high DPR sword and board build.

[Banderhobb]

Greetings, long time lurker that finally decided to make an account.

Came up with this build and wanted opinions, good and bad, taking levels in order.
Race, half elf +1 DEX, +1 WIS and +2 CHA
Ability scores point buy: 9/14/14/8/14/17

1 Fighter: dueling, CON saves.
2 Hexblade: CHA to attack/damage with one handed and hexblade curse
3-7 Fighter Echo knight: Elven accuracy and +2 CHA and all other fighter goodies.
8-10 Ranger Gloom: Extra attack on round 1 in combat, defense style and a couple of spells.
11-20 Sorcerer Dragon(maybe?): more hp than normal sorcerer, 2 ASI´s into CON, melee spell cantrips, quicken spell and up to level 5 sorcerer spells.

This caracter spending resources can do 8 attacks + bonus action GFB or BB, can hex people for 19-20 criticals with + prof to damage.
Also access to level 5 spell casting and a level 6 spell slot.

Anything wrong with the build? Only thing that would annoy me is delaying 2nd attack by one level but would rather do that than live with a 14 in attack stat until level 6 or 7.
Perhaps Divine soul sorcerer would be better for access to some cleric spells like spiritual weapon, spirit guardians and the like?

[Willie the Duck]

Overall, I don't know. It seems fine-ish. Lots of screwing around to get a lot of attacks which would be at tri-vantage if they otherwise would be at advantage, but not many native ways of generating advantage until at least level 10 (fighting creatures in darkness who rely on darkvision works... at level 10. At level 13+ presumably you will have sorcerer spells which could help).

Like a lot of these 3-4 class builds, you have to look at every level and think "okay, level 4. What am I doing, and what would a straight up fighter, paladin, or hexblade be doing at this level?" and average the red and black ink across your actual time playing.

My gut tells me that this build would feel very very satisfying at a very specific point in the play experience, and the rest of the time working towards that point and later being a adequate but not outstanding high level gish.

[Dork_Forge]

If the aim is high damage Sword and Board build then that many levels of Sorcerer is unnecessary and Echo Knight isn't doing much for your damage (your Con is only +2 for most of the usually played levels, it does let you Nova a little harder though). Fighter wise you'll be better off with something like Battlemaster to tag on that maneuver dice damage and effects or Samurai to leverage at will advantage with EA.

I'm a little confused why so many levels of Sorcerer unless you're going to upcast Shadow Blade (which if you're committing that many levels, you should). Something to be aware of is that you're going to be a little heavy on bonus actions between HBC and quickening spells. It's worth keeping in mind that you have access to Hex/Hunter's Mark for stacking damage onto your nova round.

Overall though it seems a little at odds with itself, your investing heavily into Charisma whilst still needing 3 other stats at decent levels (which is gouging your Echo Knight ability for most fo your career).

Suggestions:

-Go straight Fighter 5 (6 if you want the ASI so that you pick up Extra Attack at the same time as the other martials and you're not delaying your first ASI (I'd also consider BM over Echo Knight unless you do a stat overhaul)

-You're not really getting much out of Sorcerer unless you have a specific plan in mind, you only need 3 levels to Quicken SCAGtrips, some of those Sorcerer levels could be pushing you towards a 3rd Fighter attack, which would make this build better across a day instead of focusing on once per short rest novas (though it also improves that)

-You're spreading your stats thin to pull off Hexblade Cha SAD, you need at least a 14 in Dex to max medium armor anyway, so why not just pump Dex instead (and later take the medium armor master feat to leverage it), you're not really using your spellcasting mod for anything as you're currently building and Dex is a better stat to max out overall unless you're in a social heavy game.

[Citadel97501]

Personally, I think that your spreading out a bit too much but I would say that Paladin is going to be a lot better than Fighter with this build as your getting access to smite. I do love the Echo Knight though.

[Man_Over_Game]

Personally, I think that your spreading out a bit too much but I would say that Paladin is going to be a lot better than Fighter with this build as your getting access to smite. I do love the Echo Knight though.

That was my thought. You would need a 13 in:

Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, Charisma;

On the other hand, people have effectively pulled off very similar combos with various levels of Paladin/Sorcerer/Warlock, or other alpha-strike builds with Samurai as the foundation. Personally, for sword-and-board DPS builds, I like Horizon Walker with a whip - mediocre DPS but insane mobility.

[CTurbo]

Champion Fighter 11/War Cleric 9 is a very simple very high DPR S&B build.

