A game world with this rule for magic?

[SangoProduction]

I was reading this drawback from Spheres of Power, and considered if all spells used this.


Your magic draws upon the primal energy and nutrients of the terrain. Whenever you use a sphere talent or ability you must either spend an additional spell point or increase your casting time by one step, else your magic drains and corrupts your space and all adjacent squares. Terrain that has been blighted in such a manner prevents those who possess the Terrain Casting drawback from using sphere talents or abilities as if it were a dead magic zone. Areas that have had its nutrients drained are affected in different ways depending upon location (water may turn brackish or stagnant, while soil may become barren or salted); regardless of location, blighted areas will generally heal naturally after a year.

Maybe not quite as extreme, taking a month per spell level to naturally heal, and only spells greater than 4 actually kill off / blight the land in its entirety. (Up to 4th, it's really just making it unhealthy, and at progressively greater risk of death.) But that's still pretty severe, and places a clear label of "evil leeches," on casters. As well as a fairly obvious trail to follow, if that is at all a concern.

What are some things that would be the consequence of such a parasitic nature to magic?

Particularly the most interesting consequences, like jailing spell casters actually being reliably effective....if you actually have a willing spell caster who gets into a cell meant to lock up spell casters, and create dead magic zones. In a setting that would probably be pretty hostile to casters. Then again, headsmen / executioners were similarly shunned by society, excluding during the French Revolution, and executioners could still be found. Executioners also didn't have the power of gods at their finger tips.

Which does bring it to the topic of gods and religion. Good gods would probably be hesitant to "grant" casting. Meanwhile evil (save for a potential few lawful evil) gods would have no problem with blighting the world and bringing all the souls to their quick demise.

[torrasque666]

That's just Dark Sun's magic system.

[Zanos]

That's just Dark Sun's magic system.
Yes, although intentionally defiling in dark sun puts infinite arcane might right in front of every arcane spellcaster. I don't think psionics requires this at all, either.

The consequences would be similar though; magic users everywhere are hunted for ruining the planet.

[icefractal]

Interesting that it makes it dead-magic-like. Means if everyone has that, you can keep yourself/a door/whatever magic-proof by just draining the vicinity.

[Bruh_moment]

As was said above me, this is just dark sun, So essentially Wasteland world if you've never heard of DS

[SangoProduction]

Well, Dark Sun seems interesting then. I'll look it up.

[Silly Name]

Dark Sun immediately sprung to my mind too, but not every magic system that use this "Defiling" aspect would generate a Dark Sun-like setting.

Without the specific events of Dark Sun that turned Athas in a desolate landscape, it's not a necessity that any setting with Defiling magic would behave like Dark Sun.

Immediate consequences of what this system may imply both for setting and characters:

- Wizards are heavily regulated, and failure to follow the rules results in a mob after your heard. Depending on how advanced the setting is, you may even need a license or government approval, and sorcerers may be placed in the "care" of the state when discovered.

- OR they are hermits and exiles, the few ones that live in larger communities do not speak openly of their powers or display them. Wizard schools aren't a thing, there are weird old men who secretly gather in the woods at night to exchange arcane secrets and debate if there are any youngsters they can pass their knowledge onto. Being a wizard or a sorcerer is a death sentence in itself.

- If there are any strongholds of wizardry, it'd be in the interests of their inhabitants to keep the surrounding lands lush and verdant, both as a source-power for spells and as a way to show they aren't going around destroying the land. (or even as a way to hide themselves)

- Should this apply to Druids? It feels wrong for druidic magic to spoil the land, so maybe Druids/divine casters in general are respected and valued unlike arcane casters, and druids would constantly fight and badmouth wizards.

- Particularly unscrupulous armies may use spellcasters to covertly devastate the enemy's crops: even a couple months of "dead land" is enough to ruin an harvest, and no army can fight on a empty stomach.

