PDA

View Full Version : DM Help What is an interesting antagonist of each DnD alignments?



MercuryAlloy
2020-07-06, 02:34 PM
I already have antagonists for Goods and LN alignments, but create original antagonist for the rest became a real challenge for me. So I hope, that maybe you have some advices on how to make "classic" alignments of antagonists interesting.

LG – “Justice”/”Good policeman” – the person who try to catch you and bring before court for crimes your commit (perhaps for the greater good, like saving the world) or been falsely accused of. He is noble, he will agree to listen when catches you, but in his eyes your are guilty.

Example: You are a demon hunter, who has only a week to prevent a secret cult plot (that involves destruction of city) from happening in the setting where supernatural is hidden from general public. But just a day before the demon your were fighting exploded entire subway station.
Your antagonist is a head of a special police department that chasing you as a terrorist since he for obvious reasons do not believe in demons and see you as murderer of people and children (and maybe even his wife) that were on a station.
Unfortunately for you he is extremely competent in tracking criminals, but he is also bonded by law and his honour – and that is his biggest weakness if you dare to take advantage from it: you can be sure that he will never give an order to shoot through the hostage and so on.
The real challenge with such antagonist is not to oppose him, but to not lose your humanity for greater good.

NG – “Alternative good” – the person who wishes the best for others but who want to achieve it by the way that interferes with your own intentions.

Example: zombi-apocalypses in closed city and it just a matter of time until the virus breaks out. For your as for mature player it is obvious that you should destroy all zombies and that will bring end for the epidemic and secure humankind. It’s sad but people who become zombi are just as good as dead.
But not everyone shares your opinion. There is a group that thinks that zombies are just ill people – the fact that they are ill doesn’t give you a right to kill them. You should just isolate them until we’ll find cure for it, even if it’s not as secure as killing them.
Of course this group will try to stop you, it will sabotage you vehicle, may be even put you in prison – after all you are trying to murder ill, but innocent people from their point of view – but they will do nothing that will cause your harm or put you in danger – they aren’t murderers themselves after all.
This group is acting from the noble motives. In fact they may be even nobler than yours and that is real challenge of this antagonist – temptation, chance to turn out of the right way even if it’s grim (that’s assuming that there is a right way).

CG – “Non-common good” – good-hearted individualist who do not see any need in common good – i.e. good for group, like new territory for nation, statue for honour of certain city or vengeance against the race of oppressors – unless it benefits members of the group individually. Since in their eyes nation, civilisation, race is just a bunch of people that should be treated separately and nothing more.
So CG antagonist should oppose attempts to gain such “common good”.

Example: You are on an epic quest for the Holy Grail to bring greatness and glory for your country as every loyal knight dreams. However Sir Jinx, the Gray knight, broke his oath of loyalty to the king and search the Grail to end the plague in the land of the Evil lord because “that will help to the people”.
Evil Lord do not deserve having such treasure in his land. Moreover his land is a land of violent and black-hearted people. But Sir Jinx doesn’t care about symbolical meaning of his actions (and in fantasy symbolical meaning may have even bigger effect than in our world) and think that not every single person in EL lands is evil so they deserve help anyway.
The real challenge? – to keep seeing the differences between Sir Jinx, who opposes you and your ideals, and the actual evil and to not treat them as the same – to not became blind fanatic, that kills everything that opposing him.


LN – “Good man, bad law” – the person that isn’t a bad person, and who decide to use some kind of code or law above as a decision guide, but unfortunately he choose a bad law.

Example: Mr. Cranewall is a leader of an armed rebel group of “Authoritarian Anarchists” who deeply believes in its ideas. Ideas are generally good: more equality, freedom, justice, peace, etc. AA think that if everyone will follow their code of law the world will became a beautiful place to live in. But they also believe that they should show no mercy to the enemy of such world – they think that if you oppose them, you oppose to all good things their world should bring, and so it’s completely justified to attack you with all power – you are bad person after all!
So Cranewall believe in such ideas and will follow them until death: he will never lie, he will always share all his goods and the last piece of food with every man in need, he will try to convince you in discussion that their code of laws are actually good and necessary for the word to evolve, knowing that you never had a chance to study his ideology from the first hands and perhaps may heard enemy propaganda or misinterpretation of AA ideas – in other case, assuming you are a good person, you would surely join them, right? He love to play with children, and cooks brilliant raspberry pies if it’s his turn to cook in the camp, but Cranewall and his people leaves rivers of blood on their way.

