Ioun Stones and hiding

[Biggus]

It seems pretty obvious that having a bunch of stones orbiting your head would be a major hindrance to remaining unseen, but as far as I know there's no Hide penalty associated with Ioun Stones. Is this addressed anywhere? If not, how do you play it?

Of course, a stealthy character could just put their Ioun Stones away before they went spying. But that leads to another question: what type of action is it to take one out of its orbit (or to put it into it, for that matter)?

[Thurbane]

No RAW as far as I know, but the DM might apply a small circumstance penalty if he sees fit.

[el minster]

if they don't glow or make sound I don't see the problem

[Thurbane]

if they don't glow or make sound I don't see the problem

True.

If carrying 10 foot poles, portable battering rams or a cat familiar sitting on your shoulder doesn't impose a penalty, then Ioun stones probably shouldn't be an issue.

In regards to the other question in OP, lets have a look:


These crystalline stones always float in the air and must be within 3 feet of their owner to be of any use. When a character first acquires a stone, she must hold it and then release it, whereupon it takes up a circling orbit 1d3 feet from her head. Thereafter, a stone must be grasped or netted to separate it from its owner. The owner may voluntarily seize and stow a stone (to keep it safe while she is sleeping, for example), but she loses the benefits of the stone during that time. Ioun stones have AC 24, 10 hit points, and hardness 5.

No specific action called out, but I would assume it would default to manipulation.


[Action Type] (manipulation): Activating this type of item requires some physical manipulation of it, such as moving an immovable rod or pulling a patch from a robe of useful items. This movement is similar to the somatic component of a spell, in that you need a free hand to perform the action. Activating a manipulation item provokes attacks of opportunity.

Which might be a standard action?

However in Actions in Combat, the action to Draw or Sheathe a Weapon is a Move Action. Draw doesn't attract an AoO, whereas Sheathe does. Pick Up An Item is also a move action, and attracts an AoO.

I guess its a DM call - personally, I'd rule move action, with an AoO, although that may be a bit harsh on the player.

[the_tick_rules]

it's resource intensive but a permanent invisibility spell cast on them solves this pretty well.

[Psyren]

One suggestion if your GM is on the fence about this - Pathfinder has magic items you can craft or buy called Wayfinders (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/wayfinder-standard/) (a magic compass basically) that you can stick your ioun stones in and still gain their benefits, even if said compass is in your pocket or belt pouch. Some of these not only allow you to get the normal benefit of your ioun stone, but also unlock additional powers from the stone or enhance its existing ones.

[Thurbane]

Interestingly, I was reading up on Ioun Stones before I saw this thread, and came across a third party one (Pale Yellow Prism Ioun Stone; Kobold Quarterly issue 6) which indicates true north by giving off a flash once each time it orbits.

The description says the flash gives the owner a -1 penalty to Hide checks, unless stowed.

Now, I know 3rd party material is by no means a citation, but if an Ioun Stone that specifically flashes all the time only gives a -1, I'd tend to rule that others impose no penalty at all.

[Biggus]

If carrying 10 foot poles, portable battering rams or a cat familiar sitting on your shoulder doesn't impose a penalty, then Ioun stones probably shouldn't be an issue.

A portable battering ram doesn't impose a penalty on its own, but it weighs 20lbs and carrying a medium or heavy load does impose a penalty, so unless your stealthy character is also very strong it substantially limits what else you can carry.

Fair point about the 10ft pole though, tbh I'd suspected the answer was going to be "they don't impose a Hide penalty, but then look at all these other things that don't either".



However in Actions in Combat, the action to Draw or Sheathe a Weapon is a Move Action. Draw doesn't attract an AoO, whereas Sheathe does. Pick Up An Item is also a move action, and attracts an AoO.

I guess its a DM call - personally, I'd rule move action, with an AoO, although that may be a bit harsh on the player.

Yeah, I'd been leaning towards a move action, not sure about the AoO though.


One suggestion if your GM is on the fence about this - Pathfinder has magic items you can craft or buy called Wayfinders (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/r-z/wayfinder-standard/) (a magic compass basically) that you can stick your ioun stones in and still gain their benefits, even if said compass is in your pocket or belt pouch. Some of these not only allow your to get the normal benefit of your ioun stone, but also unlock additional powers from the stone or enhance its existing ones.

Very interesting, thank you. I'd been thinking of maybe homebrewing an item you can slot them into, I might well use these instead.


Interestingly, I was reading up on Ioun Stones before I saw this thread, and came across a third party one (Pale Yellow Prism Ioun Stone; Kobold Quarterly issue 6) which indicates true north by giving off a flash once each time it orbits.

