Talking about the spirit shaman

[el minster]

What are your experiences with this class, advice about playing it, anything else you want to say? Not much has been writen about this class.

[The Viscount]

I played a spirit shaman in a Curse of Strahd campaign. I played Raptoran so didn't have to worry about flight, but otherwise I think the class covered me pretty well.

The spell list being druid means that there are a lot of buff spells for yourself or your animal companion that I didn't use. This helped with choice paralysis, and I skewed blasting since the adventure is very combat-heavy. Sudden Stalagmite, Kelpstrand, Mass Snake's Swiftness, and Spiritjaws were all very helpful. Split casting hurts a little, but I was able to compensate a little by dumping Strength. Chastise spirits only came up once but it did feel great to use, since fey and incorporeal undead have low health.
Some recommend taking Dynamic Priest to unify your stats if the book is allowed.

[el minster]

did you play at first level?

[Gnaeus]

I was very unimpressed with mine. Admittedly, our campaign kept wandering to places where I couldn’t summon. Which nerfs the class considerably. But they don’t get enough spells/day to compensate for the fact that druid spells are not as versatile spell for spell as sorcerer ones, and you can functionally use less than half the Druid list. I firmly believe they are over tiered. I kept wishing I had played a favored soul instead.

[Nifft]

I kept wishing I had played a favored soul instead.

Spontaneous Cleric and Druid (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) are even better.

[Gnaeus]

Spontaneous Cleric and Druid (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) are even better.

I have no doubt.

[Thurbane]

I am the only singing the topic title in my head to the tune of The Who - My Generation? :smalltongue:


I firmly believe they are over tiered. I kept wishing I had played a favored soul instead.

I have no experience with Spirit Shaman, but I did play a FS in a RHoD campaign. I much prefer spontaneous casters to prepared: I hate the "Oh well, we'll come back tomorrow once I've selected different spells" aspect of prepared casters.

I did enjoy the class, but sadly, one of the other players took Cleric in that party, and I constantly felt like his weaker and less versatile cousin.

[Psyren]

I have no experience with Spirit Shaman, but I did play a FS in a RHoD campaign. I much prefer spontaneous casters to prepared: I hate the "Oh well, we'll come back tomorrow once I've selected different spells" aspect of prepared casters.

The protip there is to leave a couple of slots open for problem-solving or niche spells during the day; even divine casters can do this. (Of course, a few scrolls are nice too.)

[Lilapop]

The protip there is to leave a couple of slots open for problem-solving or niche spells during the day; even divine casters can do this. (Of course, a few scrolls are nice too.)

You sure? I'm seeing this (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineSpellSelectionandPreparatio n) (emphasis mine):


A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day.

While they can leave slots open, they can't fill them until the next prayer time comes around, as there is no equivalent to the wizard's "sit down for 15 minutes and prepare a single spell", so the only use case for leaving slots open is to... nerf yourself? Get back to playing when you can't decide? Something like that.

[Gnaeus]

I have no experience with Spirit Shaman, but I did play a FS in a RHoD campaign. I much prefer spontaneous casters to prepared: I hate the "Oh well, we'll come back tomorrow once I've selected different spells" aspect of prepared casters.

I did enjoy the class, but sadly, one of the other players took Cleric in that party, and I constantly felt like his weaker and less versatile cousin.

Specifically, the way the “I wish id played a favored soul” conversation always went in my head.

1. We are in another ravenlofty demiplane or planar warded area so I can’t reliably summon.
2. We have only loose information on what we are fighting. So I need to fill my 7th level slot with a spell that is likely to be useful in any type of fight.
3. Looks through Druid 7 spells. “Well, I guess it’s heal again”
4. I wish I’d played a favored soul. Then I could spam heal at lower level and still have other options.

I don’t know what happens in these perfect information, we just come back next day wonderlands I see in the forums. Our games seem to be more like “We are storming the death cult church tomorrow. So undead. Or demons. Maybe golems. Certainly caster types. Humanoid guards. Oh and magical traps. And everything has a template changing its resistances. And if we leave they will complete their ritual and we lose. Or they will pack up and take the thing we need and we lose. Or they will swap out THEIR spell lists to Anti-PC mode and we lose.”

In those cases (which seem like default to me, your groups style may vary) Tier 1s still do best. They drop their downtime spells and pick up an anti-specific thing or 2 and they still have more top level options than anyone else. T2s do fine. Their default utility spells can handle anything. SS is trash. If he picks a level appropriate anti-X spell he is gimped for the fights with Y and Z. If he picks generalist spells he’s always behind the T2s. His list is worse and he gets less options from it.

[Psyren]

You sure? I'm seeing this (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm#divineSpellSelectionandPreparatio n) (emphasis mine):



While they can leave slots open, they can't fill them until the next prayer time comes around, as there is no equivalent to the wizard's "sit down for 15 minutes and prepare a single spell", so the only use case for leaving slots open is to... nerf yourself? Get back to playing when you can't decide? Something like that.

Yes, I'm sure. Rules Compendium 129:


A divine spellcaster selects and prepares spells ahead of time through prayer and meditation at a particular time of day. The time required to prepare spells is 1 hour, the same as it is for arcane spellcasters. Divine spellcasters don’t have to prepare all their spells at once. However, divine spellcasters are considered fresh of mind only during their initial daily preparation process, so they can’t fill a slot that is empty because they cast or abandoned a previously prepared spell.

As long as you start preparing during that designated prayer/meditation period, you can leave some slots open to prepare the rest later.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Admittedly, our campaign kept wandering to places where I couldn’t summon. Which nerfs the class considerably.


1. We are in another ravenlofty demiplane or planar warded area so I can’t reliably summon.

In that situation, yeah, druids and spirit shamans alike are considerably nerfed, so it's not a great demonstration of the class's full strengths, and a dedicated conjurer wizard or sorcerer wouldn't fare much better.


2. We have only loose information on what we are fighting. So I need to fill my 7th level slot with a spell that is likely to be useful in any type of fight.
[...]
I don’t know what happens in these perfect information, we just come back next day wonderlands I see in the forums. Our games seem to be more like “We are storming the death cult church tomorrow. So undead. Or demons. Maybe golems. Certainly caster types. Humanoid guards. Oh and magical traps. And everything has a template changing its resistances. And if we leave they will complete their ritual and we lose. Or they will pack up and take the thing we need and we lose. Or they will swap out THEIR spell lists to Anti-PC mode and we lose.”

Part of this is the fact that scouting and divinations can have a huge impact on spell preparation. If your party casters can scry some cultists or commune/contact other plane about their defenses and composition, your party rogue can sneak in and scout around, a shapeshifted PC or summoned creature can get a bird's eye view of the complex and report back, and so on, you can really tailor your spell list nicely.

Part of this sounds like your DM kinda being a jerk, where on top of shutting down teleportation and summons for reasons of playstyle preference, "balance," or whatever, they also give you hard deadlines for everything, do what they can to prevent you from gathering information about your enemies, give the NPCs anti-PC tactics without requiring them to scout you out, and so on. So once again, not a great scenario for objectively comparing class strengths and weaknesses.


SS is trash. If he picks a level appropriate anti-X spell he is gimped for the fights with Y and Z. If he picks generalist spells he’s always behind the T2s. His list is worse and he gets less options from it.

Even in the worst-case scenarios, the spirit shaman does benefit from the ability to swap between "combat day" vs. "travel/exploration day" vs. "downtime day" spell selections, compared to T2 casters or spontaneous druids, which isn't nothing. But yes, the druid list is certainly the weakest of the T1s and when the spirit shaman doesn't have summon support and its anti-spirit class features can't pick up the slack in nearly as many cases as wild shape can.

[Gnaeus]

In that situation, yeah, druids and spirit shamans alike are considerably nerfed, so it's not a great demonstration of the class's full strengths, and a dedicated conjurer wizard or sorcerer wouldn't fare much better

False, false and also false. Druids have easy answers, the simplest being turning into a heavily buffed super tiger. The sorcerer has more high level spells known than the shaman can recover even on even levels. Also his spells are pound for pound better and to top it off his superior casting mechanic allows him to use his high level slots for metamagiced lower level spells. The wizard of course has both more and better spells available.