Win over such antagonist is already a challenge. However the ultimate victory is to win over Cranewall’s mind – make him to admit, that his ways were wrong.

Kyutaru
2020-07-17, 07:48 PM
Another option for Lawful Good is one based on the quote by CS Lewis.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”

Eastern anime and Final Fantasy games have delved into this idea of a Lawful Good organization or leader who does unspeakably horrible things in the name of a better future for everyone, a utopia for everyone of peace and harmony.


As for the other alignments...

True Neutral - "Nature's Wrath" - No one listened to the crazed hermit druid who came in from the mountains prophesying doom for those who abused the land. That is until plagues, living plants, and dire animals began attacking anything that wasn't behind fortified stone walls. Now your party has been tasked with finding the madman and putting a stop to his attempt to reclaim the land from civilization.

Chaotic Neutral - "The Anarchist" - When the fires began springing up all over the city many believed it to be the work of an arsonist. But soon the flyers appeared telling of the coming revolution and the men in masks were seen moving through the city's underbelly. Who they were and what their ultimate goals were remained unclear but one thing was for certain... their demands included the total dissolution of the city council. Whispers and rumors are coming out of the slums of their leader, a man with a burned face and a thirst for freedom recruiting young minds like yourselves into his cause.

Lawful Evil - "The Politician" - No one cared for the Grandmagus or his heartless policies so it was a shock when he won the first mayoral election. And the next, and the next, and the next... now on the eve of his fifth campaign the opponent all were rallying behind met with an unfortunate and ill-timed accident leaving none to contend his reign. We cannot trust the authorities for they are on his payroll. Investigate this so-called "accident" and bring me proof of his involvement. But stay alert for the entire city watch may well be your enemy.

Neutral Evil - "Betrayed Barbie" - Some say she was once the kindest soul and the most beautiful girl in the kingdom, desired by every man of means from here to the borderlands. But the man who finally won her over was every bit as rotten as she has become. What happened on that wedding night was unforgivable and none would deny her the rage that consumed her. But what it let out, the person she has become, her vengeance has consumed her and now I fear it may very well consume us all. There is but one cure that may mend an annihilated heart and spare us from her continued wrath -- the rarest fruit in these lands, the golden apple. One bite is said to purge all memory of pain and suffering in instant. Find the tree in the Garden of Midas and pick the fruit that we might have our princess returned to us before this tragedy befell her.

Chaotic Evil - "The Tyrant" - Long has it been thought that trial by combat was a barbaric right but the nobility clung tightly to their traditions. That is until he came along. The black clad lord stood accused of pillaging his own subjects for personal greed and salting their fields. He resolved to face his accuser in the ancient way and won to everyone's surprise. But what was more surprising still was when he challenged the king for satisfaction and displaced his head. Now he rules with a iron fist and none dare challenge his authority. None save for you brave adventurers.

Dr paradox
2020-07-21, 04:32 PM
Chaotic Neutral: Darwin's General

He's a tactical genius. He's a leader of men. He's a political philosopher, with a very simple creed: When a civilization stops expanding, it begins to die. For him, conquest is life itself. It means new resources, new pools of labor, new glories, new treasures, and ever fewer rivals on the global stage. He has given his people power and luxury unprecedented in their history. They have showered him with triumphs and honors that would make the gods seethe with jealousy. His armies have made a blood-soaked graveyard of half the known world.

There are murmurs that he should seize the throne: the people would cheer him, and who could stand against his might? He has no interest, however. His place is at the tip of the spear. As long as he holds fire in one hand and the world's throat in the other, he is content.

