (or five-foot step and blockade, same effect), which apparently doesn't provoke AOOs, putting them 15 feet away -- out of range, since we can't get reach or large size at this WBL, and the fighter needs a will save, and moves away (45 feet away, or 40 feet of movement to be adjacent). If the fighter survives, they double move to get closer (or charge, if there's no blockage) -- and the wizard abrupt jaunts again, out of range. The wizard casts a spell, so another will save, and they can move again... This repeats until the wizard has no more uses of Abrupt Jaunt and/or offensive spell X. Wizard probably wins if it goes first.

If the fighter wins initiative, the wizard will be flat-footed, so no Abrupt Jaunts. They're probably better off five-foot stepping away and just hitting the wizard. If the wizard maxed out dex, and has at least two uses of Abrupt Jaunt, they can't have much con, so 2.5 plus con doesn't add up to much in the face of a two-handed weapon attack. Fighter probably just wins here.

So that seems like 50/50, before accounting for the likelihood of breaking AC/killing the wizard vs the likelihood of surviving X amount of will saves. However, let's account for another hypothetical: a fighter with a guisarme but another initiative feat instead of combat reflexes. The wizard, without divinations, has no way of knowing whether the fighter has combat reflexes or not. The wizard still can't safely cast Nerveskitter, since the fighter might have combat reflexes, but the fighter benefits from the +2 initiative from the freed up feat slot. This gives an advantage to the fighter.

Lin

2020-07-10, 12:21 PM

Hello! I saw an interesting discussion, so I made an account to join in.

By RAW, I'm pretty sure that an ECL 1 fighter cannot win at level 1.

Let's assume that Fighter always wins initiative.
Let's also assume that Fighter has 32 starting STR and +4 from Rage, due to being a Proto-Creature Incarnate Construct Dustform Wild Shalarin (or Orc, if we rule that going Dustform and Incarnating back doesn't get rid of Shalarin's Aquatic subtype), for +0LA, +14 STR, +4 to saves vs. Mind-Affecting, and Rage (Ex).
Heck, we could even assume that Fe's using the Fighter ACF that grants EWP, so he's wielding a Longspear and has a Braid Blade in his hair, allowing him to threaten every square within 10ft of him, and allowing him to automatically hit and incapacitate Wizard with any successful attackÂ… because the fighter's power level is completely irrelevant.

Why? Because by RAW, being flat-footed is completely meaningless.

Let's look at what the Rules Compendium has to say pertaining to the Flat-Footed condition (emphasis mine) :

Flat-Footed: A creature that hasn't yet taken an action during combat is flat-footed, not yet able to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC and can't make attacks of opportunity.

[B]Immediate Action
An immediate action consumes a tiny amount of time. However, unlike a swift action, an immediate action can be performed at any time during a round, even when it isn't your turn. Using an immediate action on your turn counts as your swift action for that turn. If you use an immediate action when it isn't your turn, you can't use another immediate action or swift action until after your next turn. You can't use an immediate action when you're flat-footed.
Okay, so what this tells us is that:
You're flat-footed if you haven't taken any actions in combat, i.e. you stop being flat-footed when you've taken an action in combat.
You can't make AoOs or immediate actions while flat-footed.
Note that this does not prevent you from making any other kinds of actions, assuming you can make them when it isn't your turn.

At the moment, I can only think of one such action...speaking (again, emphasis mine) :

Free Action
Free actions consume a very small amount of time and effort. Their impact is so minor that they're considered free. You can perform one or more free actions during your turn. However, the DM can put reasonable limits on what you can really do for free.

25 [a footnote for the Free Action, "Speak"]
You can speak even when it isn't your turn. Long speeches aren't free actions.

So, being flat-footed does not stop you from taking free actions, but you normally cannot take free actions on someone else's turn. Speaking is an exception, however, because it explicitly states that you can speak even when it isn't your turn.
Therefore, even when you are flat-footed and it's someone else's turn, you can still speak as a free action. You would now have taken an action in combat, which cures you of the flat-footed condition. This enables you to use immediate actions or make AoOs even if you lose initiative.

Cheesy? Yes. RAW? Also yes.

So, assuming both are ECL 1 and Fighter wins initiative:
Wizard says "Oh s***!" as a free action. Wizard is no longer flat-footed.
Fighter uses a standard action to attack Wizard.
Wizard uses Abrupt Jaunt as an immediate action.
Fighter uses a move action to end his turn adjacent to the Wizard.

Sure, Fighter threatens deadly AoOs even if Wizard takes a 5-foot step, but there are a myriad of ways Wizard could go about dealing with this. For example:

If the campaign starts at 1st level and allows retraining, I like to start with Precocious Apprentice (Combust) + Fiery Burst. Fiery Burst is a reserve feat, which grant supernatural abilities and therefore do not provoke AoOs. So if Wizard is like me, he Fiery Bursts and runs. 2d6 fire damage (Reflex half)/round should be enough to take down a 1st-level fighter in 5 rounds (i.e. before you run out of Abrupt Jaunts).

Otherwise, he just readies an action to cast a spell after he uses Abrupt Jaunt. He'll be able to Abrupt Jaunt when Fighter takes his standard action, then immediately cast a spell. Repeat until Wizard wins or runs out of spells. (If Wizard runs out of spells, he readies an action to move after an Abrupt Jaunt, instead, and it shouldn't be too hard to get away.)

Obviously, if the Wizard were to win initiative, he can just Abrupt Jaunt as a swift action on the first round, and there would be similar results. (Wizard shouldn't attempt to cast a spell immediately, as Fighter could say something and proceed to AoO Wizard.)

At ECL 6, on the other hand, I think Fighter has a better chance:

Now, Fighter can be a Proto-Creature Incarnate Construct Dustform Wild Half-Ogre Half-Minotaur Shalarin Fighter 5 (not sure if he can multiclass, but I'd take a dip of Barbarian for Pounce if he can) with Large size, 49 STR, and the ability to threaten everything within 20ft, all for a Level Adjustment of +1. He can also have the Mage Slayer feat now, so Wizard can't cast defensively against him, and he can also have a Ring of Anticipate Teleportation (CL5 Command Word) 1/day, which he's activating at the beginning of each day because the duration is 24 hours.

I don't think Wizard would stand a chance when he appears adjacent to Fighter, even if he wins initiative, when they're both ECL 6… but maybe I'm missing something?

Calthropstu

2020-07-10, 12:40 PM

No, Rolling Initiative is an opposed ability check. Ability checks are treated similar to untrained skill checks. Skill checks often take actions, but some skill checks are instant and
represent reactions to an event. Rolling for initiative is one such check.

Readying an action might be advantageous to prevent the opponent from successfully performing their action - the one who goes first might choose to ready an action because of that.

Well, this is the question. Biffonacious assumes that the wizard can use their second round's immediate action in response to the fighter using an attack of opportunity in response to the wizard using his readied action to cast a spell in response to the fighter attacking.

Yes. It's an automatic stalemate. He who acts first loses. So, the fighter readies an action to attack upon teleportation. The wizard readies an action cast upon being attacked. The moment the fighter stops readying to attack, the wizard wins. The moment the wizard takes any action, the fighter wins. Meanwhile, the fighter has infinite move actions. But if the wizard takes a move action that provokes, he's dead. The wizards best option is to stand perfectly still.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-10, 12:44 PM

Hello! I saw an interesting discussion, so I made an account to join in.

A bunch of cheese revolving around speaking

Depends on if talking is considered taking an action in combat, to satisfying eliminating the flat-footed condition, or if it's an action outside of combat, which is why it breaks initiative and all other rules we have for combat.

In that case (if we're saying wizards can alway abrupt jaunt no matter what), we'd have to go for the immunity-tanking strategy. As was said on page 1, a human fighter gets 2 feats, 1 fighter feat, and 1 vile feat. With Willing Deformity, Deformity (Madness), Endurance, and Diehard probably just straight-up wins most wizard matchups. You have 14.5 hp vs the Wizard's 2.5 hp, you have immunity to mind-affecting, and if the wizard runs away, you catch up to them with Endurance. The wizard only has two spells per day; they'd have to deal more than 7/spell before the fighter does that much damage.

I suppose instead of Endurance/Diehard, the fighter could Reflexive Psychosis and get immediate-action DR/-, and be confused until the end of their next turn.

A confused character’s actions are determined by rolling d% at the beginning of his turn: 01-10, attack caster with melee or ranged weapons (or close with caster if attacking is not possible); 11-20, act normally; 21-50, do nothing but babble incoherently; 51-70, flee away from caster at top possible speed; 71-100, attack nearest creature (for this purpose, a familiar counts as part of the subject’s self). A confused character who can’t carry out the indicated action does nothing but babble incoherently. Attackers are not at any special advantage when attacking a confused character. Any confused character who is attacked automatically attacks its attackers on its next turn, as long as it is still confused when its turn comes. A confused character does not make attacks of opportunity against any creature that it is not already devoted to attacking (either because of its most recent action or because it has just been attacked).

Adds a bunch of variation to how the battle could go, but as long as the fighter returns to the wizard afterward, the wizard would run out of spells super-quickly. With their fighter feat, they could take Combat Reflexes or Improved Initiative as icing on the cake, although there's probably better feats in that slot.

Calthropstu

2020-07-10, 01:01 PM

So as long as the fighter has a reach weapon and combat reflexes (or, arguably, so long as the wizard doesn't have access to divinations, and therefore doesn't know what type of fighter they will be engaging and whether they'll have reach), the wizard needs the Abrupt Jaunt. Therefore, we can probably conclude that the wizard will be a conjuration wizard, but will not be using Nerveskitter in the melee-reach matchup.

An initiative-based fighter will have a -3 initiative relative to the wizard (since the wizard can use Nerveskitter here), so advantage to the wizard. If the fighter wins, they shoot him with a heavy crossbow. If the wizard wins, they five-foot step away and cast color spray.

The reach fighter has to give up an initiative feat for Combat Reflexes, but the wizard loses Nerveskitter, so it's a net +3 to the fighter, making them equal in initiative. If the wizard and fighter both pumped dex, in the event of a tie, they'd have to roll again -- still no advantage in terms of initiative.

If the wizard wins initiative, they use Abrupt Jaunt (or five-foot step and blockade, same effect), which apparently doesn't provoke AOOs, putting them 15 feet away -- out of range, since we can't get reach or large size at this WBL, and the fighter needs a will save, and moves away (45 feet away, or 40 feet of movement to be adjacent). If the fighter survives, they double move to get closer (or charge, if there's no blockage) -- and the wizard abrupt jaunts again, out of range. The wizard casts a spell, so another will save, and they can move again... This repeats until the wizard has no more uses of Abrupt Jaunt and/or offensive spell X. Wizard probably wins if it goes first.

If the fighter wins initiative, the wizard will be flat-footed, so no Abrupt Jaunts. They're probably better off five-foot stepping away and just hitting the wizard. If the wizard maxed out dex, and has at least two uses of Abrupt Jaunt, they can't have much con, so 2.5 plus con doesn't add up to much in the face of a two-handed weapon attack. Fighter probably just wins here.

So that seems like 50/50, before accounting for the likelihood of breaking AC/killing the wizard vs the likelihood of surviving X amount of will saves. However, let's account for another hypothetical: a fighter with a guisarme but another initiative feat instead of combat reflexes. The wizard, without divinations, has no way of knowing whether the fighter has combat reflexes or not. The wizard still can't safely cast Nerveskitter, since the fighter might have combat reflexes, but the fighter benefits from the +2 initiative from the freed up feat slot. This gives an advantage to the fighter.

True. Once we start going into the realm of tricking the opponent, however, things start to get well into the incalculable territory. We're going build by build, and so far, nothing I can think of beats the 5 foot step + blockade + spell cast + jaunt. Though, this requires abandoning nerveskitter which opens up the initiative race.

Lin

2020-07-10, 01:35 PM

Depends on if talking is considered taking an action in combat, to satisfying eliminating the flat-footed condition, or if it's an action outside of combat, which is why it breaks initiative and all other rules we have for combat.
Well, I did say it was cheesy, but I couldn't find any rule saying that speaking in combat isn't an action during combat and there weren't any houserules in the OP, so I went with what the rules said: that speaking is a free action, which can be taken even when it's not your turn (and if I'm not mistaken, characters only have turns in combat).

Personally, I'd houserule it to not work that way, but a houserule isn't RAW, so…

In that case (if we're saying wizards can alway abrupt jaunt no matter what), we'd have to go for the immunity-tanking strategy. […]
Assuming speaking can be used to cure flat-footed, I'm pretty sure that even a Fighter with Troll-Blooded, Diehard, and Deformity (Madness) will lose to Wizard with Precocious Apprentice (some fire spell) + Fiery Burst or Fell Drain + Easy Metamagic (Fell Drain).
DR only reduces weapon damage, so it won't help you against Fiery Burst (supernatural) or spells, and I'm pretty sure Regeneration won't stop the negative level from an Easy Fell Drain Sonic Snap, but we can use Acid Splash instead if it does.

I mean, Fiery Burst is an awful feat if the campaign doesn't allow for retraining, but Easy Fell Drain can continue to be relevant for quite a while, and it's the deadlier of the two.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-10, 01:40 PM

True. Once we start going into the realm of tricking the opponent, however, things start to get well into the incalculable territory. We're going build by build, and so far, nothing I can think of beats the 5 foot step + blockade + spell cast + jaunt. Though, this requires abandoning nerveskitter which opens up the initiative race.

Yeah, unless you go into niche-build territory with the deformities, seems like it's whoever goes first-- much like at high levels between casters, funnily enough. Rocket tag bears out at all levels of play.

Is there anything the level 1 wizard could do if they knew they would be facing against a fighter with willing deformity - madness shenanigans? They still need to be a conjuration specialist, since the fighter has a feat slot for combat reflexes.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-10, 01:52 PM

In the analysis so far, has the fact that there are no AOOs possible when you are flat-footed been taken into account? And hence, since nerveskitter is cast before anyone is not flat-footed (as a special exception in the rules), it cannot trigger an AOO? And also if you win initiative, the counterparty cannot AOO your first action?

Gavinfoxx

2020-07-10, 01:58 PM

Anthrowhale

2020-07-10, 02:05 PM

You can take AoOs while flat footed with combat reflexes.

Oh, thanks---I had missed that.

Quertus

2020-07-10, 02:14 PM

Doctor Despair

2020-07-10, 02:28 PM

Assuming speaking can be used to cure flat-footed, I'm pretty sure that even a Fighter with Troll-Blooded, Diehard, and Deformity (Madness) will lose to Wizard with Precocious Apprentice (some fire spell) + Fiery Burst or Fell Drain + Easy Metamagic (Fell Drain).
DR only reduces weapon damage, so it won't help you against Fiery Burst (supernatural) or spells, and I'm pretty sure Regeneration won't stop the negative level from an Easy Fell Drain Sonic Snap, but we can use Acid Splash instead if it does.

I mean, Fiery Burst is an awful feat if the campaign doesn't allow for retraining, but Easy Fell Drain can continue to be relevant for quite a while, and it's the deadlier of the two.

First of all, you don't take Troll-Blooded. It's a trap unless you take Half-Undead (Gheden) for immunity to non-lethal damage. :p Diehard doesn't keep you up when you take nonlethal damage equal to your current HP anyway, so as you said, it isn't helpful here, even if the regeneration weren't pierced by fire. Willing Deformity, Deformity: Madness, Endurance, and Diehard were the feats referenced there; we don't have the feats to also take Troll-Blooded, even if we wanted to, without using flaws, which I think we'd discussed we weren't using, but let's say they're on the table. That opens up two more feat slots, which we'll reference later if needed.

Fiery Burst/Precocious Apprentice is going to deal 7 damage on average, which should be enough to down the fighter in 2-3 rounds (14.5 hp before con bonuses). If you go first after having forgone Nerveskitter, you'd have to Abrupt Jaunt out of range, use the ability, and move back. Then, when the fighter charges up to you, you could abrupt jaunt again to avoid the attack. Then, you could Fiery Burst again, bringing the total up to 14. Now the fighter, even with a con bonus, is probably reduces to partial actions, so no more charging, and you'd take him down. However, that doesn't apply if we use a Fire Variant Human. A fire variant human will, among a bunch of interactions with water and cold effects and races, gain fire resistance 5. That will mitigate much of the damage from this effect and allow the fighter to run out the clock on your ability until you run out of abrupt jaunts.

Fell Drain/Easy Metamagic would normally require you to apply it to a 0-level spell, as you only have a level 1 spellslot. Combining it with Precocious Apprentice, you can apply it to a first-level spell, such as sonic snap. However, a human wizard only has two feats, so the build is impossible without flaws. Again, however, let's acknowledge we're opening it up to flaws for this portion of the discussion. Precocious Apprentice requires a DC8 caster level check, so 7/20 times it wastes the spell. That's acknowledging that 7/20 times where you win the initiative battle, you just lose, unless we can find another toy in the level-1 spell playbook. If you lose the initiative battle, you get hit with a two-handed weapon and die.

As an additional response to the Fell Drain strategy, the fighter could use one of those additional Flaw feats to take Enduring Life and ignore the negative levels for 10 rounds per point of con bonus they posess. That puts a damper on it. Additionally, as you said, I think taking Troll Blooded actually would prevent the Sonic Snap from dealing the damage to apply the Fell Drain, although as you said, that's not relevant, as you could swap it for Acid Splash. Honestly, Troll-Blooded is probably a net negative, as taking one point of nonlethal damage when the fighter is at 0 or less hp would cause them to go unconscious, even with Diehard.

emeraldstreak

2020-07-10, 03:38 PM

By RAW, I'm pretty sure that an ECL 1 fighter cannot win at level 1.

Let's not get hasty.

For starters, what about Fighters who threaten at 15 or more feet. Abrupt Jaunt doesn't carry the Wizard far enough.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-10, 03:40 PM

Let's not get hasty.

For starters, what about Fighters who threaten at 15 or more feet. Abrupt Jaunt doesn't carry the Wizard far enough.

How are you getting the extra reach? Permanent enlarge person is 3040gp, and the reach graft is 5k, iirc. Extra reach would help a ton.

emeraldstreak

2020-07-10, 03:47 PM

sonic snap

There are ways to defeat Sonic Snap, but all in due time. For now, let's presume if the Wizard casts he wins.

emeraldstreak

2020-07-10, 03:51 PM

How are you getting the extra reach? Permanent enlarge person is 3040gp, and the reach graft is 5k, iirc. Extra reach would help a ton.

There are feats that grant it as Deformity(Tall), there are weapons with 15' reach like the Rope Dart/Meteor Hammer. Best look up a Lockdown build bible for all options.

Twurps

2020-07-10, 05:05 PM

There are ways to defeat Sonic Snap, but all in due time. For now, let's presume if the Wizard casts he wins.
Well hang on: why is that? I have yet to see a good answer to:

Is there anything the level 1 wizard could do if they knew they would be facing against a fighter with willing deformity - madness shenanigans? They still need to be a conjuration specialist, since the fighter has a feat slot for combat reflexes.

because I'm not buying speaking cures you of flat footed (which is a whole discussion of it's own so I won't go in to it) and irrespective of that:

Cheesy? Yes. RAW? Also yes.

So, assuming both are ECL 1 and Fighter wins initiative:
Wizard says "Oh s***!" as a free action. Wizard is no longer flat-footed.
Fighter uses a standard action to attack Wizard.
Wizard uses Abrupt Jaunt as an immediate action.
Fighter uses a move action to end his turn adjacent to the Wizard.

This doesn't work. Because the fighter does NOT use his standard action to attack, he uses the standard action to ready an attack, triggering upon the wizard acting.

So I think we're still stuck at 'whoever moves first loses. Unless:

There are feats that grant it as Deformity(Tall), there are weapons with 15' reach like the Rope Dart/Meteor Hammer. Best look up a Lockdown build bible for all options.

As far as I'm aware, neither weapon threatens. So they are useless to interrupt casting if the fighter doesn't win initiative. And if he does win initiative, he can ready an action to interrupt the wizards casting/jaunting, but foregoes his own action for that, at which point we're back to the 'first to move loses' scenario, and the weapon doesn't really help as well.
The feat does work for threatening, but feats are costly at this level. and even if you do threaten. the wizard starting 5 feet away, 5-foot steps to 10 feet away, then jaunts to 20 feet away, so still out of reach.

What 15 foot reach does do though, is foil the jaunting in subsequent turns IF the fighter can survive the wizards first blow/can act first. So fighter should use the standard reach weapon/gloves to threaten at the start of combat, but have the 15' weapon as backup. Fighter can then break the deadlock on his turn by:
Free action: drop his glaive
move action: Draw Rope dart(and move towards wizard if he already moved as a readied action)
Standard action: Attack wizard, whether he jaunts or not.

Only thing I'm not sure on: what's the chance a rope dart one shots a wizard?
On the other hand: does he need to one-shot? I'm not seeing a 1 shot kill from the wizard either with the willing deformity-madness shenanigans.

rel

2020-07-10, 05:11 PM

emeraldstreak

2020-07-10, 05:20 PM

If the campaign starts at 1st level and allows retraining, I like to start with Precocious Apprentice (Combust) + Fiery Burst. Fiery Burst is a reserve feat, which grant supernatural abilities and therefore do not provoke AoOs. So if Wizard is like me, he Fiery Bursts and runs. 2d6 fire damage (Reflex half)/round should be enough to take down a 1st-level fighter in 5 rounds (i.e. before you run out of Abrupt Jaunts).

Supernatural Opportunist can deal with Fiery Burst.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-10, 06:47 PM

A fighter with large enough reach to negate abrupt jaunt entirely can be modelled as reach fighter vs wizard without jaunt.
In other words, wizard has to roll concentration to cast.

I worked out a few probabilities for those sorts of scenarios up thread. Advantage goes to fighter in most cases with the exact win chances depending on specific build choices.

Incidentally, I think I have a good enough handle on things to try a statistical analysis including abrupt jaunt next.

So the fire-variant human fighter gets two feats, then their fighter feat, and a vile feat.

If they spend them on Willing Deformity [Level 1], Deformity (Madness) [Human], Deformity (Tall) [Elder Evil worship], and Combat Reflexes [Fighter], and they wield a Guisarme and Armor Spikes, they threaten 5-10 feet with their armor, and 15-20 feet with their guisarme. They are immune to mind-affecting abilities and can make AOOs when flat-footed.

If the fighter wins initiative, he can hit the wizard and, presumably, knock them unconscious. The wizard is flat-footed, and so could not use abrupt jaunt to avoid the attack. That is, of course, if we say that speaking doesn't remove flat-footed. , Speaking "in general" can be performed "even when it isn't your turn," which implies there are situations where you might not be able to (e.g., when you are flat-footed). That you can perform it when it isn't your turn doesn't bestow upon it the same status as an immediate action, too. Once initiative it rolled and combat begins, if the fighter has won initiative, they use their action to attack. If you haven't spoken yet, there's no rule enabling you to speak before the completion of the fighter's attack action. There's no rule giving your character "priority" over the fighter's choice to take an action upon winning initiative. If you speak during or before initiative, before the fighter has won, you haven't acted during combat. Additionally, there's further wiggle room for whether or not you've acted in combat if you speak before the fighter attacks. After all, initiative was rolled, so certainly it's an encounter, but if no one has attacked or taken any aggressive action, is it truly a combat yet? I think the idea is shaky in the first place, but even if speaking does remove the flat-footed condition, I'm not sure you'd be able to speak before the fighter takes their action. Advantage: fighter.

With all that said, if speaking does remove the flat-footed condition, the wizard could abrupt jaunt in response to an attack, but they would be 15 feet away, within the threaten range of the guisarme. Technically, this would allow the wizard to dodge the attack that would have to have been made with the spiked gauntlet. However, if we're allowing that talking removes the flat-footed condition, then we can trade out Combat Reflexes for Exotic Weapon Proficiency and take up the spiked chain. After all, they only need to talk to be able to AOO the wizard, so why would they need Combat Reflexes? This places with wizard within the 5-20 foot threaten range for the attack, so the attack completes as normal, probably downing the wizard. Advantage: fighter.

If the wizard wins initiative, and the fighter has combat reflexes (because talking doesn't break flat-footed), then they could five-foot step (ten feet away), then abrupt jaunt (20 feet away), and still be in range of the fighter. They would have to cast and try to make the defensive casting check. Given that they have to do this anyway, they will probably skip their abrupt jaunt and just use Nerveskitter to try to win initiative. Then, if they have the Precocious Spellcaster/Fiery Burst feat combination as their two feats, they could use the supernatural ability to blast the fighter for 0-7 damage, reflex half, or an average of 2 on a failed save. The fighter has 5.5 + con health, so that shouldn't down them most of the time. Otherwise, they would have three options: cast a spell, smack the fighter with their quarterstaff, or ready an action to do one of the first three options described (no real advantage that I can see). If they cast a spell and the fighter hits them, they probably go down. Armor spikes deal 1d6 + strength damage, which is more than the wizard's 1d4 + con most of the time. If they attack, they'd deal 1d6 + strength (or, more likely, minus strength). The fighter probably doesn't go down in the wizard's first turn.

The fighter then has to make a choice. The wizard has their immediate action back. They can move up and ready an action to attack when the wizard takes any action, meaning the wizard can't take any action (after all, if the immediate action abrupt jaunt occurs before their original action, then the readied action would trigger on the immediate action rather than the action it originally seemed like it would trigger on; if the immediate action does not occur before their original action, and the fighter's readied attack would, then the immediate action couldn't dodge it). This leaves them with a hard draw until one or both of them die of starvation or pass out from lack of sleep. I suppose this is technically advantage fighter, since they have the better fort save. Advantage fighter, or draw, depending on your criteria. It is of note that the fighter, on a matchup where the wizard has won initiative, has the choice to hard-draw the match, meaning that the fighter seems to have no losing matchup here, at least given the wizard strategies detailed so far -- only matches where they win initiative and win on average, or matches where they lose initiative and draw (providing the fighter has enough con to prevent the wizard from one-shotting them with max damage rolls).

The fighter could also try to charge and attack the wizard (ending their charge 10 feet away from the wizard to avoid their quarterstaff, but missing their attack, because of that abrupt jaunt). The wizard is now 15 feet away, still in the threatened range. They used their jaunt for the turn, and a five-foot step leaves them in the threatened range. They can, however, ready an action to hit the fighter with their quarterstaff, or do another fiery burst, if they have those feats. Then, the wizard could burst the fighter on their approach, and abrupt jaunt to avoid the melee damage again. This would repeat until the wizard had used all 4 of their jaunts, dealing a cumulative 0-35 (reflex half) from the fiery burst, at which point the wizard would have no more abrupt jaunts and would, presumably, go down to a charge. On average, the five fiery bursts would deal 2 damage each, or a cumulative 10, with all failed reflex saves. The fighter would have to roll an 11 (minus the fighter's dex) to pass it, so roughly a 50% chance to pass with neutral dex. On a successful reflex save, a fiery burst would deal 0 (5/6 chance) or 1 (1/6 chance), so the fighter would take an average of 2 damage on a failed save, or an average of 0.17 damage on a successful save, for a cumulative average of 1.1 damage per fiery burst (or 5.5 exactly, the fighter's average hp before their con value). I'm no math teacher, so I'm not certain who to call advantage for in this case, but it'd certainly be close. Tentatively advantage fighter, assuming the fighter has at least +1 con bonus and neutral dex.

Gnaeus

2020-07-10, 06:57 PM

Doctor Despair

2020-07-10, 06:59 PM

Fighter starts with his weapon in hand. Wizard starts with a wand in hand. Wands don’t provoke.

Wand of what? Would that be prohibitively expensive for a level 1 character?

Lans

2020-07-11, 12:35 AM

Wand of what? Would that be prohibitively expensive for a level 1 character?

He might be trying to buy a wand with 1 charge. Other than that, I think there are starting packages in the Forgotten realms campaign setting that gave a wand to some characters.

Twurps

2020-07-11, 03:51 AM

First: minor nitpick where I may have to correct myself:

As far as I'm aware, neither weapon threatens.
Meteor hammer/rope dart are Dragonmagazine? I don't own any dragonmagazine and was confusing these with the 'regular' 15' reach weapons out there. So these might threaten, or not. I don't know, but it's not important because:

So the fire-variant human fighter gets two feats, then their fighter feat, and a vile feat.

