Why is Radiant Soul worded in such a crap way?

[Greywander]

Okay, I kind of understand. Some clerics get Potent Spellcasting, adding their WIS mod to all their cantrip damage rolls. Word of Radiance didn't exist then, it was just Sacred Flame. Then Word of Radiance came out, and Potent Spellcasting suddenly became a pretty huge damage boost, since it would multiply with the number of targets. So when they wrote Radiant Soul, perhaps they were just trying to avoid something similar occurring later on. But still.

If AoE was the concern, then making it add the damage only once per turn should suffice. Especially since Create Bonfire is on the warlock list (and Flaming Sphere and Wall of Fire are on the Celestial list). Making it once per spell makes it really only useful for instantaneous single-target spells, of which the warlock does not get a lot that deal fire or radiant damage. Oh yeah, and your limited pact magic slots means this isn't even useful for leveled spells at all, and the only instantaneous fire/radiant cantrip warlocks get is GFB.

It's just so weirdly restrictive. I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what the purpose of this feature is supposed to be. It's just such a piddly amount of damage that it only really matters if you're able to get that bonus damage consistently (which you're not doing if you're using EB). The one thing it does do is make a non-EB warlock viable, especially since you get free Sacred Flame, but you'll lag behind an EB warlock with relevant invocations.

TL;DR, I'm salty because I wanted to build a Celestial warlock that uses Repelling Blast to push enemies into Create Bonfire, and feel like I'm getting nothing from this class feature.

How I'd fix this:
Make it once per turn, but only if you specifically want it to work with things like Create Bonfire, Flaming Sphere, or Wall of Fire.
Alternatively, change the damage bonus to be equal to your warlock level instead of your CHA mod. Now the damage boost is more significant, Sacred Flame can actually compete damage-wise with EB, and multiclass builds can't get the full benefit for cheese. Even for something like Create Bonfire, that one-time damage boost is enough that it would make a difference, possibly downing an enemy one turn sooner.

[Dork_Forge]

Okay, I kind of understand. Some clerics get Potent Spellcasting, adding their WIS mod to all their cantrip damage rolls. Word of Radiance didn't exist then, it was just Sacred Flame. Then Word of Radiance came out, and Potent Spellcasting suddenly became a pretty huge damage boost, since it would multiply with the number of targets. So when they wrote Radiant Soul, perhaps they were just trying to avoid something similar occurring later on. But still.

If AoE was the concern, then making it add the damage only once per turn should suffice. Especially since Create Bonfire is on the warlock list (and Flaming Sphere and Wall of Fire are on the Celestial list). Making it once per spell makes it really only useful for instantaneous single-target spells, of which the warlock does not get a lot that deal fire or radiant damage. Oh yeah, and your limited pact magic slots means this isn't even useful for leveled spells at all, and the only instantaneous fire/radiant cantrip warlocks get is GFB.

It's just so weirdly restrictive. I'm scratching my head trying to figure out what the purpose of this feature is supposed to be. It's just such a piddly amount of damage that it only really matters if you're able to get that bonus damage consistently (which you're not doing if you're using EB). The one thing it does do is make a non-EB warlock viable, especially since you get free Sacred Flame, but you'll lag behind an EB warlock with relevant invocations.

TL;DR, I'm salty because I wanted to build a Celestial warlock that uses Repelling Blast to push enemies into Create Bonfire, and feel like I'm getting nothing from this class feature.

How I'd fix this:
Make it once per turn, but only if you specifically want it to work with things like Create Bonfire, Flaming Sphere, or Wall of Fire.
Alternatively, change the damage bonus to be equal to your warlock level instead of your CHA mod. Now the damage boost is more significant, Sacred Flame can actually compete damage-wise with EB, and multiclass builds can't get the full benefit for cheese. Even for something like Create Bonfire, that one-time damage boost is enough that it would make a difference, possibly downing an enemy one turn sooner.

It's not a terrible ability, it's in line with what they errata'd the Dragon Sorc's 6th level ability to be and packs in a resistance. Making non EB Warlocks viable is a nice thing unto itself and it makes Guiding Bolt particularly potent on a Celestial Warlock.

Changing it to once per turn shouldn't be game breaking but it does make a couple of cantrips yield a disproportionate amount of damage if you can actually pull it off.

[MrCharlie]

Yeah, they errated every ability to only work on one roll per spell, specifically to nerf all these abilities so that you can't use them with multi-turn spells or with spells with multiple rays. Divine Soul is no different than the other casters, they were just printed after this errata was made.

[Benny89]

It's fine to boost cantrips or melee attacks.

For example Zealot Barbarians greatly benefits from them, adding another rider on their first attack. They already do 1d6 + half their level so adding another + level mixes very well with them.