Part of this is fact that scouting and divinations can have a huge impact on spell preparation. If your party casters can scry some cultists or commune/contact other plane about their defenses and composition, your party rogue can sneak in and scout around, a shapeshifted PC or summoned creature can get a bird's eye view of the complex and report back, and so on, you can really tailor your spell list nicely

Our divinations were blocked just like theirs were. Flyovers rarely got more than the description of the temple or fortress, it’s not like evil overlords don’t understand roofs. Our scout was never so suicidal as to sneak into enemy base alone. She would certainly have either died or been stopped by some puzzle trap that needed the party to solve.


Part of this sounds like your DM kinda being a jerk, where on top of shutting down teleportation and summons for reasons of playstyle preference, "balance," or whatever, they also give you hard deadlines for everything, do what they can to prevent you from gathering information about your enemies, give the NPCs anti-PC tactics without requiring them to scout you out, and so on. So once again, not a great scenario for objectively comparing class strengths and weaknesses

Yes and no. I am a bit upset that he allowed a character in play whose primary schtick was shut down so often, but of course if Spirit Shaman were actually a T1 or T2 class it wouldn’t have been shut down. The other party casters all said “super easy, barely an inconvenience”.

As far as the other goes I disagree strongly. A real high level Mid/high game is very likely to have most of those things. Yeah, if you have a forum opp party in a printed dungeon or low opp DM yeah, the T1 bends reality over its knee. But if you are playing a high opp party fighting enemy casters, outsiders, dragons and the like, with their super-genius intelligences and centuries of experience, you should expect them to use every bit of rules trickery PCs do. We can’t scry them for the same reasons they can’t scry us. Their fortresses are routinely dimensionally locked, sheeted with lead, everyone important mind blanked, just like ours was. By the end of the game, they knew exactly who we were, just like we knew exactly who the enemy bosses were. We’d been fighting for years by that point.

As to the time deadlines, I suppose that’s a DM fiat thing. But really, watch any movie. Read any book. Flash Gordon always has 12 hours to save the world. The bomb gets deactivated with 007 seconds left. You are always stopping a plot or racing your evil opposites or rescuing a prisoner or something.

And again, once you have broken in, you should expect Intelligent enemies who are now fully aware of you to use any time you give them, and it is hardly uncommon for enemy bosses to be a couple of levels above PCs. So when the spirit shaman realizes that he could one shot the plant monster with control plants the enemy cleric realizes that this seems like a good day to fill several slots with Gate. Or teleport to their chapter house across the continent, leave the prisoner or mcguffin there, and teleport back with reinforcements. (At this optimization level, you leave one room in the base not dimensionally locked as your doorstep. Or you set up an entry/exit point to the pocket plane or whatever.)


Even in the worst-case scenarios, the spirit shaman does benefit from the ability to swap between "combat day" vs. "travel/exploration day" vs. "downtime day" spell selections, compared to T2 casters or spontaneous druids, which isn't nothing..

It’s not nothing but it’s not great either. They have so few spells retrieved that if something winds up happening on a downtime day they risk, again, being totally useless. The wizard/cleric/Druid is usually swapping out few enough spells that he’s still fully capable.

[The Viscount]

did you play at first level?

We started at level 6 or so, so I was able to fly for the length of combat most times. I didn't end up summoning anything, but I didn't really notice since I was focused more on damage/bfc.

[Thurbane]

The protip there is to leave a couple of slots open for problem-solving or niche spells during the day; even divine casters can do this.

I keep forgetting this option... but in my defense, several of the DMs in my group disallow this for all casters (arcane and divine), even though it's RAW.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

False, false and also false. Druids have easy answers, the simplest being turning into a heavily buffed super tiger.

The fact that druids have plenty of other things to do without summoning access compared to the spirit shaman doesn't mean that they aren't still heavily nerfed by its loss. Summon nature's ally is a key tool for scouting (elementals), short-range party mobility (flying/swimming mounts), assaulting fortified positions (thoqquas), bypassing fortified positions (jann), efficient healing (unicorns), stealth and ambush (pixies), and more, and Wild Shape can only partially compensate for these (e.g. an air elemental scout is nimbler, capable of accessing more places, and much more disposable than a druid Wild Shaped into a bird).

More importantly, a campaign with lots of no-summon zones hits a spirit shaman much harder than it does a druid (since, lacking Wild Shape, relies a lot more on SNA for its breadth and utility), hence why making class judgments based on that isn't a fair comparison.


The sorcerer has more high level spells known than the shaman can recover even on even levels. Also his spells are pound for pound better and to top it off his superior casting mechanic allows him to use his high level slots for metamagiced lower level spells. The wizard of course has both more and better spells available.

By "dedicated conjurer" I was referring to a wizard or sorcerer who leans primarily on summoning and so would be hit as hard by a no-summon zone barring summon monster as a druid or spirit shaman would be by it barring SNA, though admittedly "dedicated summoner" would have been clearer. Obviously a spirit shaman comes out worse in pretty much every way when compared to the average sorcerer/wizard or a sorcerer/wizard specced for something else.


Our divinations were blocked just like theirs were. Flyovers rarely got more than the description of the temple or fortress, it’s not like evil overlords don’t understand roofs. Our scout was never so suicidal as to sneak into enemy base alone. She would certainly have either died or been stopped by some puzzle trap that needed the party to solve.

Certainly, a well-prepared villain is going to make it harder to scout/divine/etc. information for optimal spell preparation, especially at the levels where lots of anti-divination wards become cheap and common, but around the mid levels it's generally a successful and hard-to-counter tactic. But I was mainly providing a counterpoint to the idea of "perfect information wonderlands" (or the ever-popular accusation of "Schrodinger's wizard") being a forum invention you don't see in real games, because it's not just possible but easy to get at least a little bit of useful information to tailor one's spell preparation, and situations where you're totally blind aside from "We'll probably be facing evil creatures, we hope" are a rare exception rather than the norm.

(And by the way, you know what would be good for scouting? A nice, expendable summon nature's ally minion. :smallamused:)


Yes and no. I am a bit upset that he allowed a character in play whose primary schtick was shut down so often, but of course if Spirit Shaman were actually a T1 or T2 class it wouldn’t have been shut down. The other party casters all said “super easy, barely an inconvenience”.

Just because a class is T1 or T2 doesn't mean a character can do everything, as anyone who specializes can be shut down pretty hard in the right circumstances. Enchanters, summoners, and necromancers are all T1 wizards, yet can run into a lot of counters to their getting and retaining minions; a DMM: Persist cleric is high T1, but can get in trouble if they don't have access to lots of CL boosters and get a bunch of buffs dispelled; a blaster sorcerer with a thematic focus on a single energy type is T2, but is vulnerable to highly-resistant or immune foes if he doesn't pack Searing Spell or the like; and so on.

It's never a problem for optimized generalist casters, of course, but specialists are more common than generalists and do run into these issues. A spirit shaman is pretty par for the specialized-T2-caster course in that respect, and a spirit shaman getting no-sold by a campaign full of no-summon zones is comparable to an enchanter getting no-sold by a campaign full of undead and constructs.


As far as the other goes I disagree strongly. A real high level Mid/high game is very likely to have most of those things. Yeah, if you have a forum opp party in a printed dungeon or low opp DM yeah, the T1 bends reality over its knee. But if you are playing a high opp party fighting enemy casters, outsiders, dragons and the like, with their super-genius intelligences and centuries of experience, you should expect them to use every bit of rules trickery PCs do.

The impression I was getting from your examples (having high-level spells yet knowing practically nothing about your foes, the DM going out of his way to change up monsters to defeat player knowledge, a fixed "do exactly the right thing in 1 day or you lose" deadline that you couldn't have found out about beforehand because plot) was that it wasn't a standard high-level environment, but more of a "this DM hates how the game changes at high levels so he bans and nerfs tons of things so he can keep running LotR at high levels" scenario.

(More specifically, I usually see the presence of lots of dimension-locked areas as a huge red flag because it often means the DM hates teleportation and plane shifting for "ruining travel plots" and "giving the party the freedom to go anywhere" and such and summoning and calling for "letting the party break the game with permanent minions" and "abusing the Monster Manual" and such--and all of that goes double for using Ravenloft, where the Dark Powers are DM fiat given physical form.)

If that was mostly letting out frustration and your DM is otherwise just doing competent optimized high-level play, that's a hippogriff of a different color. I'd probably also pick favored soul over spirit shaman in that case, but not because the spirit shaman is totally useless compared to T1 and T2 casters, just because favored soul is highish T2 and spirit shaman is scraping the bottom of T2 and in those kinds of campaigns every little advantage counts.