If they spend them on Willing Deformity [Level 1], Deformity (Madness) [Human], Deformity (Tall) [Elder Evil worship], and Combat Reflexes [Fighter], and they wield a Guisarme and Armor Spikes, they threaten 5-10 feet with their armor, and 15-20 feet with their guisarme. They are immune to mind-affecting abilities and can make AOOs when flat-footed.
[/B]
So fighter doesn't need those weapons. At this point, I think the wizard is better off not having abrupt jaunt, regaining his familiar for a humming bird, and regaining his swift actions for either nerveskitter or blockade. At that point: the initiative race is firmly back in favor of the wizard. However:

The fighter has 5.5 + con health, so that shouldn't down them most of the time.
At first level, you get full HPs. So for the fighter, that's the full 10+con. As far as I'm aware, that means the fighter doesn't have to win initiative. He can just be al fightery and 'tank' whatever wizard throws at him. And then murderhobo the wizard at leasure in his own turn.

Gnaeus

2020-07-11, 07:02 AM

He might be trying to buy a wand with 1 charge. Other than that, I think there are starting packages in the Forgotten realms campaign setting that gave a wand to some characters.

We’ve also been discussing level 3 and 6 characters. Wands are well within reach then.

Aharon

2020-07-11, 07:04 AM

Well, I did say it was cheesy, but I couldn't find any rule saying that speaking in combat isn't an action during combat and there weren't any houserules in the OP, so I went with what the rules said: that speaking is a free action, which can be taken even when it's not your turn (and if I'm not mistaken, characters only have turns in combat).

Personally, I'd houserule it to not work that way, but a houserule isn't RAW, so…

The Player's Handbook specifies flat-footed more specifically than the Glossary and the SRD do:

Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. (This fact can be very bad for you if you’re attacked by rogues.) Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed. A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.

This rules out the "Free action talking to become non-flat-footed" idea.

Twurps

2020-07-11, 08:00 AM

We’ve also been discussing level 3 and 6 characters. Wands are well within reach then.

I think we've been focusing mainly on lvl 1 because as levels gets higher, wizard's options expand exponentially compared to the fighters options. (wands being just 1 of many extra options that come with increased spell-levels). So if wizard wins level 1, the other levels don't really need discussion. So far though, it's looking good for lvl1 fighter. and avoiding AoO's isn't going to save the wizard at that level.

So maybe lvl3 is a good level to look at: let's assume the fighter goes for mage-slayer at lvl3. but is otherwise the same fighter: What would a wizard bring to the table at that level?

Calthropstu

2020-07-11, 08:10 AM

First: minor nitpick where I may have to correct myself:

Meteor hammer/rope dart are Dragonmagazine? I don't own any dragonmagazine and was confusing these with the 'regular' 15' reach weapons out there. So these might threaten, or not. I don't know, but it's not important because:

So fighter doesn't need those weapons. At this point, I think the wizard is better off not having abrupt jaunt, regaining his familiar for a humming bird, and regaining his swift actions for either nerveskitter or blockade. At that point: the initiative race is firmly back in favor of the wizard. However:

At first level, you get full HPs. So for the fighter, that's the full 10+con. As far as I'm aware, that means the fighter doesn't have to win initiative. He can just be al fightery and 'tank' whatever wizard throws at him. And then murderhobo the wizard at leasure in his own turn.

In the lvl 1 fight, nerveskitter is bad. It shuts down jaunt AND blockade on the first round severely hampering the wizard and opening him up to aoo.

Twurps

2020-07-11, 09:03 AM

In the lvl 1 fight, nerveskitter is bad. It shuts down jaunt AND blockade on the first round severely hampering the wizard and opening him up to aoo.

Then don't use nerveskitter, but when the fighter has 20' reach (deformaty: tall) which is what we've been going for, jaunt doesn't help either. So neverskitter is the next best thing, as it at least allows the wizard to go first. (I haven't seen a 'non mind affecting turn 1 kill, but at least when you go first: you only have to survive 1 round to do a 2 round kill.) I'm open to anything better, as nerveskitter still costs a spell-slot. So maybe blockade? but then what? Full cover goes both ways, so wizard has to step away from it, again leaving himself open to AoO's.

Blockade into fiery burst? I'm not sure what array we're going for, but fiery burst required 15 int. leaving the wizard lacking in either dex and therefore initiative, and/or con.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-11, 10:28 AM

Once we get past level one, we are also leaving Troll-Blooded / Half-Undead (Gheden) on the table. This makes the wizard immune to literally everything the fighter can do until he gets an acid or a fire weapon. If we're open to Kingdoms of Kalamar, by ECL3 the wizard could take Tainted-Blood for acid immunity, but since you need level 7 wbl to get the fire subtype (Mantle of the Fiery Spirit), fire resist 5 is the best they could hope for.

Since you need level 4 WBL to get a flaming weapon (maybe there's a cheaper effect in the MIC), that could mean an auto-win for the wizard at the level 3 benchmark without some racial/natural fire attack.

However, the wizard can get Elusive Dance by level 6 to invalidate the AOO-build entirely, too, leaving the wizard free to bombard the fighter with spells, so they probably want to keep it to LA+1 so they can hit 6 on-time.

The fighter also has access to this race/feat combination, and can have an immunity to mind-affecting effects. With immunity toal but fire, fire resistance 5, and immunity to mind-affecting by level 3, it's just a question of who kills the other first: the wizard with fire spells (or other non-mental disabling debuffs, once you get 2nd or 3rd level spells respectively), or the fighter with a flaming sword damaging through fire resistance on maximum damage rolls. The fighter gets more hp, but the wizard will do triple damage at level three, or double damage at level 6, plus being way more options available... I'd say strong advantage to the wizard at level 6, although I'm less sure at level 3 when the wizard can still lose spells to AOOs.

However, while the advantage seems to go to the fighter at level 1 against a normal or even a super niche wizard, one build we should consider is the "wizard" with 18 strength. They abrupt jaunt to avoid attacks, as the original wizard, and ready their action to attack the fighter when he comes into range. They're down one BAB, but they get a bunch of effective health from the teleportation dodges, and they get immediate-action or swift-action spells.

Twurps

2020-07-11, 11:27 AM

Once we get past level one, we are also leaving Troll-Blooded / Half-Undead (Gheden) on the table. This makes the wizard immune to literally everything the fighter can do until he gets an acid or a fire weapon. If we're open to Kingdoms of Kalamar, by ECL3 the wizard could take Tainted-Blood for acid immunity, but since you need level 7 wbl to get the fire subtype (Mantle of the Fiery Spirit), fire resist 5 is the best they could hope for.

Gheden is Dragon magazine right? I was trying to stay away from those because I don't own them or can legally consult all of them. Like most others here I would assume. But let's let than one slide for now. If we're doing totally new builds for lvl3 (and why not). Then the fighter gets a rebuild too. I'm sure there's templates that give immunity to mind affecting (fey-touched): so that saves him a feat (deformaty-mad). And fire damage is pretty easy to at low levels. Dragonborn of bahamuth gets a breath weapon doing fire damage. As that has a decent range. We also don't need deformaty tall anymore.
Downside: 2 extra templates instead of actual levels doesn't do much for the fighters HP pool, it does free up just as much feats as leveling to lvl3 would give him though.

However, while the advantage seems to go to the fighter at level 1 against a normal or even a super niche wizard, one build we should consider is the "wizard" with 18 strength. They abrupt jaunt to avoid attacks, as the original wizard, and ready their action to attack the fighter when he comes into range. They're down one BAB, but they get a bunch of effective health from the teleportation dodges, and they get immediate-action or swift-action spells.

the fighter with deformity-tall doesn't care about jaunting, because you'll end up still being within reach. So it'll still 'out damage' the wizard when they go 'slug fest' on each other.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-11, 11:39 AM

the fighter with deformity-tall doesn't care about jaunting, because you'll end up still being within reach. So it'll still 'out damage' the wizard when they go 'slug fest' on each other.

Tall grants you 10 feet of natural reach, yes, but unless we're taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, if we attack the adjacent wizard with our armor spikes, that means we're not using our guisarme, so the jaunt to 15 feet would let them dodge the attack. If we attack with a spiked chain, you're right, though. I'm not sure what we could afford to give up for it though.

I suppose with flaws, we could take EWP and Enduring Life as the bonus feats, or technically we could load up on a bunch of taint for a bonus feat. Setting that aside, I guess if we knew we were going against that sort of wizard, we could swap out "tall" for it and let the wizard use a spell every time they jaunt? Otherwise we just have to acknowledge that the wizard can dodge our attacks once per jaunt.

Edit: Actually, spiked chain doesn't even do it, since you dont threaten 15 feet without tall. You'd need EWP: Rope Dart/Meteor Hammer or whatever, assuming they do threaten their reach

emeraldstreak

2020-07-11, 11:57 AM

Adding Inhuman Reach as a possible way to increase reach. Pursue could be of use too, but it's kinda Eberron specific.

Calthropstu

2020-07-11, 12:02 PM

emeraldstreak

2020-07-11, 12:15 PM

At level 3 and moreso at level 6, WBL means both sides can start with buffs meeting the 1 hour duration established early in the thread. Consumables would also play a huge role. Stuff like Feather Token:Whip becomes available. High level scrolls become available to the Wizard by PHB RAW. Anything UMD becomes available to the Fighter, plus tons of potions and psionic tattoos.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-11, 12:20 PM

An exoticist fighter (Dragon #310) is proficient in 4 exotic weapons.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-11, 12:22 PM

So we have established that:

A lvl 1 wizard generally loses (or automatically draws) to a lvl 1 fighter when attempting to optimize a combat reflexes build. Nerveskitter makes the wizard lose even more. If 15 foot reach is achieved, then the fight seriously goes to the fighter.

Let's start optimizing for level 3.
Resources to work with:
Wizard: 4 1st, 3 2nd 1 of each must be specialty school. 9hp + 3x con. 2 feats. racial bonuses. +1 bab.
Fighter: 4 feats (2 must be combat), 21 + 3x con hp, racial bonuses. +3 bab.
Let's take a look at potential builds and see what we can do with this.

Should we discuss this in terms of templates, or should we stick with template-neutral builds? If we allow templates, it opens us up to having to discuss and game-out the damage-immune Troll-Blooded match-up, along with a bunch of other niche match-ups, and maybe misses the spirit of the "wizard vs fighter" discussion, as it'd be more like "racial/template features vs racial/template features." In that sense, can we agree that the discussion, at least for now, be limited to LA0 races with no templates?

Twurps

2020-07-11, 12:33 PM

Tall grants you 10 feet of natural reach, yes, but unless we're taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, if we attack the adjacent wizard with our armor spikes, that means we're not using our guisarme, so the jaunt to 15 feet would let them dodge the attack. If we attack with a spiked chain, you're right, though. I'm not sure what we could afford to give up for it though.

Good point. but does it matter? The main trick here was to keep the wizard in range on the wizards turn. If the wizard jaunts out of glove range, he still stays within guisarme range and is now without a swift action for his next turn. a 5 foot step doesn't take him out of range, and other forms of movement provoke. So how will the wizard do anything without eating an AoO?

so basically: Fighter uses his own turn to use up the wizards swift action (jaunt or blockade alike). Then on the wizards turn he gets to attack each time the wizard attacks. (the wizard can of course choose not to attack, but then he will just have wasted a swift action, and the fighter can rinse/repeat next round with 0 resources lost to him. that means they're trading attacks equally if the wizard still gets to cast, and trade in favor of the fighter if the wizard loses his spell. Even equal trade is bad for wizard, as he does equalish damage, but had far fewer HP's.

edited to add:

Should we discuss this in terms of templates, or should we stick with template-neutral builds? If we allow templates, it opens us up to having to discuss and game-out the damage-immune Troll-Blooded match-up, along with a bunch of other niche match-ups, and maybe misses the spirit of the "wizard vs fighter" discussion, as it'd be more like "racial/template features vs racial/template features." In that sense, can we agree that the discussion, at least for now, be limited to LA0 races with no templates?

Good idea.

Calthropstu

2020-07-11, 12:33 PM

Should we discuss this in terms of templates, or should we stick with template-neutral builds? If we allow templates, it opens us up to having to discuss and game-out the damage-immune Troll-Blooded match-up, along with a bunch of other niche match-ups, and maybe misses the spirit of the "wizard vs fighter" discussion, as it'd be more like "racial/template features vs racial/template features." In that sense, can we agree that the discussion, at least for now, be limited to LA0 races with no templates?

Hmmm. I agree in theory. There is something to be said about templates/races allowing for options to negate certain aspects of the other class. In fact, we took elf into account for lvl 1 negating sleep. But LA0, no templates no RHD seems a fair compromise. Otherwise we're just running in circles arguing that "this racial ability negates that spell, and.." etc.

I am not the op of course. But has the op said anything since posting this?

Doctor Despair

2020-07-11, 12:43 PM

An exoticist fighter (Dragon #310) is proficient in 4 exotic weapons.

Oh, that's excellent. So with a free usage of spiked whip and reach, we get an attack every time they jaunt. Yes... I think that's actually just a straight-up win for Exoticist Fighter at level 1. If they go first, they kill the wizard. If the wizard goes first, they can't move or cast without taking an AOO.

Their best option is to five-foot step, use blockade, and try to cast a spell, but I don't think there's any one spell that will deal 10 damage at level one. Following that, the fighter walks up to the wizard and brains them with the chain. Actually... does that work? The chain is a reach weapon, which normally use the rules of cover for hitting targets 10 feet away, but our natural reach is 10 feet. Could we use our chain (or our armor spikes) to AOO the wizard over the Blockade with our 10 feet of natural reach? Either way, the fighter wins this matchup.

Alternatively, they five foot step and use Fiery Burst, and jaunt away. Then, the fighter walks up and brains then with the chain.

Very nice find.

Good point. but does it matter? The main trick here was to keep the wizard in range on the wizards turn. If the wizard jaunts out of glove range, he still stays within guisarme range and is now without a swift action for his next turn. a 5 foot step doesn't take him out of range, and other forms of movement provoke. So how will the wizard do anything without eating an AoO?

The wizard jaunts in response to our glove attack, avoiding the attack. Then, we don't have our attack anymore. The wizard is 15 feet away, so they five-foot step and use Fiery Burst to hit us for damage. They can't cast spells or use SLAs, but they can use SU abilities. Alternatively, with the 18 str wizard, they can ready an action to attack us when we enter range. Then, after hitting us, when we go to attack them, they can Jaunt away, and repeat that until they run out. We threaten them, but we lose these trades as long as they have uses of Jaunt, because we can't hit them until they run out. However, as someone above pointed out, a fighter ACF gets Exotic Weapon Proficiency for free, so we have the spiked chain, and all is well.

Hmmm. I agree in theory. There is something to be said about templates/races allowing for options to negate certain aspects of the other class. In fact, we took elf into account for lvl 1 negating sleep. But LA0, no templates no RHD seems a fair compromise. Otherwise we're just running in circles arguing that "this racial ability negates that spell, and.." etc.

I am not the op of course. But has the op said anything since posting this?

Certainly there's merit to discussing the use of templates and LA races, and it might be worth circling back to, but as there's so much variation, I think it's important to establish a baseline for performance between the two classes before we add in those new variables.

I don't think OP has chimed in.

emeraldstreak

2020-07-11, 01:28 PM

use Fiery Burst

Using Fiery Burst causes AoOs if the Fighter has Supernatural Opportunist.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-11, 02:31 PM

In terms of cranking up level 1 wizard damage, a Sudden Maximize Sudden Empower Sunstroke puts out an expected 15.5 nonlethal damage which is typically enough to down any level 1 fighter.

Calthropstu

2020-07-11, 02:55 PM

In terms of cranking up level 1 wizard damage, a Sudden Maximize Sudden Empower Sunstroke puts out an expected 15.5 nonlethal damage which is typically enough to down any level 1 fighter.

You can't get either of those at lvl 1

Edit: at least, not without taking flaws. But optional rule, and nothing was said about allowing it.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-11, 03:05 PM

Using Fiery Burst causes AoOs if the Fighter has Supernatural Opportunist.

That's true, but from where can we safely take two feats (since Opportunist has a feat prereq)? I just don't see how we adress that niche weakness without losing more matchups than we win with it. On the upside, I think we decided we win more often than not against the Fiery Burst build with a fire variant human, which is nice.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-11, 04:49 PM

You can't get either of those at lvl 1

Edit: at least, not without taking flaws. But optional rule, and nothing was said about allowing it.

I'm not following? Sudden Maximize is a metamagic feat which requires a metamagic feat as prerequisite. Sudden Empower is the same. Hence, a human wizard could take both with each qualifying the other.

Calthropstu

2020-07-11, 04:58 PM

I'm not following? Sudden Maximize is a metamagic feat which requires a metamagic feat as prerequisite. Sudden Empower is the same. Hence, a human wizard could take both with each qualifying the other.

Not how prereq's work. A human could take 1, but you can't "simultake" both feats to qualify them both. One of the feats needs to be a non-sudden metamagic feat... which would be virtually useless in this fight.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-11, 05:41 PM

Not how prereq's work. A human could take 1, but you can't "simultake" both feats to qualify them both. One of the feats needs to be a non-sudden metamagic feat... which would be virtually useless in this fight.
Can you produce a quote for that?

Investigating some other possibilities:
Shocking Grasp + touch attack + Iron Will + Reserves of Strength = 4d6 (~=14) damage gated by only the touch attack.

Hail of Stone + Iron Will + Reserves of Strength = 4d4 damage with no save and no SR. Not quite enough.

Kelgore's Fire Bolt + Iron Will + Reserves of Strength = 4d6 (~=14) damage Reflex for 1/2 damage.

Backbiter might be a winner though---it seems(?) to have no save for nonmagical weapons and it wastes the fighter's action, so it's effectively no-save weapon damage + daze.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-11, 05:54 PM

Can you produce a quote for that?

Investigating some other possibilities:
Shocking Grasp + touch attack + Iron Will + Reserves of Strength = 4d6 (~=14) damage gated by only the touch attack.

Hail of Stone + Iron Will + Reserves of Strength = 4d4 damage with no save and no SR. Not quite enough.

Kelgore's Fire Bolt + Iron Will + Reserves of Strength = 4d6 (~=14) damage Reflex for 1/2 damage.

Backbiter might be a winner though---it seems(?) to have no save for nonmagical weapons and it wastes the fighter's action, so it's effectively no-save weapon damage + daze.

Each of those would trigger an AOO that would probably kill the wizard.

If the wizard lived, the spells, respectively, require a touch attack, a ranged attack, a reflex save for half, and a will save (possibly; it says magic items get a will save, then says items in a creature's possession can use their wielder's, offering two different ways to read it).

Regardless, those are decent damage, but that's why the fighter is using a reach weapon in the first place. Additionally, except for the Backbiter method, if the fighter lives, he gets to kill the stunned wizard the next round. With Backbiter, the fighter could pass the will save (if the DM says it offers one) or fail to break their own AC. Then, the wizard can jaunt away, use it one more time, and then, if the fighter didn't go down to the second reflected attack, die to the confused mundane combatant.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-11, 06:04 PM

Each of those would trigger an AOO that would probably kill the wizard.

The DC to cast defensively is 16. Combat Casting + max ranks in concentration + con 14 gives you a base of 10, so you only fail defensive casting 30% of the time. Using that with Backbiter seems potentially effective?

Incidentally, an attack from the fighter isn't quite instadeath in my understanding. For example, a Conjuration Domain wizard can cast Mage Armor for a +4 armor bonus that lasts for 2 hours. More than one hour is valid as preparation, right? An AC of 18=10+4(armor)+4(dex) is not trivial for the fighter to get through.

Twurps

2020-07-11, 06:39 PM

Oh, that's excellent. So with a free usage of spiked whip and reach, we get an attack every time they jaunt. Yes... I think that's actually just a straight-up win for Exoticist Fighter at level 1. If they go first, they kill the wizard. If the wizard goes first, they can't move or cast without taking an AOO.
I was trying to stay away from dragon magazine stuff. other than that: agreed.

Their best option is to five-foot step, use blockade, and try to cast a spell.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but as I understand it, blockade produces a solid block of wood, and needs a empty square to be produced in. As the fighter will be adjacent to the wizard when he initiates his attack, there's no space for the block to form. And even if it does: The block would provide cover, thwarting the fighter's attack, but it would also ruin the wizards line of sight. So after creating the block, he'd have to move to regain line of sight, and still be open to AoO's.

Alternatively, with the 18 str wizard, they can ready an action to attack us when we enter range. Then, after hitting us, when we go to attack them, they can Jaunt away, and repeat that until they run out.
Any turn in which the wizard doesn't do anything (ie spends to ready an action) the fighter is not going to come into range of an armed wizard. He'll approach to 10'range and initiate an attack, forcing some sort of resource out of the wizard (1 use of blockade or jaunt probably). then 1 round later, neither wizard nor fighter will have had a usefull attack, but fighter is down 0 resources, and wizard is down 1. So rinse and repeat advantage fighter.

We agree on the outcome though :)

Anthrowhale

2020-07-11, 06:49 PM

If the wizard lived, the spells, respectively, require a touch attack, a ranged attack, a reflex save for half, and a will save (possibly; it says magic items get a will save, then says items in a creature's possession can use their wielder's, offering two different ways to read it).

Hail of Stone does not require a ranged attack---it's a no-save, no-SR, L1 area effect.

Another combo:
Fire Domain Wizard + Cali****e Elementalist[Fire] + Bloodline of Fire + Burning Hands = 5d4 damage (~= 12.5) with a Reflex for 1/2. That may be enough to matter.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-11, 07:54 PM

The DC to cast defensively is 16. Combat Casting + max ranks in concentration + con 14 gives you a base of 10, so you only fail defensive casting 30% of the time. Using that with Backbiter seems potentially effective?

Actually, I just re-read Backbiter. It only works on wooden-hafted weapons. We'll spend some WBL to not have a wooden-hafted weapon.

With regard to the casting defensively for other spells, however: we'd need to see the full build to say exactly what the chance is. The purpose of this challenge isn't to say "this fighter can't be beaten by any wizard." If we're discussing a different wizard build, we can necessarily discuss other fighter builds. However, bear in mind that the wizard doesn't have infinite point-buy. A con of 14 means a lower int, or a lower dex, all of which open up other avenues of optimization for the fighter to take into the matchup.

With that said, let's take the current build. The build so far, for reference, is:

Fire-Variant Human
Exoticist Fighter 1 (Proficient with Spiked Chain)
Willing Deformity [Level 1], Deformity (Madness) [Human], Deformity (Tall) [Elder Evil Worship], and Combat Reflexes [Fighter],
Natural Reach: 10 feet
Threaten Range: 5-20 feet
Immune to Mind-Affecting; can AOO when flat-footed

If the fighter goes first, they make an attack and, if they hit, the wizard presumably goes down.

If the wizard goes first, there's no easy way not to trigger an AOO. Casting defensively is their option then; if their plan is to do so, they can ditch the conjuration specialty and go for Nerveskitter again to try to ensure they go first. 30% of the time they fail to cast defensively, and the fighter gets an attack which, if it hits, would presumable take them down. If they succeed, they cast one spell -- that has, using Reserves of Power as you referenced, X% chance of taking them down, varying based on fighter stats and gear:

Shocking Grasp: After a successful touch attack (X% chance of failure to hit), 4d6 (average 14). The fighter, if they have 18 con, would live on average, but be disabled. The wizard is stunned for three rounds thereafter, so if the fighter lives and has a potion of cure light wounds to drink, that wizard will probably go down.

Hail of Stone: After a successful ranged attack (X% chance of failure to hit), 4d4 (average 10). Worse than shocking grasp in almost every way. Actually, it might be even worse than that; it's a ranged attack, so would it provoke a second attack of opportunity? Once when you cast the spell, and again when you make the ranged attack? Regardless, even if not: worse than shocking grasp, and also leaves you stunned for three rounds.

Kelgore's Fire Bolt: No attack roll, 4d6 fire damage (average 14). Much like shocking grasp, but offers a reflex save for half damage and, more importantly, deals fire damage, so the fire resistance 5 comes in again. On a failed save, average damage becomes 9; on a successful save, average damage becomes 5. Average damage doesn't down the fighter with neutral con, let alone positive con. Seems worse than shocking grasp as an option, save that it doesn't require an attack roll, and again leaves you stunned for three rounds.

Without modifying the fighter's build at all, this seems like a poor matchup.

Incidentally, an attack from the fighter isn't quite instadeath in my understanding. For example, a Conjuration Domain wizard can cast Mage Armor for a +4 armor bonus that lasts for 2 hours. More than one hour is valid as preparation, right? An AC of 18=10+4(armor)+4(dex) is not trivial for the fighter to get through.

OK, so we can discuss buffs, but be aware that the wizard only gets one or two level 1 spells. Let's ignore the option of buffs the fighter could pay for someone to cast for now. The wizard (you've given him 18 dex and 14 con so far; are you tanking int? That'll make your saves lower for the fighter, too) has 18 AC in your scenario. The fighter with the above-described build has 1 BAB, +4 to hit, and +1 from a masterwork weapon, before any buffs. That'd be a relative 12 AC, or a 40% chance to break it, and damage rolls should be sufficient to down the wizard afterward. That's assuming the wizard isn't flat-footed of course, in which case it's a 60% chance. It is a decent chance to miss.

However, as you've used mage armor for one level 1 spell, if your remaining level 1 spell doesn't down the fighter, the wizard is in a tough spot; I don't think the wizard is likely to win if the fighter gets to start repeating that 40-60% chance on them multiple times. Also of note: nerveskitter is a level 1 spell, so that means you're fighting the fighter with no level 1 combat-spells, or you're tanking your initiative advantage. Again, if the fighter goes first, the wizard has a pretty decent chance of just losing (flat-footed AC makes it more likely than not the fighter hits). We need to make a concerted decision here on what strategy the optimal wizard pursues there.

Another option that hasn't been discussed is grappling. If the fighter feels insecure about their ability to hit the wizard, they could go for a grapple and just wear a bunch of armor. Throw on a potion of mage-armor, wield a non-masterwork chain, toss a buckler on there, and the fighter's AC is looking like at least 19. They drop their chain as a free action and make a touch attack against the wizard; wizard has 14 AC if they're not flat-footed, or else it's a 10. The wizard probably whiffs on their AOO, and they are grappling, where the fighter has a +5 to the wizards probably negative modifier, and pummels him with unarmed attacks. I think the fighter is probably better off just going for a hit, but the option is there.

Hail of Stone does not require a ranged attack---it's a no-save, no-SR, L1 area effect.

Another combo:
Fire Domain Wizard + Cali****e Elementalist[Fire] + Bloodline of Fire + Burning Hands = 5d4 damage (~= 12.5) with a Reflex for 1/2. That may be enough to matter.

Hail of Stone does require a ranged attack. It allows SR, but has no save. Are you possibly thinking of a different spell entirely?

Conjuration (Creation) [Earth]
Level: Sorcerer 1, Wizard 1,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: Cylinder (5-ft. radius, 40 ft. high)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

You create a rain of stones that deal damage to creatures and objects they strike.
Make a ranged attack roll (not ranged touch) against every creature and relevant object in the spell's area.
Your bonus for this attack roll is equal to your caster level plus your relevant ability modifier (Intelligence for wizards or Charisma for sorcerers).
A successful hit deals 1d4 points of damage per caster level, to a maximum of 5d4.
Material Component: A piece of jade worth at least 5 gp.

So let's set aside the fact that you're changing the prestige class, so we no longer need a bunch of our feats (after all, the wizard no longer has Abrupt Jaunt)...

Specifically, if the wizard isn't taking color spray or abrupt jaunt, we don't need any deformities at all. That opens up two feats to use for optimization, and we can take some other bonus vile feat for marginal benefit.

... 5d4 fire damage averages out to 12.5. The sample build has fire resistance 5, so the average damage will be 8 -- not enough to down the fighter. Additionally, it allows for reflex half, so while a failed save results in an average of 8 damage, a successful save results in an average of 2 damage. Additionally, Burning Hands is not an immediate or swift-action spell, so it provokes attacks of opportunity again.

tyckspoon

2020-07-11, 08:05 PM

Hail of Stone does require a ranged attack. It allows SR, but has no save. Are you possibly thinking of a different spell entirely?

Conjuration (Creation) [Earth]
Level: Sorcerer 1, Wizard 1,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 round
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: Cylinder (5-ft. radius, 40 ft. high)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

You create a rain of stones that deal damage to creatures and objects they strike.
Make a ranged attack roll (not ranged touch) against every creature and relevant object in the spell's area.
Your bonus for this attack roll is equal to your caster level plus your relevant ability modifier (Intelligence for wizards or Charisma for sorcerers).
A successful hit deals 1d4 points of damage per caster level, to a maximum of 5d4.
Material Component: A piece of jade worth at least 5 gp.