The description says the flash gives the owner a -1 penalty to Hide checks, unless stowed.

Now, I know 3rd party material is by no means a citation, but if an Ioun Stone that specifically flashes all the time only gives a -1, I'd tend to rule that others impose no penalty at all.

-1 seems quite generous unless it's a barely-visible flash of light. Or maybe they orbit your head really slowly? That might explain the lack of a hide penalty...

[Amiria]

As a homebrew solution to hide my small flotilla of Ioun Stones, I developed a little spell a few years ago.

Amiria's Ioun Invisibility -> Sor/Wiz 2nd level Illusion (glamer), makes one Ioun Stone per caster level invisible to everyone except the caster for a duration of days / level.

[TheCount]

there is also the ioun blade from A&EG too.

[Thurbane]

-1 seems quite generous unless it's a barely-visible flash of light. Or maybe they orbit your head really slowly? That might explain the lack of a hide penalty...

Oddly enough there's another new Ioun Stone in the same article (Pale Yellow Prism) that gives off illumination as a sunrod (30 ft bright, 60 ft shadowy), which gives no hide penalty. Like I said, 3rd party isn't the best citation of RAW, but I still thought it was interesting.


there is also the ioun blade from A&EG too.

Nice find! Stuff from A&EG is always surprising me, even though I've read it many times. There's a lot of stuff I've missed or forgotten about.

[the_tick_rules]

I like those wayfinders. it's always seemed a bit dangerous ioun stones being so vulnerable, especially considering how expensive some of them are.

[Tiktakkat]

If you are going to go Pathfinder, just get a Western Star Ioun Stone.
It is a hat of disguise plus it turns all your ioun stones invisible when disguised.
You do not even have to go all out on such a disguise. Just do something cosmetic, like make your shirt the loudest Hawaiian shirt in existence, or change your footgear so nobody knows you are wearing socks with sandals.

While in Pathfinder, there are a number of other items that hold ioun stones like the ioun gauntlet, ioun spite bracers, and the wonderfully named and themed headband of twisted intellect. Note that no such items and wayfinders "stack" according to the rules for wayfinders.
For the ioun spite bracers, they even steal other people's ioun stones.

There are also some Pathfinder 3rd party (does that make the 4th or 5th party to 3E?) ioun stone holding items.

Finally, still with Pathfinder, just dig up the rules for surgically implanting ioun stones in your flesh and never worry about them getting stolen until you are dead. But definitely expect the rest of the party to loot your corpse.

[Troacctid]

I'm not sure why ioun stones would be any worse for stealth than, say, a hat.

[Thurbane]

I'm not sure why ioun stones would be any worse for stealth than, say, a hat.

Well, maybe this kind of hat:

https://www.oshonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/australian-770.jpg

:smalltongue:

Actually, that reminds me, there was a thread here a while back where someone was suggesting Spot penalties if you had enough Ioun stones orbiting your head.

[el minster]

but can't they just orbit slightly above thier head

[Arkhios]

Hiding doesn't make you invisible, or even translucent like Stealth does in games like World of Warcraft. When you hide, you hide in or behind something. Hiding doesn't care if you have a whole solar system of ioun stones orbiting your head. Your check result determines how well you are hidden, including your gear and miniature solar system.

Even Hide in Plain Sight doesn't make you vanish and become invisible like the spell. Hide in Plain Sight lets you make hide check even when you're being observed (that is, looked at by someone or something).

HOW you're hidden exactly hidden is abstract, and up to you and your DM's interpretation.

[Psyren]

Hiding doesn't make you invisible, or even translucent like Stealth does in games like World of Warcraft. When you hide, you hide in or behind something. Hiding doesn't care if you have a whole solar system of ioun stones orbiting your head. Your check result determines how well you are hidden, including your gear and miniature solar system.

Well yes, which is why people are asking whether a check penalty might apply. Obviously if you succeed at hiding even with the penalty, you've hidden in such a way as to account for the "solar system."

[Troacctid]

Well, maybe this kind of hat:

https://www.oshonews.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/australian-770.jpg

:smalltongue:

Actually, that reminds me, there was a thread here a while back where someone was suggesting Spot penalties if you had enough Ioun stones orbiting your head.
Sorry, do ioun stones make noise? As far as I know, an ioun stone is just a little crystal that hangs out around your head. It doesn't even glow or anything. I'm kind of baffled as to why anyone would think they'd hinder stealth at all.

