Warblade Build Help

[ThelaGinjeet]

I’m hoping you guys can walk me through a Warblade build.

First, a little background. I’ve been playing a poorly optimized Charger Barbarian in an ongoing campaign set in Faerun\Damara for a few months now and the party is currently lvl 12. We’re in the midst of a big battle with a Necromancer and his army of undead and due to some major goofs, it looks like my guy is about to kick the bucket. Between you and me, I’m not too broken up about the idea and I’ve already talked with my DM about rolling up another character. I’ve been filling the role of front line single target damage dealer and I’d likely need to stay within that role or at least be a heavy hitter if possible, which brings me to you guys.

I’ve been doing some research into the Warblade class after getting a recommendation from some other forum users to take some levels in such for my Barb to diversify him a bit more, and I like what I’ve seen. Unfortunately I’m feeling a little undecided at the moment on what route to take.

On one hand, I loved the high power one hit kills available to my charger and the idea of a great axe wielding berserker bringing the heat, but I feel like I’m obligated to come up with a new concept that doesn’t rely so heavily on the same features as my last character, so I’m considering a spiked chain trip build, a crit-fish twf, and a bloodstorm blade. The rest of the party is made up of a sorcerer, a cleric, and a rogue/ranger.

Based on that party composition and the builds I mentioned, which one would you go with and could you give me a simple explanation of battlefield tactics you’d use? I admittedly not super familiar with 3.5 and I feel like I’m still learning the finer details, so any help offered would be appreciated.

[el minster]

maybe a bloodclaw master twf critfisher?

[Saintheart]

If you think ubercharging is boring, fully optimised critfishing isn't likely to float your boat either after the first few fights.

It depends on how hardcore and how much you want to just red-mist everything that comes into melee range, but really optimised critfishing requires access to 3.0 sources and ideally a ruling from your DM that Improved Critical and keen stack. Also understand that the approach is different: single-weapon critfishing isn't that much different to Power Attack and charging when you get down to it; two-weapon critfishing rests far more on getting more attacks per round than a demented octopus in order to offset the loss in damage per hand, or alternatively picking a decent array of rider effects that trigger on a critical hit. That may be more complexity than you're interested in. If you want to know how to critfish, consult my handbook. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?614347-The-Critical-Hit-Handbook)

[ThelaGinjeet]

No, I don’t think charging is boring at all, but I feel like I’ve shot myself in the foot on this Charger build because of less than ideal level placement, feat selection, etc, and in game, we’re in a big combat situation that seems to have us outmatched and my character is down enough hit points that it is likely to be a problem during this next session. I also made the mistake of raging at the top of the encounter and now I’m fatigued, so running/charging is off the table.


Since posting this, I chatted with my DM and he’s warned me about the reality that the other guys in the party aren’t particularly optimized and that I should avoid making something too broken. He also mentioned that a more defensive character might be the way to go as a tank of some sort, so I’ve got some things to consider.

[Gauntlet]

If you want to be more defensively minded, then a Chain tripper is a pretty solid option in that area, although at the high levels you're at there will be a reasonable number of enemies who simply can't be tripped reasonably, whether due to size or shape.

Crusaders also have a lot of good defensive tools, and generally lean a little more into the 'Tank' role than a Warblade (not to say that Warblades can't do it, though).

[ThelaGinjeet]

Ok, I'd love a critique of this build if you guys wouldn't mind. Please be gentle, it's a work in progress...

Current lvl 12, with intentions on going... WB6/BSB4/WB10 in order to get initiator level 18 for those lvl 9 maneuvers

Name: Urok Bloodstorm
Race: Half-Ogre
Alignment: Chaotic Good

Lvl 8 Warblade BAB +8/+3
Lvl 4 Bloodstorm Blade BAB +4
Total +12/7

Stats (28 Point Buy: 16, 12, 14, 15, 9, 8)
* Str: 24 [+7] (16 starting base, +6 race, +2 for level advancement)
* Dex: 10 [+0] (12, -2 race)
* Con: 16 [+3] (14 base, +2 race)
* Int: 14 [+2] (15 base, -2 race, +1 lvl advancement)
* Wis: 9 [-1]
* Cha: 6 [-2] (8 base, -2 race)


Class Specials (Warblade):
* Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves) - take Int bonus to reflex saves
* Weapon Aptitude - 1 hour to change weapon for a designated feat (ie. Weaoi
* Uncanny Dodge - retain dex bonus to AC if caught flat footed
* Battle Ardor (critical information) - Add Int bonus to confirm crits
* Improved Uncanny Dodge - Can’t be flanked
* Battle Cunning (Damage) - Gain Int bonus to damage rolls against flat-footed or flanked foes