Outdated version of the spell. It's been reprinted and updated in Complete Arcane (SR and Attack Roll got removed, placed on the Warmage and Wu Jen lists) and then again in Spell Compendium (added back to the general Wiz/Sorc list, as SR No, no attack roll, no save throw. Which makes it mostly notable for being nearly impossible to avoid damage, as it's No SR No Save untyped non-specifically targeted damage.. it's also pretty crummy damage, which is going to make it a poor choice for this competition anyways unless you can cheese in a bunch of extra metamagic.)

Doctor Despair

2020-07-11, 08:07 PM

Outdated version of the spell. It's been reprinted and updated in Complete Arcane (SR and Attack Roll got removed, placed on the Warmage and Wu Jen lists) and then again in Spell Compendium (added back to the general Wiz/Sorc list, as SR No, no attack roll, no save throw. Which makes it mostly notable for being nearly impossible to avoid damage, as it's No SR No Save untyped non-specifically targeted damage.. it's also pretty crummy damage, which is going to make it a poor choice for this competition anyways unless you can cheese in a bunch of extra metamagic.)

Ah, that's fair. Yeah, even allowing the ranged attack in the old spell succeeded, the damage doesn't down the fighter in one go here on average. It is better than the old version though, for sure.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-11, 08:35 PM

Spell Compendium also updates Backbiter to apply to all melee weapons.

A question: How much wealth is being assumed? Masterwork weapons are typically not available at level 1.

(more later)

Zarvistic

2020-07-11, 08:43 PM

Kauper's Quickblast with Fell Drain could be interesting as it's a swift action kill I believe. Does need caster level 2 and metamagic reduction, which should be doable, maybe with Easy Metamagic and Metamagic School Focus.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-11, 09:07 PM

Spell Compendium also updates Backbiter to apply to all melee weapons. (more later)

Ah, I see. Backbiter gets a lot better then. So we'd see marchups like:

Fighter goes first: attacks, hits, knocks out wizard

Fighter goes first: attacks, misses, proceed to wizard turn as if fighter hadn't gone.

Wizard goes first: Defensive casting; fails, loses spell, passes back. Wizard has no level 1 spells left.

Wizard goes first: casts, provoking aoo. Fighter hits, and wizard loses the spell. Wizard has no level 1 spells left.

Wizard goes first: defensive casting succeeds, or fighter misses aoo, so they cast Backbiter. Fighter, although unaware of the effects, fears they won't break the wizard's ac because they cast a spell with no obvious effect, so instead goes for a melee touch attack against the wizard, proceeding to grapple rules. Wizard uses abrupt jaunt to port away, dodging the attack, but has no level 1 spells left.

Clearly the last scenario is pretty ideal for the wizard using Backbiter, although it leaves them in an awkward spot where they have no level 1s. Again, this is why I'd caution against mage armor. They then have to deal with the unarned fighter charging at them every turn, kiting them with level 0 spells, or their remaining level 1 spell if they didn't use mage armor...

However, this likely ends in a draw. The fighter, instead of attacking, drops his weapon and readies an action to make a melee touch attack (to grapple) on the wizard if they take any action. As discussed upthread, this means that at this point in the fight, the wizard must either tank the hit (and tank it every time, as the fighter will repeat this strategy), or do nothing until the character with less con passes out (probably the wizard). Advantage to the fighter here.

Kauper's Quickblast with Fell Drain could be interesting as it's a swift action kill I believe. Does need caster level 2 and metamagic reduction, which should be doable, maybe with Easy Metamagic and Metamagic School Focus.

The wizard only has two feats though, sadly; the exercise isn't using flaws. If they add flaws, the fighter can take enduring life to delay the effects until they down the wizard.

________

Edit: I suppose that using negative levels suggests the fighter can only ever draw until they get slots for Endurance and Lasting Life, since they would die upon the effect timing out. However, I feel like using our level 3 feat for that instead of Mage Slayer and/or Occult Opportunist would be a mistake... However, that's all moot by level 6 when the wizard takes elusive dance. Maybe there's something we can get to help with martial study...

I suppose for the level 3 fight, the wizard could take Apprentice (Entertainer) to make perform a class skill, and then take Elusive Dance at level 3. That's race-neutral and wins the wizard the fight with a feat to spare for improved initiative.

That being the case, the lockdown build is ONLY relevant at level 1 in this 1v1. After that, the fighter would have to optimize initiative and hope they win the roll, despite the disadvantage of Nerveskitter. The builds would look very different.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-11, 11:14 PM

I'd still like an answer about wealth---the wizard can use wealth very advantageously, so if there is more-than-normal wealth available (to buy a masterwork weapon for example), that could really change things.

Of the wizard approaches discussed:

(1) Sudden Maximize Sudden Empower Sunstroke works pretty well. Calthropstu thinks it's illegal, but hasn't found a quote yet and it looks clearly legal to me as all prereqs are satisfied.
(2) Backbiter seems interesting as a low-investment approach. As far as I can tell from the description, there is _no_ save since the weapon is not magical. (Yes, it's nice that you can use your save if it is magical.)

Nevertheless, here's a third approach which looks a bit more foolproof.

For a wizard build, let's go with a Hengeyokai Sparrow Martial (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizard) Conjuration Domain (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#conjurationDomain) wizard with a Rhamphorhynchus familiar (Dragon #318). Str 8, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 6, Cha 8. In sparrow form, which can be maintained indefinitely, it has Str 1, Dex 23, Con 10 and Fly 50' (average).

The Feats are:
Martial Wizard: Improved Initiative
Level 1: Surrogate Spellcasting

Spells:
Domain slot: Mage Armor (precast)
Wizard 1: Sunstroke
Intelligence Bonus: Sunstroke

Touch AC is: 28=10+8(size)+6(Dex)+4(Mage Armor)
Initiative bonus is: +13=+6(Dex)+4(Improved Initiative)+3(Familiar)

Skills appear irrelevant.

Equipment is a light crossbow and some bolts.

The wizard loses initiative 3.75% fraction of the time. Assuming a win, the wizard will use a move action to fly up and 25' away and a standard action to cast Sunstroke using Surrogate Spellcasting. The fighter makes an AOO, but only has a 5% chance of hitting AC 28. The fighter takes 2d6 nonlethal damage and must make a fort save (DC 15) or become fatigued (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fatigued). The fighter can then respond, but has only a 5% chance of hitting AC 28. The wizard casts Sunstroke again, delivering another 2d6 damage which has a good chance of knocking out or staggering the fighter (average damage is 14 now) and forces another fort save which causes fatigue (if the first save was made) or escalates to exhaustion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#exhausted) if both fail.

The wizard will transform into hybrid form (Fly 20', Str 8, Dex 18, Con 14) which reduces initiative to +11 and AC to 18, then follow up with crossbow fire (+4 to hit) until the fighter is down.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-11, 11:18 PM

Hengeyokais have a level adjustment, I'm pretty sure.

Oh, fair. I overestimated starting wealth a bit. No masterwork then; -1 to hit, 5% swing.

I'm fairly certain you aren't eligible to select either feat until you have a metamagic feat first. You either select one feat before the other, or you select them at the same time, but in either case you don't meet the prerequisite at the time you take the feat, so you can't select it.

However, notably, if you hypothetically temporarily had a metamagic feat at level 0, you could select them both, and if you later lost that level 0 feat, they should self-qualify like you want

Anthrowhale

2020-07-11, 11:26 PM

Hengeyokais have a level adjustment, I'm pretty sure.
Dragon Magazine #318 page 34 updates them to have the humanoid type, shapechange subtype, and LA+0.

Calthropstu

2020-07-11, 11:26 PM

Ah, I see. Backbiter gets a lot better then. So we'd see marchups like:

Fighter goes first: attacks, hits, knocks out wizard

Fighter goes first: attacks, misses, proceed to wizard turn as if fighter hadn't gone.

Wizard goes first: Defensive casting; fails, loses spell, passes back. Wizard has no level 1 spells left.

Wizard goes first: casts, provoking aoo. Fighter hits, and wizard loses the spell. Wizard has no level 1 spells left.

Wizard goes first: defensive casting succeeds, or fighter misses aoo, so they cast Backbiter. Fighter, although unaware of the effects, fears they won't break the wizard's ac because they cast a spell with no obvious effect, so instead goes for a melee touch attack against the wizard, proceeding to grapple rules. Wizard uses abrupt jaunt to port away, dodging the attack, but has no level 1 spells left.

Clearly the last scenario is pretty ideal for the wizard using Backbiter, although it leaves them in an awkward spot where they have no level 1s. Again, this is why I'd caution against mage armor. They then have to deal with the unarned fighter charging at them every turn, kiting them with level 0 spells, or their remaining level 1 spell if they didn't use mage armor...

However, this likely ends in a draw. The fighter, instead of attacking, drops his weapon and readies an action to make a melee touch attack (to grapple) on the wizard if they take any action. As discussed upthread, this means that at this point in the fight, the wizard must either tank the hit (and tank it every time, as the fighter will repeat this strategy), or do nothing until the character with less con passes out (probably the wizard). Advantage to the fighter here.

The wizard only has two feats though, sadly; the exercise isn't using flaws. If they add flaws, the fighter can take enduring life to delay the effects until they down the wizard.

________

Edit: I suppose that using negative levels suggests the fighter can only ever draw until they get slots for Endurance and Lasting Life, since they would die upon the effect timing out. However, I feel like using our level 3 feat for that instead of Mage Slayer and/or Occult Opportunist would be a mistake... However, that's all moot by level 6 when the wizard takes elusive dance. Maybe there's something we can get to help with martial study...

I suppose for the level 3 fight, the wizard could take Apprentice (Entertainer) to make perform a class skill, and then take Elusive Dance at level 3. That's race-neutral and wins the wizard the fight with a feat to spare for improved initiative.

That being the case, the lockdown build is ONLY relevant at level 1 in this 1v1. After that, the fighter would have to optimize initiative and hope they win the roll, despite the disadvantage of Nerveskitter. The builds would look very different.

How many times do I have to say this?

NERVESKITTER = FIGHTER WIN. Nerveskitter makes the wizard unable to jaunt on his first turn opening him up to aoo from combat reflexes. Stop thinking nerveskitter is good for this scenario. It is basically HANDING the first round to the fighter.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-11, 11:28 PM

How many times do I have to say this?

NERVESKITTER = FIGHTER WIN. Nerveskitter makes the wizard unable to jaunt on his first turn opening him up to aoo from combat reflexes. Stop thinking nerveskitter is good for this scenario. It is basically HANDING the first round to the fighter.

Elusive Dance renders the wizard immune to AOOs.

Prerequisite: Perform (dance) 5 ranks.
Benefit: During your action, you designate an opponent. That opponent cannot make attacks of opportunity against you. You can select a new opponent on any action. If you have the Dodge feat you must designate the same opponent as the target for both feats.

Calthropstu

2020-07-11, 11:34 PM

Elusive Dance renders the wizard immune to AOOs.

Prerequisite: Perform (dance) 5 ranks.
Benefit: During your action, you designate an opponent. That opponent cannot make attacks of opportunity against you. You can select a new opponent on any action. If you have the Dodge feat you must designate the same opponent as the target for both feats.

what is this feat from?

Doctor Despair

2020-07-11, 11:41 PM

what is this feat from?

Dragon #333, page 88; same one that had Master of Mockery.

el minster

2020-07-11, 11:56 PM

you can't get 5 ranks in preform at first level

Doctor Despair

2020-07-12, 12:07 AM

you can't get 5 ranks in preform at first level

I was discussing it for the level 3 fight, not the level 1 fight. Technically, however, I suppose you could do something like...

Class: Wizard ACF that trades Scribe Scroll for fighter feats
Skills: Dump 8 skillpoints into cross-class perform to get 4 ranks
Level 1: Favored
Human: Primary Contact
Fighter Feat: Elusive Dance

Edit: Actually, I forgot that it'd still be cross-class limited by max ranks, so we could only have 2 ranks, not 4. We apply skillpoints before feats, so Apprentice doesn't help us get there. Sad. Well, not really sad; wizards don't need the help, haha. Looks like wizards have to wait until level 2 for Elusive Dance (with their second fighter feat)

Edit2: Am I misremembering, or do some races treat skills as class skills regardless of their class? That would let a level 1 wizard use flaws to get Elusive Dance, I suppose

emeraldstreak

2020-07-12, 12:35 AM

Troll-blooded and either one of high AC or DR(https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?318188-Feats-that-grant-DR) outpace Sunstroke+archery damage.

Calthropstu

2020-07-12, 01:14 AM

Dragon #333, page 88; same one that had Master of Mockery.

hmmmm. I didn't know we were allowing 3rd party stuff. Now that I reread the thread, there's a lot of dragon mag stuff that should probably be tossed.

Dragon mag is 3rd party, period. Unless we're opening up all 3rd party, dragon mag should be out.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-12, 07:37 AM

Troll-blooded and either one of high AC or DR(https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?318188-Feats-that-grant-DR) outpace Sunstroke+archery damage.
Do you have an example build?

I was trying to come up with a way to counter the sunstroke sparrow, but is seems fairly tricky. If the fighter's Con is less than 18, the odds of being knocked out rise rapidly. A high dexterity + improved initiative helps, but you can't have a high strength, constitution, and dexterity simultaneously.

Dragon mag is 3rd party, period. Unless we're opening up all 3rd party, dragon mag should be out.
In the various Iron Chef build contests, dragon magazine is at least allowed for the purpose of updates, which is all that's really needed for the sunstroke sparrow build.

Treating dragon mag as generic third party also seems questionable in the sense that WoTC both endorsed dragon mag content and regularly borrowed from dragon mag in WotC content.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-12, 08:56 AM

hmmmm. I didn't know we were allowing 3rd party stuff. Now that I reread the thread, there's a lot of dragon mag stuff that should probably be tossed.

Dragon mag is 3rd party, period. Unless we're opening up all 3rd party, dragon mag should be out.

So just to clarify: you think we should limit the discussion to first party material?

We'd have to take a look back, but that removes all or most of the dragon stuff (I think like five issus of dragon are technically first party, if I remember correctly, but I cant remember which ones). Occult Opportunist, Troll Blooded, Half-Gheden, Tainted Blood, and Elusive Dance are all third party with the Wizards logo, I believe, so if we rule those out, it could be worth actually considering the level 3 and 6 matchup. Without the immunity-tanking, though, I'm pretty sure the wizard just wins if they can avoid one AOO to leave the Mage Slayer range (as one abrupt jaunt is no longer sufficient), for which we can do some pre-work with while we sort out the level 1 matchup.

Asmotherion

2020-07-12, 09:17 AM

A wizard and fighter spawns right next to each other in a dungeon like a goblin cavern from the opening of goblin slayer does the wizard win,

If both are level one,

If both are level 3.

If both are level 6.

Best out of hundred.

In level 1, it comes down to whoever gets Initiative. HP and possible DPT are more or less equal at those levels.

By level 3, a Wizard wins 9/10. A simple example for this is Ghoul Touch, or the much more broken and infamous (Lesser) Shivering Touch. There are much more a Wizard can do, this serves as a simple example. Also, a wizard has ways at this levels to buff his AC way beyond a Fighters to-hit (Alter Self into a Troglodyte + Mage Armor + Shield + 4 Dex= 28 AC Add a posible Protection from X for an other +2 deflection. Fighter BAB +3, Str bonus +5 meaning he needs a natural 20 to hit).

At level 6, an average built Wizard wins 10 out of 10 times. Besides the former, he can summon heavy bruisers, and shrink item also creates a further gap in power.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-12, 10:12 AM

By level 3, a Wizard wins 9/10. A simple example for this is Ghoul Touch, or the much more broken and infamous (Lesser) Shivering Touch. There are much more a Wizard can do, this serves as a simple example. Also, a wizard has ways at this levels to buff his AC way beyond a Fighters to-hit (Alter Self into a Troglodyte + Mage Armor + Shield + 4 Dex= 28 AC Add a posible Protection from X for an other +2 deflection. Fighter BAB +3, Str bonus +5 meaning he needs a natural 20 to hit).

Also by level 3, a wizard can buy high level scrolls which they can cast 100% of the time using Arcane Mastery.

Twurps

2020-07-12, 10:19 AM

In level 1, it comes down to whoever gets Initiative. HP and possible DPT are more or less equal at those levels.
No they're not. you get full HP's at lvl1 which means Fighter gets 10 where wizard gets 4. that's a factor of 2.5. Granted that both can have somewhat of a decent con score. But at the rate people have been tossing around 18's for the wizard in just about any stat, it's not going to matter much. Even if both have a full 18 on con. it's still 14HP, vs 8. that's still more that 1.5 times the HP pool for the figher.

And has been established so far: the fighter doesn't really need to win initiative to still win the fight.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-12, 10:31 AM

In level 1, it comes down to whoever gets Initiative. HP and possible DPT are more or less equal at those levels.

Very possible, although if the wizard's AC is high enough, it's problematic. Take an anthropomorphic raven (Savage Species), which gets +2 to its dex from its race, then an additional +1 to its AC from its size. That's an AC of 21 with mage armor, full dex, and a buckler, or 16 flatfooted. Unless the fighter has a fly speed, the wizard just has to get 25 feet in the air to automatically win the encounter, right? So a non-flying fighter must then necessarily land a hit that presumably knocks out the wizard. If the fighter goes first, they get one attack, then one attack of opportunity when the wizard flies 15 feet up, and then the wizard can abrupt jaunt the rest of the way. The first attack, with the AC mentioned before, would be a 45% to hit, and the second would be a 20% chance to hit. Cumulatively, that is a 44% chance that the wizard avoids both hits and wins if the fighter goes first. If the wizard goes first, that is an 80% chance that the wizard avoids the one hit the fighter would be entitled to.

Against that build, the fighter would need DR that lets them ignore the arrows (tough), AC high enough that the wizard can't hit the fighter (banking on the wizard running out of arrows before they roll enough nat 20s to kill the fighter), a ranged-build that does more damage than the flying wizard plus a level 1-spell's worth of damage, or a fly speed to pursue the wizard.

Against the wizard using mage armor and flying away, the fighter wouldn't want deformity (tall), so that frees up a feat.

By level 3, a Wizard wins 9/10. A simple example for this is Ghoul Touch, or the much more broken and infamous (Lesser) Shivering Touch. There are much more a Wizard can do, this serves as a simple example. Also, a wizard has ways at this levels to buff his AC way beyond a Fighters to-hit (Alter Self into a Troglodyte + Mage Armor + Shield + 4 Dex= 28 AC Add a posible Protection from X for an other +2 deflection. Fighter BAB +3, Str bonus +5 meaning he needs a natural 20 to hit).

At level 6, an average built Wizard wins 10 out of 10 times. Besides the former, he can summon heavy bruisers, and shrink item also creates a further gap in power.

At level 3 with Mage Slayer, the fighter still gets an AOO off on a wizard using any of the Touch spells, and the wizard can't cast defensively. Alter self doesn't have an hour duration, so it's off limits here. That's not to say the wizard doesn't have more or better tools to beat the fighter with, but you should factor Mage Slayer into your considerations.

Or, again, the fighter could try to get into an initiative fight, I suppose, assuming the wizard's flat-footed AC doesn't outpace the fighter's BAB gains.

Asmotherion

2020-07-12, 11:17 AM

No they're not. you get full HP's at lvl1 which means Fighter gets 10 where wizard gets 4. that's a factor of 2.5. Granted that both can have somewhat of a decent con score. But at the rate people have been tossing around 18's for the wizard in just about any stat, it's not going to matter much. Even if both have a full 18 on con. it's still 14HP, vs 8. that's still more that 1.5 times the HP pool for the figher.

And has been established so far: the fighter doesn't really need to win initiative to still win the fight.

Well, unless it's an Elf Fighter we're talking about, Sleep and then Coup de Grace will still take care of the 1HD fighter, no matter if he's 10 or even 20 Hp. Then, there's also Cause Fear, Ray of Enfeeblement, Greace, Hypnotism and Charm Person, all of wich will incapaciate somehow the Lv1 fighter. And I'm only talking about core here. Thus, I stand by my statement "whoever wins initiative".

On Alter Self: A 10min/caster level duration, aka 30 minutes is not enough for a Wizard knowing he'll face a Fighter to cast beforehand? Well, he can still cast it in the first round I guess, not much changes. There's also the Lesser Deflect Spell from PHB2 for a +1 AC as an imediate action, adding to the potential survivability of the Wizard the 1st turn.

On Mage Slayer: Cannot come online for a pure Fighter before Lv4, when they have the 2 ranks in spellcraft. Thus the Mage slayer is a factor in the Lv6 comparison, but not the Lv3. By the time a Wizard has access to 3rd level spells, he is expotentially more potent. For example, again from PHB2 there is the Hesitate spell (again, an imediate action, that unless the Fighter is somehow imune to mind affecting things, he's toast).

Even more significant is the fact that, for a fighter to have a fair chance against a Wizard, he must be specifically build to be an anti-wizard, wile the Wizard just needs to stick to standard good spells he'd use either way.

emeraldstreak

2020-07-12, 11:23 AM

Asmotherion

2020-07-12, 11:49 AM

What's Sleep casting duration?

1 full round casting. 1 minute per level duration. Why?

Doctor Despair

2020-07-12, 11:50 AM

Well, unless it's an Elf Fighter we're talking about, Sleep and then Coup de Grace will still take care of the 1HD fighter, no matter if he's 10 or even 20 Hp. Then, there's also Cause Fear, Ray of Enfeeblement, Greace, Hypnotism and Charm Person, all of wich will incapaciate somehow the Lv1 fighter. And I'm only talking about core here. Thus, I stand by my statement "whoever wins initiative".

On Alter Self: A 10min/caster level duration, aka 30 minutes is not enough for a Wizard knowing he'll face a Fighter to cast beforehand? Well, he can still cast it in the first round I guess, not much changes. There's also the Lesser Deflect Spell from PHB2 for a +1 AC as an imediate action, adding to the potential survivability of the Wizard the 1st turn.

On Mage Slayer: Cannot come online for a pure Fighter before Lv4, when they have the 2 ranks in spellcraft. Thus the Mage slayer is a factor in the Lv6 comparison, but not the Lv3. By the time a Wizard has access to 3rd level spells, he is expotentially more potent. For example, again from PHB2 there is the Hesitate spell (again, an imediate action, that unless the Fighter is somehow imune to mind affecting things, he's toast).

Even more significant is the fact that, for a fighter to have a fair chance against a Wizard, he must be specifically build to be an anti-wizard, wile the Wizard just needs to stick to standard good spells he'd use either way.

Sleep is mind-affecting (the fighter is immune), as are many others, and many offer a save. They all provoke an attacks of opportunity and/or require the wizard to make a successful attack roll. The wizard does not automatically win if they go first, but they do have a pretty good chance. The fighter doesn't automatically win if they go first, as they have to land a hit, but has a pretty good chance.

Early in the thread, someone suggested no buffs of less than an hour in duration. Personally, I'd say no buffs until the wizard learns a divination spell that would tell them the time this fight takes place (otherwise, we'd have to use a percentile to determine how many spells the wizard has left; they might not HAVE any levels 1s available by the time this encounter starts. Heck, they might not even have their buff active if it isn't an all-day buff!), but I was using the hour limit from earlier.

Using your immediate action to get one more AC instead of using it for Nerveskitter or Abrupt Jaunt seems poor. Additionally, you can't immediate action if the fighter goes first and your character is flat-footed.

At level three, the fighter can have two ranks in spellcraft. It's not a class skill, so the max ranks for it are half the max ranks for a class skill (2 at level 1, 3 at level 4), and you have to put in 4 skillpoints to get two ranks (half a rank per skillpoint), but it's definitely possible, even with 1 skillpoint per level.

Asmotherion

2020-07-12, 11:56 AM

Sleep is mind-affecting (the fighter is immune), as are many others, and many offer a save. They all provoke an attacks of opportunity and/or require the wizard to make a successful attack roll. The wizard does not automatically win if they go first, but they do have a pretty good chance. The fighter doesn't automatically win if they go first, as they have to land a hit, but has a pretty good chance.

Early in the thread, someone suggested no buffs of less than an hour in duration. Personally, I'd say no buffs until the wizard learns a divination spell that would tell them the time this fight takes place, but I was using the hour limit from earlier.

Using your immediate action to get one more AC instead of using it for Nerveskitter or Abrupt Jaunt seems poor. Additionally, you can't immediate action if the fighter goes first and your character is flat-footed.

At level three, the fighter can have two ranks in spellcraft. It's not a class skill, so the max ranks for it are half the max ranks for a class skill (2 at level 1, 3 at level 4), and you have to put in 4 skillpoints to get two ranks (half a rank per skillpoint), but it's definitely possible, even with 1 skillpoint per level.

Eh, I was trying to solve this as a "stay in melee". But yeah, forgot about nerveskitter.

Also yeah, miscalculation on my part about the skill points.

Quertus

2020-07-12, 01:14 PM

Doctor Despair

2020-07-12, 01:23 PM

So to recap...

If the fighter goes first, the wizard needs to have a high AC to avoid the hit.

If the wizard optimizes for initiative, they have access to the same amount of feats as a fighter (if they take that martial variant ACF), but gain a hummingbird familiar and Nerveskitter, giving them a net +9 to initiative. If both sides optimize for initiative, I think the wizard should come out ahead.

If the wizard pumps their AC, they should have at least 18 or 19 (+4 mage armor, +4 or 5 for dex), leaving the figher with a 30% chance of winning.

Alternatively, the fighter could ready an action to hit the wizard if they take any action. This would mean that get an AOO if the wizard moves or casts a spell (if it isn't defensive), a prepared attack if the wizard does not abrupt jaunt, and a prepared attack if the wizard abrupt jaunts, regardless of their reach. Each of these would have approximately a 30% chance of hitting, so with the two of them, there is a 51% chance of winning.

If the fighter goes second, the fighter needs combat reflexes to make an AOO. Combat reflexes are then required to not lose 100% of those matches, regardless of your build.

With combat reflexes active, if the wizard wants to cast spells, the wizard needs to cast defensively (DC 15+Spell Level, so probably a feat-tax for combat casting to reduce it to effective 11 + Spell Level, leaving a 40-45% faliure rate, after which the fighter now has a distinct advantage, modified by con, of course. With 16 con, it looks more like a 25-30% failure rate) or avoid the fighter's attacks (a high AC, or conjuration specialist for abrupt jaunt).

If the fighter wants to stop the abrupt jaunt from dodging AOOs, they need exoticist (EWP: Spiked Chain), willing deformity, and deformity (tall) to threaten a 20-foot range. This leaves a high AC and defensive casting unanswered. However, it does discourage the wizard from taking a conjuration specialty into a blind matchup.

I don't think the fighter can do anything about defensive casting without their prepared attack, so 30% is the ceiling for the wizard's failure rate to cast a spell, I think. In order to have an equal chance of being hit, the wizard's effective AC (current AC minus the fighter's to-hit) would have to be 15. The wizard reaches that with mage armor and 20 dex. Thus, further optimization of the fighter's to-hit need only reduce the wizard's effective AC more if the wizard's AC exceeds 19, although optimization of that to-hit is helpful to increase the fighter's chances in the event that the fighter wins initiative or survives the wizard's spells.

If the wizard uses a mind-affecting spell, the fighter needs willing deformity / deformity (madness) to eliminate that avenue of attack.

If the wizard uses Fiery Burst to avoid AOOs, the fighter probably needs to be a fire variant of whatever race they are to avoid death. Notably, this means the wizard is human, therefore lacking a fly speed, and does not have combat casting, as it requires two feats to perform.

It seems like if the wizard wants a damaging spell, they have to deal an average of 14 damage to down an 18 con fighter, or 19 fire damage. Many of these offer saves for half. The fighter will have at least a 50/50 chance at making these saves, so unless the wizard has further ways to avoid the fighter's attacks, a reach fighter may have a slight advantage if the wizard just stands in the fighter's range and trades blows this way.

If the wizard prepares back-biter, the fighter has to resort to grappling, as their weapon becomes invalid, lowering the wizard's effective AC to 15, or less flat-footed. A grappling fighter requires that the wizard has a conjuration specialty to avoid the touch attack. Notably, grappling is always a viable strategy, again necessitating that the wizard is a conjuration specialist unless they can down the fighter in their first turn.

The wizard, with a fly speed, can try to use their AC to tank one attack of opportunity to leave the fighter's threatened area vertically. Upon doing so, a melee fighter has no means to actually damage them. If that wizard has a conjuration specialty, the fighter needs to have deformity (tall) and a spiked chain to actually threaten them for that AOO; otherwise the wizard automatically wins that exchange. Upon exiting the fighter's threatened range, the wizard could fly away, ensuring a draw, or pelt the fighter with arrows until they give up. Technically, if the wizard doesn't hit the fighter except on a nat 20, the fighter could use the arrows as improvised thrown weapons, and then their HP advantage may be relevant again.