Take Dueling and then Defense style. Wear Plate and max out Str and Wis. This setup doesn't really even need any feats, but Warcaster and Sentinel would be nice as well as Magic Initiate for Booming Blade.

Start Vhuman for 16 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 16 Wis, 8 Cha and take Sentinel

You get 5 ASIs which 4 of them would go to maxing Str and Wis and the 5th goes to Warcaster.

21 AC and three attacks each round with a conditional bonus action and reaction attack. Using Holy Weapon, all your attacks would all deal 3d8+7 damage. That's a reliable 9d8+21 damage each round with 10% chance of critting each attack and of course on a perfect round with an action surge, you'd hit for 24d8+56 not factoring in any crits. I don't know how this stacks up against a min-maxed smiting Paladin but it seems pretty good. If you could get Booming Blade, your one reaction attack would hit really hard.


Alternatively, a straight level 20 Eldritch Knight Fighter upcasting Shadow Blade would be consistently hitting for 12d8+28 each round with no other resources.

[DarknessEternal]

Use a staff or spear instead with polearm mastery for 2 extra attacks per turn.

[Willie the Duck]

Use a staff or spear instead with polearm mastery for 2 extra attacks per turn.

Reaction attacks with PAM are never as frequent as one would hope. Other than that, a good suggestion (although it does compete with any other bonus action actions, such as the sorcerer-induced quickened SCAGtrip, and it is important to note that these will not be doubled with action surge).

[CheddarChampion]

Good stuff

How about changing the Champion/War Cleric to an Eldritch Knight/War Cleric?
You'd have the spell slots of a 12th level cleric and could cast Shadow Blade with a 5th level slot. 3 base attacks, +1 attack from War Priest, each dealing 4d8+7, +1d8 from Divine Strike (once on your turn)... 17d8+28?

You also would have the old EK trick of Hold Person/Monster + Eldritch Strike.
Heck, you could drop V. Human and Sentinel in favor of a Half-Orc for extra crit damage if you were so inclined.

[Benny89]

Unless that build starts with higher level then it's not good to level up from level 1. It reaches high number of attacks later but overall it has nothing outstanding - no caster progression, not features, delayed fighter stuff, 1 level Hexblade doesn't really work with anything. Advantage generation comes later.

If you want Sword n Board DPR I recommend Eldricht Knight 11/9 War Wizard or even just 8 Eldricht Knight/12 War Wizard. Using Mage Armor + Shadow Blade will give you very nice DPR + War Caster and Booming Blade on OAs. Action Surge can boost your Nova. DEX fighter with high AC from shield and Mage Armor. Then War Wizard gives you AC boost on reaction and spells like Haste, Fireball, Counterspell etc. and eventually you get Tenser (though it's level 19 but still) which is huge DPR boost in melee. 11/9 will give you 3 attacks with Shadow Blade, 5 with Action Surge. You will still get Haste and other good stuff.

Another one is 1 Hexblade/11 Vengeance Paladin with PAM. Though it's bonus action heavy build, but with Curse + VOE + Hex/Hunter's Mark + Dueling Style you can deal up to (assuming 20 CHA) 3d6 + 3d8 (IDS) + 2 x (2d6 + 11) + 1d4 + 11, which is nice 66,5 DPR without smites added to attacks. It requires some roleplaying tactic (like Cursing or VoE enemy boss in dialogue before fight starts) and running Hex/HM from higher slot for 8h duration but when executed well it is really nice. With EA you also attack with 3xd20 and 19-20 crit so smites can really hurt!

Another one would 1 Hexblade/11 Devotion Paladin. Simillar stuff with running Hex but you only use first turn for Curse + Sacred Weapon and then damage is same as above but without so big crit change and accuracy (EA > flat bonus from Sacred Weapon), but you can still deliver a lot of damage.

Last option is classic Sorcadin using Haste + Quicken BB to attack up to 4 time per turn with Smites attached to each attack or using Greater Ivisibility + EA to attack 3 times but with triple d20.

Oh, one more: 1 Hexblade/Sword Bard using Sword + Shield + Simulacrum Haste + Greater Steedf + Tenser Transformation can deal tons of damage but that is level 15+ combo so also very late game, and it would work with dual wielding better anyway.

[Yakk]

You don't get "high" DPR on a sword and board build without extra damage dice per tap. More taps isn't enough for high DPR, because high DPR is relative, and you compete with builds that have the same number of taps and have +10 damage per tap from GWM/SS.