Level 8 Zealot Barb with Aasimar is able to add in every turn 1d6 + 12 dmg. That is on average 15,5 dmg so equivalent of 4d6 sneak attack. And it keeps scalling.

On level 20 zealot Barb with Aaasimar with have first attack bonus of 1d6 + 30. That is huge dmg boost even on level 20.



On the other hand for example Arcane Cleric using Booming Blade can add +5 and then + Level to his attack if he is Aasimar.

Spamming for free every trun on level 11 a cantrip like Sacred Flame, that gets + 16 total bonus damage is really nice. That is 3d8 + 16 auto-hit (save though, but still, free range spell), which is average 29,5. 20 CHA Warlock at level 11 with Agonizing Blast is 31,5. So it's not bad for a cleric to boost his cantrip spam when needed.

It's situational boost but it can work in some builds.

I think it's still one of best racials. It's not Magic Resistance, but it's still very strong when used correctly.

[Dork_Forge]

It's fine to boost cantrips or melee attacks.

For example Zealot Barbarians greatly benefits from them, adding another rider on their first attack. They already do 1d6 + half their level so adding another + level mixes very well with them.

Level 8 Zealot Barb with Aasimar is able to add in every turn 1d6 + 12 dmg. That is on average 15,5 dmg so equivalent of 4d6 sneak attack. And it keeps scalling.

On level 20 zealot Barb with Aaasimar with have first attack bonus of 1d6 + 30. That is huge dmg boost even on level 20.



On the other hand for example Arcane Cleric using Booming Blade can add +5 and then + Level to his attack if he is Aasimar.

Spamming for free every trun on level 11 a cantrip like Sacred Flame, that gets + 16 total bonus damage is really nice. That is 3d8 + 16 auto-hit (save though, but still, free range spell), which is average 29,5. 20 CHA Warlock at level 11 with Agonizing Blast is 31,5. So it's not bad for a cleric to boost his cantrip spam when needed.

It's situational boost but it can work in some builds.

I think it's still one of best racials. It's not Magic Resistance, but it's still very strong when used correctly.

...huh, OP was I believe referring to 6th level Celestial Warlock ability, but nice catch that it's the exact same name as the Protector Aasimar racial, WotC really need to be more careful to name things uniquely (looking at you Lucky feat and Lucky racial trait).

[Benny89]

...huh, OP was I believe referring to 6th level Celestial Warlock ability, but nice catch that it's the exact same name as the Protector Aasimar racial, WotC really need to be more careful to name things uniquely (looking at you Lucky feat and Lucky racial trait).

Huh, nice catch with that catch :D. I honestly didn't think of that, but I never seen Celestial lock in game so I had no idea what his feature is called, but Aasimars are very popular.

Eh, WotC...

[Greywander]

I was indeed referring to the Celestial warlock feature. I had forgotten that the aasimar had a trait by the same name.


It's not a terrible ability, it's in line with what they errata'd the Dragon Sorc's 6th level ability to be and packs in a resistance. Making non EB Warlocks viable is a nice thing unto itself and it makes Guiding Bolt particularly potent on a Celestial Warlock.

Changing it to once per turn shouldn't be game breaking but it does make a couple of cantrips yield a disproportionate amount of damage if you can actually pull it off.
I wish they would stop nerfing things with errata. If they made a legitimate mistake, then I'd understand, but it seems pretty clear to me that many of these things were written correctly the first time, then nerfed in a misguided attempt to improve "balance". These things don't feel like they're fixing something that was broken, they feel like they're taking away our toys. I feel like a better approach would be to introduce a variant of the feature or an optional rule, or even just balance out a nerf with a corresponding buff somewhere else. Or add a way to restore the original behavior provided the player does a bit of work (feat, new race, new class/subclass, magic item, quest reward, etc.).

And yes, I'm still salty that the sling and hand crossbow require a second hand to reload. Not because I particularly wanted to play a shield+sling build, but because it defeats the purpose of making the weapons one-handed in the first place. Especially when there are historical examples of soldiers using shields and slings together. Fortunately, we at least have the artificer infusion that makes this possible again.

[Dork_Forge]

I was indeed referring to the Celestial warlock feature. I had forgotten that the aasimar had a trait by the same name.


I wish they would stop nerfing things with errata. If they made a legitimate mistake, then I'd understand, but it seems pretty clear to me that many of these things were written correctly the first time, then nerfed in a misguided attempt to improve "balance". These things don't feel like they're fixing something that was broken, they feel like they're taking away our toys. I feel like a better approach would be to introduce a variant of the feature or an optional rule, or even just balance out a nerf with a corresponding buff somewhere else. Or add a way to restore the original behavior provided the player does a bit of work (feat, new race, new class/subclass, magic item, quest reward, etc.).