Saintheart
2020-07-23, 02:46 AM
If you're looking for archetypes of various alignments, start here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?448812-Alignment-Handbook-Super-Thread)

A couple of years ago a bunch of GITP folks went a bit nuts writing handbooks devoted to the different alignments. Most of these contained examples of archetypes, as the intent was more or less to try and make them consistent between the various ones out there. You should find a lot of what you're looking for there.

RedMage125
2020-08-01, 04:40 PM
Another option for Lawful Good is one based on the quote by CS Lewis.

“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.”
There's a little more to the quote:
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. They may be more likely to go to Heaven yet at the same time likelier to make a Hell of earth. This very kindness stings with intolerable insult. To be "cured" against one's will and cured of states which we may not regard as disease is to be put on a level of those who have not yet reached the age of reason or those who never will; to be classed with infants, imbeciles, and domestic animals.”

And, funny enough, this very quote DID inspire me to make a LG antagonist.

His name was Alastor, and he was a paladin of Bahamut. The party first met him when they stumbled upon a demon cult in the sewers of a major city (they were solving a grave-robbing mystery, and literally came upon the cultists by accident). He was a bit zealous, so he almost mistook them for cultists. Party Cleric worshiped Bahamut, tho, so that helped. Alastor was already well-known in the city, and hailed as a hero (city had a significant history of problems with fiendish cults). He was given more responsibility, basically a desk job. He became a quest-giver to the party. Their deeds gained them much fame and repute, but also increased his. After returning from one major quest that took them months, they found that Alastor had -by overwhelming popular demand- been voted by the public to replace the Lord Mayor. He instituted a new regime "The White Hand", to eliminate evil. The party's next mission sent them away even longer, when they returned, they found the city in the grip of tyranny. After cracking down on criminals, Alastor started cracking down on "lesser evils" that he saw as harmful to people's souls. He outlawed alcohol and prostitution...but he gave the barkeeps and prostitutes civil service jobs. He cracked down on what he saw as merchants "gouging" prices (but failed to understand the principle of "overhead", so merchants were losing money). Swearing in public was a crime. Malicious gossip was a crime. A child disrespecting their parent in public might be locked in the stocks for an hour...it got to the point where the people of the city would solemnly walk through the streets swiftly.

He had become a tyrant, but never ceased to be Lawful Good.

Kyutaru
2020-08-01, 05:02 PM
He had become a tyrant, but never ceased to be Lawful Good.

I love it, yes moral busybodies are my favorite wrench. The players never expect it because the guy is by all accounts GOOD and a morally upstanding and likable fellow. He's been right in front of your face the entire time. You may have even agree with his policies -- until his policies included purging all the dark elves because they're evil. Then it clicks that this is the line of thinking he's had all along and you were cheering him on.

Lawful Good characters are even easier to use if it's the organization that is corrupt and not the character. Let's say he never goes full tyrant, he's just adhering to the laws and beliefs he's been led astray to think are righteous. Oh no, the dark elves are kidnapping the children, they must be punished. But no, it was never the dark elves at all. That was just propaganda by the Holy Inquisition to promote their extinction so they could seize the underground magical minerals without opposition and deal a blow to their wicked divine rivals at the same time.

Plots and schemes make the best characters come alive.

Grod_The_Giant
2020-08-01, 05:31 PM
In my mind, *the* epitome of Lawful Evil is Darkseid. The guy doesn't just want to conquer and rule, he wants to destroy the very concept of free will (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Life_Equation).

Cluedrew
2020-08-02, 07:20 AM
A child disrespecting their parent in public might be locked in the stocks for an hour...it got to the point where the people of the city would solemnly walk through the streets swiftly.

He had become a tyrant, but never ceased to be Lawful Good.What part of this is good? Good intentions don't account for much when you can look about and see: This isn't working.

Kyutaru
2020-08-02, 07:55 AM
What part of this is good? Good intentions don't account for much when you can look about and see: This isn't working.