A fighter that also has a fly speed could follow the wizard, although I'm personally not very clear on the mechanics of fly-by attack and whatnot to know exactly how that aerial combat would work out.

A fighter that has a ranged weapon in their pocket could return fire. The wizard has several level 0 spells and a level 1 spell as their advantage; the fighter has one more BAB, and 6 more starting HP before accounting for con.

Can anyone think of anything I've left out here?

Next dumb question: does the existence of Nerveskitter ever favor the Fighter?

The wizard seems to need his immediate action to Abrupt Jaunt; what about the Fighter? Can paying someone for "Imbue with Spell Ability: Nerveskitter" ever be advantageous for the Fighter?

The fighter can't afford it with starting wealth. :/

Twurps

2020-07-12, 01:28 PM

Next dumb question: does the existence of Nerveskitter ever favor the Fighter?

The wizard seems to need his immediate action to Abrupt Jaunt; what about the Fighter? Can paying someone for "Imbue with Spell Ability: Nerveskitter" ever be advantageous for the Fighter?

Pfff. good way to complicate things :)
The fighter would certainly benefit from going first, and has immediate actions to spare as you say. So from that perspective: yes.
I have no idea what that would cost. If we're still talking lvl1 though, it's going to take a big chunk of the fighters money. To be fair, he hasn't used much of his wbl so far with only 1 or 2 weapons. but I'd say it's going to at least come at the opportunity cost of having a masterwork weapon.

Also: isn't 'imbue with spell ability' cleric spells only?

Calthropstu

2020-07-12, 02:02 PM

Remember the build people. If we are taking out dragon mag for 3rd party, the dance making him immune to aoo is gone. Which means nerveskitter once again is a stupid move. If fighter gets nerve skitter, and it has become a stupid move for the wizard, that is a pure +5 on the fighter for init with no answer from the wizard.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-12, 02:50 PM

Can anyone think of anything I've left out here?

You've left out the Hengeyokai Sparrow which can reach AC 28 and your Anthropomorphic Raven which might be able to reach AC 25 (=10+4(mage armor)+5(Dex)+1(size)+1(Dodge feat)+4(Tower Shield)). You could rule out the former by discarding the Oriental Adventures 3.5 update, although the latter remains relevant. The basic idea with the shield is to fly away and then drop it before casting spells.

It's also the case that backbiter explicitly does not announce itself, so a fighter without foreknowledge of the tactic will stab themselves. The handling of foreknowledge here is tricky.

Abrupt Jaunt is also incompatible with a familiar unless the Obtain Familiar feat is taken. Hence Abrupt Jaunt and initiative optimization are somewhat incompatible.

Quertus

2020-07-12, 03:46 PM

Pfff. good way to complicate things :)
The fighter would certainly benefit from going first, and has immediate actions to spare as you say. So from that perspective: yes.
I have no idea what that would cost. If we're still talking lvl1 though, it's going to take a big chunk of the fighters money. To be fair, he hasn't used much of his wbl so far with only 1 or 2 weapons. but I'd say it's going to at least come at the opportunity cost of having a masterwork weapon.

Also: isn't 'imbue with spell ability' cleric spells only?

Fair enough. Looked it up online, and you appear to be correct: Cleric spells only.

Still, that was just a potentially cheap way to get access to spells, not the only way. Question still stands. And not just for level 1. Is there any point at which this spell helps the Fighter?

Doctor Despair

2020-07-12, 03:52 PM

You've left out the Hengeyokai Sparrow which can reach AC 28 and your Anthropomorphic Raven which might be able to reach AC 25 (=10+4(mage armor)+5(Dex)+1(size)+1(Dodge feat)+4(Tower Shield)). You could rule out the former by discarding the Oriental Adventures 3.5 update, although the latter remains relevant. The basic idea with the shield is to fly away and then drop it before casting spells.

It's also the case that backbiter explicitly does not announce itself, so a fighter without foreknowledge of the tactic will stab themselves. The handling of foreknowledge here is tricky.

Abrupt Jaunt is also incompatible with a familiar unless the Obtain Familiar feat is taken. Hence Abrupt Jaunt and initiative optimization are somewhat incompatible.

Dealing with what a person knows or doesn't know, as pointed out above, is tricky. For example, the wizard should technically have to act at all times as if the fighter has combat reflexes, even if they do not, because they can't know what feat they have. It is reasonable for the fighter to hold the weapon until their turn in initiative to threaten AOOs, then drop it when their turn comes. It is also reasonable for the fighter to hold their weapon, then see the wizard successfully cast a spell which had an effect they are unaware of, make a spot check, see that the wizard looks unaffected, know that they feel unaffected, and conclude that it must have been an effect that would prevent him from killing the wizard with their weapon, and so throw down their weapon. Iirc, you can make melee touch attacks/grapples while holding your weapon, so technically all that's needed is they decide to grapple if they see a spell successfully cast that they don't see any effects for, rather than throwing down their weapon, but I digress.

As pointed out above, the wizard will want to have abrupt jaunt to avoid the melee touch attack if they stand still, or to prevent an additional attack if they fly up. I think this hypothetical build needs to be a conjuration specialist if the wizard is going to just stand still and cast for that reason; it adds a significant element of risk to allow the fighter any more attacks than they would otherwise be entitled to.

However, with regard to flying up, the tower shield adds an interesting element. The tower shield can provide total cover if you give up your attacks. I'm not sure if there are other rules precluding this, but the wizard could hypothetically jaunt 10 feet away (total of 15 feet away), use the shield for total cover (preventing attacks from the reach weapon), then fly up 15 feet, still retaining total cover, right? Then the fighter would never have the opportunity to take a single AOO? That would mean that the wizard can reach cruising altitude of 25 feet with both level 1 spells free for whatever we want to use them for, ranged weapons, or whatever other strategies we want to use? We can't use Nerveskitter, of course, since we need the jaunt, and we lose the familiar, but we can throw in improved initiative and two initiative feats to at least match whatever the fighter has and have a 100% chance of winning if the wizard wins initiative.

If the fighter wins initiative against that build, they have to break AC19 flatfooted AC if we use mage armor (without the dodge feat), or a relative 15 after the fighter's to-hit, with a 30% chance of success that presumably finishes the wizard, or 25% if we take the dodge feat.

Instead, they could immediately go for the grapple. Touch AC is 11 there, or a relative 7, so there's a 70% chance of success. Before that, the wizard gets to make an AOO. The fighter has 10 + 4 (dex) + 4 (chain) + 1 (buckler), although if we're forgoing the entire spiked chain, it could be a bigger shield probably. Either way, it's unlikely the wizard breaks it -- probably a 5-10% chance after optimization. Let's be generous and say 10%. The fighter could take Improved Grapple to avoid the AOO, too, I suppose. Regardless, if the AOO fails, then they do opposed grapple checks.

Let's say for this strategy, the fighter has 18 strength; the wizard probably has 18 dex, at least 11 int, and maybe as much as a 16 in strength, but the raven has a -6 to strength, and is a size category down (-4). If the fighter has Improved Grapple, that's another 4 points of disadvantage. The raven wizard has -7 to their grapple modifier, and the fighter has +9, for a net of +16. For the wizard to win, the fighter has to roll a 1, 2, or 3, and the wizard needs to roll an 18, 19, or 20 respectively. It would be one successful check to grapple, then a successful check to avoid breaking it, then one more check to pin (or to attack; the fighter takes a -4 for attacking, but can use their spiked gauntlets, and the wizard loses their dex to AC, and can't cast most of their spells).

So the fighter has a 70% to make their touch attack, a 90% chance to avoid the wizard's aoo (63% cumulative), an 87% chance to beat the wizard in the initial grapple check (55% cumulative) and deal unarmed damage to the wizard (this will down the wizard if they have a neutral or negative con), an 87% chance to pin (47%), and then presumably the odds don't go down two much, as the wizard from thereon has a 1% chance to win a grapple twice in a row, so we'll say a final 46% chance to maintain the grapple until the wizard or the fighter goes down.

If the wizard breaks free of the grapple or prevents the grapple, they can jaunt away, tower shield for cover, and fly up as previously described.

It seems like the flying conjuration tower shield wizard has a more positive than not win rate (just over 50%). I don't think there's much the fighter can do about that except optimize for grapple to make sure their winrate stays at 45% or higher if they win initiative, or optimize for initiative to ensure their overall winrate goes up.

The flying wizard beats the normal reach lockdown builds.

Reach lockdown builds beat normal conjuration wizards pretty often, and normal wizards somewhat often.

Normal conjuration wizards beat fighters without reach/combat reflexes.

Overall, non-conjuration specialist wizards tend to win initiative more often than fighters, and fighters who don't have willing deformity / deformity (madness) will go down to the color sprays and whatnot more often than not.

RSGA

2020-07-12, 04:59 PM

It's probably not optimal in most cases, but here wouldn't a mithral light shield and the Shielded Casting feat work pretty well for the 3rd (potentially) and 6th level Wizards? No ACF, your casting doesn't provoke AoOs, and you're probably not casting Shield in combat so it's even a little bit of AC that you didn't have before. And at 6th this defensive kit will take most of your WBL, but also add on a +1 Feycraft Padded Armor with a Lesser Crystal of Glancing Blows and you are still immune to AoOs from casting but also have a +5 Circumstance bonus to avoid being Grappled.

Unfortunately, there's not a good way to fit in a nice source of repeatable CL 12 Magic Vestiment but if you could that would mean an upgrade to the Great Crystal of Glancing Blows and the bonus becomes +10.

tyckspoon

2020-07-12, 05:12 PM

It's probably not optimal in most cases, but here wouldn't a mithral light shield and the Shielded Casting feat work pretty well for the 3rd (potentially) and 6th level Wizards?

If you're concerned that Mage Slayer or similar abilities might be in play, it would probably be worth accepting the possibility of a failed spell and just using a normal Light Shield to enable this - it's only 5% failure odds, which is still a huge improvement over your odds of losing if you let the Fighter take a swing at you .. actually, the DMG2 armor templates would be perfect here. Make it Feycraft or Githcraft and enjoy your ASF 0 Light Shield. It does require you to have shield proficiency, which for a standard Wizard is going to require spending another feat or finding some odd racial choice that can give you that.

Twurps

2020-07-12, 05:13 PM

Fair enough. Looked it up online, and you appear to be correct: Cleric spells only.

Still, that was just a potentially cheap way to get access to spells, not the only way. Question still stands. And not just for level 1. Is there any point at which this spell helps the Fighter?
Short answer: It would help the fighter tremendously. But as I don't know any way of getting it for the fighter, I've not factored it in. If you know of options to do so, I'd be glad to hear them. :)

Dealing with what a person knows or doesn't know, as pointed out above, is tricky. For example, the wizard should technically have to act at all times as if the fighter has combat reflexes, even if they do not, because they can't know what feat they have. It is reasonable for the fighter to hold the weapon until their turn in initiative to threaten AOOs, then drop it when their turn comes. It is also reasonable for the fighter to hold their weapon, then see the wizard successfully cast a spell which had an effect they are unaware of, make a spot check, see that the wizard looks unaffected, know that they feel unaffected, and conclude that it must have been an effect that would prevent him from killing the wizard with their weapon, and so throw down their weapon. Iirc, you can make melee touch attacks/grapples while holding your weapon, so technically all that's needed is they decide to grapple if they see a spell successfully cast that they don't see any effects for, rather than throwing down their weapon, but I digress.
Agreed: I think we established upthread: any round in which the fighter is not attacked, he should not blindly attack himself. So there's no metagaming involved there. It's just in general the better course of action.

However, with regard to flying up, the tower shield adds an interesting element. The tower shield can provide total cover if you give up your attacks. I'm not sure if there are other rules precluding this, but the wizard could hypothetically jaunt 10 feet away (total of 15 feet away), use the shield for total cover (preventing attacks from the reach weapon), then fly up 15 feet, still retaining total cover, right? Then the fighter would never have the opportunity to take a single AOO? That would mean that the wizard can reach cruising altitude of 25 feet with both level 1 spells free for whatever we want to use them for, ranged weapons, or whatever other strategies we want to use? We can't use Nerveskitter, of course, since we need the jaunt, and we lose the familiar, but we can throw in improved initiative and two initiative feats to at least match whatever the fighter has and have a 100% chance of winning if the wizard wins initiative.

Nitpicks with the anthropomorphic animal:
1) it's a template applied to a creature with racial HD, which wasn't allowed. And yes I know the racial HD disappears when a small creature takes a class level. just not sure that makes it legal for the parameters of this challenge
2) it has an intelligence of 11. As far as I know, that means no bonus spells. So the wizard only has one first level spell. I've not seen any lvl1 spell so far that kills the fighter outright, so the wizard needs a backup plan (maybe dropping the shield ONTO the fighter :P)
3)Flying requires a light load. Which isn't a lot for a small creature with -6 to strength and a starting 16 won't cut it. (tower shield + spellbook + component pouch weight is 27.5 lb. carrying capacity is only 24.75lb.)

(And sidenote to anybody objecting the fighter was very much purpose-built for the challenge and the wizard wasn't. A wizard with 11 int is the epitome of being purpose-built IMHO)

Apart from that: Why wouldn't the fighter just do the same. Just hide behind his own tower shield if the wizard flies away. Heck he could even hide behind it to become effectively invisible and that's at least a guaranteed draw. [rant] Aaagh I HATE towershield RAW [/end rant] Hiding shenanigans aside: the wizard would struggle about just as much with overcoming total cover as the fighter would.

It seems like the flying conjuration tower shield wizard has a more positive than not win rate (just over 50%). I don't think there's much the fighter can do about that except optimize for grapple to make sure their winrate stays at 45% or higher if they win initiative, or optimize for initiative to ensure their overall winrate goes up.

The flying wizard beats the normal reach lockdown builds.

Reach lockdown builds beat normal conjuration wizards pretty often, and normal wizards somewhat often.

Normal conjuration wizards beat fighters without reach/combat reflexes.

Overall, non-conjuration specialist wizards tend to win initiative more often than fighters, and fighters who don't have willing deformity / deformity (madness) will go down to the color sprays and whatnot more often than not.
As per my objections above, I'm not sure I agree with the flying wizard statistics just yet, but I do think that theorizing this long enough we would end up with no wizard build being able to beat all fighter builds, and no fighter build being able to beat all wizard builds. At which point this becomes a bit like a 'magic the gathering' tournament where players select decks specifically designed to combat the current meta. Of course in doing so they then change the meta, so people have to come up with new ways to beat the meta.. etc, etc....

And if this was MTG: tower shields would certainly get banned, for making the show boring with endless draws. (Ok, really done with my rant now..)

RSGA

2020-07-12, 06:41 PM

If you're concerned that Mage Slayer or similar abilities might be in play, it would probably be worth accepting the possibility of a failed spell and just using a normal Light Shield to enable this - it's only 5% failure odds, which is still a huge improvement over your odds of losing if you let the Fighter take a swing at you .. actually, the DMG2 armor templates would be perfect here. Make it Feycraft or Githcraft and enjoy your ASF 0 Light Shield. It does require you to have shield proficiency, which for a standard Wizard is going to require spending another feat or finding some odd racial choice that can give you that.

It's more just really lazy editing on my part because I just wanted a quick minimal books answer to the maths based randomness that Doctor Despair was tabulating, and then I saw the grappling stuff when I went to refresh and make sure I hadn't missed anything. At that point I just went quick and dirty searching without much regards for changing the previous stuff.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-12, 07:10 PM

Nitpicks with the anthropomorphic animal:
1) it's a template applied to a creature with racial HD, which wasn't allowed. And yes I know the racial HD disappears when a small creature takes a class level. just not sure that makes it legal for the parameters of this challenge
2) it has an intelligence of 11. As far as I know, that means no bonus spells. So the wizard only has one first level spell. I've not seen any lvl1 spell so far that kills the fighter outright, so the wizard needs a backup plan (maybe dropping the shield ONTO the fighter :P)
3)Flying requires a light load. Which isn't a lot for a small creature with -6 to strength and a starting 16 won't cut it. (tower shield + spellbook + component pouch weight is 27.5 lb. carrying capacity is only 24.75lb.)

I'll acknowledge 1; is there another source of flight? Is there another source of flight the wizard could get to keep this strategy viable? Racial prefered, or hour long or longer buff?

As for 2, the wizard could shoot a bow, and level 0s might be enough over time, or perhaps level 0s with a Reserves of Strength'd magic missle as a finisher? That'd mean no Mage Armor, of course.

For three... yeah, the load would be an issue for a small creature. They could take an initiative penalty to have 18 strength, which ironically gives them better odds in the grapple, too. Bringing a bow would complicate things, although a Reserves of Power'd Magic Massile, as said above, would do like 8-20 damage, average 14, so the level 0 spells would just need to do a little bit more.

Apart from that: Why wouldn't the fighter just do the same. Just hide behind his own tower shield if the wizard flies away. Heck he could even hide behind it to become effectively invisible and that's at least a guaranteed draw. [rant] Aaagh I HATE towershield RAW [/end rant] Hiding shenanigans aside: the wizard would struggle about just as much with overcoming total cover as the fighter would.

That's a good point, but it's less effective against magic. If the wizard relies on level 0 spells and one magic missile, they can target the tower shield instead of the wizard and get their damage off that way.

As per my objections above, I'm not sure I agree with the flying wizard statistics just yet, but I do think that theorizing this long enough we would end up with no wizard build being able to beat all fighter builds, and no fighter build being able to beat all wizard builds. At which point this becomes a bit like a 'magic the gathering' tournament where players select decks specifically designed to combat the current meta. Of course in doing so they then change the meta, so people have to come up with new ways to beat the meta.. etc, etc....

And if this was MTG: tower shields would certainly get banned, for making the show boring with endless draws. (Ok, really done with my rant now..)

I absolutely agree that that's what it's coming down to. We could probably optimize a ranged fighter to battle this creature more effectively, or something like that, but that fighter would lose to other creatures more often than not. I think the matchup is generally favorable to the wizard overall based on this discussion though. By level 6, I'm fairly certain the wizard's odds get better, as I don't think the fighter gains much relative power, although at level 3, with Mage Slayer, things might be a little spicier.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-12, 07:54 PM

I'll acknowledge 1; is there another source of flight? Is there another source of flight the wizard could get to keep this strategy viable? Racial prefered, or hour long or longer buff?

As far as I know, the only 3.5 rules legal forms of true flight at level 1 are via Anthropomorphic Bat, Anthropomorphic Raven, Sparrow Hengeyokai, and Crane Hengeyokai. The raven has the worst strength penalty of these.

Quertus

2020-07-12, 09:37 PM

Next dumb question: why, when the conversation turned to "flying form with a (cross)bow" did the Fighter not just say, "mine's better"?

Related question: what is the range on the Wizard's spells?

Doctor Despair

2020-07-12, 09:47 PM

Next dumb question: why, when the conversation turned to "flying form with a (cross)bow" did the Fighter not just say, "mine's better"?

Related question: what is the range on the Wizard's spells?

A fighter with 14 hp and a wizard with, being generous, half hp, engaging in a ranged battle might err in favor of the fighter. There is a disadvantage for the fighter in that, if we have that ranged, flying wizard, they can use a spell to break parity on it. Once the wizard is out of the fighter's threatened range, and the fighter has no easy way to get closer, the wizard can use that level 1 spell to break parity if it does consistent, large-enough damage and avoids AC. However, the fighter could use a tower shield to just avoid all ranged attacks and draw, except that the wizard also has level 0 spells. Reserve of Strength and magic missile let the wizard do a no-save, no-miss 8-20 damage, so if the wizard can do at least like 6 damage with level 0 spells like acid splash or something, they could finish the fighter with the missiles.

I suppose that does mean the wizard would have to not go down in the meantime, so we should probably discuss the fighter with a bow versus the wizard whose game-plan is to fly up and attack. However, we're starting to get stat-hungry at that point; the fighter can't have an 18 in strength, an 18 in dex, and an 18 in con. That means that this fighter will necessarily be worse at grappling... Probably still better than the small, strength-deficit flying wizard though, but it does tank the fighter's chances in that matchup in the event they go first. If the numbers add up for the ranged matchup, it might be worth it though, in terms of overall win-percentage.

For range: at least 25 feet, I'd think, for the most part. The wizard needs to be able to be 25 feet away in order to beat the hypothetical matchup with a spiked-chain AOO monster.

Twurps

2020-07-13, 03:07 AM

RSGA

2020-07-13, 04:00 AM

Being stunned for a round while flying (using reserves of strength) can cause death by falling so not sure if that's really a win. But let's assume the wizard knows it's 'do or die' time, (Sounds reasonable if your accepting to get stunned) in which case he should probably fly down before firing. so problem solved.

That just leaves the issue that total cover from a tower shield thwarts even magic missile. So I still think fighter has at least a draw here.

Magic Missile's a Targeted spell so it can hit not just the Fighter using the Tower Shield but up to five Fighters using Tower Shields. Now if you want a common spell the Tower can work against, it's Explosive Runes. One it's probably supposed to work against but does not, Fireball. Unless you go with the box interpretation or can properly work a Delay.

Twurps

2020-07-13, 09:12 AM

Magic Missile's a Targeted spell so it can hit not just the Fighter using the Tower Shield but up to five Fighters using Tower Shields. Now if you want a common spell the Tower can work against, it's Explosive Runes. One it's probably supposed to work against but does not, Fireball. Unless you go with the box interpretation or can properly work a Delay.
Let's look at magic missile:

The missile strikes unerringly, even if the target is in melee combat or has less than total cover or total concealment.
emphasis mine

and now at tower shield

you can instead use it as total cover
emphasis mine

So no: the wizard can't hit the fighter who's hiding behind his shield.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-13, 10:31 AM

Let's look at magic missile:

emphasis mine

and now at tower shield

emphasis mine

So no: the wizard can't hit the fighter who's hiding behind his shield.

The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding.

Would not the specific text for tower shields (that they provide no cover against targeted spells) overcome the general rule that magic missile cannot affect people with cover?

Twurps

2020-07-13, 10:46 AM

Would not the specific text for tower shields (that they provide no cover against targeted spells) overcome the general rule that magic missile cannot affect people with cover?

Wow! how did I miss that for like forever! Never mind then, magic missile does work (except maybe when the fighter uses the total cover to then hide. But that's a piece of raw I refuse to use)

So basically for wizard we're looking for: A way to fly at lvl 1 without being an anthropomorphic animal.
For fighter we're looking for: A way to get nerveskitter or any other usefull way of spending an immediate action (Quertus mentioned this being a possibility, I'm not aware of any).
And just in case we do find a way for the wizard to get airborne: a way to combat magic missile? I don't know of any.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-13, 11:02 AM

Wow! how did I miss that for like forever! Never mind then, magic missile does work (except maybe when the fighter uses the total cover to then hide. But that's a piece of raw I refuse to use)

So basically for wizard we're looking for: A way to fly at lvl 1 without being an anthropomorphic animal.
For fighter we're looking for: A way to get nerveskitter or any other usefull way of spending an immediate action (Quertus mentioned this being a possibility, I'm not aware of any).
And just in case we do find a way for the wizard to get airborne: a way to combat magic missile? I don't know of any.

Technically, any way the wizard has to fly works for the fighter. I'm just not sure what that would be.

It's also possible that a fighter with a bow would out-damage the wizard trying to slap the fighter with level 0 spells. The fighter probably only needs to land 1 or 2 shots; the wizard will presumably need to use a few level 0 spells to ensure the magic missile kills.

emeraldstreak

2020-07-13, 01:40 PM

And just in case we do find a way for the wizard to get airborne: a way to combat magic missile? I don't know of any.

For one feat the Fighter can take a dragonmarked feat that allows using Shield 1/day.

With WBL, there's a brooch that counters Magic Missile, and of course scrolls of Shield can be UMD'd.

Twurps

2020-07-13, 02:21 PM

For one feat the Fighter can take a dragonmarked feat that allows using Shield 1/day.

With WBL, there's a brooch that counters Magic Missile, and of course scrolls of Shield can be UMD'd.

Oh! shield would be nice.
if you mean the brooch of shielding, that one's out of reach at lvl1, at 1500GP, but well within reach at lvl3.

additionally: means of flight can also be obtained for a simple feat: Animal devotion gives you a fly speed for 1 minute a day.
downside for the fighter: another feat in his feat-starved build. downside for the wizard: swift action activation.

rel

2020-07-15, 02:19 AM

Hello again, the detailed statistical analysis continues.

For those playing at home, I've decided to start with builds I can reasonably expect to see at the table and test them against one another.

Further, I excluded abrupt jaunt because it required rules adjudication.

results were interesting with wizard not coming out on top as often as I'd have expected.

Today I'll be addressing the issue of abrupt jaunt. Specifically that the GM needs to rule on how it works.

I considered a lot of rulings but decided to focus on just 2:

(1) abrupt jaunt is a perfect defence. wizard can talk their way out of flat footedness and perfectly dodge any attack

(2) flat footed stops abrupt jaunt but if activated, abrupt jaunt can dodge any attack

This ignores a lot of the common but less effective rulings such as 'Abrupt jaunt only dodges half the time' and 'abrupt jaunt doesn't stop you getting stabbed, you teleport then fall apart as fighter finishes sheathing their sword.' But just these two already give a lot of insight.

The only way fighter wins under option 1 is by saving against both castings of colourspray. This at least makes the maths easy.
Fighter (will save -1): 6% chance of winning
Fighter (will save +4): 25% chance of winning

Under the second scenario the fighter can either win initiative and get the kill or weather the spells. This means I need to break out my probability trees.
fighter (+2 init, -1 will): 46 % chance of winning
fighter (+6 init, -1 will): 58% chance of winning
fighter (+2 init, +4 will): 65% chance of winning

So there you go, even if wizard can talk their way out of being flat footed a bog standard fighter with iron will and a reasonable wis bonus can pull out a win 1/4 of the time.
Without that frankly generous ruling fighter can gain the advantage with either high initiative or a good will save and even your standard nothing special at all fighter still has near coin flip odds of winning.

Quertus

2020-07-15, 03:25 AM

Further, I excluded abrupt jaunt because it required rules adjudication.

Today I'll be addressing the issue of abrupt jaunt. Specifically that the GM needs to rule on how it works.

I considered a lot of rulings but decided to focus on just 2:

(1) abrupt jaunt is a perfect defence. wizard can talk their way out of flat footedness and perfectly dodge any attack

(2) flat footed stops abrupt jaunt but if activated, abrupt jaunt can dodge any attack

This ignores a lot

Like the ruling that it only works if it takes you out of range - which, by my reading of the thread, was the one we were working under?

Option 1 isn't worth considering to begin with, and certainly not when only looking at builds that might appear at a table.

Under the second scenario the fighter can either win initiative and get the kill or weather the spells. This means I need to break out my probability trees.
fighter (+2 init, -1 will): 46 % chance of winning
fighter (+6 init, -1 will): 58% chance of winning
fighter (+2 init, +4 will): 65% chance of winning

So there you go, even if wizard can talk their way out of being flat footed a bog standard fighter with iron will and a reasonable wis bonus can pull out a win 1/4 of the time.
Without that frankly generous ruling fighter can gain the advantage with either high initiative or a good will save and even your standard nothing special at all fighter still has near coin flip odds of winning.

Curious that you only have a single Wizard - were the "multiple Wizard strategies/builds" only in effect as of level 3+? Or was there only one Wizard build that you deemed "likely to appear at a table"?

Calthropstu

2020-07-15, 09:28 AM

please remember, the likelihood of a random wizard having COMPLETELY useless spells prepared (such as sleep vs an elven fighter) is rather high. This scenario has pitted Shrodinger's wizard vs Schrodinger's fighter. Reality would be far different. Vs our schrodinger's fighter, could you imagine with sleep prepared instead of color spray and without jaunt? It would be an instant massacre.

Fact remains: Schrodinger's lvl 1 fighter beats Schrodinger's lvl 1 wizard more often than the reverse.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-15, 12:56 PM

Fact remains: Schrodinger's lvl 1 fighter beats Schrodinger's lvl 1 wizard more often than the reverse.

I suppose it depends on what builds from the discussion you're discussing. I don't think that's accurate.

If the wizard goes first, they can cast spells unless the fighter has combat reflexes (feat requirement). However, this normally requires that the fighter wield a weapon.

If the wizard wants to cast through the AOO, they can Abrupt Jaunt or just have a high AC.