Class Specials (Bloodstorm Blade):
* Returning Attacks - spend an iron heart to make thrown weapon return
* Throw Anything - No penalty for throwing any melee weapon you are proficient with (10’ range increment)
* Martial Throw - can initiate an iron heart strike with a thrown weapon against a single target
* Thunderous Throw - use swift action to treat ranged attack rolls as melee attacks (melee attack bonus to hit)
* Lightning Ricochet - immediately retrieve thrown weapon with a free action, enabling a full attack with thrown weapons (or mix of melee and thrown)

Skills (Points: 0/84) (max at lvl 12 is 15 ranks
* Class Skills
* Balance x8 (BSB prerequisites)
* Jump x15
* Concentration x15
* Tumble x15
* Intimidate x15
* Diplomacy x6
* Knowledge (History)
* Knowledge Local
* Climb
* Craft
* Swim
* Cross-Class Skills
* Listen x6
* Spot
Feats: x7 (1 bonus feat (lvl 5 WB), 1 bonus fighter feat (lvl 3 BSB), x5 feats for lvl 12 (lvl 1, 3, 6, 9, 12)
* Point Blank Shot (BSB requirement)
* Prerequisite: none
* +1 bonus to hit and damage with ranged weapons up to 30ft
* Improved Bull Rush
* Prerequisite: Power Attack, Str 13
* Bull rush without AoO, +4 opposed str check
* Power Attack
* Prerequisite: Str 13
* Subtract value from attack bonus up to BAB and swap for damage bonus
* Far Shot
* Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot
* Double range on thrown weapons
* Knock Back
* Prerequisites: Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Size Large
* Score a hit with power attack, make a free bull rush attempt applying power attack bonus to opposed strength roll (doubled with two handed weapon), no AoO, don’t move back with foe
* Combat Expertise
* Prerequisite: Int 13
* Take up to -5 on attack roll and add +5 to AC
* Exotic Weapon Proficiency
* Prerequisite: BAB +1, Str 13
* Make attack rolls with exotic weapons without penalty


Possible Upgrade Feats
* Improved Trip
* Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise
* +4 bonus to strength check on trip, if successful get immediate melee attack
* Leap Attack
* Prerequisite: Power Attack, Jump x8 ranks
* charge + jump (10’) = x2 Power Attack (x3 for two handed)
* Shock Trooper
* Prerequisite: Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, BAB +6
* Directed Bull Rush: move foe left or right on a successful bull rush
* Domino Rush: Bull rush foe into another foe, trip attempt both, no trip suffered to self if failed
* Heedless Charge: Assign power attack penalty to AC, must involve attack at end of charge
* Knock Down
* Prerequisites: BAB +2, Improved Trip, Str 15
* Whenever you deal 10 damage or more in melee, make a trip attack as a free action
* Weapon Focus
* +1 bonus on attack rolls w/selected weapon
* BAB +1, Proficiency with selected weapon
* Weapon Specialization



Maneuvers

Disciplines
* Diamond Mind
* Iron Heart
* Tiger Claw

At 12th lvl (6 WB, 4 BSB, 2 WB) I’ll have access to 5th level maneuvers
* Maneuvers Known: 7
* Maneuvers Readied: 4
* Stances Known: 2

(Must know one iron heart strike and one iron heart stance for Bloodstorm Blade PrC)

Diamond Mind
* Moment of Perfect Mind (counter) - use Concentration instead of Will check
* No Prerequisites
* Emerald Razor - Make a single melee attack that is treated as a touch attack
* One Diamond Mind Maneuver

Iron Heart
* Wall of Blades - When attacked via melee/ranged, spend maneuver to counter attack with a melee attack and use either AC or Attack roll as effective AC to defend
* No Prerequisites
* Iron Heart Surge - Use maneuver to end one spell, effect, or condition immediately. Also get +2 to attack until end of next turn
* One Iron Heart Maneuver

Tiger Claw
* Hunter’s Sense (stance) - Gain Scent Tracking (Survival [Wis] roll DC 10 for fresh train, increases or decreases based on variables)
* Coming within 5 feet of target pinpoints location
* Death From Above (strike): DC 20 Jump Check, single melee attack on success, +4d6 damage and land in any adjacent square to the target within 20’
* Prerequisite: One Tiger Claw Maneuver
* Pouncing Charge (strike) - full attack at the end of a charge (full bonus to charge attack for each attack)
* Prerequisite: Two Tiger Claw Maneuvers
* Dancing Mongoose (boost) - Make one additional attack with each weapon you wield with highest attack bonus at same foe
* Two Tiger Claw Maneuvers