- Lastly, this heavily discourages wizards from going nova at the start of a battle if higher level spell=higher chance of spoiling the land and therefore being unable to cast in those spaces, and also should require modifying how dungeons and extraplanar adventures work: how does this magic work if there is no "terrain" around?

[SangoProduction]

Dark Sun immediately sprung to my mind too, but not every magic system that use this "Defiling" aspect would generate a Dark Sun-like setting.

Without the specific events of Dark Sun that turned Athas in a desolate landscape, it's not a necessity that any setting with Defiling magic would behave like Dark Sun.

Immediate consequences of what this system may imply both for setting and characters:

- Wizards are heavily regulated, and failure to follow the rules results in a mob after your heard. Depending on how advanced the setting is, you may even need a license or government approval, and sorcerers may be placed in the "care" of the state when discovered.

- OR they are hermits and exiles, the few ones that live in larger communities do not speak openly of their powers or display them. Wizard schools aren't a thing, there are weird old men who secretly gather in the woods at night to exchange arcane secrets and debate if there are any youngsters they can pass their knowledge onto. Being a wizard or a sorcerer is a death sentence in itself.

- If there are any strongholds of wizardry, it'd be in the interests of their inhabitants to keep the surrounding lands lush and verdant, both as a source-power for spells and as a way to show they aren't going around destroying the land. (or even as a way to hide themselves)

- Should this apply to Druids? It feels wrong for druidic magic to spoil the land, so maybe Druids/divine casters in general are respected and valued unlike arcane casters, and druids would constantly fight and badmouth wizards.

- Particularly unscrupulous armies may use spellcasters to covertly devastate the enemy's crops: even a couple months of "dead land" is enough to ruin an harvest, and no army can fight on a empty stomach.

- Lastly, this heavily discourages wizards from going nova at the start of a battle if higher level spell=higher chance of spoiling the land and therefore being unable to cast in those spaces, and also should require modifying how dungeons and extraplanar adventures work: how does this magic work if there is no "terrain" around?

Nice. Thanks for engaging. To address the questions, I could see the argument that druid magic would be less harmful for the land. But I'd also say that druids have a fair deal of non-spell abilities, and when forced to use spells are less likely to take the defiling option, choosing for the slower / more expensive route. And they would probably be trained to tend to the areas which they are forced to defile.

For dungeons, magic would probably need some form of life and nutrition for the option to drain the area. Thus entirely metal areas would probably not be applicable. But more or less "natural" dungeons would be fine.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by SangoProduction
For dungeons, magic would probably need some form of life and nutrition for the option to drain the area. Thus entirely metal areas would probably not be applicable. But more or less "natural" dungeons would be fine.

Not sure I see the distinction you're making here. What do you mean by "metal areas" vs. "natural" dungeons?

[SangoProduction]

Not sure I see the distinction you're making here. What do you mean by "metal areas" vs. "natural" dungeons?

As in, if you wandered into a mad scientist lab, with chrome metal walls, ceilings and floors, it would probably not have anything you could drain from the area.

Meanwhile, if you were invading some local small, monstrous humanoid subsurface homes, roughly hewn out of the stone and dirt of the land...well, any gardener can tell you that dirt is pretty bio-active, even if there's no obvious greenery growing on it.

[Psyren]

I guarantee that Dark Sun is where the concept for this Spheres drawback originated. It's been around for a long time.


Interesting that it makes it dead-magic-like. Means if everyone has that, you can keep yourself/a door/whatever magic-proof by just draining the vicinity.

Well, define "everyone." It might affect the spellcasters, sure, but monsters probably don't have that drawback - especially nature-focused ones like fey or magical beasts.

[Zanos]

I think the specific issue in Dark Sun is that you can cast even in mostly desolate areas with a small penalty, and defiling, while optional, is so incredibly powerful that basically nobody can stand against a defiler without being very well organized. The other issue is that defiling supernaturally despoils the land, making it nearly impossible for anything to grow when it gets bad enough. A druid can reverse it but it takes a very long time and isn't easy.