It’s not nothing but it’s not great either. They have so few spells retrieved that if something winds up happening on a downtime day they risk, again, being totally useless. The wizard/cleric/Druid is usually swapping out few enough spells that he’s still fully capable.

No question, the spirit shaman doesn't hold a candle to T1 casters as far as downtime loadouts go, but the fact that the spirit shaman can do that at all is still a perk it has that a sorcerer or favored soul doesn't.

Whether that will come up or matter at all varies by campaign, of course. In some campaigns with more downtime or more of a realm management focus, the ability to go "I'mma retrieve wall of stone, stone shape, and move earth and spend the next two weeks building myself a castle, and then swap back to combat spells for the next adventure" can be a very useful thing that would make the sorcerer and favored soul jealous, where in others where the party has maybe a day or two of downtime the whole campaign and doesn't care about territory or followers the spirit shaman is giving up a lot of consistent power for very little benefit.


I keep forgetting this option... but in my defense, several of the DMs in my group disallow this for all casters (arcane and divine), even though it's RAW.

Do they ever say why? I can't think of a good reason to disallow it. I mean, maybe if they'd rather that the whole party rest for the night to wait for the party caster to get off a utility spell instead of continuing on 15 minutes later and avoiding a 15-minute workday, but I'd hardly call that a good reason.

[Gnaeus]

Certainly, a well-prepared villain is going to make it harder to scout/divine/etc. information for optimal spell preparation, especially at the levels where lots of anti-divination wards become cheap and common, but around the mid levels it's generally a successful and hard-to-counter tactic. But I was mainly providing a counterpoint to the idea of "perfect information wonderlands" (or the ever-popular accusation of "Schrodinger's wizard") being a forum invention you don't see in real games, because it's not just possible but easy to get at least a little bit of useful information to tailor one's spell preparation, and situations where you're totally blind aside from "We'll probably be facing evil creatures, we hope" are a rare exception rather than the norm

I simply disagree. Again, it’s certainly possible in cases where the caster OP outstrips DM OP. And there are of course instances where good intelligence is available. But a little bit of useful information is useful to the wizard but not generally the shaman. The T1 only needs to know “there’s at least 1 demon” to prepare some anti demon spells. The SS needs to know there’s at least one demon but also to know what else is there. Because if he devotes his only spell retrieved for one of the top 2 levels to an anti type counter spell he risks uselessness to every non type creature. Or he takes something like Heal.


By "dedicated conjurer" I was referring to a wizard or sorcerer who leans primarily on summoning and so would be hit as hard by a no-summon zone barring summon monster as a druid or spirit shaman would be by it barring SNA, though admittedly "dedicated summoner" would have been clearer. Obviously a spirit shaman comes out worse in pretty much every way when compared to the average sorcerer/wizard or a sorcerer/wizard specced for something else.

Just because a class is T1 or T2 doesn't mean a character can do everything, as anyone who specializes can be shut down pretty hard in the right circumstances. Enchanters, summoners, and necromancers are all T1 wizards, yet can run into a lot of counters to their getting and retaining minions; a DMM: Persist cleric is high T1, but can get in trouble if they don't have access to lots of CL boosters and get a bunch of buffs dispelled; a blaster sorcerer with a thematic focus on a single energy type is T2, but is vulnerable to highly-resistant or immune foes if he doesn't pack Searing Spell or the like; and so on.

It's never a problem for optimized generalist casters, of course, but specialists are more common than generalists and do run into these issues. A spirit shaman is pretty par for the specialized-T2-caster course in that respect, and a spirit shaman getting no-sold by a campaign full of no-summon zones is comparable to an enchanter getting no-sold by a campaign full of undead and constructs

Oh, you were clear. You are just wrong. A sorcerer can take a summon at every level and still have spells left over for blasting, polymorph, etc. Again, he has more spells known, More versatile spells, easier ways to add spells, and better use of slots. A blaster sorcerer focusing on a single energy type is like a fighter dual specced in thrown and S&B. As bad as you can make a sorcerer without 8 charisma. A wizard of course can specialize in anything he wants, not dump conjuration and transmutation, and casually ignore the loss of 1 spell/level. Actually, it’s not even that bad for wizards, since there are plenty of good buffs in most of those schools that don’t involve minionmancy or targeting enemies.

A beguiler in a dungeon in which everything is immune to illusions and mind affecting dominates a spirit shaman without summons. No T2 with primary schtick shut down approximates SS.


I'd probably also pick favored soul over spirit shaman in that case, but not because the spirit shaman is totally useless compared to T1 and T2 casters, just because favored soul is highish T2 and spirit shaman is scraping the bottom of T2 and in those kinds of campaigns every little advantage counts.
.

You have that backwards. Spirit shaman is ranked 1.87 high T2. FS 2.24 bottom T2. Not that I don’t agree with you. There isn’t much space between bottom T2 and T3, where I rank SS.

[Aotrs Commander]

This has me asking a serious question - does the spirit shaman really have enough spells retrived per day, or could it really use probably an extra one (or at least on the lower levels?) As buffer to not be very easily shut down to the minimal number?

The PF arcanist seems to be wildly regarded as skewed in the wrong direction (or course, that gets the much better wizard spell list), but I'm wondering if the balance point for spontaneous/prepared casting may be between the two.



(I gave the SS the PF shaman hexes, but maybe they still need a slight revision with spells too; no-one in our group has ever played one yet to see it in anger.)

[Gnaeus]

This has me asking a serious question - does the spirit shaman really have enough spells retrived per day, or could it really use probably an extra one (or at least on the lower levels?) As buffer to not be very easily shut down to the minimal number?

The PF arcanist seems to be wildly regarded as skewed in the wrong direction (or course, that gets the much better wizard spell list), but I'm wondering if the balance point for spontaneous/prepared casting may be between the two.



(I gave the SS the PF shaman hexes, but maybe they still need a slight revision with spells too; no-one in our group has ever played one yet to see it in anger.)

Yes. (I mean no, they don’t have enough spells, yes that would help). Or an automatic set of spells (like oracles getting heals or sorcerers getting bloodline spells.) Hexes would likely work also.

Even just using the arcanist metamagic rules would help. An arcanist can prepare 2 spells, say scorching ray and lightning bolt, and know 2 metamagic feats (say dazing and empower) and functionally have (without cheese):
L2 Scorching Ray
L3 Lightning bolt
L4 Empowered Scorching Ray
L5 empowered Lightning Bolt, Dazing Scorching Ray
L6 Dazing Lightning Bolt

That change alone would let the SShaman prepare an anti type spell in a valuable high level slot while still having something to do with slots in case the dragon the scout mentioned is actually a dracolich (or anything else with a type changing template). Or in my case, in the times when I could summon, I wouldn’t have to prepare SNA X AND Rapid SNA X in a higher slot. Having an empowered flame strike as a level 7 option is hardly the pinnacle of blasting optimization, but I would have been happy to have it when debating between (really good spell I will use once) and Heal (over leveled spell but which is almost always useful.)

Arcanist gets the best of all worlds. Way more spells retrieved. Better list. Better metamagic. Better class abilities. Any one would shore SS into T2. Any 2 would be scraping the border with 1.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I like Spirit Shaman, but the two-stat casting is super annoying.

The Druid spell list is absolutely fantastic, and it's just as good as a prepared caster since you can re-pick your retrieved spells every day and it doesn't even have delayed access to a level of spells. You can do all the summoning shenanigans a Druid can do, including Greenbound Summoning if you're into that. You've even got Bone Talisman (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20040721a) to use Turn Undead if needed.

If you can gain a domain such as by dipping Seeker of the Misty Isle, choosing a domain spell as one of your retrieved spells doesn't have the 1/day limit that domain spells normally do (CD p20). Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) can be used to gain an animal companion that you can buff with Enrage Animal and similar. You can also make good use of reserve feats like Summon Elemental, Storm Bolt, and Touch of Healing, especially with Versatile Spellcaster and/or Heighten Spell.

[JeminiZero]

On a side note, if Summoning is unreliable, there is always Conjure Ice Beast I-IX [Frostburn]. It is Conjuration-Creation, not Summoning.

In fact, being able to swap out spells like that is an advantage over the "normal" Spontaneous T2 casters. In a summon-restricted zone, a Summon-Focused Sorcerer can't summon. Whereas a Spirit Shaman can at least swap Summon Nature's Ally for Conjure Ice Beast.

