Question on assassinate 2nd part

[Whit]

Assassinate
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. ( In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit)
Is any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit ONLY in addition to part one above. OR is it saying in addition any surprised attack will be a crit? So that in mid combat I’m if I’m stealthed I can crit

[Quietus]

Assassinate
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. ( In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit)
Is any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit ONLY in addition to part one above. OR is it saying in addition any surprised attack will be a crit? So that in mid combat I’m if I’m stealthed I can crit

The opponent has to be Surprised. So you only auto-crit if they have not noticed you or any of your party, AND you win initiative to go first.

[Keravath]

Surprise can ONLY happen in the first round of combat IF you and your party are already HIDDEN and the opponent fails to notice you before combat starts. If this happens then a surprised creature does not get to take any actions or move on their first turn in the initiative order and they can't take reactions until after their first turn has gone past.

I've never seen the assassinate ability used very often in practice since it requires the party managing to surprise a group of opponents AND the assassin having an initiative that comes before those opponents who are surprised.

So the answer to your question is no ... you don't get automatic crits for hiding and then attacking. You DO get advantage on the attack roll if the hide check is successful which then enables sneak attack. However, you have to remember that in order to hide, you require something to hide behind. You can not hide at all if you can be clearly seen.

[Man_Over_Game]

For these reasons, Assassins are much better by themselves, taking out individual targets, as this ensures that:


1. They can leverage their Stealth a lot more often to initiate Surprise when not hindered by their team.
2. Fewer targets to hide against means a higher chance of success.
3. Fewer targets means you land criticals on a larger majority of them. Critting 1 target to death, 5 times, is a lot easier than critting 1 target and then trying to take on his 4 friends.



But, uh...splitting the party is generally a bad idea, especially for combat scenarios (as they aren't all that interesting to watch/listen to). In a party of 5, every minute the DM spends with just you means a cumulative 4 minutes the rest of the party is wasting.

Not to mention that having a character that's most optimized when being a lone wolf doesn't really vibe well in a multiplayer game.

[Whit]

From what I’m understanding it’s an all it nothing for assassinate. Both part 1 and 2 have to happen.

I was wondering because the halfling lightfoot can hide behind an ally during combat

[Keravath]

From what I’m understanding it’s an all it nothing for assassinate. Both part 1 and 2 have to happen.

I was wondering because the halfling lightfoot can hide behind an ally during combat

Yep ... and doing that might give you advantage on your attack (at least ranged attacks) if you successfully hide. However, being hidden does NOT surprise your opponent. That is a special condition only available in the first round and only available if the opponent is unaware of any sort of threat.

[Keravath]

For these reasons, Assassins are much better by themselves, taking out individual targets, as this ensures that:


1. They can leverage their Stealth a lot more often to initiate Surprise when not hindered by their team.
2. Fewer targets to hide against means a higher chance of success.
3. Fewer targets means you land criticals on a larger majority of them. Critting 1 target to death, 5 times, is a lot easier than critting 1 target and then trying to take on his 4 friends.



But, uh...splitting the party is generally a bad idea, especially for combat scenarios (as they aren't all that interesting to watch/listen to). In a party of 5, every minute the DM spends with just you means a cumulative 4 minutes the rest of the party is wasting.

Not to mention that having a character that's most optimized when being a lone wolf doesn't really vibe well in a multiplayer game.

Just a quick note ... the strategy mentioned above can work in the right circumstances at lower levels but the creatures often scale up to hit points at higher levels where even a crit from an assassin won't be enough to kill the creature in one hit. The assassin is then left fighting the creature all by themselves.

For example, an ogre is a CR2 creature with 59 hit points. A level 7 assassin with a long bow and surprise will do 2x (d8 + 4d6) +4 (assuming 18 dex) which is an average of 41 which will take a good chunk out of the ogre but won't kill it AND the ogre is unlikely to be alone ... especially against a party of level 7 characters. So, the assassin trying to get surprise on their own isn't actually likely to kill anything at higher levels and instead will just end up with the assassin fleeing pursued by a horde of enemies.