And yes, I'm still salty that the sling and hand crossbow require a second hand to reload. Not because I particularly wanted to play a shield+sling build, but because it defeats the purpose of making the weapons one-handed in the first place. Especially when there are historical examples of soldiers using shields and slings together. Fortunately, we at least have the artificer infusion that makes this possible again.

I'm with you there in this instance, both the Dragon Sorc ability and the Celestial ability wouldn't be broken if they were allowed more than once per turn and would just make the subclasses more competitive with the rest.

Not sad about Healing Spirit getting the nerf though.

[Lunali]

Yeah, they errated every ability to only work on one roll per spell, specifically to nerf all these abilities so that you can't use them with multi-turn spells or with spells with multiple rays. Divine Soul is no different than the other casters, they were just printed after this errata was made.

Except there's a difference, most of them work on one roll per spell, allowing a significant boost for an AoE spell. This one is limited to a single roll and a single target, resulting in +5 damage or so per spell. Also, this is on the same class that gets agonizing blast, which applies to every damage roll for the spell.

[Neorealist]

Noticed that too with a celestial warlock I recently started playing. My theory is that it's clearly the intent of the author to reduce the power-level of the ability. I'm with you on not being sure why they felt that necessary; it appears to me like someone had a solution and went in search of a problem to apply it to.

Perhaps the fact that it comes 4 levels earlier than the similar class ability for wizards (empowered evocation) 'and' also provides a resistance meant that someone somewhere felt it should be more restrictive and just overshot the mark? Or perhaps it was intended to be a ribbon ability and it was felt it would have had too much utility without the additional verbiage.

[Greywander]

As far as the resistance goes, how often do PCs take radiant damage? This borders on a ribbon, something you can say you have because it fits the theme of the character but that you'll probably never actually use.

Comparing it to the Evoker's similar ability, Radiant Soul only applies to spells that deal radiant or fire damage. Granted, damaging fire spells are pretty common, but not necessarily on the warlock list. The Celestial patrons adds a few to their list, though.

I'm just baffled as to what this ability was intended to do. Warlocks only have a few spell slots, so "once per spell" is so negligible that it's hardly worth noting. This is especially true when the Celestial patron gives them such goodies as Flaming Sphere, Wall of Fire, and Flame Strike, all spells that would benefit from applying the bonus damage to more than one target, more than one damage roll (i.e. over several rounds), or both. As written, the bonus damage from Radiant Soul only becomes notably with a spell you can spam every round, which, because of limited spell slots, means a cantrip. This just leaves us with Sacred Flame, GFB, and Create Bonfire (which can be recast every round to get the bonus damage again).

The thing is, Sacred Flame with Radiant Soul still can't compete with EB. You're either going for a non-EB build (which is suboptimal, but frees up a lot of invocations), or you're casting EB and not benefiting from either the free Sacred Flame or Radiant Soul. GFB would actually work fine, but would benefit from adding the bonus damage to the second target. Create Bonfire also isn't terrible if you're spamming it every round like a tiny Fireball, but that's not how the spell is intended to be used, and it still prevents you from concentrating on a different spell (like, I don't know, Hex). If you can hit at least two enemies with each casting of Create Bonfire, it can compete with EB, but they literally have to be standing right next to each other.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that using this feature as intended seems to have a negligible effect, and the only way to actually make it useful (i.e. better than EB) requires you to jump through hoops and use spells not in their intended way. I'm not saying all abilities need to be strong, but they should at least make sense. An ability that gives a +1 bonus to damage rolls with hand axes on Thursdays while the moon is waning would just be dumb and pointless, and even when you do meet the requirements the bonus just isn't worth it. An ability that lets you throw any kind of axe would actually be more interesting, even if it's something you're not likely to use. You can bet that when you do need to throw that battleaxe, you'll actually be really excited that you happened to have an ability that let you do that.

If I wanted to make Radiant Soul interesting, instead of just making it stronger, I'd have it allow you to convert fire damage to radiant damage and vice versa, instead of adding bonus damage. Fighting a troll? Sacred Flame and Guiding Bolt can now stop its regeneration. Fighting devils? Radiant Wall of Fire, or radiant Flaming Sphere. Fighting a horde of mummies? "Oops All Fire Damage Flame Strike". An ability like this would go unused most of the time, but when it came up you'd be really glad to have it.

[Neorealist]

It might be useful against enemy clerics, paladins, other celestial warlocks, or some high-level angels? You are absolutely correct; 'radiant' isn't exactly the damage type of choice for most things a party of adventurers would interact with, but it is thematically appropriate for the class. Probably why they gave aasimar necrotic resistance as well; far more likely to impact a given challenge.