[Gnaeus]

On a side note, if Summoning is unreliable, there is always Conjure Ice Beast I-IX [Frostburn]. It is Conjuration-Creation, not Summoning.

In fact, being able to swap out spells like that is an advantage over the "normal" Spontaneous T2 casters. In a summon-restricted zone, a Summon-Focused Sorcerer can't summon. Whereas a Spirit Shaman can at least swap Summon Nature's Ally for Conjure Ice Beast.

Well poop. Where were you when I needed you?

The downsides, though, are significant. You can make a semi-decent bruiser, but it isn’t really much good to a summons based character because none of the summons optimization works with it. No augment summoning. No ring of the beast. No Spontaneous Summoning. No spells or spell likes or special creature abilities. No greenbound/Ashbound/imbued. I probably would have used it occasionally If I had realized. But it’s really just another weaksauce generalist spell. Used at level 7 in place of that Heal for example, you are summoning an unbuffed CR 8 dire ice tiger into a CR 13 challenge. You can put a creature on the battlefield, which isn’t nothing. But it’s not really better than weaksauce Shaman blasting/healing either.

[Troacctid]

This has me asking a serious question - does the spirit shaman really have enough spells retrived per day, or could it really use probably an extra one (or at least on the lower levels?) As buffer to not be very easily shut down to the minimal number?
Of course it doesn't have enough. Have you seen the table? Even the sorcerer has more known spells.

[Aotrs Commander]

*makes adjustment to SS spell retrieval table such that spell progression runs 1,2,2,3,3,4' and added better orison progression* (1st level spells start from the 2.)

There. Still less than sorcerer (but you don't want arcanist syndrome) but a better progression than 1,1,1,2,2,2,3' and they get Hexes. See how that goes...

[tiercel]

Of course it doesn't have enough. Have you seen the table? Even the sorcerer has more known spells.

Oh I agree, it's a pinch, though it is also worth pointing out that the sorcerer more or less knows those spells forever, where the SS can change every day as desired, so there *is* a tradeoff (if nothing else, a SS can Scribe Scroll a lot more effectively for utility, for instance). --The dual casting stats seems a bit unnecessary atop the weird-but-limiting-but-also-interesting casting mechanic.

The SS doesn't have the raw casting power of a sorcerer, the wildshape-plus-animal-companion melee power of a druid, or the domains-plus-turn-undead-shenanigans of a cleric, so if those are the benchmarks for "good" then the interesting-but-often-niche class abilities of the SS might leave it seeming lacking by comparison.

Having said that, I still have a soft spot for the class, and had good experience (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=14988319&postcount=15) with it:


Since SS spam their handful of spells so hard, there are worse things than going summoner. (You never have more than 3 spells of a given level at a time, though you can change them every day, so... yeah. Spam.)

Since you can retrieve any spell you want, Scribe Scroll et al is an attractive downtime option so that the "I never know more than 3 spells of a given level" thing doesn't keep too tight a lid on your day-to-day utility.

My last SS character was an "upkeep phase" mage: "summon acts, summon acts, creeping cold does more damage, lesser vigor fast heals you, i move my flaming sphere for more damage, and oh! my standard action this round, oh yeah...."

Some of the class features ain't shabby -- chastise spirits is worth not forgetting about, always-on protection from evil spirits can be handy, short-term ethereality at 9th level, and that 10th level guide magic ability (free concentration on a spell) opens up some fun goodies (see the Spirit Shaman handbook section on spellcasting).

As long as you don't mind having a few general spells that you can usefully spam, OR, can pick great spells to spam for *today*, SS is not significantly behind a primarily-casting druid. SS abilities aren't bad, if probably not quite as strong as straight-up wildshape, but OTOH using equipment doesn't devolve into the "all I want for Christmas is another Wilding Clasp" scenario.

Look, wildshape played to the hilt (much less animal companion optimization) is going to outclass SS class abilities, fine. But if you feel like tweaked-out-druid is a bit much for your table's optimization level but feel like casting off the druid list and having a cool shamanistic flavor backed up by the class's abilities, it's not a bad class.

[Darg]

The class needs downtime to be in top shape and the capability to summon to be at peak power. A Ring of Free Magic might assist in being able to summon, if you can find one or have time and the capability to make one.

The spell Spellstaff has interesting wording that when taken in the context of a SS seems to imply the possibility of storing a spell that can use your spell slots instead of being a one time use. This could increase your spells known.

[Gnaeus]

Look, wildshape played to the hilt (much less animal companion optimization) is going to outclass SS class abilities, fine. But if you feel like tweaked-out-druid is a bit much for your table's optimization level but feel like casting off the druid list and having a cool shamanistic flavor backed up by the class's abilities, it's not a bad class.

It is the worst full 9 caster in the game by a decent margin. That’s not bad exactly.

Spirit Shamans don’t cast off the Druid list. They cast off the third of the Druid list they can functionally use.

There’s a big pile of self buffs like Bite of the WereX. Those are useful spells on a tiger Druid or a Druid sharing spells with a tiger. They blow for SS, a light armor mid bab simple weapon MAD class.(Scratches them off chalkboard)

Another decent set of day long/long duration buffs like the primal line. Great use of one of several spells. Terrible use of spells retrieved. Gone.

Pile of buffs for natural attacks or buffing companions. Gone.

Wildshape spells. Enhance wildshape is probably the only Druid spell that approaches polymorph in versatility (at that level range). Other spells that do things like buff an existing fly speed. Gone.

Any utility spell that you might want to cast once on a typical adventuring day, in your top 3 spell levels. That’s trash now. Gone.

What’s left? They are good summoners. They can heal, blast and buff worse than any class that is actually good at any of those things. Their spells are harder to meaningfully expand than comparable classes (look for example at Seeker of the Misty Isle as mentioned earlier by Biffonacus. A Healer or Warmage will be pretty happy using most of those spells 1/day. A SS will not generally want most of them as spells retrieved until many levels after they are castable. It’s nice to be able to pick up teleport on a downtime day. But it’s usually better to have 1 teleport available every day.) It’s only a little bit worse than Healer.

[AnimeTheCat]

Do they ever say why? I can't think of a good reason to disallow it. I mean, maybe if they'd rather that the whole party rest for the night to wait for the party caster to get off a utility spell instead of continuing on 15 minutes later and avoiding a 15-minute workday, but I'd hardly call that a good reason.

Because it doesn't make sense with the rest of the information contained about divine spellcasting (such as needing to do it ritualistically at a specific time of the day). Also because it actually provides a reprecussion if the party is ill prepared. Besides, good encounter design includes more than one way to bypass or defeat it meaning that the 15 minutes it takes the cleric to prepare that new spell means that there's no reason for the party member that has the other way to bypass it to do anything, which invalidates party members, which is bad. If you lock your prepared casters in to specific spells, either they have the utility spell, or they don't, and if they don't, the other party members can use their abilities and you've now included the whole party.

[Troacctid]

It is the worst full 9 caster in the game by a decent margin. That’s not bad exactly.
Shugenja, healer, and shadowcaster are worse, and warmage and wilder are at least pretty close.

[el minster]

It's not as bad as Gneaus makes it out to be

[Gnaeus]

Shugenja, healer, and shadowcaster are worse, and warmage and wilder are at least pretty close.

The only true thing there is Shadowcaster, which I don’t consider a full caster. Healer and Shugenja are both clearly better. Spirit Shaman is an embarrassment in a game with an actual casting class.

I had to look up Shugenja. But it’s better too.

[el minster]

{scrubbed}. Also a spirit spirit shaman can be a healer if they want to and on other days they can be a blaster, summoner, buffer, or crowd controller and they can change every day

[Ramza00]

The problem with the spirit shaman is the number of spells known per day as in versality. With 2nd to 7th level spells the formula is 1/1/1/2/2/2 then 3 spells known per level on the 7th level. Thus a 9th level spirit shaman finally gets a third 2nd level spell known at level 9.

So let’s compare a level 9 Druid vs a level 9 Spirit Shaman. Let’s also give the Spirit Shaman Dynamic Priest from Dragonlance as a free feat.

4/4/3/2/1 spells as a 9th level Druid
2/2/2/2/1 with a 26 Wis (18 base, +2 race, +2 hd, +4 item which you can afford If crafted.)
6/6/5/4/2 Total Spells, where you can mix and match. Oh yeah also spontaneous summon nature ally for more versatility.