Hitting the wizard is tough turn 0, because the wizard can hold a tower shield and use mage armor, which gives them 18 AC flat-footed before size bonuses or anything, or a 65% miss chance even if the fighter goes first. If it's an AOO and the wizard isn't flat-footed, they can walk away with at least 22 AC, or an 85% miss chance. The wizard going first has an 85% chance of being able to walk away, drop the shield, and cast a spell with no AOO. That's a cumulative 56% miss chance from the fighter even if the fighter went first.

In order to defeat a conjuration focus, the fighter needs two vile feats (willing deformity and tall) and an exotic weapon proficiency (or the Exoticist class from a dragon mag). If they don't have this, the wizard has a 100% chance of porting away and casting a spell with no AOO. If they do have this, then the wizard has to walk it out and take the 85% chance.

Alternatively, the wizard could just cast defensively. With combat casting, the wizard could have as much as 4 ranks, a +4 from their con, and +4 from the class, leaving them with a 15% chance to fail their level 1 spell, or 10% chance to fail their level 0. A wizard with con maxed like this will have to sacrifice int (saves) or dex (initiative) however. It does save a level 1 spell that we would have used on mage armor, but it lowers our odds if the fighter goes first, so we probably save the feat slot.

In order to defeat the SOL level 1 spells, the fighter needs two vile feats that are not ideal (willing deformity and madness, for immunity to mind-affecting). Otherwise, the fighter (who probably dumped wisdom) has a 75% to fail their first save (DC 15, -1 from wis), or a big benefit to the wizard.

So we now have this very specific fighter (Exoticist: Combat Reflexes, Willing Deformity, Deformity (Madness), Deformity (Tall)), and we need all of those to not be at a pretty big disadvantage. The fighter has no extra feats, and the wizard has used no feats (except maybe combat casting), so initiative advantage goes to the wizard, too, deepending that lead.

So now the wizard has a 56% chance (fighter went first, wizard AC tanked), or an 85% chance (wizard went first, AC tanked to cast) of casting a spell, depending on inititiative. They saved their jaunt, if they have it, because why not save it. The wizard can dump intelligence, because they're probably using damage-roll spells, not SOL/SOS spells. If the fighter is using dragon material, then the wizard can use a level 0 spell with fell drain/easy metamagic to cause a negative level from a first level spell-slot. However, let's say the fighter dipped a feat for the proficiency. Maybe they gave up madness, knowing the wizard wouldn't prepare a mind-affecting spell, or gave up tall, knowing the wizard wouldn't have a conjuration focus. As the fighter isn't using third party/dragon material, the wizard won't, either.

This puts us in the situation where a conjuration wizard with Color Spray prepared will just straight-up win the matchup, I think we decided, unless the fighter gives up Combat Reflexes, which gives the wizard a way better level 1. I suppose the flip-side to that is that the fighter just wins if they make their save. Still, if the wizard goes first, with no AOO, that's just a 75% winrate, or more if they use their feats to pump the save. It's also a bog-standard wizard-build to boot. This probably means the fighter can't have combat reflexes without losing to a conjuration wizard or just losing to a generic wizard who prepared Color Spray (or both). However, as the reflexes are only relevant on that first turn (if the wizard goes first), that actually only increases the wizard's winrate a little bit (divide it by 0.85), so now the wizard has a 56% of a chance to cast their spell if the fighter went first, or 100% if the wizard went first (instead of AC tanking).

The wizard has to actually take out the fighter with that first spell for it to end there. Reserves of Power + Magic Missile deals 4d4 + 4 damage to the fighter, 8-20 (average 14). The fighter only has 14 hp, but as he'd be left up, that'd probably be a win to the fighter while the wizard was stunned for 3 rounds. That's more than a 50% chance the fighter can walk up and demolish the wizard with at least one of three follow-up attacks.

However, if the wizard softened the fighter up a bit first, things could be different. Magic Missile does a minimum of 8 damage, so if the wizard can deal 7 damage with their level 0 spells and other abilities, the Magic Missile could be a safe finisher. Those spells will do 1d3 on a touch attack (average 2), so not quite enough on average. Additionally, the fighter would get an AOO on each of those spells, and as the wizard dropped their tower shield, that would be bad news for them.

Toss the Reserves of Power combo for a moment, and we return to Substroke. 2d6 (average 7) nonlethal damage with a level 1 slot is less than magic missile, but it prompts a save to fatigue, which is good, and leaves us with two feat slots to do the Precocious Apprentice/Fiery Burst combo. Fighter with 18 dex has a +4 to save, but on a failed save the fighter takes an average of 2 damage, which would top off the fighter after 4 uses. The fighter still gets to repeat their attack four additional times though, which is... not ideal. Still leans fighter.

So we decided that racial forms of flight are all templated or third party, but in a recent thread I believe it was pointed out that players can visit a magical location (Eyes of the Lich Queen, or something like that?) to get a free abberant dragonmark for an SLA. We could get Inflict Light to do 1d8+1 on a touch attack, or Burning Hands for 1d4 reflex half...

Alright, but what if the wizard wasn't a conjuration specialist, and the fighter gave up their reach anyway (losing deformity (tall) for EWP). After all, how could the fighter know the wizard's specialty (apart from us making super meta decisions in both character's builds)? Could the familiar do anything? I'm not sure -- I'm not familiar enough with familars (haha) or wizards to know that sort of obscure thing.

I suppose the wizard could use Backbiter to make the fighter hit themselves once, in place of a damage spell. The fighter would probably do 2d4 +4, or average of 9. However, the wizard still has to do 6 damage with their three level 0s, which they can technically do. However, the odds look very bad for them needing to avoid three more AOOs (possibly - defensive casting allowing) and three more regular attacks.

So the tentative conclusion I'd suggest here is that the wizard needs both level 1 spells to win this matchup - period - without the use of flight from a race or template. This changes the beginning of the match significantly.

...

If the wizard goes first, they can cast spells unless the fighter has combat reflexes - which we decided they didn't. So that's a 100% chance success.

If the wizard wants to cast through the AOOs in their second turn (or first, if the fighter goes first), they can Abrupt Jaunt, defensively cast, or just have a high AC.

The wizard can hold a tower shield, which gives them 14 AC flat-footed before size bonuses or anything, or a 45% miss chance if the fighter goes first. The wizard's normal AC will also be a 14 once they drop the tower shield, or an 18 with it (if the fighter prepares an action to attack the wizard to prevent an abrupt jaunt, causing the wizard to hold it while they walk away). Thus, it isn't in the fighter's interest to waste their first attack on a preparation, as the wizard can't avoid it anyway, and their AC only goes up if they wait to use it on a prepared action.

Defensive casting might be more viable at this point. With combat casting, the wizard could have as much as 4 ranks, a +4 from their con, and +4 from the class, leaving them with a 15% chance to fail their level 1 spell, or 10% chance to fail their level 0. A wizard with con maxed like this will have to sacrifice int (saves, abrupt jaunts (irrelevant)) or dex (initiative, ac) however.

So now the wizard has a 21% chance (fighter went first, wizard AC tanked), a 39% chance (fighter went first, wizard combat casted defensively), or a 100% chance (wizard goes first) of casting a spell, depending on inititiative. They saved their jaunt, if they have it, because why not save it. The wizard can dump intelligence, because they're probably using damage-roll spells, not SOL/SOS spells, for stat consolidation.

Backbiter ironically did the most damage (2d4 +4, 6-12, average 9) next to Reserves of Power Magic Missile (4d4 +4, average 14). If the wizard takes their second feat as Reserves of Power, they could down the fighter in two spells more often than not, but they'd take one more standard-action attack (negated with Backbiter) and have to cast defensively one more time (15% chance of failure). That leads to the wizard matchup looking like:

Wizard goes first: Backbiter (100% success rate), block attack with Backbiter, cast defensively (85% success rate), hopefully deal a cumulative 15 damage (6d4 +8, 14-32, average 23, more than an 84% success rate)

Fighter goes first: Attack (55% success rate, ends matchup if successful), wizard has to cast defensively or else lose their spell (15% success rate, probably wins matchup if wizard fails, cumulative ~62% success rate), attack (lost to Backbiter), wizard has to cast defensively or else lose their spell (15% success rate, probably wins matchup if wizard fails, cumulative 68% success rate).

Assuming equal initiative, that the wizard takes a conjuration focus to prevent the fighter from trading out Deformity (Tall) for Combat Reflexes, it seems like the matchups are thus:

Psychic Min-Max Schrodinger's Level 1 Wizard: 58%

Psychic Min-Max Schrodinger's Level 1 Fighter: 42%

This, of course, didn't allow for the fighter spending their turn one attack as a melee touch attack to try to initiate a grapple. There is an alternative fighter who focuses entirely on grappling and initiative to try to ensure they go first and lock down the wizard. However, the wizard would then gain access to Nerveskitter, so I think the fighter actually wins initiative slightly less often, and the fighter straight-up loses if the wizard goes first, so I don't actually think this helps the matchup very much.

[However, it is of note that the wizard needs to have specifically Backbiter, Magic Missile, and the feats Combat Casting and Reserves of Power in order for this to work. A wizard missing one of those elements will see their win rate drop significantly.]

Calthropstu

2020-07-15, 06:50 PM

I suppose it depends on what builds from the discussion you're discussing. I don't think that's accurate.

If the wizard goes first, they can cast spells unless the fighter has combat reflexes (feat requirement). However, this normally requires that the fighter wield a weapon.

If the wizard wants to cast through the AOO, they can Abrupt Jaunt or just have a high AC.

Hitting the wizard is tough turn 0, because the wizard can hold a tower shield and use mage armor, which gives them 18 AC flat-footed before size bonuses or anything, or a 65% miss chance even if the fighter goes first. If it's an AOO and the wizard isn't flat-footed, they can walk away with at least 22 AC, or an 85% miss chance. The wizard going first has an 85% chance of being able to walk away, drop the shield, and cast a spell with no AOO. That's a cumulative 56% miss chance from the fighter even if the fighter went first.

In order to defeat a conjuration focus, the fighter needs two vile feats (willing deformity and tall) and an exotic weapon proficiency (or the Exoticist class from a dragon mag). If they don't have this, the wizard has a 100% chance of porting away and casting a spell with no AOO. If they do have this, then the wizard has to walk it out and take the 85% chance.

Alternatively, the wizard could just cast defensively. With combat casting, the wizard could have as much as 4 ranks, a +4 from their con, and +4 from the class, leaving them with a 15% chance to fail their level 1 spell, or 10% chance to fail their level 0. A wizard with con maxed like this will have to sacrifice int (saves) or dex (initiative) however. It does save a level 1 spell that we would have used on mage armor, but it lowers our odds if the fighter goes first, so we probably save the feat slot.

In order to defeat the SOL level 1 spells, the fighter needs two vile feats that are not ideal (willing deformity and madness, for immunity to mind-affecting). Otherwise, the fighter (who probably dumped wisdom) has a 75% to fail their first save (DC 15, -1 from wis), or a big benefit to the wizard.

So we now have this very specific fighter (Exoticist: Combat Reflexes, Willing Deformity, Deformity (Madness), Deformity (Tall)), and we need all of those to not be at a pretty big disadvantage. The fighter has no extra feats, and the wizard has used no feats (except maybe combat casting), so initiative advantage goes to the wizard, too, deepending that lead.

So now the wizard has a 56% chance (fighter went first, wizard AC tanked), or an 85% chance (wizard went first, AC tanked to cast) of casting a spell, depending on inititiative. They saved their jaunt, if they have it, because why not save it. The wizard can dump intelligence, because they're probably using damage-roll spells, not SOL/SOS spells. If the fighter is using dragon material, then the wizard can use a level 0 spell with fell drain/easy metamagic to cause a negative level from a first level spell-slot. However, let's say the fighter dipped a feat for the proficiency. Maybe they gave up madness, knowing the wizard wouldn't prepare a mind-affecting spell, or gave up tall, knowing the wizard wouldn't have a conjuration focus. As the fighter isn't using third party/dragon material, the wizard won't, either.

This puts us in the situation where a conjuration wizard with Color Spray prepared will just straight-up win the matchup, I think we decided, unless the fighter gives up Combat Reflexes, which gives the wizard a way better level 1. I suppose the flip-side to that is that the fighter just wins if they make their save. Still, if the wizard goes first, with no AOO, that's just a 75% winrate, or more if they use their feats to pump the save. It's also a bog-standard wizard-build to boot. This probably means the fighter can't have combat reflexes without losing to a conjuration wizard or just losing to a generic wizard who prepared Color Spray (or both). However, as the reflexes are only relevant on that first turn (if the wizard goes first), that actually only increases the wizard's winrate a little bit (divide it by 0.85), so now the wizard has a 56% of a chance to cast their spell if the fighter went first, or 100% if the wizard went first (instead of AC tanking).

The wizard has to actually take out the fighter with that first spell for it to end there. Reserves of Power + Magic Missile deals 4d4 + 4 damage to the fighter, 8-20 (average 14). The fighter only has 14 hp, but as he'd be left up, that'd probably be a win to the fighter while the wizard was stunned for 3 rounds. That's more than a 50% chance the fighter can walk up and demolish the wizard with at least one of three follow-up attacks.

However, if the wizard softened the fighter up a bit first, things could be different. Magic Missile does a minimum of 8 damage, so if the wizard can deal 7 damage with their level 0 spells and other abilities, the Magic Missile could be a safe finisher. Those spells will do 1d3 on a touch attack (average 2), so not quite enough on average. Additionally, the fighter would get an AOO on each of those spells, and as the wizard dropped their tower shield, that would be bad news for them.

Toss the Reserves of Power combo for a moment, and we return to Substroke. 2d6 (average 7) nonlethal damage with a level 1 slot is less than magic missile, but it prompts a save to fatigue, which is good, and leaves us with two feat slots to do the Precocious Apprentice/Fiery Burst combo. Fighter with 18 dex has a +4 to save, but on a failed save the fighter takes an average of 2 damage, which would top off the fighter after 4 uses. The fighter still gets to repeat their attack four additional times though, which is... not ideal. Still leans fighter.

So we decided that racial forms of flight are all templated or third party, but in a recent thread I believe it was pointed out that players can visit a magical location (Eyes of the Lich Queen, or something like that?) to get a free abberant dragonmark for an SLA. We could get Inflict Light to do 1d8+1 on a touch attack, or Burning Hands for 1d4 reflex half...

Alright, but what if the wizard wasn't a conjuration specialist, and the fighter gave up their reach anyway (losing deformity (tall) for EWP). After all, how could the fighter know the wizard's specialty (apart from us making super meta decisions in both character's builds)? Could the familiar do anything? I'm not sure -- I'm not familiar enough with familars (haha) or wizards to know that sort of obscure thing.

I suppose the wizard could use Backbiter to make the fighter hit themselves once, in place of a damage spell. The fighter would probably do 2d4 +4, or average of 9. However, the wizard still has to do 6 damage with their three level 0s, which they can technically do. However, the odds look very bad for them needing to avoid three more AOOs (possibly - defensive casting allowing) and three more regular attacks.

So the tentative conclusion I'd suggest here is that the wizard needs both level 1 spells to win this matchup - period - without the use of flight from a race or template. This changes the beginning of the match significantly.

...

If the wizard goes first, they can cast spells unless the fighter has combat reflexes - which we decided they didn't. So that's a 100% chance success.

If the wizard wants to cast through the AOOs in their second turn (or first, if the fighter goes first), they can Abrupt Jaunt, defensively cast, or just have a high AC.

The wizard can hold a tower shield, which gives them 14 AC flat-footed before size bonuses or anything, or a 45% miss chance if the fighter goes first. The wizard's normal AC will also be a 14 once they drop the tower shield, or an 18 with it (if the fighter prepares an action to attack the wizard to prevent an abrupt jaunt, causing the wizard to hold it while they walk away). Thus, it isn't in the fighter's interest to waste their first attack on a preparation, as the wizard can't avoid it anyway, and their AC only goes up if they wait to use it on a prepared action.

Defensive casting might be more viable at this point. With combat casting, the wizard could have as much as 4 ranks, a +4 from their con, and +4 from the class, leaving them with a 15% chance to fail their level 1 spell, or 10% chance to fail their level 0. A wizard with con maxed like this will have to sacrifice int (saves, abrupt jaunts (irrelevant)) or dex (initiative, ac) however.

So now the wizard has a 21% chance (fighter went first, wizard AC tanked), a 39% chance (fighter went first, wizard combat casted defensively), or a 100% chance (wizard goes first) of casting a spell, depending on inititiative. They saved their jaunt, if they have it, because why not save it. The wizard can dump intelligence, because they're probably using damage-roll spells, not SOL/SOS spells, for stat consolidation.

Backbiter ironically did the most damage (2d4 +4, 6-12, average 9) next to Reserves of Power Magic Missile (4d4 +4, average 14). If the wizard takes their second feat as Reserves of Power, they could down the fighter in two spells more often than not, but they'd take one more standard-action attack (negated with Backbiter) and have to cast defensively one more time (15% chance of failure). That leads to the wizard matchup looking like:

Wizard goes first: Backbiter (100% success rate), block attack with Backbiter, cast defensively (85% success rate), hopefully deal a cumulative 15 damage (6d4 +8, 14-32, average 23, more than an 84% success rate)

Fighter goes first: Attack (55% success rate, ends matchup if successful), wizard has to cast defensively or else lose their spell (15% success rate, probably wins matchup if wizard fails, cumulative ~62% success rate), attack (lost to Backbiter), wizard has to cast defensively or else lose their spell (15% success rate, probably wins matchup if wizard fails, cumulative 68% success rate).

Assuming equal initiative, that the wizard takes a conjuration focus to prevent the fighter from trading out Deformity (Tall) for Combat Reflexes, it seems like the matchups are thus:

Psychic Min-Max Schrodinger's Level 1 Wizard: 58%

Psychic Min-Max Schrodinger's Level 1 Fighter: 42%

This, of course, didn't allow for the fighter spending their turn one attack as a melee touch attack to try to initiate a grapple. There is an alternative fighter who focuses entirely on grappling and initiative to try to ensure they go first and lock down the wizard. However, the wizard would then gain access to Nerveskitter, so I think the fighter actually wins initiative slightly less often, and the fighter straight-up loses if the wizard goes first, so I don't actually think this helps the matchup very much.

[However, it is of note that the wizard needs to have specifically Backbiter, Magic Missile, and the feats Combat Casting and Reserves of Power in order for this to work. A wizard missing one of those elements will see their win rate drop significantly.]

Because the fighter has a better chance of going first than the wizard (jaunt precludes the use of nerveskitter) the fighter simply readies an action. Uses his aoo to disrupt the spell. The tower shield causes a 50% spell failure, so using that is well... silly. If the fighter goes first, juant can't activate due to flat footed. And hitting a wizard's flat footed ac? Simple. Assuming mage armor? AC 14. Our fighter needs an 8. Since he has a 2 point init bonus, we have 65% of 60% which is a 40% chance to just end it outright with the wizard never getting a turn. Now juant activates. The fighter has an aoo. We got him to 15 foot reach. Jaunt does not get away successfully. So jaunt, 5 foot step and... color spray auto fails due to out of range. Sleep fails as elf. Power Word pain? Ok. We might go down. But so will you. Your trick with the magic missle has a 50% chance of disabling us or defeating us. That's 50% of 40%.... or 20%. Then you fail the rest automatically. With a 40% initial victory chance, you're sunk. Combat reflexes wins this, flat out.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-15, 07:23 PM

Because the fighter has a better chance of going first than the wizard (jaunt precludes the use of nerveskitter)

Does he? Neither of them have free feats for Improved Initiative and they could both have 18 dex. They'd have identical initiative, right? And you're right that the wizard can't use Nerveskitter, but that's because both their level 1 spells have to be prepared for other spells, not because they need the immediate action. They don't actually jaunt in this whole matchup, but they need to be a conjuration wizard so that the fighter needs to have a spiked whip and deformity (tall).

the fighter simply readies an action. Uses his aoo to disrupt the spell.

That's true if the fighter goes first, but there's no advantage to doing so. The fighter could attack the wizard with 14 AC, killing if he hits -- or he could ready an action to attack if the wizard casts a spell. At that point, it is the wizard's turn.

Now with 18 AC, the wizard can try to walk out of the fighter's range, triggering one AOO with 18 AC. Then, having gotten out of the fighter's range, the wizard can drop the tower shield as a free action and cast without needing to make the defensive casting check.

Now, this is only because the fighter readied the readied attack on "if the wizard casts a spell." If the fighter changes it to "if the wizard takes any action," then the wizard would take a five-foot step and take a readied attack at 18 AC (again, instead of their 14-AC flat-footed AC); then, the wizard could drop the shield as a free action and defensively cast. This actually makes the math worse for the fighter, because he had to make his one attack against an 18 AC wizard instead of a 14 AC wizard when he was flat-footed.

Overall, the math either doesn't change if the fighter readies an action, or gets worse, as the fighter gets the same number of attacks against a target who is no longer flat-footed.

The tower shield causes a 50% spell failure, so using that is well... silly.

Yeah, the wizard has to drop the shield before they cast spells, for sure. The tower shield is there so that the wizard's AC is 14 if the fighter goes first, and 18 if the wizard has to walk out of the fighter's range due to readied actions or something.

If the fighter goes first, juant can't activate due to flat footed. And hitting a wizard's flat footed ac? Simple. Assuming mage armor? AC 14. Our fighter needs an 8.

So the wizard's flat-footed is 14AC with the tower shield, not Mage Armor, but the number to-hit would 9, right? 9+5? I just realized that in my initial calculations, I used +4 for the fighter, not +5, as I forgot to add their BAB, so it should be a 60% success rate, not 55% as I said originally, but why are you using +6? We don't have WBL for a masterwork weapon.

Since he has a 2 point init bonus, we have 65% of 60% which is a 40% chance to just end it outright with the wizard never getting a turn. Now juant activates. The fighter has an aoo. We got him to 15 foot reach. Jaunt does not get away successfully. So jaunt, 5 foot step and... color spray auto fails due to out of range. Sleep fails as elf. Power Word pain? Ok. We might go down. But so will you. Your trick with the magic missle has a 50% chance of disabling us or defeating us. That's 50% of 40%.... or 20%. Then you fail the rest automatically. With a 40% initial victory chance, you're sunk. Combat reflexes wins this, flat out.

Did you read the latter half of the post? So if the fighter goes first, the turns would play out like this, optimally.

Fighter wins initiative. As the wizard is flat-footed and has 14 AC instead of 18, he attacks, with a 60% success rate. If it hits, the wizard presumably goes down. If it misses, the fighter passes initiative to the wizard.

The wizard casts defensively, passing the check 85% of the time (failing 15% of the time). If they fail the check, they no longer have the firepower to reliably down this fighter, so the match goes to the fighter most of the time. If they pass their check, they cast Backbiter. (So of the 40% of matchups where the wizard is still in it, they now flunk out a further 15% of that, falling to 34% effectiveness).

The fighter explicitly has no knowledge of this spell's effect. They attack, and their attack turns back on them, dealing an average of 9 damage. Their turn is wasted.

The wizard casts defensively again (85% successrate, or 15% failrate) to do the Reserves of Power'd Magic Missile, dealing an average of 14 damage. This defensive casting must succeed as well, or the wizard fails more often than not. This spell also must down the fighter. On average, these two spells will deal 23 damage to the fighter's 14hp. (Of the 34% of matchups where the wizard makes it to this point, they fail a further 15% of the time, going down to 29% instead of the originally calculated 32%.)

So if the fighter goes first, they win 71% of the time.

However, if the wizard goes first, they can play it just the same way, but without needing to deal with the attack of opportunity. Remember, the fighter cannot have spiked whip proficiency and combat reflexes. The wizard would then win 84% of the time.

Assuming equal initiative, cumulatively, that results in:

Fighter Winrate: 43.5%

Wizard Winrate: 56.5%

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Edit:
For reference, the wizard needs an 11 intelligence, and this math was done with 18 con, so I suppose the most even-numbered dex the wizard could have is 16, giving the fighter a +1 initiative advantage (if the fighter has a hypothetical 18 dex, 18 strength, 18 con with some sort of superior point-buy).

So the wizard's AC would go down 1, and the wizard's initiative would go down 1... So if the wizard goes first, their winrate actually remains unchanged. If the fighter goes first and gets their one attack off, their chances actually go up to 65% off the bat, instead of 60%, which would work out to... 74.7% chance of fighter victory, rather than 71%. So final numbers change to:

Fighter Winrate: 45.4

Wizard Winrate: 54.6

^ That's with equal initiative. We can adjust this up or down for what stats the fighter chooses (e.g., if they choose higher dex and lower con, or higher con and lower dex)

A full dex fighter would then go first 55% of the time, so the final results would look something like... a mathematical translation that I'm not 100% sure how to do accurately. It'll be close.

The wizard could also bring con down to 16, and pump dex up to 18. I'm honestly not sure which one would be better because I'm not sure how to handle the math on this initiative.

It's also complicated in that I'm not sure exactly what the fighter's stats will be. The fighter definitely wants 18 strength, but do they want 18 con, or 18 dex? Dex helps them go first, but they need 18 con to survive the wizard's min damage rolls (14), and if they tank con too much, the wizard might be able to justify starting with mage armor active and just blasting the fighter with the magic missile to start with...

Calthropstu

2020-07-15, 09:02 PM

Does he? Neither of them have free feats for Improved Initiative and they could both have 18 dex. They'd have identical initiative, right? And you're right that the wizard can't use Nerveskitter, but that's because both their level 1 spells have to be prepared for other spells, not because they need the immediate action. They don't actually jaunt in this whole matchup, but they need to be a conjuration wizard so that the fighter needs to have a spiked whip and deformity (tall).

That's true if the fighter goes first, but there's no advantage to doing so. The fighter could attack the wizard with 14 AC, killing if he hits -- or he could ready an action to attack if the wizard casts a spell. At that point, it is the wizard's turn.

Now with 18 AC, the wizard can try to walk out of the fighter's range, triggering one AOO with 18 AC. Then, having gotten out of the fighter's range, the wizard can drop the tower shield as a free action and cast without needing to make the defensive casting check.

Now, this is only because the fighter readied the readied attack on "if the wizard casts a spell." If the fighter changes it to "if the wizard takes any action," then the wizard would take a five-foot step and take a readied attack at 18 AC (again, instead of their 14-AC flat-footed AC); then, the wizard could drop the shield as a free action and defensively cast. This actually makes the math worse for the fighter, because he had to make his one attack against an 18 AC wizard instead of a 14 AC wizard when he was flat-footed.

Overall, the math either doesn't change if the fighter readies an action, or gets worse, as the fighter gets the same number of attacks against a target who is no longer flat-footed.

Yeah, the wizard has to drop the shield before they cast spells, for sure. The tower shield is there so that the wizard's AC is 14 if the fighter goes first, and 18 if the wizard has to walk out of the fighter's range due to readied actions or something.

So the wizard's flat-footed is 14AC with the tower shield, not Mage Armor, but the number to-hit would 9, right? 9+5? I just realized that in my initial calculations, I used +4 for the fighter, not +5, as I forgot to add their BAB, so it should be a 60% success rate, not 55% as I said originally, but why are you using +6? We don't have WBL for a masterwork weapon.

Did you read the latter half of the post? So if the fighter goes first, the turns would play out like this, optimally.

Fighter wins initiative. As the wizard is flat-footed and has 14 AC instead of 18, he attacks, with a 60% success rate. If it hits, the wizard presumably goes down. If it misses, the fighter passes initiative to the wizard.

The wizard casts defensively, passing the check 85% of the time (failing 15% of the time). If they fail the check, they no longer have the firepower to reliably down this fighter, so the match goes to the fighter most of the time. If they pass their check, they cast Backbiter. (So of the 40% of matchups where the wizard is still in it, they now flunk out a further 15% of that, falling to 34% effectiveness).

The fighter explicitly has no knowledge of this spell's effect. They attack, and their attack turns back on them, dealing an average of 9 damage. Their turn is wasted.

The wizard casts defensively again (85% successrate, or 15% failrate) to do the Reserves of Power'd Magic Missile, dealing an average of 14 damage. This defensive casting must succeed as well, or the wizard fails more often than not. This spell also must down the fighter. On average, these two spells will deal 23 damage to the fighter's 14hp. (Of the 34% of matchups where the wizard makes it to this point, they fail a further 15% of the time, going down to 29% instead of the originally calculated 32%.)

So if the fighter goes first, they win 71% of the time.

However, if the wizard goes first, they can play it just the same way, but without needing to deal with the attack of opportunity. Remember, the fighter cannot have spiked whip proficiency and combat reflexes. The wizard would then win 84% of the time.