Items: (Starting gold: 66K)
* Bracers of Extended Range
* Animated Shield
* Mammoth as a Mount (17K)
* Goliath Greathammer

The more I think about these maneuvers, the more I'm not into it. They certainly seem like good selections for a charger, but as I mentioned earlier, I want to get away from charging and do more ranged attacks hence the BSB levels. Can you guys make a recommendation for maneuvers that would allow my ranged attacks to shine and don't depend on battlefield movement? I'm also open to advice on the feats I've selected because I have a feeling I chose poorly on some of those. I'm not married to that Goliath Greathammer as my main weapon, and I had considered dropping the EWP feat and taking something more useful and just using a Large Sized Greatsword instead since the damage output is the same at large size and the only difference is a x3 Crit vs a X4 Crit. Any recommendations for weapon enhancements that benefit ranged attacks would also be appreciated.

[Maat Mons]

That build actually somewhat resembles something I was considering suggesting. Except I was going to suggest some Fighter levels for the Dungeoncrasher ACF, which lets you deal substantial damage when you bull rush people into walls. But, if you're deliberately eschewing offense....

Oh, and I was going to suggest the Rampaging Bull Rush as your means of rendering enemies prone. It's not as good as Knock Back, but that feat is honestly a little OP. Though, I could see if you'd want to avoid making another character with Rage, to avoid being too similar to your last character.

Are you buying off the level adjustment of half-ogre?

[ThelaGinjeet]

That build actually somewhat resembles something I was considering suggesting. Except I was going to suggest some Fighter levels for the Dungeoncrasher ACF, which lets you deal substantial damage when you bull rush people into walls. But, if you're deliberately eschewing offense....

Oh, and I was going to suggest the Rampaging Bull Rush as your means of rendering enemies prone. It's not as good as Knock Back, but that feat is honestly a little OP. Though, I could see if you'd want to avoid making another character with Rage, to avoid being too similar to your last character.

Are you buying off the level adjustment of half-ogre?

I am, but since we're starting at level 12, my DM basically said it would be all sorted by the time we find the character in his career.

[nedz]

I want to get away from charging and do more ranged attacks hence the BSB levels. Can you guys make a recommendation for manoeuvres that would allow my ranged attacks to shine and don't depend on battlefield movement?

Manoeuvres are mainly melee which is ToBs thing. You might want to consider a Swordsage dip which will get you some more utility - there are some interesting level 1-3 manoeuvres.

[ThelaGinjeet]

I actually ended up going an even different route. Here's the updated info for anyone interested:


Lvl 5 Warblade BAB +5
Lvl 4 Bloodstorm Blade BAB +4
Lvl 3 Master Thrower BAB +3

Total +12/+7/+2

Stats (28 Point Buy: 16, 12, 14, 14, 10, 8)
* Str: 23 [+6] (16 starting base, +4 race, +3 lvl advancement)
* Dex: 14 [+2]
* Con: 14 [+2]
* Int: 8 [-1 ] (10, -2 race)
* Wis: 10 [0] (12, -2 race)
* Cha: 6 [-2] (8 base, -2 race)
Fort Save: +9
Ref Save: +6
Will Save: +3

Class Specials (Warblade)
* Battle Clarity (Reflex Saves) - take Int bonus to reflex saves
* Weapon Aptitude - 1 hour to change weapon for a designated feat
* Uncanny Dodge - retain dex bonus to AC if caught flat footed
* Battle Ardor (critical information) - Add Int bonus to confirm crits

Class Specials (Bloodstorm Blade)
* Returning Attacks - spend an iron heart to make thrown weapon return
* Throw Anything - No penalty for throwing any melee weapon you are proficient with (10’ range increment)
* Martial Throw - can initiate an iron heart strike with a thrown weapon against a single target
* Thunderous Throw - use swift action to treat ranged attack rolls as melee attacks (melee attack bonus to hit)
* Lightning Ricochet - immediately retrieve thrown weapon with a free action, enabling a full attack with thrown weapons (or mix of melee and thrown)

Class Specials (Master Thrower)
* Quick Draw - draw a weapon as a free action, draw a hidden weapon as a move action, throw weapon at full rate of attack
* Thrown Weapon Trick (Trip Shot): With successful attack, +4 Dex Check vs foe’s Dex/Str (higher)
* Evasion: Successful Reflex Throw takes no damage (as opposed to half)
* Thrown Weapon Trick (Deadeye Shot): increases crits by 1 (ex. x 3 becomes x 4)