The inevitable conclusion in Athas is that basically everyone in charge is some form of arcane caster, psion, or both.

I don't think you can have magic users that aren't generally hated by most people. Even if their specific type of magic doesn't spoil the land, your average Joe probably isn't going to know the difference between John McGoodMagic and Badman McKillplants.

[Psyren]

I think the specific issue in Dark Sun is that you can cast even in mostly desolate areas with a small penalty, and defiling, while optional, is so incredibly powerful that basically nobody can stand against a defiler without being very well organized. The other issue is that defiling supernaturally despoils the land, making it nearly impossible for anything to grow when it gets bad enough. A druid can reverse it but it takes a very long time and isn't easy.

The inevitable conclusion in Athas is that basically everyone in charge is some form of arcane caster, psion, or both.

I don't think you can have magic users that aren't generally hated by most people. Even if their specific type of magic doesn't spoil the land, your average Joe probably isn't going to know the difference between John McGoodMagic and Badman McKillplants.

Are there not druids on Athas? I know it's a 2e setting so the answer might be no, but I'm curious. If John McGoodMagic is literally saving your crops, that might be a good sign.

[Zanos]

Are there not druids on Athas? I know it's a 2e setting so the answer might be no, but I'm curious. If John McGoodMagic is literally saving your crops, that might be a good sign.
There are druids in athas, but they are rare. They stay away from civilization because the large population centers in Athas are ruled by epic level wizard/psions who have transformed themselves into dragons, and these 'sorcerer-kings' despise druids and kill them on sight. The feeling is mutual, but good luck killing an epic dragon wizard psion thing. The average joes interaction with magic is limited to defilers, who are nearly universally Evil jerks, the sorcerer-kings included, or their local templars, who are just servants of the sorcerer-kings who spend most of their time kicking in peasants teeth for not bowing far enough when they ask. It doesn't help that the sorcerer-kings would sooner see a rival arcane caster killed then allow them to master magic and become a rival, so even if someone is actually a non-defiling wizard, you'll probably never know. If they're discovered, they'll most likely be killed because people either can't tell the difference or don't care.

Athas is not a nice place to live if that wasn't clear.

[stack]

I guarantee that Dark Sun is where the concept for this Spheres drawback originated. It's been around for a long time.


I didn't write that one, but Dark Sun was discussed, yes. I once drafted a lesser drawback that was similar, inspired by Brandon Sanderson's White Sands. Think I cut it due to overlap?

[Psyren]

The Druids essentially having to live undercover would explain it, yes. Thanks!

[SangoProduction]

I don't entirely understand it. Wouldn't sorcerer-kings love to have druids under their employ to help heal the land they defile? Or is it coming from druids not wanting to enable such behavior, so they choose to be antagonistic, and effectively just let it happen unabated?

[Silly Name]

For one, the Sorcerer-Kings are pretty awful people on their own right. They all participated in a genocidal war under the orders of their teacher (Rajaat), some of them completely wiping out certain races (explaining why they don't exist on Athas), and only turning on the aforementioned teacher when they realised he'd kill them too to complete his "purge".

And overall, they are tyrannical rulers who indulge in horrific rituals and put Caligula to shame on all levels. Since the Sorcerer-Kings and their teacher were the ones to start the whole "defile the land to power magic" thing, most everyone hates them, and druids doubly so since they're responsible for turning an once-verdant world into a barren desert.

Oh, and they're all paranoid (probably for good reason), so as Zenos said they'd all rather kill any spellcasters they come across rather than risk them ever becoming powerful enough to challenge them.