Assuming equal initiative, cumulatively, that results in:

Fighter Winrate: 43.5%

Wizard Winrate: 56.5%

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Edit:
For reference, the wizard needs an 11 intelligence, and this math was done with 18 con, so I suppose the most even-numbered dex the wizard could have is 16, giving the fighter a +1 initiative advantage (if the fighter has a hypothetical 18 dex, 18 strength, 18 con with some sort of superior point-buy).

So the wizard's AC would go down 1, and the wizard's initiative would go down 1... So if the wizard goes first, their winrate actually remains unchanged. If the fighter goes first and gets their one attack off, their chances actually go up to 65% off the bat, instead of 60%, which would work out to... 74.7% chance of fighter victory, rather than 71%. So final numbers change to:

Fighter Winrate: 45.4

Wizard Winrate: 54.6

^ That's with equal initiative. We can adjust this up or down for what stats the fighter chooses (e.g., if they choose higher dex and lower con, or higher con and lower dex)

A full dex fighter would then go first 55% of the time, so the final results would look something like... a mathematical translation that I'm not 100% sure how to do accurately. It'll be close.

The wizard could also bring con down to 16, and pump dex up to 18. I'm honestly not sure which one would be better because I'm not sure how to handle the math on this initiative.

It's also complicated in that I'm not sure exactly what the fighter's stats will be. The fighter definitely wants 18 strength, but do they want 18 con, or 18 dex? Dex helps them go first, but they need 18 con to survive the wizard's min damage rolls (14), and if they tank con too much, the wizard might be able to justify starting with mage armor active and just blasting the fighter with the magic missile to start with...

The dc to cast defensively is 16. With 4 ranks and +2 con bonus (max... less is more likely) your chance of success is 50%. Where are you getting an 85% success rate?

Doctor Despair

2020-07-15, 09:18 PM

Alternatively, the wizard could just cast defensively. With combat casting, the wizard could have as much as 4 ranks, a +4 from their con, and +4 from the class, leaving them with a 15% chance to fail their level 1 spell, or 10% chance to fail their level 0. A wizard with con maxed like this will have to sacrifice int (saves) or dex (initiative) however. It does save a level 1 spell that we would have used on mage armor, but it lowers our odds if the fighter goes first, so we probably save the feat slot.

DC 16

4 ranks, Combat Casting (+4), 18 con (+4) = 12 bonus

Relative roll needed to pass: 4

3/20 are fails, or 15%

Edit:
As is quoted in the post, the sample wizard here has 12 or 14 int, 16 dex, and 18 con. They could swap the dex and con, raising the fail chance on defensive casting to 20%, but I'm not sure if that's optimal in exchange for the initiative boost. It might be.

The 12 int is needed to get a bonus spell. It doesn't hurt us to have it that low, though, because none of the spells we use here scale with int, and we don't use abrupt jaunt. 14 int would give us two uses, and we have the stats to spare, so why not.

Calthropstu

2020-07-15, 09:28 PM

DC 16

4 ranks, Combat Casting (+4), 18 con (+4) = 12 bonus

Relative roll needed to pass: 4

3/20 are fails, or 15%

Edit:
As is quoted in the post, the sample wizard here has 12 or 14 int, 16 dex, and 18 con. They could swap the dex and con, raising the fail chance on defensive casting to 20%, but I'm not sure if that's optimal in exchange for the initiative boost. It might be.

The 12 int is needed to get a bonus spell. It doesn't hurt us to have it that low, though, because none of the spells we use here scale with int, and we don't use abrupt jaunt. 14 int would give us two uses, and we have the stats to spare, so why not.

Where are you getting 18 con from? I thought the stats were 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10. If you're going human for the extra feat, you don't HAVE an 18.

Edit: nevermind. There was zero discussion on stat limitation.

So my elf fighter has 18 str, 20 dex, 18 int, 16 con, 18 int, 18 wis, 18 cha...

Doctor Despair

2020-07-15, 09:33 PM

Where are you getting 18 con from? I thought the stats were 16, 15, 14, 13, 12, 10. If you're going human for the extra feat, you don't HAVE an 18.

I was using 32 point buy.

Str 8
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 8

Where did you get those stats come from? Obviously that'd affect the matchup, although the wizard can afford to go down 2 points in int without changing the math.

Edit: nevermind. There was zero discussion on stat limitation.

So my elf fighter has 18 str, 20 dex, 18 int, 16 con, 18 int, 18 wis, 18 cha...

OK, that's a little silly with regard to the point buy, but if we're totally honest, apart from the initiative difference, that actually doesn't change the math. The fighter has the same to-hit, the wizard never actually rolls against the fighter's stats, and actually the fighter has less con than the math accounted for, so the spells 100% take him out with min damage instead of having a chance to leave him disabled.

However, as it's an elf fighter, it loses a feat, which means we no longer have one of our vile feats. So the fighter either loses tall, which means the wizard can use abrupt jaunt to dodge his melee attack and avoiding have to defensively cast, or the fighter loses immunity to mind-affecting, putting color spray back into play, letting us start with mage armor and buff the wizard's win chances again. The fighter really has to be human; they already don't have enough feats to have combat reflexes without losing more.

Quertus

2020-07-15, 10:02 PM

Doctor Despair

2020-07-15, 10:22 PM

Next dumb questions: 1st level Fighter gets more WBL than 1st level Wizard (:smallannoyed:). No, he can't have a masterwork weapon, but…

Would he benefit from "higher ground" (by being mounted, or even on a soap box - Wizard has to move, and cannot benefit from said soap box as easily)?

Would he benefit from a Potion of Shield (is any winning Wizard build shut down this way) or Faith Heal?

Is there a circumstantial attack bonus to the high ground? It seems like something 5e would grant advantage for, but I'm not sure 3.5 has a mechanic like that. The fighter can already reach the wizard, and doesn't have spare feats for mounted charge mechanics or anything. I'm not sure that a mount would help.

As for potions... the fighter can actually get Shield for free from visiting that Aberrant Dragonmark magical location from that thread earlier today. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615772-Dragonmark-granting-location) It's region-specific to Eberron, it looks like, but let's give it to him.

So the fighter could activate it as an SLA instead of attacking. I suppose the problem here is that the fighter wouldn't know what spells the wizard had prepared (e.g., to know that there was a magic missile coming), and even if they did, they would be faced with a choice: attack with a 60% chance of just winning that turn, or use that SLA (technically giving the wizard an AOO, funnily enough) to block a magic missile they may or may not psychically know is coming in a turn or two.

However, let's say they did do that. The wizard wouldn't be able to use Magic Missile for 10 rounds, so I suppose that would mean the wizard would have to run? The fighter would get a bunch of AOOs.

Alternatively, as we're optimizing, I suppose the wizard could just use a different spell that scales with caster level. Backbiter did 9 average damage, iirc, so the fighter has somewhere between 1 and 5 hp remaining. Rain of Stones instead of Magic Missile would also do it (4d4 no save no roll instead of the 4d4 +4 magic missile would have offered). Heck, the wizard could technically use another Backbiter instead, and free up another feat for Improved Initiative, since we aren't using Reserves of Power there.

As for potions, I'm not sure there are any that are worth the stanard action or whichever action it would be to drink it (as that means making one fewer attack). Mage Armor could technically be active, I suppose, although the wizard never tries to break the fighter's AC, so that's a wash.

... Actually... there is one thing the fighter could do. This is actually kind of hilarious that it hasn't come up. The fighter can chug their way through their WBL and use a TON of cure light wounds potions. The wizard will run out of spells before they run out of potions. The wizard could try to stay adjacent to the fighter, but the fighter could five-foot step away to do so and avoid the AOOs to stop them. Does the wizard even have enough damage at that point to stop the fighter? They get two level ones and three level 0s. The level 0s will do 9 damage at most, and the level 1s seem like 9 is pretty generous. The mage wants combat casting, so that means they don't have the feat slots for the precocious apprentice/fiery burst trick. Does a wizard have good answers to a fighter that decides they want to buy their weapon, and then 3 or 4 cure light wounds potions?

Edit:
Or Faith Heal like you pointed out; objectively better than Cure Light. So the fighter, if they have time to drink each potion, has effectively 14 + (9 * potions) HP. The wizard, rolling max on a Backbiter and Reserves of Power'd Hail of Stones, would deal 29 damage, and then 9 for all three of their level 0 spells (max damage acid splash), for a cumulative 38. If the fighter could drink three potions, that would give them enough HP to tank all that, and then attack the wizard.

Calthropstu

2020-07-15, 10:33 PM

I was using 32 point buy.

Str 8
Dex 16
Con 18
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 8

Where did you get those stats come from? Obviously that'd affect the matchup, although the wizard can afford to go down 2 points in int without changing the math.

OK, that's a little silly with regard to the point buy, but if we're totally honest, apart from the initiative difference, that actually doesn't change the math. The fighter has the same to-hit, the wizard never actually rolls against the fighter's stats, and actually the fighter has less con than the math accounted for, so the spells 100% take him out with min damage instead of having a chance to leave him disabled.

However, as it's an elf fighter, it loses a feat, which means we no longer have one of our vile feats. So the fighter either loses tall, which means the wizard can use abrupt jaunt to dodge his melee attack and avoiding have to defensively cast, or the fighter loses immunity to mind-affecting, putting color spray back into play, letting us start with mage armor and buff the wizard's win chances again. The fighter really has to be human; they already don't have enough feats to have combat reflexes without losing more.

I was obviously joking, though +4 on the will save and iron will turns that dc 12 color spray into a 75% success rate for the fighter.

32 point buy eh? We need the 18 str to auto take out the wizard in 1 shot. 14 con because we need the hp and 16 dex.
Since we are doing schrodingers fighter, we need to take starting wealth into consideration. So a brooch of shielding blocking 4 points of MM damage is 60 gold. Your 14 damage is now 10. So we survive your massive damage. But you are schrodinger's wizard right? So you cast defensively and fail 15% of the time, reducing our hp absorption by 3.5 with a MM. Now your last ditch effort has a better chance. We get a turn. We slam you with an attack, with a 65% chance of death. Now you go. Again, a 15% failure chance, hitting us with your big gun. We have 12 hp and .5 hp from the brooch.

You have a 49% chance of failing to kill the fighter. So what do you do?

Calthropstu

2020-07-15, 10:42 PM

Is there a circumstantial attack bonus to the high ground? It seems like something 5e would grant advantage for, but I'm not sure 3.5 has a mechanic like that. The fighter can already reach the wizard, and doesn't have spare feats for mounted charge mechanics or anything. I'm not sure that a mount would help.

As for potions... the fighter can actually get Shield for free from visiting that Aberrant Dragonmark magical location from that thread earlier today. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?615772-Dragonmark-granting-location) It's region-specific to Eberron, it looks like, but let's give it to him.

So the fighter could activate it as an SLA instead of attacking. I suppose the problem here is that the fighter wouldn't know what spells the wizard had prepared (e.g., to know that there was a magic missile coming), and even if they did, they would be faced with a choice: attack with a 60% chance of just winning that turn, or use that SLA (technically giving the wizard an AOO, funnily enough) to block a magic missile they may or may not psychically know is coming in a turn or two.

However, let's say they did do that. The wizard wouldn't be able to use Magic Missile for 10 rounds, so I suppose that would mean the wizard would have to run? The fighter would get a bunch of AOOs.

Alternatively, as we're optimizing, I suppose the wizard could just use a different spell that scales with caster level. Backbiter did 9 average damage, iirc, so the fighter has somewhere between 1 and 5 hp remaining. Rain of Stones instead of Magic Missile would also do it (4d4 no save no roll instead of the 4d4 +4 magic missile would have offered). Heck, the wizard could technically use another Backbiter instead, and free up another feat for Improved Initiative, since we aren't using Reserves of Power there.

As for potions, I'm not sure there are any that are worth the stanard action or whichever action it would be to drink it (as that means making one fewer attack). Mage Armor could technically be active, I suppose, although the wizard never tries to break the fighter's AC, so that's a wash.

... Actually... there is one thing the fighter could do. This is actually kind of hilarious that it hasn't come up. The fighter can chug their way through their WBL and use a TON of cure light wounds potions. The wizard will run out of spells before they run out of potions. The wizard could try to stay adjacent to the fighter, but the fighter could five-foot step away to do so and avoid the AOOs to stop them. Does the wizard even have enough damage at that point to stop the fighter? They get two level ones and three level 0s. The level 0s will do 9 damage at most, and the level 1s seem like 9 is pretty generous. The mage wants combat casting, so that means they don't have the feat slots for the precocious apprentice/fiery burst trick. Does a wizard have good answers to a fighter that decides they want to buy their weapon, and then 3 or 4 cure light wounds potions?

Edit:
Or Faith Heal like you pointed out; objectively better than Cure Light. So the fighter, if they have time to drink each potion, has effectively 14 + (9 * potions) HP. The wizard, rolling max on a Backbiter and Reserves of Power'd Hail of Stones, would deal 29 damage, and then 9 for all three of their level 0 spells (max damage acid splash), for a cumulative 38. If the fighter could drink three potions, that would give them enough HP to tank all that, and then attack the wizard.

True.

Also, since we are doing schrodinger, the fighter drops his weapon upon backbiter being cast. Then, he draws another weapon and attacks. Kinda defeats that spell completely.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-15, 10:47 PM

I was obviously joking, though +4 on the will save and iron will turns that dc 12 color spray into a 75% success rate for the fighter.

32 point buy eh? We need the 18 str to auto take out the wizard in 1 shot. 14 con because we need the hp and 16 dex.
Since we are doing schrodingers fighter, we need to take starting wealth into consideration. So a brooch of shielding blocking 4 points of MM damage is 60 gold. Your 14 damage is now 10. So we survive your massive damage. But you are schrodinger's wizard right? So you cast defensively and fail 15% of the time, reducing our hp absorption by 3.5 with a MM. Now your last ditch effort has a better chance. We get a turn. We slam you with an attack, with a 65% chance of death. Now you go. Again, a 15% failure chance, hitting us with your big gun. We have 12 hp and .5 hp from the brooch.

You have a 49% chance of failing to kill the fighter. So what do you do?

OK, so that's no initiative bonus, and the fighter has 12 hp.

Backbiter does 9 on average (6-12), so that's 0hp-6hp remaining, average 3.

Magic Missile with Reserves of Power would do an average of 14 (8-20), but with that item reducing it by 4 points, it becomes an average of 10, as you said.

We are overvaluing Magic Missile. I misread the spell -- it doesn't get an extra ray for every caster level. It's an extra ray for every two caster levels beyond the first. Not the spell we want. Let's stick with Hail of Stone for now. Conveniently, it is also an average of 10 damage (4-16). We could also do a second Backbiter, as that avoids another attack, and allows us the chance to use a level 0 spell to do 1-3 damage (average 2) in case we rolled min damage on our first Backbiter and Hail of Stone has a chance not to finish...

However, that we aren't using Magic Missile isn't the death knell for the fighter. As someone pointed out above, we can down healing potions to increase the fighter's effective HP. Since the fighter is immune to mind-affecting spells, there are no SOS/SOL spells we need to fear at these levels, so once the wizard is out of spell slots, that's all she wrote. Is there anything the wizard can do to stop the fighter from five-foot stepping away and drinking potion after potion every time they take damage?

True.

Also, since we are doing schrodinger, the fighter drops his weapon upon backbiter being cast. Then, he draws another weapon and attacks. Kinda defeats that spell completely.

The fighter explicitly wouldn't have knowledge of the effect on their weapon, so I don't think they'd drop the weapon and draw a second one; not without a spellcraft check anyway, I suppose. There's an argument to be made, however, that they might drop their weapon and go for a touch attack. However, once the fighter went to grapple, the wizard could Abrupt Jaunt out of range to avoid that.

On the one hand, the fighter has chosen not to use their weapon for the rest of the combat, which is undeniably good for the wizard. They don't have improved unarmed strike, or improved grapple, or anything like that, so there's a lot of AOOs the fighter is going to trigger, which could be free damage for the wizard.

On the other hand, the wizard is out of one of their spells. I suppose the wizard could use all their level 0 spells until the fighter is down to 9hp, and then try a Reserves of Power'd Hail of Stones as a finisher (average 10), and hope that'd be sufficient.

However, as pointed out above in this post, the fighter could drink a bunch of potions to tank through the wizard's damage. I'm not sure the wizard even has enough damage to finish the fighter off if they don't "waste" a spell on Backbiter.

Calthropstu

2020-07-15, 11:01 PM

OK, so that's no initiative bonus, and the fighter has 12 hp.

Backbiter does 9 on average (6-12), so that's 0hp-6hp remaining, average 3.

Magic Missile with Reserves of Power would do an average of 14 (8-20), but with that item reducing it by 4 points, it becomes an average of 10, as you said.

We are overvaluing Magic Missile. I misread the spell -- it doesn't get an extra ray for every caster level. It's an extra ray for every two caster levels beyond the first. Not the spell we want. Let's stick with Hail of Stone for now. Conveniently, it is also an average of 10 damage (4-16). We could also do a second Backbiter, as that avoids another attack, and allows us the chance to use a level 0 spell to do 1-3 damage (average 2) in case we rolled min damage on our first Backbiter and Hail of Stone has a chance not to finish...

However, that we aren't using Magic Missile isn't the death knell for the fighter. As someone pointed out above, we can down healing potions to increase the fighter's effective HP. Since the fighter is immune to mind-affecting spells, there are no SOS/SOL spells we need to fear at these levels, so once the wizard is out of spell slots, that's all she wrote. Is there anything the wizard can do to stop the fighter from five-foot stepping away and drinking potion after potion every time they take damage?

The fighter explicitly wouldn't have knowledge of the effect on their weapon, so I don't think they'd drop the weapon and draw a second one; not without a spellcraft check anyway, I suppose. There's an argument to be made, however, that they might drop their weapon and go for a touch attack. However, once the fighter went to grapple, the wizard could Abrupt Jaunt out of range to avoid that.

On the one hand, the fighter has chosen not to use their weapon for the rest of the combat, which is undeniably good for the wizard. They don't have improved unarmed strike, or improved grapple, or anything like that, so there's a lot of AOOs the fighter is going to trigger, which could be free damage for the wizard.

On the other hand, the wizard is out of one of their spells. I suppose the wizard could use all their level 0 spells until the fighter is down to 9hp, and then try a Reserves of Power'd Hail of Stones as a finisher (average 10), and hope that'd be sufficient.

However, as pointed out above in this post, the fighter could drink a bunch of potions to tank through the wizard's damage. I'm not sure the wizard even has enough damage to finish the fighter off if they don't "waste" a spell on Backbiter.

So we can get a 40% chance to completely avoid backbiter. Or just say "I know backbiter exists, so I will switch weapons every round." If we are going strictly raw with schrodinger, this is perfectly viable. Backbiter is defeated.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-15, 11:11 PM

So we can get a 40% chance to completely avoid backbiter. Or just say "I know backbiter exists, so I will switch weapons every round." If we are going strictly raw with schrodinger, this is perfectly viable. Backbiter is defeated.

I suppose that's fair. A fighter could be trained to drop their weapon and draw a new one on each action, or more conservatively, whenever the wizard casts a spell that has an effect the fighter can't immediately determine with a spot check. That was a high-damaging spell, so that helps the fighter's odds even more with the potion-drinking strategy.

Quertus

2020-07-16, 01:25 AM

AFB; IIRC, "higher ground" (including "on a mount") grants a +1 to hit.

However, the "drinking problem" Fighter apparently does not benefit from a soap box, as he may need to move, too.

emeraldstreak

2020-07-16, 01:41 AM

Potion of Shield does not exist. It's a personal range spell.

emeraldstreak

2020-07-16, 04:01 AM

Precocious Apprentice for Scorching Ray could be a better choice for blasting. For two more feats it can be Suddenly Maximized. Winning initiative won't be a problem as such a wizard can take Improved Initiative, hummingbird, and Neverskitter. No good way to avoid the AoO, though.

Meanwhile, Blockade + Bend Spell + metamagic reduction is almost surefire way to stop the AoO. The only counter I can think of is Pursue, but it requires Action Points from Eberron. Such a wizard won't have enough feats for Sudden Maximize, though. Blockade also rules out Neverskitter.

EDIT: actually Bend Spell isn't a must. Sooo:

Precocious Apprentice(1st level) + irrelevant Metamagic feat (Strongheart Halfling) + Sudden Maximize (worshipping Evil) + Improved Initiative (in place of Scribe Scroll). Familiar for +Initiative.

- win Initiative
- make a 5ft step diagonally
- swiftly cast Blockade on the starting spot so that non-total cover is established v the Fighter. That's enough to block AoOs.
- cast Suddenly Maximized Scorching Ray

Doctor Despair

2020-07-16, 05:48 AM

Precocious Apprentice(1st level) + irrelevant Metamagic feat (Strongheart Halfling) + Sudden Maximize (worshipping Evil) + Improved Initiative (in place of Scribe Scroll). Familiar for +Initiative.

- win Initiative
- make a 5ft step diagonally
- swiftly cast Blockade on the starting spot so that non-total cover is established v the Fighter. That's enough to block AoOs.
- cast Suddenly Maximized Scorching Ray

* We need the conjuration focus so that the fighter needs to have deformity (tall). If we trade it out, we are vulnerable to grappling and the fighter can just take Improved Initiative with their extra feat

* Elder Evil worship only grants specific vile feats, so Sudden Maximize is out :/

* Actually casting your Apprentice spell requires a DC8 caster level check, so you lose your spell (and the.match) 30% of the time

* You also need a touch attack for Ray, so you miss that at least roughly half the time, losing the match

* Scorching Ray does 4d6, average 14. Without Sudden Maximize, our fire resist 5 will keep us up most of the time.

------

Potion of Shield does not exist. It's a personal range spell.

The fighter can get it from a magical location (or rather, get the aberrant dragonmark that grants it from a magical location). However, the wizard isn't using Magic Missiles and won't need to break the fighter's non-touch AC in most situations, so it's a little moot.

Twurps

2020-07-16, 06:46 AM

Just hopping back in to say:
Hilarious how 'in combat healing' seems to saving the day for the fighter. :)

Also hilarious how that is so much 'not intuitive' for everybody that it took us forever to think of.

On a serious note: WBL seems to be getting very relevant (why would we be surprised). A wizard starting with 75 gold, having to buy a tower shield, spellbook and component pouch has 25GP's left by my math. Certainly enough to buy a simple weapon to threaten those all important AoO's, but decent ranged weapons such as a crossbow are out. Which is important for our 'drinking problem fighter'

Doctor Despair

2020-07-16, 08:12 AM

Of course, that's assuming no third party/dragon mag stuff. With third party stuff, I'm pretty sure the wizard wins way more often with Easy Metamagic/Fell Drain/Level 0 no-save no-roll 1 damage spells. Five foot step, blockade, ping with a negative level.

To get Enduring Life and have a chance to draw, the fighter has to give up a feat -- probably madness or tall/EWP -- which lets the wizard either stall out for damage with Abrupt Jaunt again, or use Color Spray to stall out the game until Enduring Life runs out. Then, the wizard has the flight option again, as they could ping the fighter with a negative level from the air and then fly away.

emeraldstreak

2020-07-16, 09:34 AM

Darg

2020-07-16, 10:24 AM

There is no gap in time between an attack roll and damage roll. Abrupt jaunt could be used to preempt the attack but can't be used to waste it.

If a wizard can use a tower shield, the fighter can too. This means if the fighter fails initiative the wizard can't use color spray because it isn't a spread. Upon the fighters turn they could drop the shield and make their attack. At this point abrupt jaunt would provoke and if the fighter has quick draw then they could then make another attack as they haven't rolled their attack yet. And they could always pull out a second tower shield for total cover on the second round.

All in all I think a fighter has a better chance at winning than people are giving them credit for at level 1. The real issue is higher levels, but that is simply the power creep of casters.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-16, 10:52 AM

Easy Metamagic is not required. Metamagic School Focus suffices if the wizard manages to meet the requirements.

The Fighter can counter Sonic Snap by being a Whisper Gnome (Silence).

So the wizard would be required to be a specialist in that school, so that would mean...

Conjuration: Acid Splash (requires ranged touch, so not ideal)

Evocation: Sonic Snap/Horizkaul's Cough (foiled by Silence), Ray of Frost (ranged touch), Electric Jolt (ranged touch)

Transmutation: Slash Tongue (fort negates)

If the wizard uses conjuration, they need a ranged touch attack to win the encounter; since one spell slot is for Blockade, the wizard only gets one shot at this. If the wizard goes first, ranged touch (+5 with a strongheart halfling) breaks the fighter's flatfooted AC (10) on a 5, or an 80% success rate. If the fighter goes first, the fighter's AC (as much as 14) means the wizard now needs a 9, or a 60% chance. Those are actually pretty decent odds.

The fighter could trade out EWP and Tall for enduring life and something else -- maybe Improved Initiative or something. We can't get Lasting Life, sadly, since we don't have the feats for Endurance. Since the fighter is just chugging health potions, and the wizard in that scenario is spending at least of their level 1 spells on this fell drain effect, the wizard presumably won't have enough damage to finish the fighter off. At that point, the wizard will probably want to just run away, I suppose.

The fighter could walk to the left of the block and attack the wizard; then, the wizard would run away, triggering an AOO that the wizard could jaunt away from. The wizard could then run, outside of the fighter's range, for a number of rounds equal to their con score, so let's say 18. However, the fighter will be up for rounds equal to their con bonus, so 4 minutes at least. That leaves a little more than 2 minutes left. The wizard isn't going to make their con saves for that long.

It gets a little worse for the non-conjuration wizard, who doesn't have Jaunt to avoid taking AOOs every turn, of course. However, let's set that aside for the moment. It seems like if the fighter takes a negative level from a level 1 spell, unless the wizard has flight (dragon mag), it will result in a draw, as the fighter needs to take Enduring Life.

We had that free feat for Endurance, so we can actually afford to go Whisper Gnome. After all, that forces the wizard into a conjuration focus (and therefore needing to take the the ranged touch attack, instead of automatically inflicting the damage). If we have a psychic fighter who knows they are going to be facing someone with that Fell Drain snap, then if they go first in initiative, they could activate it, and then run down the wizard who took sonic snap. They'd have to down the wizard in 10 rounds (1 min), which seems pretty possible. The odds get a little better for the wizard on AC, as the fighter takes a strength penalty, but the fighter gets a dex bonus, so initiative is a little nicer. Additionally, it cancels the wizard's AC bonus from being small (strongheart halfling).

However, in either case, if the wizard goes first, they can five-foot step and blast us with any of the spells -- no blockade needed.

So this hypothetical fighter is probably a Whispergnome with Enduring Life, Willing Deformity, and Deformity (Madness). Against the Evocation Specialist, the fighter just wins if they go first; the wizard probably draws if they go first.

The wizard is probably a Conjuration Specialist with Fell Drain and Metamagic School Focus, Fell Acid Splash and Blockade prepared. The fighter probably wins or draws if they go first; the wizard probably draws if they go first.

4 minutes is a long time for a wizard to run away from an angry fighter without enough damage to take them down.

...

OK, hear me out. What if instead of Blockade, we use Fatigue. A conjuration wizard with Fell Drain and Metamagic School Focus hits the fighter with a Sunstroke to induce fatigue on a failed fort save. Then, they Fell Acid Splash. Then, they run away. The wizard could have up to 4 Abrupt Jaunts, and the fighter doesn't have reach anymore. They could five-foot step, cast Sunstroke. Then, when the fighter attacks, they Jaunt back. Then, they cast Fell Acid Splash, and Jaunt the fighter's next attack. Then, they run away. If the wizard goes first, the fighter never gets an attack. If the fighter goes first, they get one attack.

Fighter has a fort save (DC11+Wizard Int vs Fighter Con +2), then a ranged touch attack (10 + Fighter Dex vs Wizard Dex[although this could be lower if the wizard goes first and does this first, while the fighter is flat-footed]), and then no check for the wizard to run, as the fighter can't follow. That might be this wizard's best shot, as it actually gives the wizard a chance to win, abeit after two basically 50/50 checks.

There is no gap in time between an attack roll and damage roll. Abrupt jaunt could be used to preempt the attack but can't be used to waste it.

If a wizard can use a tower shield, the fighter can too. This means if the fighter fails initiative the wizard can't use color spray because it isn't a spread. Upon the fighters turn they could drop the shield and make their attack. At this point abrupt jaunt would provoke and if the fighter has quick draw then they could then make another attack as they haven't rolled their attack yet. And they could always pull out a second tower shield for total cover on the second round.

All in all I think a fighter has a better chance at winning than people are giving them credit for at level 1. The real issue is higher levels, but that is simply the power creep of casters.