It is a common problem of leaders and authority figures that they all too often do NOT see what is going on. Those common folk living in poverty and being abused by the town guards and barely scraping by on their meager wages may know the flaws of the system inherently but the ones passing those laws may genuinely believe they are helping. Obliviousness is the fault of bureaucracy and the king has long since stopped strolling through the streets to get a view of life as a commoner.

Cluedrew
2020-08-02, 09:15 AM
Sure, but "I didn't know" is not a valid excuse when it is your job to find out. He (or anyone with this problem) is either in denial or is just too stupid to grasp it, in which case they are in denial about that. Being in denial about the truth is not a good thing. In other words: I dispute this is still a good person.

If you want to do a less extreme version - say someone is protecting the good of today at the expense of the good of tomorrow - than maybe you could pull it off. But this I feel has gone to far.

I also have some issues on the Neutral Evil one but not in terms of alignment.

Keltest
2020-08-02, 09:52 AM
Sure, but "I didn't know" is not a valid excuse when it is your job to find out. He (or anyone with this problem) is either in denial or is just too stupid to grasp it, in which case they are in denial about that. Being in denial about the truth is not a good thing. In other words: I dispute this is still a good person.

If you want to do a less extreme version - say someone is protecting the good of today at the expense of the good of tomorrow - than maybe you could pull it off. But this I feel has gone to far.

I also have some issues on the Neutral Evil one but not in terms of alignment.

Agreed. Good intentions mean very little when youre inflicting visible harm on people and otherwise making it difficult for them to live their lives. Locking children in the stocks? Thats outright torture, and not particularly subtle about it either. Even interfering with the means of the merchants so that theyre not able to make a profit is directly endangering their livelihoods, and they wouldnt be particularly quiet about that. If he's just ignoring the concerns of the people he's nominally acting for the benefit of, then he's just evil and in denial.

mindstalk
2020-08-03, 10:57 PM
The fanfic Dungeon Keeper Ami has an interesting Good vs. Good conflict.

Ami is Sailor Mercury, a champion, avatar even, of the good fight. The gods of Light of the world she finds herself in are genuinely good: kind, thoughtful, altruistic, and *smart*. Much like Ami herself. So what's the problem?

Ami wants to go home. But her soul has become a conduit of the Dark, and the Light fears she would expose her defenseless world (ours) to untold evil. Ami is... more optimistic, I guess? Also figure they already have a Dark God the Sailors have been fighting. (Queen Metallia.)

The Light won't help her go home. They'd rather keep her safe and deathless in the Light. But they discovered her problem when she came to them in good faith to ask for help, and given that she had no idea how to go home, they decided that letting her go was the right thing. (I suspect that if they had thought Earth was in imminent danger, they would have chosen otherwise.)

And they do help her survive within their own world. They'd still prefer keeping her close, but given that she won't come in, they'll keep her alive and free, even volunteering to hilariously creative lengths to do so.

It works pretty well in the story. Both sides are good in similar ways, smart, and with overlapping if not identical values. But they have imperfect information, and different risk assessments. Ami's assessments are probably biased, but hey.

Hmm, Girl Genius, in the Klaus vs. Agatha conflict, is kind of similar. As people, both are (mostly) good. (Though Klaus is a good example of Good Can Be Grumpy.) But Agatha is a Big Risk, and even more so given the information that Klaus has for most of the story. Agatha doesn't view Klaus as evil (mostly), but she wants her freedom, and thinks she has her risk under control.

RedMage125
2020-08-05, 08:34 PM
What part of this is good? Good intentions don't account for much when you can look about and see: This isn't working.


Agreed. Good intentions mean very little when youre inflicting visible harm on people and otherwise making it difficult for them to live their lives. Locking children in the stocks? Thats outright torture, and not particularly subtle about it either. Even interfering with the means of the merchants so that theyre not able to make a profit is directly endangering their livelihoods, and they wouldnt be particularly quiet about that. If he's just ignoring the concerns of the people he's nominally acting for the benefit of, then he's just evil and in denial.

