Core only rogue build

[Curelomosaurus]

I'm working on a core only TWF gnome rogue/5 assassin/5 shadowdancer/1 who's going to focus on using HiPS to melee enemies without being seen. I'm currently picking out equipment, and I'm stuck between a few ideas.

- Sword (or dagger) of subtlety is a nice +4 attack and damage if I can get a sneak attack in, but it's a hefty 22k.

- Seeking is only a +1 bonus to ignore all miss chances while attacking, and it works on daggers (even in melee).

-Wounding is +2 for a nice 1 Con damage per hit.

Buying a seeking dagger of subtlety and a seeking, wounding dagger would cost me 60k go (basically all my gold), and I want to spend around 20k gp on shadow armor and boots of elvenkind.

EDIT: Is there a way for non-monks to get magic unarmed attacks? I'm gonna be facing a high-level monk early on and I wanna beat him at his own game. :smallbiggrin:

Also, unrelated question: does uncanny dodge work if you're stunned?

[gijoemike]

Subtletly is +1 for +4 att/Dam. You are paying all that money for an extra +3 att/dam that is only usable with sneak attacks. Is your to hit hurting so badly you need that +3?

Seeking can only be applied to range weapons. Are you going to throw that dagger while in 5ft reach?

To have a magic unarmed strike you need to enchant a gauntlet.

Do you have any way around enemies immune to crits? Or High DR? What materials are those weapons made of?

[Curelomosaurus]

Seeking applies to ranged weapons, not ranged attacks, so meleeing with seeking daggers works.

The campaign's basically undead, constructs, and see, but my DM's giving me free truedeath/demolition augment crystals to make up for it.

[Daefos]

Seeking applies to ranged weapons, not ranged attacks, so meleeing with seeking daggers works.


Melee and Ranged Weapons
Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.
A dagger is a melee weapon. Throwing one would count as a ranged weapon attack, but that doesn't mean the dagger is intrinsically a ranged weapon just because you can throw it.

Would you argue that Point-Blank Shot applies to melee attacks with a dagger? If not, then I don't see how you can argue that Seeking would apply to melee attacks with one either.

[Troacctid]

I'm working on a core only TWF gnome rogue/5 assassin/5 shadowdancer/1 who's going to focus on using HiPS to melee enemies without being seen. I'm currently picking out equipment, and I'm stuck between a few ideas.
Any reason why you're going into shadowdancer when you're only a couple levels away from getting HiPS from assassin? Seems costly, feat-wise.

Make sure you're using forest gnome, not rock gnome. They're both core, but forest gnome is much better.


EDIT: Is there a way for non-monks to get magic unarmed attacks? I'm gonna be facing a high-level monk early on and I wanna beat him at his own game. :smallbiggrin:
Amulet of mighty fists, 6,000 gp.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

A dagger is a melee weapon. Throwing one would count as a ranged weapon attack, but that doesn't mean the dagger is intrinsically a ranged weapon just because you can throw it.

Would you argue that Point-Blank Shot applies to melee attacks with a dagger? If not, then I don't see how you can argue that Seeking would apply to melee attacks with one either.

Actually, there's a strong case to be made that that's the case. I can't remember the exact rule, but the Rules Compendium states that thrown weapons are considered both melee weapons and ranged weapons simultaneously. IIRC there was another way to interpret the sentence, but referring to thrown weapons seemed the most logical and consistent to me.

[gijoemike]

I will copy and past from several different online references.

From D&D Wiki - a terrible reference
Dagger
Simple Light Thrown Melee
Critical: 19–20/×2
Range Increment: 10 ft.
Type: Piercing or slashing
Hardness: 10


From D20SRD - more reliable reference
Light Melee Weapons
Dagger 2 gp 1d3 1d4 19-20/×2 10 ft. 1 lb. Piercing or slashing

Lets move to Pathfinder's entry for dagger on the pfsrd
Dagger
Cost 2 gp Weight 1 lb.
Damage 1d3 (small), 1d4 (medium) Critical 19-20/x2 Type piercing or slashing
Range Increment 10 ft. (thrown)
Category light Proficiency simple
Weapon Groups light blades, thrown, tribal

A dagger has a blade that is about 1 foot in length.

Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on Sleight of Hand skill checks made to conceal a dagger on your body (see Using Skills).


Does anyone see the word RANGED in any of that text? The word ranged appears for bows, crossbows and the like but not thrown weapons. Ranged weapons are a specific category/group. Maybe you could add it to a dagger but it would only work when it was thrown. That is GM approval though.

[Eladrinblade]

Wounding is nice, but its -1 con per hit, so you'll have to hit an enemy 1-2 times to drain their HD in hp. Since you should be sneak attacking as much as possible, that's probably not going to really be worth it, at least not at your level, unless you're fighting some really hefty enemies.

edit: look at monk's belts

[Curelomosaurus]

Any reason why you're going into shadowdancer when you're only a couple levels away from getting HiPS from assassin? Seems costly, feat-wise.


Due to some campaign weirdness, I'm going to be at 11th level for a significant amount of time, so I'm taking HiPS now.



Make sure you're using forest gnome, not rock gnome. They're both core, but forest gnome is much better.

Amulet of mighty fists, 6,000 gp.

Thanks!

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Does anyone see the word RANGED in any of that text? The word ranged appears for bows, crossbows and the like but not thrown weapons. Ranged weapons are a specific category/group. Maybe you could add it to a dagger but it would only work when it was thrown. That is GM approval though.


Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that aren’t effective in melee. Some melee weapons can be thrown, bridging these two categories.


There is definitely some ambiguity as to whether the first sentence refers only to thrown weapons that aren't effective in melee or all thrown weapons, but the second sentence definitely implies that thrown melee weapons are also ranged weapons. Regardless, that thrown weapons are also ranged weapons is definitely a valid interpretation of the quote, even if it isn't the only possible interpretation.