If the fighter attacks, the wizard immediate action jaunts away. The fighter no longer has an attack, as they used it. If the fighter didn't use it, the wizard didn't jaunt.

You're right that a fighter in total defense with a tower shield can't be color sprayed, although they wouldn't have it like that at the start of combat (just like the wizard didn't have it like that at the start of combat). They also can't attack if they use it for total cover; iirc taking total cover is a standard action. So the fighter goes first, attacks, and draws their shield, and passes. Then, the wizard five-foot steps, and they get color sprayed.

Also: the fighter, the thread has determined has an enormously large chance to win as long as they spent all but their weapons' worth of WBL on healing potions. The wizard just doesn't have enough damage to burn through the potions. Then, the fighter can run down the wizard with their 18 strength, +1 BAB, and at least +6 health.

Darg

2020-07-16, 12:37 PM

Zarvistic

2020-07-16, 01:07 PM

You can jaunt before the attack is rolled which means the attack action isn't wasted, but you still generate the AoO if you do it while being threatened. An immediate action doesn't have the preclusion of AoOs that a swift action does even though it makes it so you can't use your swift action for the turn.
Abrupt Jaunt is supernatural, so it wouldn't provoke because of that.

Darg

2020-07-16, 01:11 PM

I don't have the book in front of me but I am pretty positive they are spell-like abilities which do provoke.

Edit: yes, the ACF is indeed a spell-like ability.

emeraldstreak

2020-07-16, 02:03 PM

I don't have the book in front of me but I am pretty positive they are spell-like abilities which do provoke.

Edit: yes, the ACF is indeed a spell-like ability.

Spell-like provoke.

Abrupt Jaunt is supernatural, so it wouldn't provoke because of that.

The Supernatural part can easily be dealt via Supernatural Opportunist. It's the Immediate part that doesn't provoke an AoO.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-16, 02:08 PM

Using a tower shield as total cover is a free action. The FAQ suggests it should be a standard action, but FAQ is not the leading authority. Either way, as I said, total cover means you can't be hit by color spray. If you don't have any actions prior to the start of the duel, then yes a tower shield lessens in capability.

Mind-affecting spells are how the wizard wins here, whether it's color spray or another option. Power Word Pain and other targeted friends work through the cover (6d6 (average 21) or 12d6 damage (42) would not be something you want to open yourself up to). You still want the immunity to mind-affecting for this matchup.

When your attack succeeds, you deal damage.

There is no "then you deal damage." If you roll your attack and hit, you deal damage. There is no interrupting something that happens simultaneously. Abrupt Jaunt can't be used to evade an attack already rolled and it causes an AoO. You can jaunt before the attack is rolled which means the attack action isn't wasted

You deal damage if your attack succeeds. I was using it as a term for breaking AC, not successfully rolling your dice. However, as I'm looking at it, it seems you're right that you can't do it in response to declaring an attack, before the die is rolled, like a prepared action. However, functionally, it doesn't change up the matchup, I don't think. The wizard can jaunt before the fighter attacks, forcing them into a second move action rather than an attack, or jaunt out of range before triggering an AOO, in most situations where they would normally jaunt "in response" to the attack.

I don't have the book in front of me but I am pretty positive they are spell-like abilities which do provoke.

Edit: yes, the ACF is indeed a spell-like ability.

I can't find it in this thread, but I believe someone in the thread pointed to an errata to make it a Su ability. However, someone else pointed out that although the rules on immediate actions seem to suggest that, taken outside of your turn, they would provoke AOOs, while taken on your turn they would not, there is some helpful text in the Rules Compendium.

The rules compendium states that Immediate Action "Cast Spell (1 immediate action casting time)" doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. It doesn't explicitly say whether immediate spell-like abilities trigger AoOs, but since quickened spell-like abilities don't, it's reasonable IMO to assume that immediate spell-like abilities don't, either.

Additionally, immediate actions on your turn turn into swift actions, which do not trigger AOOs

The Supernatural part can easily be dealt via Supernatural Opportunist. It's the Immediate part that doesn't provoke an AoO.

The fighter doesn't have the feats to spend on Supernatural Opportunist and it's feat tax, sadly. However, the positive part is that the fighter doesn't need them to win if they just buy a bunch of potions. No one has answered the fact that a fighter who is immune to mind-affecting effects cannot be killed by the normal wizard's damage without using Fell Drain. Even then, that only results in a tie unless the wizard is able to also make the fighter fail their fort save to Sunstroke and avoid their attacks while doing it.

Twurps

2020-07-16, 02:26 PM

I don't have the book in front of me but I am pretty positive they are spell-like abilities which do provoke.

Edit: yes, the ACF is indeed a spell-like ability.

I think we established somewhere upthread that it doesn't provoke?

The rules compendium states that Immediate Action "Cast Spell (1 immediate action casting time)" doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity. It doesn't explicitly say whether immediate spell-like abilities trigger AoOs, but since quickened spell-like abilities don't, it's reasonable IMO to assume that immediate spell-like abilities don't, either.

So we've been going with that.

Another thing does bother me with this jaunting though. We've been working under the assumption that the fighter needs an exotic weapon. As it needs to threaten the adjacent and further out squared with the same weapon:

Tall grants you 10 feet of natural reach, yes, but unless we're taking Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, if we attack the adjacent wizard with our armor spikes, that means we're not using our guisarme, so the jaunt to 15 feet would let them dodge the attack. If we attack with a spiked chain, you're right, though. I'm not sure what we could afford to give up for it though.

After thinking about this one, I don't agree. The fighter can have the gloves on and Glaive in hand. Meaning he threatens all squares within his reach. If the wizard provokes while adjacent to the fighter, he can let go of the glaive and attack with the gloves. Letting go of the glaive to attack with his fist is a free action, as is re-grabbing the glaive that he is still holding in his off-hand is also a free action. The rules say the number of free actions should be limited to something 'reasonable', but I think we can all agree 1 is reasonable, or they wouldn't exist. And 1 is all the fighter needs. If the wizard jaunts first, he doesn't have to let go of the glaive. If he doesn't jaunt first, then he has to let go.

The wizard can jaunt before or after casting his spell, but I'm pretty sure he can't jaunt 'during' the casting. So where-ever he starts casting, he has to finish casting, thus eating an AoO.
This doesn't really change the math, since we were using exorcist fighter from dragonmagazine up to now. this just means the last bit of dragonmag can/should now be tossed.

Sutr

2020-07-16, 04:57 PM

Question does an entangling breath dragonborn possibly with quicken breath at third help the fighter by giving him something to do with his swift action that may prevent the wizard from casting?

Twurps

2020-07-16, 05:27 PM

Question does an entangling breath dragonborn possibly with quicken breath at third help the fighter by giving him something to do with his swift action that may prevent the wizard from casting?

We decided no LA (other than +0) and no RHD. Or it gets to be a war of templates more than wizard vs fighter.

Darg

2020-07-16, 07:10 PM

I think we established somewhere upthread that it doesn't provoke?

So we've been going with that.

I don't regularly use the rules compendium so I tend to forget it changes a lot of things that I don't think are changed. Where does it say that immediate action spell-like abilities don't provoke? The only reference I can find is the "provokes attacks of opportunity unless otherwise noted" line. There are several locations where it specifically states that spells with a cast time of immediate action don't provoke. Quicken SLA gives a specific exception for a quickened SLA only.

Mind-affecting spells are how the wizard wins here, whether it's color spray or another option. Power Word Pain and other targeted friends work through the cover (6d6 (average 21) or 12d6 damage (42) would not be something you want to open yourself up to). You still want the immunity to mind-affecting for this matchup.

The point was to prevent being made unable to act. If the fighter can't act they can't win.

You deal damage if your attack succeeds. I was using it as a term for breaking AC, not successfully rolling your dice. However, as I'm looking at it, it seems you're right that you can't do it in response to declaring an attack, before the die is rolled, like a prepared action. However, functionally, it doesn't change up the matchup, I don't think. The wizard can jaunt before the fighter attacks, forcing them into a second move action rather than an attack, or jaunt out of range before triggering an AOO, in most situations where they would normally jaunt "in response" to the attack.

Using a charge action doesn't preclude you from changing directions. The rules compendium says you can make an attack after your movement. Making an attack is rolling the dice. If you don't role the dice your movement doesn't have to be over unless you make a declaration that you aren't making an attack. This means the fighter would have plenty of movement left to catch the wizard after the jaunt even if the they wouldn't get an AoO. In a situation where the fighter expended a move action, Quick Draw would still let them make an attack that the wizard wouldn't have an answer for

I can't find it in this thread, but I believe someone in the thread pointed to an errata to make it a Su ability. However, someone else pointed out that although the rules on immediate actions seem to suggest that, taken outside of your turn, they would provoke AOOs, while taken on your turn they would not, there is some helpful text in the Rules Compendium.

Found it. Ok, yeah. Abrupt Jaunt is a Su ability.

Additionally, immediate actions on your turn turn into swift actions, which do not trigger AOOs

They do not turn into swift actions. It only counts as a swift action on your turn. They are clarifying that no matter where in the round it is, you only get one swift or immediate action per round. The phrase "counts as" in this context means taken in place of.

The fighter doesn't have the feats to spend on Supernatural Opportunist and it's feat tax, sadly. However, the positive part is that the fighter doesn't need them to win if they just buy a bunch of potions. No one has answered the fact that a fighter who is immune to mind-affecting effects cannot be killed by the normal wizard's damage without using Fell Drain. Even then, that only results in a tie unless the wizard is able to also make the fighter fail their fort save to Sunstroke and avoid their attacks while doing it.

I like Quick Draw as it let's you cover your bases pretty well and as a human it would still leave you with enough feats to get Supernatural Opportunist. I said earlier that using a tower shield as cover was a free action, but technically speaking the FAQ is the only source that changed it from a "Not an Action" classification. The description doesn't say you have to give up all your attacks nor for how long. "Not an Action"s are done as part of something else. In the case of a tower shield you can use it as total cover in place of the AC at the cost of giving up attacks. Other examples of "giving up" attacks has it as part of an action or until your next turn. You can also voluntarily give up your attacks at any time such as making 2 of your four attacks but not at using the last two. You can give up AoOs. If not using the FAQ, a tower shield will protect the fighter from any non targeted spell whenever they feel like it which is a lot of your fighter made dead spells. This means that you get your normal attacks if you so choose but can retreat behind your shield at any time except between an AoO and the action that provoked it because you have already interrupted the action. Is there a level 1 save or die or HD spell that targets that I can't think of?

Doctor Despair

2020-07-16, 07:20 PM

Is there a level 1 save or die or HD spell that targets that I can't think of?

Fell Drain'd, Metamagic School Focus'd Sonic Snap. One negative level, no save, no attack roll.

Edit:
Acid Splash if we want a conjuration focus with it, although that requires a ranged touch attack.

Calthropstu

2020-07-16, 08:10 PM

Fell Drain'd, Metamagic School Focus'd Sonic Snap. One negative level, no save, no attack roll.

Edit:
Acid Splash if we want a conjuration focus with it, although that requires a ranged touch attack.

How are you fell draining? that's a level 2 spell. You only have level 1.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-16, 08:11 PM

How are you fell draining? that's a level 2 spell. You only have level 1.

It's in the post.

Prerequisite
Spell Focus (chosen school) or specialist wizard in chosen school,

Benefit
Choose a school of magic for which you have the Spell Focus feat, or the school in which you have specialized. Three times per day, you can reduce by one level the cost of a metamagic feat applied to a spell of the chosen school. If you prepare spells, you can have only up to three such reduced cost spells prepared at any time.

Calthropstu

2020-07-16, 08:16 PM

It's in the post.

Prerequisite
Spell Focus (chosen school) or specialist wizard in chosen school,

Benefit
Choose a school of magic for which you have the Spell Focus feat, or the school in which you have specialized. Three times per day, you can reduce by one level the cost of a metamagic feat applied to a spell of the chosen school. If you prepare spells, you can have only up to three such reduced cost spells prepared at any time.

Oh great. So you're dropping all other feats for this. And expending all your resources for one shot. And all we need is resistance 3 to acid and cold. Anyone care to pipe in with something that shuts down the zero level damage spells?

Darg

2020-07-16, 08:45 PM

Sonic snap is sonic damage. I personally don't know of a way to get resistance to sonic damage at level 1.

However you can shape soulmeld Spellward Shirt to give you 5-9 resistance.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-16, 08:49 PM

Oh great. So you're dropping all other feats for this. And expending all your resources for one shot. And all we need is resistance 3 to acid and cold. Anyone care to pipe in with something that shuts down the zero level damage spells?

Sonic Snap does sonic damage, not cold damage. More power to you if there's a way to block the 1-3 damage pings from these 0-level spells; personally, I'm rooting for the fighter, but I'm rooting for accuracy before that (note: I was among those theorycrafting fighter builds for like the first 3/4ths of the thread). The fighter can just drink potions until the wizard runs out of spell slots with all the other wizard builds mentioned, so the fighter pretty much wins by default if the wizard can't access Fell Drain as far as I'm concerned, unless we build some combat-based melee wizard. Even then, I'm pretty sure the fighter's BAB advantage and HP advantage would bear out a win in most matchups, although I have no idea what that hypothetical combat wizard looks like.

As I said above, the fighter can take Enduring Life and get 4 minutes to down the wizard and make it a draw at least. The wizard doesn't have racial flight, so the wizard needs to be able to escape some other way. The ability to make the fighter fatigued was the only think that came to mind, as that prevents the fighter from running after a fleeing wizard, which is what drew me back to Sunstroke. It requires a fort save, so the fighter will pass most of the time, but if the fighter fails, the wizard can run away while the fighter is stuck to double moves, presumably escaping and leaving the fighter to die.

If there's a way to get 1-3 points of resistance or DR against sonic, acid, cold, and electricity, that leaves Slash Tongue (transmutation) which deals 1 point of damage on a failed fort save, among other minor debuffs. Sudden Transmutaton technically would grant a fly speed, but only for [int bonus] rounds, so it would be terribly helpful unless there was some sort of tall terrain to take advantage of, which is not part of the exercise. However, requiring two fort saves instead of one makes this even less reliable, hence the preference for Sonic Snap if possible.

However, it's notable that even this scenario is very much in favor of the fighter. The wizard isn't taking mage armor in this scenario, so their AC is much lower. Sunstroke requires a fort save, which is the fighter's best save. If the wizard uses Acid Splash, it requires a ranged touch attack, which is still approximately a 50/50 if the fighter goes first, although Sonic Snap is probably preferable if the fighter isn't a Whispergnome. I hope there's a better method of sonic immunity or to negate that 1 damage though, as the fighter needing to spend a turn using their Silence SLA instead of attacking feels pretty bad, and only lasts for 10 rounds anyway.

Edit:

Sonic snap is sonic damage. I personally don't know of a way to get resistance to sonic damage at level 1.

However you can shape soulmeld Spellward Shirt to give you 5-9 resistance.

Of note, that is Spell Resistance for those unfamiliar with the system, not energy resistance.

That's nice for a 40% chance to negate the two spells the wizard needs to cast to win. I think that rules out the Whispergnome fighter (as we need the human/strongheart halfling bonus feat now), but that's fine. We can take Enduring Life (so we don't auto-lose if the wizard Fell Snaps us, and can at least draw most of the time), and Shape Soulmeld for the SR9.

I think we swap out Enduring Life for Shape Soulmeld. Enduring Life makes sure we tie most of the time (the fighter has probably a +6 to their fort save (DC 15 at most), so it's a generous 40% chance they fail their save against Sunstroke, along with the chances the fighter hit the wizard with an attack or an AOO somewhere in there). However, it doesn't help the fighter's winrate -- only cushions their lossrate.

So this fighter-build looks like Shape Soulmeld (Level 1), Willing Deformity (Racial Bonus), Deformity: Madness (Elder Evil Worship), Combat Reflexes (Fighter).
WBL: 60-240
Weapons: Guisarme (9gp), Padded Armor (5gp), and Armor Spikes (50gp)
Rest of WBL: 0-3 Potions of Faith Healing (healing for 13 each, or 0-39hp)

Even if the wizard goes first, they fail their caster-level check on a 7, or 35% of the time. Those numbers look a lot better for the wizard... but what if we swap out the Willing Deformity/Madness combo for Enduring Life/Thrall to Demon (+1 to any one attack roll, saving throw, ability check, skill check, or level check)? At least then we pad our win-loss-draw ratio, and require the wizard doesn't prepare two Sonic Snaps (again, they need to fatigue us to have any chance of winning with this strat).

So if the wizard goes first, 35% of the time the wizard just straight-up loses by failing to break our SR with the negative level. Then, the fighter has to miss their attack (wizard's AC is probably 14, so 45% chance). Then, they have to break our SR again to hit us with Sunstroke (35% chance of failure), and we need to hit our 40% chance (less with our new vile feat) chance to fail our fort save. Then, the wizard has to be able to escape us somehow, but let's assume that's automatically successful, as this is a very small chance anyway. 40% of 65% of 45% of 65% works out to about a 8% chance the wizard wins. If the wizard broke SR on that initial spell, but failed anywhere after, it's almost a guaranteed draw (~57% chance). So...

Wizard goes first (optimal scenario for the wizard) Win (8%), Lose (35%), Draw (57%).

Fighter goes first works the same way, but with an extra attack, so... 40% of 65% of 45% of 65% of 45% (~4%) chance the wizard wins, 35% of 45% chance the wizard draws (~16%), and the rest is fighter wins (~80%).

This math gets better when you consider the wizard doesn't have abrupt jaunt if they're using Fell Sonic Snap, so has to five-foot step, cast defensively, or AC tank to try to cast their spells. If the fighter has that guisarme, the wizard can't five-foot step for safety, and doesn't have combat casting, so fails those a lot more on those two AOOs (35% chance of failure, so a 0.35 multiplier for drawing, and a 0.0175 multiplier for winning...)

Alternatively, the wizard has to use Fell Acid Splash, which requires a ranged touch attack. That's honestly probably better than tanking the AOOs... but the difference is so marginal. Is there a way to get acid resistance at level 1 like that through items or obscure magical locations or things like that?

Fighter comes out ahead even more than they already did.

Edit:

Actually, is it better for the wizard to just do a Reserves of Power, Precocious Apprentice spell at this point and just hope for max damage? 65% chance to cast a spell at caster level 4. On a touch attack, Combust would do 4d8 fire damage with a DC 15 save to avoid catching fire... Racial Fire Resist 5 hurts us there, of course, so we'd do 0-27 damage, average 13, and we just lose if it doesn't finish them, but with the potion-drinking strat, we basically have to finish the fighter in one spell, right? Can't do mind-affecting, the negative level strat has an infinitesimally small chance of working, so that leaves just hoping damage dice are in our favor, right?

Fighter still wins more often than not of course; on average, the damage doesn't kill, if the wizard even gets the spell through the caster level check, and if the wizard wins initiative (or the fighter whiffs their attack), and if the wizard can successfully defensively cast (35% failure chance), and if the wizard breaks the touch AC of the fighter, and if they break SR, and if they roll high enough... Potions, man. Potions, soulmelds, and insanity. Who would have thought it?

Edit:

I see Bane Magic being brought up in another thread. If we forsake the level 2 spells, Hail of Stone would do 4d4 + 2d6 (6-28, average 17). Kills on average, and dodges SR at least. Win initiative or survive fighter's turn, Abrupt Jaunt out of AOO range, Hail of Stone to kill on average, lose if the fighter survives? The wizard can have Mage Armor in this scenario, too. Assuming equal initiative, that puts things back in the wizard's court a little bit. The fighter would need to literally have a few uses of toughness to overcome that, right? Or have the Deformity (Tall) to make the wizard defensively cast after the jaunt. This requires the wizard to specifically only be able to defeat this specific fighter's type (probably humanoid) though, so it definitely doesn't beat ALL fighters. It does seem to be the only wizard that somewhat reliably beats that fighter though, while that fighter build actually seems like it beats most wizards most of the time.

Edit:

Okay, so back for some math.

Wizard goes first: They abrupt jaunt out of the fighter's natural reach and, if needed, move out of the fighter's extended reach, using a tower shield for total cover against reach attacks. They drop the shield as a free action and cast the Bane Magic'd Reserves of Power'd Hail of Stone. 100% chance of success so far. Then, the fighter takes damage: 6-28, average 17. The fighter has 14 hp without toughness, but if we throw on two copies of toughness, that would give them 20hp. "Average" dice means a 58% chance of hitting that number or greater, and to be honest, I'm not sure exactly sure how to calculate the mixed and multiple die roll percentages. Suffice to say that it's less likely to beat average dice the more die we have -- probably well under 50%. If the fighter lives, they charge the wizard (who is 45 feet away, or 35 if a Strongheart Halfling).

However, if the fighter takes two instances of toughness, they no longer have an immunity to mind-affecting spells or SR, so the wizard can hit them with a Bane Magic'd Power Word Pain instead. That would do 1d6 + 2d6 damage per turn for 4d4 turns (average 10 turns), or an average of 30d6 (30-180, average 105). That guarantees a draw, at least, and allows the wizard to focus entirely on defense apart from that. Total defense and hope the fighter whiffs until the 10.5 damage/round takes him down, I suppose.

Fighter goes first: They swing at the wizard and have to break AC 19 (flat-footed AC with tower shield). 35% chance to hit (+5 to hit), downing the wizard. Then, the wizard abrupt jaunts and casts their spell of choice with Bane Magic (buff Hail of Stones or PWPain), with some very large chance to kill or, if the fighter has two instances of toughness, guaranteeing at least a draw with PWP. Upon surviving, the fighter then wins if the wizard used Hail of Stones, or has another chance to swing (40% chance to hit) before the Power Word Pain would probably down him.

Bane Magic helps the wizard a lot unless the fighter can get a source of DR of some sort.

I wonder if it would be better, for the fighter who took two instances of toughness, to use Sudden Maximized Power Word Pain instead. 6 damage every round instead of 3-18 damage every round (average 10.5)

Of course, that's setting aside the fact that a fighter with two toughness feats is also vulnerable to the Fell Snap build again, having lost their Enduring Life and Spell Resistance.

So a very tough wizard to beat would be:

Class: Conjuration Specialization Wizard
Race: Strongheart Halfling
Spells Known: Power Word Pain, Hail of Stone, Mage Armor
Feats: Reserves of Power, Bane Magic (Fighter's Type)
Equipment: Tower Shield, Spellbook

Fighter needs either immunity to mind-affecting (eats two feats) or SR to avoid PWP, and toughness with 18 con to survive Hail of Stone on average. That leaves them with their fighter feat to spare for Combat Reflexes or Improved Initiative or something. I suppose the fighter might end up looking something like this:

Class: Fighter
Race: Fire-Variant Human (Fire Resistance 5, Bonus Feat)
Feats: Shape Soulmeld (for SR against Power Word Pain, negative levels, etc), Toughness (for HP against Super Hail of Stone), Thrall to Demon, Improved Initiative
Equipment: Tower Shield, Guisarme, Padded Armor, Armor Spikes, 3 potions of Faith Healing

Edit

Is there anything we can get from Bind Vestige or Martial Study that would give us more effective HP than Toughness at level 1? I don't think the vestiges offer anything helpful for this barrier to the fighter

Vizzerdrix

2020-07-17, 11:55 PM

Where is the level 1 fighter getting the gp for potion spam? Why wouldn't the wizard counter with partial charge wands?

Calthropstu

2020-07-18, 01:02 AM

Where is the level 1 fighter getting the gp for potion spam? Why wouldn't the wizard counter with partial charge wands?

The wizard gets half what the fighter gets for starting gold. Fighter gets 6d4*10 gp (150 avg) while the wizard gets 3d4*10 (75 avg)

Wizard is buying other stuff in these builds (one build buys him a tower shield)

A fully charged wand is 750 gp. Divide by 50 and you get 15. You have max 5 wand charges. Fighter has max 6 healing potions. You lose on number. However, you're losing your move action to draw the wand. Using a wand does not provoke, but since a wand is not technically a weapon, you provoke when you draw the wand. Unless you want to have all 5 charges on one wand. Which then opens up to it being stolen by the fighter.

*sigh* Can't think right now, calling it quits.

emeraldstreak

2020-07-18, 02:24 AM

Why wouldn't the wizard counter with partial charge wands?

You'll need to cite a rule for buying these.

Calthropstu

2020-07-18, 02:27 AM

You'll need to cite a rule for buying these.

It's located in the dmg. I don't have access at the moment.

Vizzerdrix

2020-07-18, 10:05 AM

It's located in the dmg. I don't have access at the moment.

A cure light wounds potion has a market price of 50 gp. What I am not understanding is how the fighter can afford 6 potions. Did I miss something? I will re-read the thread if I did.

I would also like to offer up the aleax from BoED as a method of gaining a tiny amount of SR. I know it is a bit of a tough fight, but it of an uncommon enough tool that I wanted to mention it.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-18, 10:44 AM

A cure light wounds potion has a market price of 50 gp. What I am not understanding is how the fighter can afford 6 potions. Did I miss something? I will re-read the thread if I did.

Afaik the fighter can get 3 potions, but the health granted from them is enough to survive the average damage from all the wizard's spell-slots (assuming the fighter has an immunity to Power Word Pain through Deformity (Madness)) -- until the wizard is built using Bane Magic (fighter's subtype), allowing them an extra 2d6 on every spell. Then, the wizard has a chance to one-shot the fighter, which seems to be the best way to handle this.

Also, the fighter could use potions of Faith Healing as a strict upgrade to Cure Light Wounds, which is basically just Cure Light, but at max value for the d8 every time, providing the potion was made by someone of the same faith as you.

I would also like to offer up the aleax from BoED as a method of gaining a tiny amount of SR. I know it is a bit of a tough fight, but it of an uncommon enough tool that I wanted to mention it.

So if this fighter can defeat an Aleax of itself, it would gain SR 1, as the Aleax has the same amount of hitdice as the base creature, right? If the fighter and wizard are the same level, the wizard won't be able to fail the check. :/ It is a neat thought though, and if we were using level adjustment races or templates in the exercise, it could be a way to discourage the wizard from taking anything with a level adjustment (as the wizard would then be able to fail the check). With regard to the other stats, the wizard can gain the same initiative bonus as the fighter from the trick, and the +2 AC bonus probably helps the wizard more than the fighter (as the wizard isn't making attack rolls for these effects). However, as you said, it's a tough fight; I'm not sure either character would be able to easily defeat an Aleax. The wizard, using the same tricks it's using on the fighter, wouldn't deal 20 damage on average (its Aleax's hp), so will die most of the time on the following rounds -- and the Aleax has the same spells and feats, so will 100% one-tap the wizard in the following round.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-18, 11:23 AM

Reserves of Power requires Iron Will as a prerequisite.

emeraldstreak

2020-07-18, 11:55 AM

Reserves of Power requires Iron Will as a prerequisite.

True. The best the wizard can do is be a human with Bane Magic(humanoid:human) and Bloodline of Fire. That removes Strongheart halfling option for the wizard.

Hilariously, the fighter can be Strongheart to deny Bane Magic.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-18, 12:19 PM

Also, I don't believe "fire-variant humans" are first party. See here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfFire).

Doctor Despair

2020-07-18, 12:31 PM

Also, I don't believe "fire-variant humans" are first party. See here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfFire).

They're from Unearthed Arcana, as I recall, in the same chapter as LA buy-off.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-18, 12:38 PM

They're from Unearthed Arcana, as I recall, in the same chapter as LA buy-off.

In Unearthed Arcana there are fire-variant elves and fire-variant hobgoblins and specific language forbidding elemental-variant humans.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-18, 01:18 PM

In Unearthed Arcana there are fire-variant elves and fire-variant hobgoblins and specific language forbidding elemental-variant humans.

If the wizard is using a fire-spell, we can take Bind Vestige for Aym instead of toughness anyway.

True. The best the wizard can do is be a human with Bane Magic(humanoid:human) and Bloodline of Fire. That removes Strongheart halfling option for the wizard.

Hilariously, the fighter can be Strongheart to deny Bane Magic.

Halflings are humanoids, too, so the fighter being a Strongheart Halfling would still be vulnerable to the same Bane ability. However, again, in this matchup, the wizard has "Bane Magic (Fighter Type)" of whatever the fighter has, to represent the peak wizard build against that build of fighter.

If we went with Bloodline of Fire, we'd have to use a fire spell, which leaves exclusively Burning Hands. We'd cast it at caster level 3, or 3d4 (reflex half), subject to the fighter's Fire Resist 5. However, in that cast, the fighter can swap out Toughness for Bind Vestige and bind Aym to get fire resist 10. Damage with BoF and Bane Magic on a failed save (which is probably about 50% chance) would be 0-14 (average 4.5) 0-12 fire damage (average 0) + 0-12 regular damage (average 7); on a successful save, it'd be 0-2 (average 0) it'd just be the 012 (average 7) damage. Our average fire damage needs to be at least 11 to consistently do damage through fire resist 10, or something like 3d6 at least.