Compare to a Spirit Shaman
6/6/6/4/2 spells as a 9th level Spirit Shaman
2/2/2/2/1 spells with 26 Cha
8/8/8/6/3 Total Spells per day.
But here is the catch.
3/3/2/1/1 Spells retrieved per day. Your 4th and 5th spells are locked, might as well be prepared. You get 2 choices for 3rd level, aka limited versatility, and you only get 3 choices for 1st and 2nd level.

Spells per day are fine with Spirit Shaman, spell versatility is barely better than a Warlock.

[el minster]

that is true but they aren't as bad as a healer or a shegunja.

[Gnaeus]

If you had to look it up you obviously don't know what you're talking about. Also a spirit spirit shaman can be a healer if they want to and on other days they can be a blaster, summoner, buffer, or crowd controller and they can change every day

Being the worst caster in a different way every day still makes you the worst caster. And generally you don’t want to fill a different role every day. You want to mark out a niche that you do better than anyone else in your party. Yes, it’s nice to be able to switch out 2 buffs or blasts based on specific knowledge. But most of the time your spell list will be 80-90% the same, because those are your best spells, or the stuff you used feats on or that power your reserve feat.

Shugenja gets about twice as many spells as SS. They have enough spells known to be better than you in multiple categories. But also their individual spells are better. Teleport is just a more useful spell than is Transport Via Plant. Haste is a more generically useful spell than any Druid 3 combat spell. But also their metamagic interaction is better. A 3rd level blasting option is also a 5th and 6th level blasting option, without taking up 5th and 6th level spells known. Also they are single stat casters.

The “Best” spell is usually a little bit better in its circumstance than is a generalist spell. Which is nice for a wizard taking a specialty spell and 3 generalist spells in his top slots. The best spell for that day, even if you are lucky enough to know what it is, and lucky enough that it is on the part of the Druid list a SS can use, is not generally better across the day than 3 generally useful spells. Especially when those spells are pound for pound better than your best generalist spell.


that is true but they aren't as bad as a healer or a shegunja.

The healer comparison is more embarrassing for you. Healers are good prepared casters. That means that in addition to being a significantly better healer than SS, they qualify for sanctified spells. Sanctified spells tend to be super good at what they do. Like Greater Luminous Armor, which far exceeds any Druid defense buff of its level, (well, not really, the Druid, a prepared caster, can also take it. But the SS can’t) or the anti-evil sanctified blasting spell available virtually every level which you can safely drop on top of your fighter without regrets. Or Celestial Aspect, which is a better Fly spell with other combat whistles. Oh, and some sanctified summons that last for a YEAR.

Those sacrifice costs would be inconvenient, if the healer wasn’t also the single best class in the game at fixing ability damage (the tiny niche where they edge out Cleric)

But also they get a companion, who (at level 12+) casts off a better casting list than the SS, and who is unlikely to mind at all memorizing that Cleric 4 specialty spell you want to use once. And like almost every other full caster, domains are more beneficial for Healer than SS.

[Ramza00]

that is true but they aren't as bad as a healer or a shegunja.

Agree on a healer. The problem with shegunja is book creep. If limited to SRD and no splats with shaman vs shegunja list, well in that scenario I can make the case for the shegunja.

[Gnaeus]

Agree on a healer. The problem with shegunja is book creep. If limited to SRD and no splats with shaman vs shegunja list, well in that scenario I can make the case for the shegunja.

It’s a problem no doubt. But after you remove all the Druid spells that SS can’t use or shouldn’t retrieve, Shugenja list is comparable. Maybe a bit shorter, but with better spells.

[Thurbane]

The only true thing there is Shadowcaster, which I don’t consider a full caster. Healer and Shugenja are both clearly better. Spirit Shaman is an embarrassment in a game with an actual casting class.

I had to look up Shugenja. But it’s better too.

I can agree with a lot of that, but I'm struggling to see Healer as a clearly superior class to Spirit Shaman.

Now in fairness, I've never played either of these classes (aside from a Healer NPC that tagged along with the party for a brief stint in a game I ran a while back), but Healer has some pretty bad stuff going on with it.

At lower levels, you are pretty much shoehorned into nothing but healing and removing statuses. You get more options once you get a companion, and your high level spells include a handful of the good stuff, but the chassis needs a lot of extra resources and optimization to be much fun as a PC 1 through 20, at least from my reading.

Levels 1-7 seem to be a real drag, and that's where a lot of gaming takes place.

[Gnaeus]

I can agree with a lot of that, but I'm struggling to see Healer as a clearly superior class to Spirit Shaman.

Now in fairness, I've never played either of these classes (aside from a Healer NPC that tagged along with the party for a brief stint in a game I ran a while back), but Healer has some pretty bad stuff going on with it.

At lower levels, you are pretty much shoehorned into nothing but healing and removing statuses. You get more options once you get a companion, and your high level spells include a handful of the good stuff, but the chassis needs a lot of extra resources and optimization to be much fun as a PC 1 through 20, at least from my reading.

Levels 1-7 seem to be a real drag, and that's where a lot of gaming takes place.

Level 1-2 both classes are boring. Those are the levels where CLW is actually a good spell to cast. In combat it is still comparable to incoming damage. Out of combat you don’t have an infinite heal stick yet. It’s dull, yes, but it’s as good as any choice for a level 1 Shaman too. And healer is better at it than any but a healing specialist Cleric,

Otherwise, look at the exalted spells.
What 1 Druid spell is better than luminous armor and Ayailla’s radiant burst and cure moderate wounds(on steroids).
At level 3 what 1 Druid spell is better than Celestial Aspect, Hammer of Righteousness and Close wounds (Also on steroids). Honestly you could take celestial aspect in every slot. When wouldn’t it be handy? Cast it on the fighter for better than fly or on the wizard’s familiar for no save, no attack roll damage. The Horns variant dismisses any summoned or called creature without a save.
At level 4 what 1 Druid spell is better than greater luminous armor and freedom of movement and diamond spray or panacea or death ward.

And yes, you will want some optimization to make Healer better. But it’s an easier target for optimization than SS. For a domain to help SS it has to contain a spell that is better than the best spell he could retrieve, for an entire day. For a domain to help healer it has to contain spells that aren’t healing. It’s just easier to add spells known than spells retrieved.

[Thurbane]

Point taken (and this is the usual argument for Healer not sucking), but bear in mind that Sanctified spells aren't necessarily going to be on the table for every Healer out there, and that you're taking ability damage or other drawbacks every time you use one.

The fact an external mechanic form another book is required to make them playable doesn't speak well for Healer IMHO.

[Gnaeus]

Point taken (and this is the usual argument for Healer not sucking), but bear in mind that Sanctified spells aren't necessarily going to be on the table for every Healer out there, and that you're taking ability damage or other drawbacks every time you use one.

The fact an external mechanic form another book is required to make them playable doesn't speak well for Healer IMHO.

I’ll agree that healer drops a tier (and to below SS) without them.

Still. Look at the fighter versus wizard thread. OBVIOUSLY the fighter has 3 vile deformity feats and a regional setting specific feat. Clearly the wizard counters with a feat from Dragon. Sanctified spells are clearly legal on every single non-fallen healer (honestly they are more official than Healer is, since BoED is 3.5 and miniatures handbook is 3.0). And practical to use (again, healing ability damage is barely an inconvenience for them.)

If we want to restrict classes to core +1 (so in this case CDiv and MinH) yeah, Healer is behind SS. But Bard is probably ahead of it. Arguably the ToB classes. Very clearly Shugenja. I’ve made a lot of heartfelt arguments about why I think SS sucks, but I’m not arguing that they can’t access SPC, CChamp, Dragon Magic etc.

[Anthrowhale]

I feel an urge to defend the Druid list a little bit.

Entangle (L1) is amazing where it's useful in combination with ranged attacks.
Snowsight (L1) + Obscuring Snow (L2) is an extremely solid combo available to a Spirit Shaman. In standard adventures at least, liberal application of these spells leave nearly all enemies effectively blind against party members.
Bone Talisman (L2) is extremely powerful when you are running into undead. In effect, the Spirit Shaman can be a super-cleric, since caster level increases are common.
Flame Sands (L3, From Eggynack's list) is <level>d6 fire damage to 1/round for an entire encounter.
Boreal Wind (L4) is <level>d4 cold damage in an on-the-fly-choosable area for an entire encounter.
In a dungeon corridor, something like Wall of Sand (L4) suffocates enemies with no save.