Feats
* Point Blank Shot (BSB requirement): +1 bonus to hit and damage with ranged weapons up to 30ft
* Precise Shot: Shoot/Throw ranged weapons into melee without -4 penalty
* Weapon Focus: +1 attack rolls on chosen weapon type
* Far Shot: Double Range on Thrown Weapons
* Power Attack: Swap attack bonus for damage bonus (up to BAB). Get double returns on two-handed attack
* Improved Bull Rush: Bull rush without AoO, +4 opposed str check
* Improved Initiative: +4 to initiative checks

Skills (starting points 16, 4 per level afterwards)
* Balance x8 (BSB prereq) (BSB, WB)
* Climb (WB, MT)
* Concentration x15 (WB, BSB, MT)
* Craft (BSB, WB, MT)
* Diplomacy (WB)
* Intimidate x11 (WB, BSB)
* Jump x8 (WB, BSB, MT)
* Knowledge (History) (WB)
* Knowledge (Local) (WB)
* Martial Lore (WB, BSB)
* Swim (WB)
* Tumble x11 (WB, BSB, MT)
* Spot x9 (BSB)
* Bluff (MT)
* Perform (MT)
* Profession (MT)
* Sleight of Hand (MT)
* Use Rope (MT)

Levels
1. Warblade - 16pts (Concentration, Intimidate, Jump, Tumble all x4)
2. Warblade - 4pts (Balance x4)
3. Warblade - 4pts (Tumble x2, Concentration x2)
4. Warblade - 4pts (Concentration x1, Tumble x1, Jump x2)
5. Warblade - 4pts (Balance x4)
6. Bloodstorm Blade - 4pts (Concentration x2, Intimidate x2 )
7. Bloodstorm Blade - 4pts (Spot x4)
8. Bloodstorm Blade - 4pts (Spot x3, Concentration x1)
9. Bloodstorm Blade - 4pts (Concentration x2, Spot x2)
10. Master Thrower - 4pts (Concentration x1, Intimidate x1, Jump x2)
11. Master Thrower - 4pts (Tumble x4)
12. Master Thrower - 4pts (Concentration x2, Intimidate x2)

Maneuvers

Levels
1. 3 Maneuvers known 1 Stance known
* Maneuvers: Moment of Perfect Mind, Douse The Flames, Leading The Attack
* Stance: Punishing Stance
2. 4 maneuvers known, 1 stance known
* Maneuvers: Moment of Perfect Mind, Douse The Flames, Leading The Attack, Wall of Blades
* Stance: Punishing Stance
3. 5 maneuvers known, 1 stance known
* Maneuvers: Moment of Perfect Mind, Douse The Flames, Leading The Attack, Wall of Blades, Emerald Razor
* Stance: Punishing Stance
4. 5 maneuvers known, 2 stances known (can replace known maneuver with new one)
* Maneuvers: Moment of Perfect Mind, Disarming Strike (swapped out Douse The Flames), Leading The Attack, Wall of Blades, Emerald Razor
* Stances: Punishing Stance, Bolstering Voice
5. 6 maneuvers known, 2 stances known
* Maneuvers: Moment of Perfect Mind, Disarming Strike, Leading The Attack, Wall of Blades, Emerald Razor, Iron Heart Surge
* Stances: Punishing Stance, Bolstering Voice


I'm a little on the fence about taking improved bull rush unless I'm sure about grabbing Shock Trooper. It's difficult to deny that sweet sweet AC donk with heedless charged the fact that I should be able to charge and throw my weapon as a melee attack is very appealing.

From here, I need to decide on starting gear. At level 12 I have 66K gold to work with and I'm pretty sure my DM will be cool with most officially released gear/magic items. I actually haven't even committed to a weapon yet. I was really wishing there was a D&D 3.5 equivalent of pathfinder's Two Handed Thrower feat so I could throw a great sword as a full round action, but alas...

[Saintheart]

I was really wishing there was a D&D 3.5 equivalent of pathfinder's Two Handed Thrower feat so I could throw a great sword as a full round action, but alas...

If you're only looking to throw the greatsword once as a full round action, then 3.5 allows you to do that by default. Throwing two-handed weapons is a full round action. And if you look more carefully at Thunderous Throw from Bloodstorm Blade, you'll find it does most of what Two Handed Thrower from Pathfinder does anyway.

If you can somehow finagle Large size, maybe look at Hulking Hurler - it has a few good tricks for throwing two-handed.