[Bruh_moment]

I don't entirely understand it. Wouldn't sorcerer-kings love to have druids under their employ to help heal the land they defile? Or is it coming from druids not wanting to enable such behavior, so they choose to be antagonistic, and effectively just let it happen unabated?
Well morals don't really come into play when it comes to things serving sorcerer kings they can and will mind rape you into working for them.
And from the little I know of sorcere kings I think that they wouldn't care about the land they defile, why should they? They're psionic wizard gods essentially

[Zanos]

I don't entirely understand it. Wouldn't sorcerer-kings love to have druids under their employ to help heal the land they defile? Or is it coming from druids not wanting to enable such behavior, so they choose to be antagonistic, and effectively just let it happen unabated?
It's because Athas is a little different than what you proposed. Even in completely barren areas you can still cast arcane spells, you just kill all the trace plant and animal life over a much wider area, and take some penalties. I think there's only one area in the setting where the defiling is so awful that you can't cast at all. In addition, the sorcerer-kings are also usually full psions. Dregoth, for example, is Wiz 7/Psion 8/Cerebramancer 5/Arch Defiler 10/Athasian Dragon 8, total CR of 49. Even if defiling does shut off his arcane casting, he is so powerful that his defiling can actually rip the life energy directly from living creatures(like the people he is fighting) to power his spells. Moreover, as CR 49 dragon and a psion, he does not need arcane casting to deliver a beat down.

Druids would also never work with a defiler willingly, they are the anathema, and the reason Athas is blighted in the first place.

[Eldaran]

I didn't write that one, but Dark Sun was discussed, yes. I once drafted a lesser drawback that was similar, inspired by Brandon Sanderson's White Sands. Think I cut it due to overlap?

I've got a campaign using Spheres of Power as the orders of the Knights Radiant (each order gets 3 spheres with some overlap), so neat to see some Brandon Sanderson love from the designers.

[stack]

I've got a campaign using Spheres of Power as the orders of the Knights Radiant (each order gets 3 spheres with some overlap), so neat to see some Brandon Sanderson love from the designers.

I don't write for the company anymore, but I don't think I am the only Sanderson fan. Check out the artifact finis in the item book (also on the wiki). It is less a homage than a blatant rip-off.

But I won't derail the thread further.

[Chronos]

See also the Warlock's Wheel stories, by Larry Niven. It's basically classic swords and sorcery, except that one of the (very rare and extremely powerful) spellcasters has discovered that magic is tied to the land, and is a limited and non-renewable resource. So he created a spell that, basically, does nothing but expend magical energy to make a disc turn very quickly, to rapidly drain magic from a region and create a dead magic zone. But he also wants to keep the existence of that spell an absolute secret, and as much as possible to keep spellcasters from casting any spells, because he knows that eventually, all of the magic will be gone from the entire world.

It's a little different in that draining magic on this way has no effect on (natural) life (though it's obviously detrimental to supernatural creatures), and it's permanent and irreversible once done. But it still has it being relatively easy to produce dead-magic just by using magic.

[DrMartin]

a later Dark Sun book introduced the option to defile the land when you prepare spell instead of when you cast them - this also introduced the chance to drain less or more energy than the norm from the land, meaning that Defilers faced the chance to not draw enough energy to prepare their higher level spells - or to draw extra, and have more prepared. Draining energy gets harder the more barren the land is when you are preparing spells.

Maybe give this as an option to casters that pick the prepared caster drawback - either through a drawback feat if you think the flexibility deserves it, or as a baseline interaction of those drawbacks in the setting.

[Asmotherion]

I've never used and honestly kinda dislike the spheres of power system. The rest sounds dark sun-centered though. Nothing new, probably just an adaptation.

[SangoProduction]

a later Dark Sun book introduced the option to defile the land when you prepare spell instead of when you cast them - this also introduced the chance to drain less or more energy than the norm from the land, meaning that Defilers faced the chance to not draw enough energy to prepare their higher level spells - or to draw extra, and have more prepared. Draining energy gets harder the more barren the land is when you are preparing spells.

Maybe give this as an option to casters that pick the prepared caster drawback - either through a drawback feat if you think the flexibility deserves it, or as a baseline interaction of those drawbacks in the setting.

Yeah. That's interesting.