[Psyren]

Sorry, do ioun stones make noise? As far as I know, an ioun stone is just a little crystal that hangs out around your head. It doesn't even glow or anything. I'm kind of baffled as to why anyone would think they'd hinder stealth at all.

Making noise doesn't really relate to Spot in any case.

I certainly wouldn't apply any kind of penalty (except perhaps if there's a creature that can more easily see things that are moving?) but I can see why others might, especially if you have a swarm of them orbiting you.

[Arkhios]

Well yes, which is why people are asking whether a check penalty might apply. Obviously if you succeed at hiding even with the penalty, you've hidden in such a way as to account for the "solar system."

I don't think it's necessary to impose any more penalties than the rules already account for. It's inane hair splitting, in my honest opinion.

[Psyren]

I don't think it's necessary to impose any more penalties than the rules already account for. It's inane hair splitting, in my honest opinion.

Most of the time I would agree. I did however give one example of a situation where I might apply a circumstance penalty.

[nedz]

This is just another thing with Ioun Stones which gets hand-waved away.

I think a Gust of Wind or Air Elemental Whirlwind or ... should likely scatter them - but when did you ever see that happen ?

[RSGA]

This is just another thing with Ioun Stones which gets hand-waved away.

I think a Gust of Wind or Air Elemental Whirlwind or ... should likely scatter them - but when did you ever see that happen ?

That sounds like a thing that could happen on a sufficiently failed saving throw.

[the_tick_rules]

a 30k stone flying away in the wind, that would ruin a day. hope someone has discern location.

[Troacctid]

This is just another thing with Ioun Stones which gets hand-waved away.

I think a Gust of Wind or Air Elemental Whirlwind or ... should likely scatter them - but when did you ever see that happen ?
Once the ioun stone is orbiting you, it can't be removed except by physically grasping or netting it. Wind would just push it into a different orbit.

[Biggus]

Sorry, do ioun stones make noise? As far as I know, an ioun stone is just a little crystal that hangs out around your head. It doesn't even glow or anything. I'm kind of baffled as to why anyone would think they'd hinder stealth at all.

Because moving objects draw the eye more than stationary objects. As I said earlier in the thread, the only possible sense I can make of it is that they drift round the head very slowly, in which case they wouldn't make much difference.

[Troacctid]

Because moving objects draw the eye more than stationary objects. As I said earlier in the thread, the only possible sense I can make of it is that they drift round the head very slowly, in which case they wouldn't make much difference.
You can move up to half your speed while hiding without taking any penalty at all for it, and that's your whole body, not a few tiny rocks.

[Arkhios]

Because moving objects draw the eye more than stationary objects. As I said earlier in the thread, the only possible sense I can make of it is that they drift round the head very slowly, in which case they wouldn't make much difference.

I'm sorry if I'm offending you somehow, but honestly, I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill.

[Biggus]

You can move up to half your speed while hiding without taking any penalty at all for it, and that's your whole body, not a few tiny rocks.

You can move up to half your speed, which is about 1.7mph for most characters, ie very slowly. While the text in the DMG doesn't give any indication as to what speed ioun stones rotate at, the accompanying picture certainly makes it look like they're orbiting fairly rapidly, so I always assumed that was the case. As I've said, maybe that was wrong and the picture is just misleading.

An analogy: a whole sky full of clouds drifting slowly by isn't very noticeable but a spinning top on a table two or three metres away is.

[RSGA]

Let's see how fast 1.7 miles an hour is in inches per six seconds, then divide by 25 (average human head circumference rounded up to a multiple of 5 for some room) and that should get us about how many times it will go fully around a human head in a turn. That's 107712 inches per hour, then divide by sixty to get 1795.2 inches per minute.

Move the decimal over by one to go from per minute to per round, and you have 179.52 inches traveled per round. Divided by 25 and rounded down that means that around a larger than average human head, an Ioun Stone would go 7 head circumferences in one combat turn while still staying at the speed most characters can move without a penalty to their stealthyness. If you wanted to be more exact it's 1.1968 revolutions per second for our larger than average adult human head.

If you assume it's moving closer around the head, like say a half-inch, or don't round up to a multiple of 5, then the size differences in the adult human male and adult human female head can actually move it closer or over 8 revolutions per turn. For an average adult human male head, a half inch of space would give 7.81 and average adult human female gives 8.08. I'm going to end this here, because I feel safe in saying that this is more detail that anyone really needed. I probably could have stopped at more than once per second with an estimation of Close but Probably Not Hitting All Your Hair.