Some of these seem like they could pass the test of being better than all other spells, particularly in the context of a party. As an extreme example, a party of 4 Spirit Shamans seems like it might be better than a party of 4 healers.

[el minster]

thank you for defending the honor of a respectable class

[Gnaeus]

I feel an urge to defend the Druid list a little bit.

Entangle (L1) is amazing where it's useful in combination with ranged attacks.
Snowsight (L1) + Obscuring Snow (L2) is an extremely solid combo available to a Spirit Shaman. In standard adventures at least, liberal application of these spells leave nearly all enemies effectively blind against party members.
Bone Talisman (L2) is extremely powerful when you are running into undead. In effect, the Spirit Shaman can be a super-cleric, since caster level increases are common.
Flame Sands (L3, From Eggynack's list) is <level>d6 fire damage to 1/round for an entire encounter.
Boreal Wind (L4) is <level>d4 cold damage in an on-the-fly-choosable area for an entire encounter.
In a dungeon corridor, something like Wall of Sand (L4) suffocates enemies with no save.

Some of these seem like they could pass the test of being better than all other spells, particularly in the context of a party. As an extreme example, a party of 4 Spirit Shamans seems like it might be better than a party of 4 healers.

Entangle is very situational. Strong, but situational. I wouldn’t want it as my only or one of 2 spells.

Snowsight + Obscuring Snow IS strong. But at low levels it’s your only trick. Your only top level spell combined with basically all your level 1 slots. So then you hit people with your staff I guess?

Bone Talisman is just a way to use low level slots at high levels once you have a lot of CL +. The Healer is perfectly willing to match his anti undead game, based on high powered cures and sanctified spells that tend to hit undead hard against the SS at any level.

Flame sands has several problems. First, I’m cool with the frostburn spells. Legit source. But does that web supplement even exist any more? That’s perilously close to “hey DM, let me tell you what this spell does. It’s legal I swear”. Second, it’s convenient that it repeats through the encounter, but its a fire spell, compared with a force spell that also does more damage versus evil, and a multi use buff, and a blindness spell that hits every evil target in 150+ feet.

Boreal wind is also a good spell. I wouldn’t say it’s clearly better than diamond spray (less DOT but more immediate damage, 60 cone versus long tube. Won’t hit your good aligned party members). And again, the Healer has a ton of utility at cl7/sl4. Panacea, death ward, freedom of movement, greater luminous armor are all very strong.

Wall of sand is 5th level Druid. It immediately gets compared with Curtain of Light, a Wall of Fire that your party can pass freely without harm. It’s a good spell no doubt. Would I be excited at the prospect of casting wall of sand every fight at CL9? Not really.

It’s true, I would prefer a party of SS over a party of healers. Of course I would prefer a party of Bards over either one. Is that the standard?


thank you for defending the honor of a respectable class
None of us is discussing a respectable class. Healer and Shugenja aren’t good. Only better than Spirit Shaman.

[Anthrowhale]

It’s true, I would prefer a party of SS over a party of healers. Of course I would prefer a party of Bards over either one. Is that the standard?

This is the essential bit. Are we evaluating a Spirit Shaman in the context of a party or on an individual basis?

In on individual basis, it's perhaps somewhat better than a Wilder since it has a stronger list and can change it day to day.
In a party context, it can fill a niche extremely well, with the niche varying as needed on a daily basis within the druid spell list range.

Whether or not the party context or the individual basis is the standard seems to depend on what game is being considered.

(Incidentally, Spellthief is similarly variable boat for a different reason. On their own, they are not very capable. In a party with 3 tier 1 spellcasters, they are much more capable since they can effectively double up whichever tier 1 spellcaster matters most for an encounter.)

[Gnaeus]

This is the essential bit. Are we evaluating a Spirit Shaman in the context of a party or on an individual basis?

In on individual basis, it's perhaps somewhat better than a Wilder since it has a stronger list and can change it day to day.
In a party context, it can fill a niche extremely well, with the niche varying as needed on a daily basis within the druid spell list range.

Whether or not the party context or the individual basis is the standard seems to depend on what game is being considered.

(Incidentally, Spellthief is similarly variable boat for a different reason. On their own, they are not very capable. In a party with 3 tier 1 spellcasters, they are much more capable since they can effectively double up whichever tier 1 spellcaster matters most for an encounter.)

True enough, but the question would you prefer a party of X or Y is a totally different question than is X or Y better in a full party. I would rather have a healer than a SS in my party of other characters. The snowsight combo is very good. But so is casting greater luminous armor armor on the monk and wizard and yourself or celestial aspect where needed. And it is a superior status healer. Heal, for maybe the best single example, is a fantastic spell in a party. Generally worth retrieving on the spirit shaman but obviously better as a Healer 6 spell. Greater Restoration as a spell like at 10 is good. Summoning a Pegasus mount for your fighter type for a year is good. Again, changing your niche every day isn’t usually a thing a party needs as much as just doing a better job at heal/buffing. Even the Healer’s blasting is party friendly (assuming party is non-evil)

[Anthrowhale]

I would rather have a healer than a SS in my party of other characters. The snowsight combo is very good. But so is casting greater luminous armor armor on the monk and wizard and yourself or celestial aspect where needed. And it is a superior status healer. Heal, for maybe the best single example, is a fantastic spell in a party. Generally worth retrieving on the spirit shaman but obviously better as a Healer 6 spell. Greater Restoration as a spell like at 10 is good. Summoning a Pegasus mount for your fighter type for a year is good. Again, changing your niche every day isn’t usually a thing a party needs as much as just doing a better job at heal/buffing. Even the Healer’s blasting is party friendly (assuming party is non-evil)

After some reflection, I still find myself preferring spirit shaman to play personally.
- Greater Luminous Armor is higher level (L4) than Obscuring Snow (L2), so the right comparator seems to be just Luminous Armor. I don't find Luminous Armor that appealing because of the "I'm here" aspect. Obscuring Snow also seems more comprehensive as it messes with both enemy targeting and enemy AC.
- The healer is better at removing status effects or healing, but it seems to generally be a 1-spell-level scale advantage. It's also not super clear to me that a 'heal' on the Healer is better than a retrieved 'heal' on a spirit shaman. One of the core issues with status effect removal/healing is that it's hard to predict how much is needed in advance which is not very compatible with the prepared spells of a Healer.
- The battlefield control that a spirit shaman can bring through the druid list is very important in practice in my experience, often the difference between losing and winning a fight. It's hard to say this is more important than healing since some mechanism for removing status effects and healing is important. However, there are many other ways to achieve healing/status effect removal.

It may also just boil down to commitment issues. I have difficulty committing to the limited range of the healer list, even when it is augmented with sanctified spells.

[RedWarlock]

(honestly they are more official than Healer is, since BoED is 3.5 and miniatures handbook is 3.0).

MHB is NOT 3.0, it's very much 3.5. It was one of the first 3.5 books published, but definitely after the 3.5 core. Swift actions were introduced in that book, and then immediate actions were added in the XPH right after.

[Troacctid]

One of the core issues with status effect removal/healing is that it's hard to predict how much is needed in advance which is not very compatible with the prepared spells of a Healer.
While I agree with this sentiment in regards to prepared vs. spontaneous casting in general, it doesn't really apply to the spirit shaman. A spirit shaman who only has a single known spell of her highest level does not gain any advantage from spontaneous casting because the slot isn't actually flexible—there's only one spell you can use it to cast. It's the same as a prepared caster preparing the same spell in all of their slots of that level.

(Okay, yes, you can use it to cast lower-level spells, but is that really where you want to be? Using your 7th level slot to cast summon monster IV with no metamagic?)

[Anthrowhale]

While I agree with this sentiment in regards to prepared vs. spontaneous casting in general, it doesn't really apply to the spirit shaman. A spirit shaman who only has a single known spell of her highest level does not gain any advantage from spontaneous casting because the slot isn't actually flexible—there's only one spell you can use it to cast. It's the same as a prepared caster preparing the same spell in all of their slots of that level.

(Okay, yes, you can use it to cast lower-level spells, but is that really where you want to be? Using your 7th level slot to cast summon monster IV with no metamagic?)