[Chronos]

If you're referring to the aasimar in the DMG, the one presented as an example for how to create races, that's explicitly why they get resistance to necrotic in addition to radiant: The race was based on tiefling, which also gets a resistance to an element, but players face radiant damage much less often than fire damage, so they need something more to make it an equally-useful trait.

[Tanarii]

I'm just baffled as to what this ability was intended to do. Warlocks only have a few spell slots, so "once per spell" is so negligible that it's hardly worth noting. This is especially true when the Celestial patron gives them such goodies as Flaming Sphere, Wall of Fire, and Flame Strike, all spells that would benefit from applying the bonus damage to more than one target, more than one damage roll (i.e. over several rounds), or both. As written, the bonus damage from Radiant Soul only becomes notably with a spell you can spam every round, which, because of limited spell slots, means a cantrip. This just leaves us with Sacred Flame, GFB, and Create Bonfire (which can be recast every round to get the bonus damage again).

To me, it's pretty clearly "Potent Cantrips" plus a little bit. So the primary point is precisely to be a Sacred Flame booster to make it an alternative to Eldritch Blast. Then it has some gravy added to that in case you happen to use other radiant or fire spells.

[Chaosmancer]

As far as the resistance goes, how often do PCs take radiant damage? This borders on a ribbon, something you can say you have because it fits the theme of the character but that you'll probably never actually use.

Comparing it to the Evoker's similar ability, Radiant Soul only applies to spells that deal radiant or fire damage. Granted, damaging fire spells are pretty common, but not necessarily on the warlock list. The Celestial patrons adds a few to their list, though.

I'm just baffled as to what this ability was intended to do. Warlocks only have a few spell slots, so "once per spell" is so negligible that it's hardly worth noting. This is especially true when the Celestial patron gives them such goodies as Flaming Sphere, Wall of Fire, and Flame Strike, all spells that would benefit from applying the bonus damage to more than one target, more than one damage roll (i.e. over several rounds), or both. As written, the bonus damage from Radiant Soul only becomes notably with a spell you can spam every round, which, because of limited spell slots, means a cantrip. This just leaves us with Sacred Flame, GFB, and Create Bonfire (which can be recast every round to get the bonus damage again).

The thing is, Sacred Flame with Radiant Soul still can't compete with EB. You're either going for a non-EB build (which is suboptimal, but frees up a lot of invocations), or you're casting EB and not benefiting from either the free Sacred Flame or Radiant Soul. GFB would actually work fine, but would benefit from adding the bonus damage to the second target. Create Bonfire also isn't terrible if you're spamming it every round like a tiny Fireball, but that's not how the spell is intended to be used, and it still prevents you from concentrating on a different spell (like, I don't know, Hex). If you can hit at least two enemies with each casting of Create Bonfire, it can compete with EB, but they literally have to be standing right next to each other.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that using this feature as intended seems to have a negligible effect, and the only way to actually make it useful (i.e. better than EB) requires you to jump through hoops and use spells not in their intended way. I'm not saying all abilities need to be strong, but they should at least make sense. An ability that gives a +1 bonus to damage rolls with hand axes on Thursdays while the moon is waning would just be dumb and pointless, and even when you do meet the requirements the bonus just isn't worth it. An ability that lets you throw any kind of axe would actually be more interesting, even if it's something you're not likely to use. You can bet that when you do need to throw that battleaxe, you'll actually be really excited that you happened to have an ability that let you do that.

If I wanted to make Radiant Soul interesting, instead of just making it stronger, I'd have it allow you to convert fire damage to radiant damage and vice versa, instead of adding bonus damage. Fighting a troll? Sacred Flame and Guiding Bolt can now stop its regeneration. Fighting devils? Radiant Wall of Fire, or radiant Flaming Sphere. Fighting a horde of mummies? "Oops All Fire Damage Flame Strike". An ability like this would go unused most of the time, but when it came up you'd be really glad to have it.



I had this discussion before and digging back around I found the list I had compiled. Warlocks naturally get a total of three spells that do Radiant damage. The lowest being Sickening Radiance, a 4th level spell. Then it is Wall of Light and Crown of Stars which is a 7th.

Celestial gives us Guiding Bolt and Flamestrike.

For Fire, they also only get 3 leveled spells, Hellish Rebuke, Elemental Bane and Investure of Fire. None of which are particularly compelling for a +4 damage boost.

Celestial does give us Flaming Sphere and Wall of Fire as well as Flame Strike (do you think it doubles the boost?)

So... there it is, every single spell above cantrip level that this ability can be used on.