The baseline DPR build is the GWM Battlemaster using its maneuver dice for precision to counter the -5 to hit mostly.

Level 1: 10 per hit x1 (5 DPR/(level+1))
Level 4: 21 per hit x1 (4.2 DPR/(level+1))
Level 5: 21 per hit x2 (7 DPR/(level+1))
Level 6: 22 per hit x2 (6.3 DPR/(level+1))
Level 10: 22 per hit x2 (4 DPR/(level+1))
Level 11: 22 per hit x3 (5.5 DPR/(level+1))
Level 19: 22 per hit x3 (3.3 DPR/(level+1)) (disappointing)
Level 20: 22 per hit x4 (4.2 DPR/(level+1))

So I'd say "high damage" at-will _floor_ is around 4 DPR * (level+1).

[Dork_Forge]

You don't get "high" DPR on a sword and board build without extra damage dice per tap. More taps isn't enough for high DPR, because high DPR is relative, and you compete with builds that have the same number of taps and have +10 damage per tap from GWM/SS.

The baseline DPR build is the GWM Battlemaster using its maneuver dice for precision to counter the -5 to hit mostly.

Level 1: 10 per hit x1 (5 DPR/(level+1))
Level 4: 21 per hit x1 (4.2 DPR/(level+1))
Level 5: 21 per hit x2 (7 DPR/(level+1))
Level 6: 22 per hit x2 (6.3 DPR/(level+1))
Level 10: 22 per hit x2 (4 DPR/(level+1))
Level 11: 22 per hit x3 (5.5 DPR/(level+1))
Level 19: 22 per hit x3 (3.3 DPR/(level+1)) (disappointing)
Level 20: 22 per hit x4 (4.2 DPR/(level+1))

So I'd say "high damage" at-will _floor_ is around 4 DPR * (level+1).

That seems particularly high for at will damage, especially when the baseline build you present is burning a resource to achieve reliability, it also completely excludes a sword and board Fighter (Dueling) from achieving the floor of high damage at level 1. In fact the only one handed damage dealer that looks to have any hope of achieving this would be a Rogue, which ages out very quickly as the formula expects a 4 DPR increase every level. In terms of at will damage, a Fighter with GWM seems like it would be on the higher end as they're the best suited to actually use that combo at will, due to getting the most attacks in the game).

[Yakk]

Yes, a level 1 fighter with a sword and shield isn't doing high damage? That doesn't seem like an extreme position.

I'd call a level 1 duelist 16 strength fighter "medium" damage (maybe the upper end of medium), and a character who can do 1d8-1d10 (like firebolt/sacred flame) as "low" damage.

Then Mockery (1d4, no mods) is negligible damage.

[Hael]

The amount of options that give DPR for sword and board are limited. As others have said, adding more attacks to a chassis that just gives d6 + stat + weaponmodifier isn't going to yield big damage numbers as you won't have access to +10/-5 modifiers.

Thus, you need a way to add more dice or mofifiers to each attack, so that means things like warlock invocations, or Paladin improved divine smite, or Barbarian rage damage, or SCAG cantrips or spells like shadowblade or holy/elemental weapon.

The cantrips of course are the easiest to get, either with a feat or small lvl dips. Of course then you run into the issue of only one cantrip or one spell / turn, which leads to sorceror options to improve that, or classes like the Eldritch knight. The last big thing that adds big dpr is advantage. This basically adds ~50% effective dpr per attack. So 2 attacks with advantage is typically stronger than 3 attacks without advantage. Then you would also like something that takes up your ba economy. Again see the sorcerer or spellcasting options for BA damage, as dual wielding/PAM and other feats are out.

Just glancing at this, it seems like the aforementioned EK/wiz option or the Sorcadin options are the cleanest fits.

[Dork_Forge]

Yes, a level 1 fighter with a sword and shield isn't doing high damage? That doesn't seem like an extreme position.

I'd call a level 1 duelist 16 strength fighter "medium" damage (maybe the upper end of medium), and a character who can do 1d8-1d10 (like firebolt/sacred flame) as "low" damage.

Then Mockery (1d4, no mods) is negligible damage.

...Then what build besides a GWM Fighter IS high at will damage?

Please correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be taking high at will to mean high period whereas it should be in the context of what can be done at will period.

So let's put this into context, a Goblin is an extremely common low level enemy and as presented they have 7hp. A Dueling sword and board Fighter can, on average damage, one shot a Goblin with overflow damage (9.5-7=2.5).