Is there a better option to boost damage? I think we want to avoid relying on fire damage (due to the fighter's access to Fire Resist 10), so our choice would be to use Bane Magic + something else...

Maybe Shocking Grasp as the chassis and reserves of power? 4d6 on a melee touch attack with a possible bonus to the attack roll if the DM rules the fighter is wearing or carrying "a lot of metal." That's 14 damage, maybe more if we find another + damage feat. ["Reserves of Power has a prereq," he repeated to himself for the fifteenth time...]

Edit: And then there's Spell Resistance again... It has to be Bane Magic + some other damage feat, I think, and I'm not sure there's any other combo at this level that does that much damage.

That puts us back with the negative level build and hoping the wizard passes two checks to defeat the fighter's spell resistance, the fighter fails the check to be fatigued, and the fighter fails all their attack rolls despite the wizard not being able to have Mage Armor.

emeraldstreak

2020-07-18, 01:52 PM

Halflings are humanoids, too, so the fighter being a Strongheart Halfling would still be vulnerable to the same Bane ability. However, again, in this matchup, the wizard has "Bane Magic (Fighter Type)" of whatever the fighter has, to represent the peak wizard build against that build of fighter.

If we went with Bloodline of Fire, we'd have to use a fire spell, which leaves exclusively Burning Hands.

Can't choose just "humanoids" though - must be a humanoid subtype as well.

Kelgore's Firebolt is superior to Burning Hands, no?

Anthrowhale

2020-07-18, 01:53 PM

If the wizard is using a fire-spell, we can take Bind Vestige for Aym instead of toughness anyway.
You need two feats here: Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder as per table 1-9 in ToM which makes human worse than a Fire Elf or a Fire Hobgoblin. There's also "Fireblood dwarves" (Dragon Magic).

Doctor Despair

2020-07-18, 03:48 PM

Can't choose just "humanoids" though - must be a humanoid subtype as well.

Kelgore's Firebolt is superior to Burning Hands, no?

That's true. And if the human doesn't have fire resistance or fire immunity, the bolt would do 3d6 fire + 2d6 (5-30, average 17.5), or 1d6 fire on a failed caster-level check (3-18, average 11.5). Those are pretty decent odds -- and since it doesn't use metamagic or have some stunning-rider like Reserves of Power, the wizard can cast a second one the following turn if the fighter stays up, but fails to down the wizard in the following turn.

This is nice because it means the wizard can one-shot a fighter who isn't resistant to or immune to fire damage. However, if a fighter is resistance to or immune to fire damage, we'd need to find a different spell that would do an average of 8 damage (as the Bane Magic provides an average of 7 damage). This leads to conversation below

You need two feats here: Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder as per table 1-9 in ToM which makes human worse than a Fire Elf or a Fire Hobgoblin. There's also "Fireblood dwarves" (Dragon Magic).

Fair enough; I misremembered how that feat functioned. So either a human with toughness, or a race with fire resistance. Fire Gnomes are straight-out immune to fire damage, though, which should discourage this wizard-build from using it.

Granted, that race would leave the fighter vulnerable to cold spells (and we could try to pump that damage with Snowcasting instead of Bloodline of Fire...), but then the wizard wouldn't beat a fighter without cold vulnerability/with cold resistance/immunity. I'm not sure how we should handle this shuffling of abilities. I suppose the fighter would take the fire resistance or fire immunity unless we can find a similar ability for a different attribute for a decent spell, right?

We know if the wizard goes first, they get to cast at least one spell, as they can avoid attacks of opportunity with their tower shield in the first round. If the fighter goes first, they get at least one attack against a flat-footed opponent (10 + 1 size + 4 tower shield) for a 50/50, or adding 4 more from Mage Armor if we can beat the fighter with one spell. Then, the wizard would get their one spell, and the fighter, should they survive, would get another attack, presumably increasing their winrate to over 50% if they went first.

Ideally, we want the wizard to be able to win on their first turn on average. The fighter already has spell resistance, which makes this... tough to get over a 50% win rate, as even with Bloodline of Fire, we'd fail 25% of the time (or 35% of the time without it).

Wizard goes first: Abrupt Jaunt, full cover, walk out of AOO range, cast spell. Then, caster level check for Spell Resistance (35% fail chance without a boost).
We want to deal average damage to down the fighter here, which still only means he goes down 58% of the time, if I remember correctly.
The figher is now up 63% of the time.
The fighter charges us, negating our ability to jaunt defensively, and gets an attack. Our AC is 10 + 1 (size) + 5 (dex), or 16, so the fighter needs to roll an 11 or higher to break it, which they do 50% of the time; a hit downs us.
The fighter now has won in 32% of our matches; we've won in 38%.
In the remaining 30% of cases, the wizard has to jaunt, and hope the fighter in this matchup doesn't have deformity (tall) to threaten us. Otherwise, we'd have to defensively cast (35% failure...) We have to break spell resistance again, so another 35% chance of failure. Our second spell hopefully finishes the job; assuming the damage kills the fighter, that's ~11% chance the fighter is still up and presumably wins, and ~20% chance the wizard downs him.
That's (assuming the second spell finishes them), a 58% winrate if we deal, on average, enough damage to down the fighter with one spell -- and that's if we won initiative.

If the fighter won initiative, we'd start with an AC of 15, so the fighter would hit us 55% of the time before proceeding to the normal exchange.
The wizard has a 17% chance to survive, break SR, and down the fighter with their first spell.
The fighter has a 6% chance to down the wizard with their second attack (cumulative 61%).
The wizard has a 4% chance to survive to the second spell and break SR (cumulative 21% win chance).
The wizard fails to break SR in the remaining 2% of cases, giving the fight to the fighter. That leaves the fighter with a 63% winrate if they go first, and 42% if the wizard goes first, assuming we don't pump our caster level or do significantly more damage than the fighter's HP on average.

The fighter will probably have 17 hp, 14 hp and resistance to whatever energy type we're using (unless we prepare one of each subtype), or... perhaps 14 hp and a second Soulmeld or a Maneuver that would help the fighter in this scenario. I'm not super familiar with ToB or Incarnum though...

If we swap out the second spell for Mage Armor, we could up our AC. That could swing the fighter's to-hit to 30% success, although it means if we fail the SR check, or fail to roll high enough on damage, with the first spell, the wizard probably just loses, right? We could also use our second feat to pump our damage to increase that 58% chance of downing them, or our caster level, to increase the chance to break SR...

Edit: Actually, the fighter might want to just take the L on the fire resistance and get immunity to mind-affecting again. Since we don't seem to have any non-SR spells that will do enough damage, the fighter's main threat now is Power Word Pain (3d6 damage/round for 4-16 rounds). If the wizard lands one of those, they have a nearly 100% chance of doing enough damage to down the fighter... eventually. SR doesn't help after the initial check to inflict the fighter, either, so the fighter loses their second SR check in the event the wizard passed the first one.

All in all, unless there's some game-breaking soulmeld waiting for the fighter to grab it, I'm thinking the fighter build probably looks like:

Class: Fighter
Race: Human
Feats: Shape Soulmeld (for SR 9), Willing Deformity, Deformity (Madness), Improved Initiative (I'd say combat reflexes, but the wizard can avoid our AOO with the tower shield anyway).
Equipment: Guisarme, Padded Armor, Armor Spikes, 3 potions of Faith Healing

This leaves us with a number of fire-related spells at our disposal to optimize the damage, certainly. Kelgore's Firebolt is a good one. The average 17.5 damage it does has a decent chance to down them; failing to break SR, it still does an average of 10.5, which should force the fighter to drink a potion and tank the second one -- or swing, and be downed by the second one. The fact that the fighter probably has a generous 55% chance to hit, and a spell that downs with average damage has a 58% to down the enemy, suggests that the fighter will choose to attack if we are able to do that much damage.

I think this is still in the wizard's favor overall regardless of the matchup, providing that Bane is on their opponent's type. If they go against a non-human fighter with fire resistance, they'll either not have SR or not have immunity to mind-affecting. Without the SR, our Firebolts will still do an average of 12.5; we also have our level 0 spells to do 2d6 + 1 if they're immune and we can't prepare different spells, or probably like 1d8 + 2d6 if we can prepare a different spell. Without the Madness, we can just spam Power Word Pain and turtle, so it's much more likely they give up the SR.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-18, 04:28 PM

Doctor Despair

2020-07-18, 05:01 PM

Spellward Shirt provides spell resistance 5 unless you get some essentia from somewhere (another feat?), so a wizard with Bloodline of Fire and Bane Magic casting Kelgore's Fire Bolt would have a 5% chance of failing to penetrate, otherwise doing 5d6 (expected 17.5) damage with a reflex for 1/2 damage.

It looks like characters get essentia by character level, not by class level or class feature, at least according to the text on page 50 of Magic of Incarnum. The table itself is on page 19.

Somehow I neglected the reflex save on Fire Bolt. Fire Bolt may not be such a great option then for reliable damage, since that's a 50% chance to fail to down the fighter

Anthrowhale

2020-07-18, 05:41 PM

It looks like characters get essentia by character level, not by class level or class feature, at least according to the text on page 50 of Magic of Incarnum. The table itself is on page 19.

I don't think that's correct. Page 19 says:

Essentia is primarily derived from class levels of meldshaping classes, but can also be gained from other sources.

Fighter is not a meldshaping class, and any source must so indicate. Table 2-1 is the maximum essentia capacity you can invest---that's why the title is "essentia capacity", not some amount of free essentia that you get with level. The text on page 50 disagrees here, but that's an editing error since page 19 is authoritative about what an essentia pool is. (It looks like they miswrote "pool" when they should have said something like "capacity".)

Somehow I neglected the reflex save on Fire Bolt. Fire Bolt may not be such a great option then for reliable damage, since that's a 50% chance to fail to down the fighter
That depends on what the fighter's dexterity is. Do you want to specify stats?

Edit: One thought is that instead of human, you could choose Azurin. That's a human without extra skill points, but with 1 point of essentia.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-18, 09:23 PM

That depends on what the fighter's dexterity is. Do you want to specify stats?

I'd started out with fixed stats as I was considering these builds, but after a certain point (when it seemed, at several points, as if the wizard had a guaranteed win with certain strategies), I started slotting in 18s for both builds whenever stats came up as a hypothetically optimized build (e.g., fighter with 18s in strength, con, and dex, with a wizard with 18s in int, con, and dex, not that the wizard's int is often relevant in the damage-dealing theorycrafting). I suppose at this point the optimal fighter wouldn't have a +5 to dex, as the fighter's primary stats would be con and strength, right? So I suppose the reflex save will fail more often than not... Although there's merit to considering the fighter might tank a different stat.

Actually... as the fighter isn't using AOOs anymore, should the fighter be using a ranged weapon? Then it'd be dex to damage and attacks. I suppose that'd be optimal, right? So 18 in con and dex, tank everything else. Maybe a heavy crossbow for the d10 + dex? It has the long reload time, but the longbow would do 1d8 + dex -1, which is a little sad.

Edit:

Our fighter feat is also improved initiative, which should give the fighter a +3 initiative advantage atm... and we're not using any fighter ACFs. Are there any good ones out there?

Edit: Upon review: it doesn't look like there are any good core figher ACFs for us, as we can't be a Drow (for Hit and Run fighter) and nothing else seems particularly helpful.

Edit: One thought is that instead of human, you could choose Azurin. That's a human without extra skill points, but with 1 point of essentia.

Even in theorycrafting, is it worth playing a build without the resources for effective Craft (Underwater Basketweaving)?

On a more serious note: that's excellent.

Anthrowhale

2020-07-18, 10:45 PM

Actually... as the fighter isn't using AOOs anymore, should the fighter be using a ranged weapon? Then it'd be dex to damage and attacks. I suppose that'd be optimal, right? So 18 in con and dex, tank everything else.

Dex to damage is not the default, so you may want to revise.

Our fighter feat is also improved initiative, which should give the fighter a +3 initiative advantage atm... and we're not using any fighter ACFs. Are there any good ones out there?

Hit & Run fighter (Drow of the Underdark) adds dex to damage vs. flat-footed foes and +2 to initiative.

Anyways, I think we are at an Azurin Str 8/Dex 18/Con 18/Int 8/Wis 8/Cha 8 Hit&Run fighter using padded leather armor (5 gp) and a buckler (15g) for AC 16 with feats:
Shape Soulmeld (for SR 9), Willing Deformity, Deformity (Madness), Improved Initiative (+10 total bonus).
In terms of weapons, tanking your strength nerfs everything except a crossbow, of which a light crossbow (1d8, 36gp) is probably superior as it can be fired every round.

Let's consider a Strongheart Halfling Focused Specialist Conjuration Martial wizard with Str 8/Dex 20/Con 16/Int 12/Wis 8/Cha 8 with a Toad familiar (+3 hp, 10 total) using Mage Armor and a tower shield (30gp) for AC 24 taking feats:
Improved Initiative, Bloodline of Fire, Bane Magic[Human(Humanoid)]
Skills include 2 points in tumble (cross-class) for a tumble bonus of 7.
Spells include: 3xAcid Splash, Lesser Orb of Fire, (int bonus) Nerveskitter, (Specialist) Mage Armor, (focused specialist) Lesser orb of fire.

The wizard will try to win initiative with nerveskitter for a total initiative bonus of +14 succeeding 70% of the time, drop a tower shield (move action), and then fire a lesser orb of fire for 2d8+2d6 damage. This requires a touch attack vs. AC 10 (since the fighter is flat-footed) with an attack bonus of +5, succeeding 80% of the time and dealing an expected 15 damage. Most of the time, this will knock out the fighter.

Not having combat reflexes is pretty devastating to the fighter.

Doctor Despair

2020-07-19, 01:38 AM

Dex to damage is not the default, so you may want to revise.... Hit & Run fighter (Drow of the Underdark) adds dex to damage vs. flat-footed foes and +2 to initiative.

We're Azurin though, not Drow :/ However, as I'm looking at it, it looks like you're right. We are going to want to deal 4-8 damage on average, so the +4 to damage is pretty important. Looks like the fighter should be sticking with maxing con and strength -- guisarme and armor spikes.

Let's consider a Strongheart Halfling Focused Specialist Conjuration Martial wizard

Can you combine ACFs at the same level? I thought you substituted your Wizard 1 level for that ACF's level? Otherwise martial wizard would be nice for improved initiative, for sure.

with Str 8/Dex 20/Con 16/Int 12/Wis 8/Cha 8 with a Toad familiar (+3 hp, 10 total)

Being a Conjuration specialist wizard trades out your familiar, at least if we're taking Abrupt Jaunt. If we were keeping our familiar, wouldn't we want to take a hummingbird familiar and really cement that initiative lead? I agree with the stat distribution though.

using Mage Armor and a tower shield (30gp) for AC 24 taking feats:
Improved Initiative, Bloodline of Fire, Bane Magic[Human(Humanoid)]
Skills include 2 points in tumble (cross-class) for a tumble bonus of 7.
Spells include: 3xAcid Splash, Lesser Orb of Fire, (int bonus) Nerveskitter, (Specialist) Mage Armor, (focused specialist) Lesser orb of fire.

How are we preparing four level 1 spells? We have one level 1 spell by class, 1 by int bonus, and 1 specialist spell, for a total of 3 spells, right? So we'd only get one lesser orb of fire, or forgo mage armor, or forgo nerveskitter. Honestly, I'd forgotten that the fighter gets an extra spell per day, so it's nice that we get to prepare Nerve Skitter or Mage Armor in addition to two fire orbs.

The wizard will try to win initiative with nerveskitter for a total initiative bonus of +14 succeeding 70% of the time, drop a tower shield (move action), and then fire a lesser orb of fire for 2d8+2d6 damage. This requires a touch attack vs. AC 10 (since the fighter is flat-footed) with an attack bonus of +5, succeeding 80% of the time and dealing an expected 15 damage. Most of the time, this will knock out the fighter.

Not having combat reflexes is pretty devastating to the fighter.

Dropping something is a free action I think, but let's set that aside for now.

The fire orb actually does an average of 16 damage (average 9 + average 7), which bests the fighter that forgos toughness in favor of immunity to mind-affecting. That it does 16 damage is also significant, as this out-paces the healing of the Faith Healing potions, meaning that a second one has a better chance to down the fighter than the first one, should a second spell become needed. Fire resistance or toughness was pretty important, it seems.

I'm not sure I agree that combat reflexes was important here. Taking combat reflexes without reach means the wizard can five-foot step to avoid an AOO regardless. If the fighter has a reach weapon instead of the crossbow (swapping 18 dex for 18 strength), the wizard could be pushed out of using Nerveskitter, but gets an effective +5 from the fighter tanking their own dexterity. That means that the wizard could give up Nerveskitter, but use Abrupt Jaunt to pop out of range of the wizard.

On the note of Abrupt Jaunt, if you keep your familiar, it does mean that, against a fighter with reach, you will have to cast defensively if you go second (or first, if they have combat reflexes). The tower shield may provide total cover, but the fighter doesn't use cover rules if their target is adjacent. Hence, Abrupt Jaunt is needed to defeat the broadest amount of fighters. I earnestly think that the wizard has the chance to have an ideal build that defeats most, if not all fighter builds more often than not, but I think having Abrupt Jaunt is important for that strategy.

So, as the wizard has demonstrated an ability to deal enough to down the fighter through SR, it seems like the fighter would want to give up Deformity (Madness) and take Toughness. This allows the fighter the option to drink potions most of the time to try to out-pace the wizard's damage, but allows the wizard to attempt Power Word Pain as a strategy.

Alternatively, we could keep Madness, but give up Shape Soulmeld and go into a race with fire resistance. I'm not sure that's ideal though, as the SR applies to almost all the spells the wizard wants to use (and helps against Fell Drain wizards), and toughness applies to every damaging spell, whereas the fire resistance, while nice, is just 5-10 points towards a specific type of spell.

So let's swap out Madness for Toughness here and see how it looks...

The wizard still goes first 70% of the time (if we can take Martial Wizard in addition to the Conjuration ACF). In those scenarios, the wizard can see that the fighter has a ranged weapon, not a reach weapon, and use Nerveskitter.

The wizard, not knowing whether or not the fighter has combat reflexes, takes a five-foot step and drops their shield as a free action. They cast the orb, hitting 80% of the time and dealing 18 damage 36% of the time. The wizard has won ~29% of the matchups where they went first.

In the remaining 64% of these damage rolls, the fighter stays up with at least 0hp. The fighter has at least 4hp in 36% of cases. This lets the fighter drink a Faith Healing potion, healing for 13, going up to 13-17 depending on the damage the wizard rolled. Alternatively, they could attack, and probably should in cases where there is a greater chance the wizard downs the fighter after they drink their potion than there is that they miss the wizard. The fighter has to break AC 10 +5 (dex) +1 (size), or 16, and has a +5 to hit, or a 50% chance. Given that...

0hp: The fighter drinks a potion (going up to 13), and the wizard fires an orb. 73% chance to down the fighter.
1hp: The fighter attacks, hitting 50% of the time. Upon hitting, the fighter does 4.5 damage -- somewhat pitiful. I'm not sure the fighter gets a second attack, so let's swap that out for a heavy crossbow and 5.5 damage. That not having dex to damage thing sure isn't fun here. The wizard has 7 hp, so that's a 40% chance to down the wizard, or a cumulative 20%. Dismal.
2hp: Fighter attacks, 50% chance to hit, 40% chance to down.
3hp: The fighter drinks a potion (16hp), and the wizard fires an orb. 46% chance to down
4+hp: The fighter drinks a potion (17hp), and the wizard fires an orb. 36% chance to down

If the fighter doesn't down the wizard on average with an attack, things don't look great. They're not much better if the fighter goes first.

The fighter instantly attacks, needing to break AC15 (tower shield, size), and doing so 55% of the time, downing the wizard 40% of the time, or a cumulative 22% of the time... and then the wizard turns around, drops their shield, and touch attacks the fighter more often than not. Even not flat-footed, the wizard just has more dex than the fighter. Again, the fighter is probably left up, but none of the scenarios look very good for the fighter.

I think the fighter wants to go for the melee build. Then, the wizard can take Mage Armor instead of Nerve Skitter and retain their same 70% chance to go first, as they need their immediate action to Abrupt Jaunt anyway. In fact, one might say that if we were trying to find an optimal wizard build into an unknown fighter, having Mage Armor active would be key regardless, so that and two copies of our offensive spell seems pretty standard.

Wizard can Abrupt Jaunt and tower shield for cover upon going first, not knowing whether the fighter has combat reflexes, and the matchup would play out the same, although the fighter has a 94% chance to down the wizard instead of a 20% chance. At the very least, that means that if the wizard goes first...

Wizard misses touch attack: 20% chance
Wizard hits touch attack, but does less than 17 damage: 55% chance of that 80% (44%)

Wizard touches and downs fighter: 29%
Fighter survives the spell with 0hp: ~7%
Fighter survives the spell with 1+hp: 64%

Fighter survives touch attack/spell, and charges the wizard, hitting (AC 20): 40% chance of that 64% (26%)
Fighter hits the wizard, and downs them with that hit: 94% of 40% of 64% (24%)

So here, if the wizard goes first, the wizard has won ~29% of the matchups, and the fighter has won ~24% of the matchups. In 7% of the matchups (0hp), the fighter drinks a potion, and is at 13hp with a 64% chance to go down to the wizard's next spell, so 4% further goes to the wizard, and a generous 3 to the fighter, assuming they hit/down the wizard (which is not a safe assumption): 33 to 27 if the wizard goes first.

If the wizard did 13 or less damage (28% chance), the fighter can down a potion to "undo" the spell and reset the math minus one spellslot. I think the fighter probably drinks if the wizard did 13 or less damage, or, alternatively, if the wizard did 17 damage exactly (9.2%, cumulative 37% chance). This has the effect of bringing the math further in the fighter's favor, as the fighter presumably gains a large advantage (more attacks) if the wizard runs out of spellslots. Bane Magic is the wizard's saving grace that prevents them from just straight-up losing if their second spell doesn't down the fighter, but it'll skew the numbers more in the fighter's favor. How, exactly, I'm not quite sure how to calculate at 1:21am, but presumably it will help reduce the odds that the fighter survives X spells and fails to hit the wizard before going down (i.e., the second-to-last step where the fighter only has a 40% chance to-hit).

If the fighter misses (38% chance), the wizard has an 80% chance to follow-up with a spell that probably has enough damage to finish the fighter, so we can probably use that split. 30 to the wizard, 8 to the fighter, or 63/35.

So what about the remaining 2% of scenarios, where the fighter deals damage, but fails to down the wizard? It's probably pretty close to 80/20, so we probably could hand both to the wizard, bringing the score up to 65/35 if the wizard goes first. It'll be a little more even with potion-chugging, but I'm not sure how much that will skew it; maybe enough to make it an even 65/40, although someone more awake/competent than me can fact-check that. Actually... I neglected that flat-footed negated dex bonuses, but not dex-penalties to AC, so it's higher than an 80% chance to break the fighter's touch AC... Literally all the math was predicated on the 80/20 split, so... Let's say that negates any benefit the potion-chugging has, for the purposes of discussion, as this seems very one-sided anyway. 65/35 split. On the other hand, notably, a fighter leaving a wizard at 0hp may leave the wizard unable to cast spells without taking a point of damage... Ah well. We'll use our already flawed figures for now as a rough estimate of how the matchup looks.

That's 70% of cases, so 45% of total matches for the wizard, and 25% for the fighter.

In the remaining 30%, the fighter goes first and gets an initial attack. The wizard has 19 AC flat-footed, but the fighter isn't charging so it's a 35% chance to hit, and 33% to down the wizard. 33% fighter victories.

Then the wizard can make their touch attack (fighter's AC is 9, not 10...), so an 85% chance to hit, a 36% chance to down the fighter, and a 9% chance to do 17 damage and force the fighter to drink a potion for the lay-up victory (5% to the wizard, 1% to the fighter). 55% chance to leave the fighter up and ready. 24% wizard victories. 41% of combats continue with a feisty fighter. 34% fighter victories; 25% wizard victories.

The fighter charges to attack with a 40% chance to hit, 94% chance to down (higher, accounting for the 2% of damaged, surviving wizard from the first blow), or a cumulative 16% chance the fighter downs the wizard here, winning. We also have another mysterious 2% of wizards surviving damaged. Presumably they aren't the same wizards as before.

In 60% of cases, the fighter whiffs, and the wizard gets another spell, presumably downing if the wizard hits their 85%. That would be 20% to the wizard, and 4% to the fighter, for a cumulative ~54% win rate for the fighter, and 45% for the wizard. Again, potion-chugging will help the fighter here, as well as those damaged wizard we didn't calculate for, so we'll call it 55/45 if the fighter goes first. That's 16.5 for the fighter, and 13.5 for the wizard.

Adding the two statistics together to account for initiative, we have:

Wizard: ~62
Fighter: ~38

Toughness helped the fighter a bit, but "wasting" a feat on spell resistance that they couldn't actually use in this matchup hurt quite a bit. I think this pretty much cements the wizard advantage for the 1v1, as I think this defeats just about every fighter build except ones that intentionally lose to most other wizard builds. For example, fire resist 5 lowers our average damage from 16 to 11, allowing the fighter to much more easily potion-chug. The fighter probably has three potions at most, so they can eliminate three of our spell slots on average. If we open up with a salvo of acid splashes (average 9 damage, so 2 will down the fighter on average), we could have 2 spells up when they're out of potions, which is enough to down the fighter, but assumes we land all our touch attacks and don't roll min damage. If we add something like a crossbow of some sort to the wizard, they can get that damage at least. I think the fire resist fighter has the battle in their favor, but I don't think it's by much, and this wizard beats most other fighters hands-down. Such a fighter could take endurance and diehard as their feats to be extra annoying, but again, I'd suggest that's unreasonable.

... I think the only thing the fighter might have left to get is some other soulmeld or a maneuver to boost their effective HP by more than 3. If there isn't anything like that, I think the thread's tenative conclusion should be that the level 1 wizard can defeat any fighter, providing that wizard has the forethought to select "Bane Magic" against that fighter's subtype. It's a little cheat-sy, as it suggests that the fighter will always be human, which is certainly not the case.

In the absence of a psychic wizard (e.g., if we aren't using Bane Magic), I don't know that a wizard has the damage to burn through any fighter's WBL of potions in the same way that this matchup can. In that sense, the fighter that takes Shape Soulmeld and Toughness, two feats that aren't super unreasonable, has a pretty good chance to beat most wizards. Without the benefit of Bane Magic, we can probably even swap out Toughness for Deformmity (Madness) again to protect from color spray and Power Word Pain again.

As others have said upthread: Madness is a bit of a fluff/rp nightmare for a PC, although it isn't impossible to play for an evil character. You can always train out of it later (if only it were so easy in real life), too. It's also fairly build-agnostic, as any wizard could have access to mind-affecting spells or abilities.

For a fighter without Madness, the SR will help. Notably, I think you keep the soulmeld you shaped even if you train out of the feat (someone mentioned doing that trick for gaining evasion, if I remember correctly), so there's no real reason not to take it for the level 1 advantage and train out when you need the feat for something else.

Overall, I'd say it seems like a generic unoptimized fighter will lose or draw to an unoptimized wizard who takes Color Spray or Power Word Pain as some of their level 1 spells. An average-level build where the fighter gets spell resistance for the early game makes it more even, providing the fighter max'd con (30% failure to break SR, then 25% chance the fighter passes the save, leads to a cumulative 48% failure rate for color spray, or 30% for PWP), but the wizard probably only needs two spells to down the fighter, and abrupt jaunt might be featured in some wizard builds to avoid fighter attacks. A hyper-optimized-level build where the fighter gets the SR and immunity to mind-affecting, maxes con, and spends all their WBL on potions from a caster of their faith is pretty heavily in favor of the fighter (as the wizard gets tricks like using a tower shield to avoid all AOOs, but doesn't have enough damage in their spellbook to down the fighter) -- until the wizard starts to become more "psychic" with their build and takes bane X for the fighter's subtype.

In conclusion: the wizard seems to win at low-levels of optimization, and the highest TO levels of optimization, but the fighter seems to win in the intervening levels. Unless there's some TOB/Incarnum shenanigans for the fighter, I don't foresee this changing much (as the wizard can Abrupt Jaunt/Tower Turtle out of threatened range for Mage Slayer and follow a similar formula, but with better spells).