[Christew]

Assassinate
Starting at 3rd level, you are at your deadliest when you get the drop on your enemies. You have advantage on attack rolls against any creature that hasn’t taken a turn in the combat yet. ( In addition, any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit)
Is any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit ONLY in addition to part one above. OR is it saying in addition any surprised attack will be a crit? So that in mid combat I’m if I’m stealthed I can crit
I think you have two separate qualifying conditions:
- A) Creature hasn't taken a turn in the combat yet, and
- B) Creature is surprised
and two separate possible outcomes:
- A) You have advantage on attack rolls, and
- B) Any hit you score is a critical hit.

The qualifying conditions are distinct, but can both only be achieved in the first round of a given combat (surprise being a condition that expires on a creature's turn). So no, you cannot crit mid combat, because no creature can have the surprised condition mid combat.

A is not a requirement for B, but B will never apply in a situation where A does not also apply.

[elyktsorb]

Those two parts are separate.

Also Assassin in general is garbo imo.

[heavyfuel]

Also Assassin in general is garbo imo.

Not really an opinion as much as a fact :smallbiggrin:

If the ability granted something like auto-hitting or a max damage crit, it might be worth it. As it stands, it's a decent damage increase that you can get maybe 5% of combat rounds. That's just crap.

Not to mention the fact that rolling a Nat 20 on your Assassinate is just disappointing cuz you can't Crit twice.

A friend is playing an Assassin Rogue (lv 4) and he's... Well... Strugling, to put it lightly.

[clash]

Assassin actually isn't as bad as people think if they come into it with the right expectations, at least during lower levels.

Assassin gets 3 abilities at level 3:

1: Proficiency with poisoner kit and disguise kit. Never used poisoner kit, but the disguise kit proficiency comes in handy.

2: Advantage on attacks against creatures that haven't taken a turn yet. This should be useful every combat. It allows you to get sneak attack easily on the first turn when your martial buddies arent in position yet. Then you can hide after getting sneak attack and be hidden until the start of your next turn. This is what I would take the archetype for.

3: Any attack against a surprised creature is a crit. This is the ability that is mostly fluff. It can be really cool and give you those moments but despite what white room optimizers seem to think, this is never an ability I would build around. This comes up about as much as Thieves Cant. It is for the assassin theme and nothing else.

At higher levels it falls behind as the level 9 and 13 abilities are all but useless but at low levels the all but garunteed advantage can be great.

[heavyfuel]

Assassin actually isn't as bad as people think if they come into it with the right expectations, at least during lower levels.

Assassin gets 3 abilities at level 3:

1: Proficiency with poisoner kit and disguise kit. Never used poisoner kit, but the disguise kit proficiency comes in handy.

2: Advantage on attacks against creatures that haven't taken a turn yet. This should be useful every combat. It allows you to get sneak attack easily on the first turn when your martial buddies arent in position yet. Then you can hide after getting sneak attack and be hidden until the start of your next turn. This is what I would take the archetype for.

3: Any attack against a surprised creature is a crit. This is the ability that is mostly fluff. It can be really cool and give you those moments but despite what white room optimizers seem to think, this is never an ability I would build around. This comes up about as much as Thieves Cant. It is for the assassin theme and nothing else.

At higher levels it falls behind as the level 9 and 13 abilities are all but useless but at low levels the all but garunteed advantage can be great.

Consider that the subclass is called "Assassin" and then you get a feature called "Assassinate". You'd hope that this feature is what you'd build your PC around. I don't want to play an Assassin to disguise myself, I want to one-shot enemies. Y'know, I want to assassinate them.

But even without the obvious expectations, the only useful thing you get is one extra Sneak Attack, against a random target (so you can't focus fire) maybe once per combat (you still have to win initiative against someone and you still have to hit the target).

Diguise proficiency is cool, but it can be gotten through Background if you really care about it. And if you don't care about it, then this proficiency with it is useless. Poisons suck too much for poisoner's kit to be of any use whatsoever.

If it weren't enough that your 3rd level is disappointing, 9th and 13th level are somehow even worse in 99% of campaigns.

[Man_Over_Game]

Assassin actually isn't as bad as people think if they come into it with the right expectations, at least during lower levels.

Assassin gets 3 abilities at level 3:

1: Proficiency with poisoner kit and disguise kit. Never used poisoner kit, but the disguise kit proficiency comes in handy.

2: Advantage on attacks against creatures that haven't taken a turn yet. This should be useful every combat. It allows you to get sneak attack easily on the first turn when your martial buddies arent in position yet. Then you can hide after getting sneak attack and be hidden until the start of your next turn. This is what I would take the archetype for.