Actually reviewing it a Fighter (S&B) can hit it at level 1, then immediately fall out of it. In fact your baseline kind of ignores that there's no at will increase for levels 2 and 3 yet the expectation still raises 4 per level. Warlocks are often touted as good baselines for at will damage due to the ridiculous nature of Agonizing Blast, but a Warlock at 5th is doing an average of 21 damage if both hit but the entry point of high at 5th level is 24.

It just doesn't seem a realistic 'floor' for high damage in an at will context.

[jaappleton]

First: Welcome to the forum!

Now, to the build:

First, you have to decide what you're looking to do. Magic, on a sword and board, is typically utilized strictly for defensive purposes. Sword and board rules out full casters like Bladesinger because you can't hold a shield in Bladesong, and Valor Bard doesn't get a fighting style like Dueling.

If you're looking to dip caster classes strictly for flat damage increases? Well, if you're willing to utilize Unearthed Arcana content, then your options expand quite a bit.

And if you're willing to use Echo Knight, I imagine your table would likely also be OK with Mercer's Blood Hunter class.

If you're using Unearthed Arcana:

-Brute Fighter gives a flat +1d4 per attack, every attack, requires Fighter 3
-Genie Patron gives a flat +Proficiency Bonus to damage once per turn, requires Genie 1
-Barbarian gives a bonus to damage while raging (Can't cast spells)
-Zealot Barbarian gives +1d6+(1/2 Barb Level) to the first creature you hit every turn while raging
-Spells like Crusader's Mantle, Hex, Hunter's Mark all give a damage increase
-Haste nets you an additional attack (Requires Wizard or Sorc 5, Vengeance, Glory, or Artificer 9)
-Gloomstalker gets one extra attack in the first round
-Fey Wanderer gives +1d6 per target (Not per attack, must be separate targets), requires a Bonus Action, Ranger 3
-Hunter gets +1d8 once per turn if the target doesn't have full HP, Ranger 3
-Planar Warrior, Swarmkeeper, and Monster Slayer Rangers (All Ranger 3) also have bonus actions for +1d6-1d8 damage

And if using Blood Hunter, the scaling damage bonus that offers per hit.

And that's just off the top of my head.

My favorites in this list are as follows (in no order):

Barbarian (Especially Zealot)
Brute Fighter
Genie Patron
Blood Hunter

The best weapon for squeezing out DPR from a Sword n Board is the Very Rare Scimitar of Speed, which nets you an additional attack. The king DPR builds squeeze out additional damage through some sort of bonus action attack, and that's very difficult to do on a Sword n Board. Most opt for the Shield Master feat to knock enemies prone, which grants Advantage (for everyone within 5ft) making an attack VS the prone target, ensuring accurate hits.

[Spiritchaser]

First, you have to decide what you're looking to do. Magic, on a sword and board, is typically utilized strictly for defensive purposes.

I can think of a few shadow blade wielders who would not agree

[Nagog]

My gut tells me that this build would feel very very satisfying at a very specific point in the play experience, and the rest of the time working towards that point and later being a adequate but not outstanding high level gish.

Agreed. While having a lot of attacks and good spells is nice, much of this won't come online until tier 3-4. My suggestion would be either go Fighter to 11 to get third Attack Action attack, then hop to Sorcerer for Quickened Melee Cantrips. 5 attacks per round at the cost of 2 sorcery points, access to 5th level spells, and you have Echo Avatar, which can allow you to do a great deal of your martial combat from 1k feet away at no personal risk. If you like that playstyle, you can dip 2 into Trickery Cleric to have 2 duplicates out at once, one Echo and one Duplicity, Echo capable of all of your martial capabilities and your Duplicate capable of all of your spellcasting. Each of them uses your action, however, but depending on hoe your DM rules it, you could have them both occupy the same space, allowing your Duplicate to use abilities like Shield to protect your Echo, Aid to give it more HP, etc.

[jaappleton]

I can think of a few shadow blade wielders who would not agree

I said typically, not only.

Additionally, for my personal play style, I like to avoid Concentration spells as much as possible on a melee build.

I know SB quite well. It’s my friend and fellow Playgrounder DracoKnight’s favorite spell.

I just don’t like building around it.

[Spiritchaser]

I said typically, not only.

Additionally, for my personal play style, I like to avoid Concentration spells as much as possible on a melee build.

I know SB quite well. It’s my friend and fellow Playgrounder DracoKnight’s favorite spell.

I just don’t like building around it.

Fair enough. I have seen it built around to great effect, but I’ll grant that there were drawbacks.