FFS...it was an hour. I don't know where you get "torture". You're standing in place for an hour.
Alastor's rule WAS harsh, and insisted on people maintaining HIS standard of discipline. The party saw that when they came into town and saw a kid being released by the guard as his time was up. His mother was waiting patiently at the edge of the square. The guard let the kid go, asked him if he was okay. When the youngster sniffled and nodded, the guard smiled, gave him a few coppers, told him to buy himself a baked apple, and mind his ma from now on. The guard was obviously unhappy with the policy, but the zealous enforcers of Alastor's White Hand regime were also posted everywhere. Including in the square where this was going on.

For what it's worth, I had actually been going with the idea that Alastor was falling prey to the insidious whispers of a devil of some kind (likely a succubus, since they were devils in 4e, which is the system I was running during this game) that was disguising itself as an angelic messenger of Bahamut. So all the little rules of his regime (and the harsh punishments) were part of a gradual slippery slope that the players were seeing the later end of. But my players surprised me.

I took over this group from another DM almost a year prior when he got transferred to another base. He usually ran pre-published modules with them. When I first took over, we did a short "evil campaign", in which previous DM got to be a player. Now, when I run Villain campaigns, I give the players the impetus to move the story forward. I, as DM, only describe how the world reacts to them. Heroes are reactionary, villains need to be proactive.
Anyway, this group was PARALYZED by having that much complete freedom. They would spend HOURS debating how to go about any one thing. Well, the Evil game storyline reached its conclusion, the players who were going to remain took me aside and asked for a more "structured storyline" kind of game. I jokingly asked if they were asking me for a "railroad plotline". They thought about it, nodded, and said "that would be fine". I was floored.
So throughout the course of this game (in which I mostly ran a story of my own writing, but found a way to mix in "Madness at Gardmore Abbey" into it), I tried to wean them to the concept of Player Agency. I started giving them multiple options, and made sure I had something prepared for each one. So they gradually got used to the idea that they could make meaningful choices. A lot of the story was written out in advance, but I left room for them to figure out HOW to get the MacGuffin or whatnot.
So when I prepared for their return to seeing Alastor as the ruler of this tyrannical regime, I prepared for a climactic battle. Had Alastor all statted out. Had this Angel/Devil swap thing I was gonna pull halfway through the fight. If Alastor survived, thought about having him come back later as a Blackguard (convinced that he was betrayed by the Goodness he fought for and convinced he was right, etc.).
So the party gets back to town, sees how horrible the city has gotten. They go to confront Alastor (as expected). But then, I get a shock. The party Fighter (a dragonborn) worships Bahamut, and used to really like Alastor. The party Cleric (deva) is a cleric OF Bahamut, and wants to save Alastor. They plan to talk with him. The party Cleric asks if they can manage it with some kind of Skill Challenge. They'd rather save him and redeem him than see him go down as a tyrannical villain.
I was absolutely shocked, pleasantly so. I completely threw out the whole "under diabolic influence" idea, because these guys surprised me with an original plan and initiative, and I wanted to reward it. So when they confronted Alastor, he initially got really angry at their "impertinence" (also at their failure on the mission he sent them on, but not relevant right now), and he DID attack them (hey, I statted the guy up, didn't want it to go completely to waste). So it was a Skill Challenge AND a combat scene. And once Alastor was Bloodied AND they had the requisite amount of successes (which was mostly about the Cleric convincing him that Bahamut would not approve of his regime, stuff like that), I had him surrender. All of it. He disbanded the White Hand, stepped down from power, and went on a sabbatical to ponder his own sins (pride and arrogance among them), and try to live more in keeping with the teachings of Bahamut.

Cluedrew
2020-08-07, 08:00 AM
All of it. He disbanded the White Hand, stepped down from power, and went on a sabbatical to ponder his own sins (pride and arrogance among them), and try to live more in keeping with the teachings of Bahamut.This did a lot more to show he is probably actually good than "it was only an hour". I have an urge to write more but really for me the critical difference is that he was able to see that it wasn't working (maybe with some help) and regret his decisions.