There are 3 levels over which a Spirit Shaman has a single 7th level spell retrieved. Comparing, the first level (13) is like a sorcerer except that sorcerers have no 7th level spells known. The second level (14) is like a sorcerer, except that the Spirit Shaman can change their spell known each day but are stuck with a fixed metamagic. The 3rd level(15) is like a sorcerer, except that you have a 7th and 8th level spell retrieved instead of 2 7th level spells known. Overall, it's not super clear to me that this mechanic is actually worse than a sorcerers. There's an obvious difference in lists, but SSs have better skills, better saves, a better bab, and some nontrival class features to round things out.

Put another way, if you could stick the spirit shaman spell mechanic on a sorcerer chassis with the sorcerer list, would you? Gaining that extra level of spell advancement is pretty tempting.

[Malphegor]

I will throw out that it is somewhat fascinating that Spirit Shaman’s particular spell prep method seems to be the origin of the 5e Wizard’s version of spell prep.

Which means if one homebrewed a spirit shaman to use a spellbook and cast arcane spells you could probably use it as the basis to backport a 5e wizard into 3.5.., for whatever ungodly reason you have for doing so.

As is, it’s a weird class. Having druid spells means you get a lot of spells that you have no use for unless you build yourself to be a druid knockoff. But there are a lot of solid spells in the druid lists, especially on the summoning side, and the permament minions side.

The particular nature of spell prep is... Strange. You’re a prepared caster. So sorta like an archivist/wizard. But you know every spell on your list. So you’re more like a sorcerer but you get your full spell list rather than spells known.

It might take a few readings to figure out where you fall in terms of qualifying for feats. Ultimately, it looks like the class is designed for dealing with spirits, so maybe it’s a ghostbuster of sorts? I dunno.

The Spirit Animal has minimal mechanical effect which sucks. A good DM might be able to use it for something, but it only having access to your senses is weird.

What I would do in fact is have your spirit animal be fluffed as a sort of natural Vestige like those the Binder summons. That would have some really interesting implications for the world and how one interacts with the beings that exist beyond our world. But that’s just my quick ‘okay lets make this less stereotypical fiction native american shaman character’.

[el minster]

I think the spirit animal is actually all in your head

[GrayDeath]

Hmmmm, forgot this class was such a conundrum.

Only ever played it once outside PC RPGs, and that was at medium levels in a medium OP Group, where it worked a buit low on power, but fine.


Given all the problems mentioned in the thread, what would you do to fix it but still keep the Spirit Shaman clearly different (ergo leave his kinda wonky leanred/retrived Spells) but put it on par with the Middle of T2 (the Favoured Soul), where it should be?

Is it as easy as "add one more spell known, make it Charisma Single and allow it to learn one Conjuration Spelll per Level from the Sorcerer List instead"?

[Gnaeus]

There are 3 levels over which a Spirit Shaman has a single 7th level spell retrieved. Comparing, the first level (13) is like a sorcerer except that sorcerers have no 7th level spells known. The second level (14) is like a sorcerer, except that the Spirit Shaman can change their spell known each day but are stuck with a fixed metamagic. The 3rd level(15) is like a sorcerer, except that you have a 7th and 8th level spell retrieved instead of 2 7th level spells known. Overall, it's not super clear to me that this mechanic is actually worse than a sorcerers. There's an obvious difference in lists, but SSs have better skills, better saves, a better bab, and some nontrival class features to round things out.

Put another way, if you could stick the spirit shaman spell mechanic on a sorcerer chassis with the sorcerer list, would you? Gaining that extra level of spell advancement is pretty tempting.

But a sorcerer can also use metamagic in that slot without it taking a spell known. He is very likely to have AT LEAST 3 or 4 effective spells known at level 14.

And I might, but only because Sorcerers have more spells that I would cast every combat. Oh, so I have to cast Haste in every fight level 5-7? I was going to anyway. I have to cast Polymorph every fight level 7-9? I was going to anyway. I’m just going to feel bad that I now have to use a 5th level slot for extended polymorph or waste my 5th slots casting a 4th level spell.

Bear in mind that the spell retrieval mechanic is of near 0 value here. It’s solely a trade off between early spell access and more spells known.



Given all the problems mentioned in the thread, what would you do to fix it but still keep the Spirit Shaman clearly different (ergo leave his kinda wonky leanred/retrived Spells) but put it on par with the Middle of T2 (the Favoured Soul), where it should be?

Is it as easy as "add one more spell known, make it Charisma Single and allow it to learn one Conjuration Spelll per Level from the Sorcerer List instead"?

That would almost certainly do it.
I’d say any two of:
Add Spells from domain relevant to their Deity (or the Something like the PF shaman’s spirit) to spells known. Or automatically give them all the cures or SNAs. Or just more spells retrieved. (Cha single casting doesn’t help it as much as it should, since the easiest ways to add effective spells known are spontaneous healer and spontaneous summoner, which have Wis uses/day.)

Give them the Arcanist (PF) metamagic Rules for prepared spells.

Wildshape, or full BAB and a better combat chassis (make the buffs on the list actually worth retrieving/give it a fallback plan in case it picked bad spells)

A more universally useful set of class abilities. Like wizard bonus feats or the witch hexes Aotrs was suggesting. (You could maybe call this a freebee if you actually were going to be able to use all the spirit stuff regularly. Like the big bad is some ancient unseelie thing and most of his minions are ghosts and Fey.)

Some kind of robust addition to its spell list to compensate for all the stuff it cant meaningfully use.

[Thurbane]

Hmmmm, forgot this class was such a conundrum.

Only ever played it once outside PC RPGs, and that was at medium levels in a medium OP Group, where it worked a buit low on power, but fine.

And that is an extremely relevant point: many tables are medium to low op (I know most of the ones I played at are), and pretty much any class, including Spirit Shamans, are quite viable and can be fun to play.

It's to be expected on a forum where a lot of the conversation revolves around optimisation, but there is often an attitude (and this is a general observation, not aimed at anyone in this thread or elsewhere) that you can't have fun with with certain classes, or that they aren't worth playing at all. I don't subscribe to this opinion at all.

I can't remember who, but a forum member here has a quote in their sig to the effect of "Eating high quality steak at a restaurant is nice, but sometimes I just enjoy having a plain old cheeseburger!", in relation to playing Tier 1 (steak) or low Tier (cheeseburger) classes. :smallbiggrin:

[Anthrowhale]

Bear in mind that the spell retrieval mechanic is of near 0 value here. It’s solely a trade off between early spell access and more spells known.

I generally agree, although it seems worth noting that the retrieval mechanic is advantageous with scribe scroll due to the ability to create scrolls from the entire list.

[JeminiZero]

Out of curiosity, how does the playground feel about Spirit Shaman with Extra Spell Known-Mnemonic Enhancer (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mnemonicEnhancer.htm)? Only can be taken at L9 earliest.

A reasonable interpretation is that SS casts it, and can then prepare any L3 spell on their list (or L1 + L2, or 3x L1).

It seems like a great way to access one-off spells. E.g. since Obscuring Snow is hrs/CL, you only need 1 casting, and can get it through Mnemonic Enhancer.

It also works for pulling out situational spells. E.g. Party stumbles upon quest to try and find somebody. SS can use Mnemonic Enhancer to access Circle Dance on the fly.

[Gnaeus]

Out of curiosity, how does the playground feel about Spirit Shaman with Extra Spell Known-Mnemonic Enhancer (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mnemonicEnhancer.htm)? Only can be taken at L9 earliest.

A reasonable interpretation is that SS casts it, and can then prepare any L3 spell on their list (or L1 + L2, or 3x L1).

It seems like a great way to access one-off spells. E.g. since Obscuring Snow is hrs/CL, you only need 1 casting, and can get it through Mnemonic Enhancer.

It also works for pulling out situational spells. E.g. Party stumbles upon quest to try and find somebody. SS can use Mnemonic Enhancer to access Circle Dance on the fly.

Raw, I don’t think they can use it. You prepare the spells normally and they can’t prepare spells. They retrieve them. Also, there’s a sage option which says extra spell doesn’t do that, so some DMs will say not RAI.

I think many reasonable DMs would allow it. But I think most reasonable DMs would follow (for example) the recommendation in SPC and expand spell lists for limited list casters.