3: Any attack against a surprised creature is a crit. This is the ability that is mostly fluff. It can be really cool and give you those moments but despite what white room optimizers seem to think, this is never an ability I would build around. This comes up about as much as Thieves Cant. It is for the assassin theme and nothing else.

At higher levels it falls behind as the level 9 and 13 abilities are all but useless but at low levels the all but garunteed advantage can be great.

Compare it to the Gloomstalker's feature, which is a non-circumstantial extra attack, a bonus to your initiative (which inherently is a boon to all stealth players to leverage Surprise-initiative mechanics), extra damage on that attack, and extra speed for that turn.

In comparison, the Assassin has a circumstantial Advantage on his attack (which probably is usable ~70% of the time), and a critical damage bonus if the target is Surprised AND the previous trigger occurred.

The critical damage bonus is probably around a 3d6 (or a 10.5 average) and the Gloomstalker's bonus is a 1d8 on a bonus attack (which we'll assume deals the martial average of 10 damage).

So we're looking at an estimated 14.5 damage for the Ranger and 10.5 for the Rogue. Less if you count the ~30% chance the Rogue doesn't act before his target, and that's before counting the bonus to Initiative and Speed for the Ranger.

To top it all off, Gloomstalker's Darkvision-Invisibility and bonus spells definitely outmatch the Assassin's Disguise Kit and Poisoner's Kit.

Given, the Rogue's critical bonus does scale better, until the Ranger gets features that the Assassin's can't compare to (as the assassin's post-level-3 features are terrible).

I like the concept of the assassin as a skilled hitman, but it feels very out-of-place for 5e, and doesn't really have a niche that works. It does make me wonder what the Assassin should have been. I might make a thread on that later...

[clash]

Compare it to the Gloomstalker's feature, which is a non-circumstantial extra attack, a bonus to your initiative (which inherently is a boon to all stealth players to leverage Surprise-initiative mechanics), extra damage on that attack, and extra speed for that turn.

In comparison, the Assassin has a circumstantial Advantage on his attack (which probably is usable ~70% of the time), and a critical damage bonus if the target is Surprised AND the previous trigger occurred.

The critical damage bonus is probably around a 3d6 (or a 10.5 average) and the Gloomstalker's bonus is a 1d8 on a bonus attack (which we'll assume deals the martial average of 10 damage).

So we're looking at an estimated 14.5 damage for the Ranger and 10.5 for the Rogue. Less if you count the ~30% chance the Rogue doesn't act before his target, and that's before counting the bonus to Initiative and Speed for the Ranger.

To top it all off, Gloomstalker's Darkvision-Invisibility and bonus spells definitely outmatch the Assassin's Disguise Kit and Poisoner's Kit.

Given, the Rogue's critical bonus does scale better, until the Ranger gets features that the Assassin's can't compare to (as the assassin's post-level-3 features are terrible).

I like the concept of the assassin as a skilled hitman, but it feels very out-of-place for 5e, and doesn't really have a niche that works. It does make me wonder what the Assassin should have been. I might make a thread on that later...

This is comparing apples to oranges. You cant compare a rogue subclass to a ranger one and gloomstaker is a particularly powerful one. Compare to instead the swashbuckler subclass.

Swashbuckler gets:
Hit and run feature
+1-3 to intitiative
An additional way to sneak attack

Better than assassin but not too far off. The hit and run feature is easy enough to pick up with Mobile, and the additional way to sneak attack is more versatile than the advantage on first turn but less powerful as it doesn't actually give advantage.

[heavyfuel]

This is comparing apples to oranges. You cant compare a rogue subclass to a ranger one and gloomstaker is a particularly powerful one. Compare to instead the swashbuckler subclass.

Swashbuckler gets:
Hit and run feature
+1-3 to intitiative
An additional way to sneak attack

Better than assassin but not too far off. The hit and run feature is easy enough to pick up with Mobile, and the additional way to sneak attack is more versatile than the advantage on first turn but less powerful as it doesn't actually give advantage.

I agree on comparing apples to oranges, but a better comparison would be the Thief.

Sure, they """only""" get Fast Hands, but Fast Hands is such an amazing ability that it's worth far more than a bit of extra damage the Assassin gets.