Functionally, it probably doesn’t matter much. So you win the rules argument. Then, at 9th level, (the first feat after 4th level spells) you spend a feat, to give yourself what amounts to 3 levels of scrolls, that last 24 hours, but only if you can devote a useless spell retrieved on the day before. If you already have spontaneous healer, spontaneous summoner and scribe scroll, and extend spell, and you don’t need feats like augment summon or another crafting feat, it’s ok. But if extra spell works that way, you could just take polymorph and be better off with less confusing rules.

[Darg]

The extra spell feat gives you a floater spell known considering you are explicitly allowed to switch out your spells known. This could give you up to 6 floaters if you so desired. 7 with spellstaff.

Depending on DM approval (RAW+RAI vs FAQ vs if it is actually game breaking considering you could have someone else have these spells regardless) it could also provide you access to spells you can't normally access (other class lists for example). I'd say SS is the best class to take advantage of this.

If you have versatile spellcaster and Sanctum Spell (or other cheese metamagic) you qualify to apply extra spell to your highest spell level while meditating in your sanctum. Unlike other casters this makes much more sense because you are going from variable to variable instead of variable to static.

If extra spell won't be giving you free access to other spells, you can still get access to domains in a few ways. Get the summoner domain and you qualify for malconvoker to be the defacto best summoner you can be. Get access to the spell domain and you can add or duplicate any arcane spell up to level 6 or divine spells up to level 5 to your repertoire.

Spontaneous feats give you free access to spells without having to retrieve them.

Also, Word of Balance is a really good no save and die spell, provided you can boost your caster level high enough. Which let's be honest, isn't that hard.

[Troacctid]

Spirit shamans don't have spells known. They can't use abilities that require them to know spells.

[Darg]

She can cast any spell she has retrieved, much like a bard or sorcerer can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time.

Like a sorcerer, a spirit shaman knows only a small number of spells. However, each day a spirit shaman may change the spells she knows.

Looks like they do to me. They don't have a spells known table because their mechanic is simply more complex than a sorcerer or FS and is variable. Spells retrieved is a clearer descriptor for a table, but it doesn't mean they aren't known.


Each spirit shaman must choose a time at which she must spend 1 hour in quiet meditation to regain her daily allotment of spells and bargain with the spirits for the specific spells she knows on that day.

[Gnaeus]

The extra spell feat gives you a floater spell known considering you are explicitly allowed to switch out your spells known. This could give you up to 6 floaters if you so desired. 7 with spellstaff.

Depending on DM approval (RAW+RAI vs FAQ vs if it is actually game breaking considering you could have someone else have these spells regardless) it could also provide you access to spells you can't normally access (other class lists for example). I'd say SS is the best class to take advantage of this.

If you have versatile spellcaster and Sanctum Spell (or other cheese metamagic) you qualify to apply extra spell to your highest spell level while meditating in your sanctum. Unlike other casters this makes much more sense because you are going from variable to variable instead of variable to static.

Extra spell doesn’t give you an extra spell retrieved. It gives a single spell known. You can take it again for another single spell known.


If extra spell won't be giving you free access to other spells, you can still get access to domains in a few ways. Get the summoner domain and you qualify for malconvoker to be the defacto best summoner you can be. Get access to the spell domain and you can add or duplicate any arcane spell up to level 6 or divine spells up to level 5 to your repertoire.

The spells from Anyspell take up your domain spell slot, which you don’t have. You can’t use it even if you get it.

Adding domains is less useful for SS than pretty much any other caster. Summoner, for example, is kind of trash. Summon monster isn’t really better than summon nature’s ally (especially after you factor in ring of the beast and the other SNA specific tricks) so having both available doesn’t really help a lot.

Can you show me a build where the malconvoker trick works? It seems to me that you would need to start out with Contemplative, which requires 13 ranks in an out of class skill. So you spend a feat on knowledge devotion (which doesn’t otherwise help you much with your split wis/Cha casting.) You spend a bunch more ranks getting bluff and know planes (neither class skills for SS). Then at about 12th level you give up a caster level and ruin your decent chassis (Malconvoker gets poor BAB, hp, skills, saves), so that at 13th level you can add planar binding to your spells known. Which may or may not (I think it does not) even add it to your spells retrieved. I think you would need to use spell received slots to even use them.

That seems like a breathtakingly worse way to be a malconvoker than, say, be a beguiler. Take arcane disciple at 3. You have all the skills in class and you unambiguously get to use the planar binding spells earlier than the level delayed SS.

[Ramza00]

Given all the problems mentioned in the thread, what would you do to fix it but still keep the Spirit Shaman clearly different (ergo leave his kinda wonky leanred/retrived Spells) but put it on par with the Middle of T2 (the Favoured Soul), where it should be?

Is it as easy as "add one more spell known, make it Charisma Single and allow it to learn one Conjuration Spelll per Level from the Sorcerer List instead"?

If it was me fixing the spirit shaman specifically for 3.5 I would do something like this.


Keep the 3.5 spirit shaman casting system but make it charisma only.
remove the spirit shaman class abilities, or significantly rework them. They feel like a mess and inconsistent whether they are not helpful or actually helpful with no gradient in between. This is not fun game design.
So pathfinder had a hybrid class called the shaman which was a prepared spell caster that mixed witch and oracle. Well it was 9 levels, with 9s at 17th level spellcaster with class abilities. Well replace the spirit shaman class abilities with the shaman class abilities. Make these class abilities be charisma based not wisdom.
This will give the spirit shaman a familiar with some modifications called a spirit animal.
This will give the spirit shaman spirit magic so they get a domain like spell they can cast spontaneously. This is because Spirit Magic gives you 9 spells per day that you can use 1 per day.
This will give the spirit shaman hexes but not greater hexes.
One of the spirits is the lore spirit. I would redo this spirit arcane enlightenment ability to cherry pick wizard spells to instead cherry pick shaman spells (remember your spells are druid based.) Shaman spells are a mixture of pathfinder witch and oracle (similar to cleric) but also not the full witch or oracle pathfinder list. This ability would run off of wisdom and not intelligence or charisma. That said this modified spirit is not necessarily the spirit you need to grab with your class ability.


The final result would be a tier 2 spellcaster that feels differently than everything else.

[Darg]

Extra spell doesn’t give you an extra spell retrieved. It gives a single spell known. You can take it again for another single spell known.

It gives you a spell known of a spell you don't already have. Technically speaking it could be any spell. The SS class feature specifically describes the known spells as the spells that were retrieved. As Extra Spell gives you a spell known and the feat doesn't stop existing just because you got a spell (it's the sole reason you have the spell so unless you are a wizard that wrote the spell down it disappears if you lose the feat) you can swap out the spell known as the description tells you that the SS is allowed to swap out spells that they know.

However, each day a spirit shaman may change the spells she knows.


The spells from Anyspell take up your domain spell slot, which you don’t have. You can’t use it even if you get it.

If you base domains on the spontaneous divine casters entry from the SRD you get domain spells as additional spells known. Whether or not you have domain spell slots is up to interpretation. Normally a domain spell slot can only be used by your domain spells and domain spells can't be used in normal slots normally. If we follow that rule then spontaneous casters spontaneously convert spell slots into domain slots as they spontaneously cast a spell. Therefore any spell slot used to cast a domain spell is a domain spell slot.


Adding domains is less useful for SS than pretty much any other caster. Summoner, for example, is kind of trash. Summon monster isn’t really better than summon nature’s ally (especially after you factor in ring of the beast and the other SNA specific tricks) so having both available doesn’t really help a lot.

Can you show me a build where the malconvoker trick works? It seems to me that you would need to start out with Contemplative, which requires 13 ranks in an out of class skill. So you spend a feat on knowledge devotion (which doesn’t otherwise help you much with your split wis/Cha casting.) You spend a bunch more ranks getting bluff and know planes (neither class skills for SS). Then at about 12th level you give up a caster level and ruin your decent chassis (Malconvoker gets poor BAB, hp, skills, saves), so that at 13th level you can add planar binding to your spells known. Which may or may not (I think it does not) even add it to your spells retrieved. I think you would need to use spell received slots to even use them.

That seems like a breathtakingly worse way to be a malconvoker than, say, be a beguiler. Take arcane disciple at 3. You have all the skills in class and you unambiguously get to use the planar binding spells earlier than the level delayed SS.

The malconvoker is hardly min/maxing. I was just stating it as the ultimate summoner in terms of variety of summons and in terms of having choices of when to cast what. I was being a little cheeky.

Domains however, are valuable to all classes that have a limited list of spells known to increase their repertoire.