3.5: Making characters with no normal levels.

[Jackaccount]

This started as an attempt to create a character with 19 total prestige class levels, but that turned out to require an inordinate amount of cheese. However during my search for early entry prestige classes I stumbled across two things, substitution levels and racial paragons. Using these two things it's possible to get up to level 5 without taking any standard levels, after which it's much easier to take a prestige class. Why would you do this? No idea. Post your creations down below and enjoy.

My build: the dry-der

Race: deepwyrm half drow

Levels (in order): 1 dragonblood cleric, 3 aberrant paragon, 5 walker in the waste, 6 impure prince, 5 walker in the wastes.

Feats: heat endurance, symbiont mastery, bane of infidels, extra favored enemy (aberration), verminfriend, unspeakable vow, vow of the spider queen.

Rationale: after I came up with the basic template of substitution level, racial paragon, prestige classes I tried to add some templates. Of the prestige classes I found that offer templates, Walker in the Waste had the highest level adjustment (others were dragon discipline and dragon devotee) so I went with that. You'll need some homebrew to take the right domains and still take aberrant paragon, but I'm sure you can think up a daelkyr associated with the dessicating wastes. I took impure prince because I had 6 levels left and it was the only 6 level prestige class I could qualify for, not that there were many to begin with. Finally I took the last three feats because they offer you a template in a roundabout way, failing your vow turns you into a drider, I couldn't find any other feats that even came close to offering a template.

[timeeater14]

Can’t you just build Paladin 9/Grey Guard 10, then fall to Evil and switch all your Paladin levels for Blackguard levels? That leaves you as a Grey Guard 10/Blackguard 10.

[Jackaccount]

Can’t you just build Paladin 9/Grey Guard 10, then fall to Evil and switch all your Paladin levels for Blackguard levels? That leaves you as a Grey Guard 10/Blackguard 10.

That would definitely be interesting and I don't see any reason it wouldn't work. But wouldn't you lose your class abilities from the grey guard levels? Although you would get to keep all the fancy blackguard abilities so it should cancel out. Maybe you could make an argument for taking the despot variant class and never changing alignment. Edit: Nope, grey guard requires that you be lawful good and have lay on hands, that disqualifies most of the variant classes. In the interest of needless complexity you could be a gnome, getting access to the shadow cloak knight substitutions and dire badger mounts.

[Falontani]

Changeling
1) Martial Changeling Rogue 1: Able Learner, Combat Expertise
2) Half Elf Paragon 1: Racial Emulation
3 Half Orc Paragon 1: Improved Weapon Familiarity
4) Half Orc Paragon 2
5) Human Paragon 1
6) Chameleon 1: Combat Casting
7) Chameleon 2: variable feat
8) Half Elf Paragon 2 (chameleon 3 casting)
9) Human Paragon 2: Aberrant Blood (Flexible Limbs), Inhuman Reach (chameleon 4 casting)
10) Human Paragon 3: +2 Intelligence (chameleon 5 casting)
11) Elf Combat Wizard 1: Improved Trip
12) Abjurant Champion 1: Knockdown (chameleon 6)
13) Abjurant Champion 2 (chameleon 7)
14) Abjurant Champion 3 (chameleon 8)
15) Abjurant Champion 4: Craft Wondrous Items (chameleon 9)
16) Abjurant Champion 5 (chameleon 10)
17) Maester 1 (qualify using chameleon feat, then use bonus feat to self qualify): Craft Arms and Armor
18) Chameleon 3: Extended Reach
19) Chameleon 4
20) Chameleon 5

Cl: 13, access to all arcane and divine spells up to 6th level, bab 13, crafting, and great at tripping using the Drow Spiked Chain.

[Anthrowhale]

Using the Rebuild rules in PHII, you can remove all base classes.

[Zaq]

Oh, racial sub classes count, eh?

I'ma just leave this right here. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=20312808&postcount=127)

[tiercel]

Can’t you just build Paladin 9/Grey Guard 10, then fall to Evil and switch all your Paladin levels for Blackguard levels? That leaves you as a Grey Guard 10/Blackguard 10.

Similarly, you could start with 9 levels of a Cleric worshipping any god, renounce your god (becoming an ex-cleric of that god), take one level of Defiant (Planar Handbook), and trade all your ex-cleric levels for Defiant levels, and now you’re just a Defiant 10.

Granted, I’m not sure why, mechanically, you’d want to, or where you’d take the build at that point — I suppose you could always take Legacy Champion (Weapons of Legacy) to advance your Defiant “class levels” abilities 8/10 while continuing your “I give up a lot to get some random oddball abilities of varying utility” theme, such as it is.

If your WoL is anti-divine flavored, I could imagine this making for an interesting-in-principle character against divine-magic-heavy foes, but you’d probably want something useful to do against, oh, any other kind of enemy.

[Falontani]

Wardorged Fighter 1: Adamantine Body, Sacred Vow, f1 iron Will, f2 lightning reflexes
Warforged Fighter 2
Cleric 1: Cold Iron Tracery
Cleric 2
Cleric 3
Cleric 4: great fortitude
Cleric 5
Cleric 6
Defiant 7: Vow of Poverty
Defiant 8: Nymph's Kiss
Defiant 9
Defiant 10: Silver Tracery, Nimbus of Light
Forsaker 1
Forsaker 2: Stigmata
Forsaker 3: Second Slam
Forsaker 4: Touch of Golden Ice
Forsaker 5
Forsaker 6: Shocking Fist, Gift of Discernment
Forsaker 7
Forsaker 8

43 sr vs divine spells, good ac without magic, pretty good saves, ignore most dr types, 17 bab. Go cloistered cleric for better skills (and start with it) and other than no flight your pretty good! Still not great

[Blue Jay]

Changeling
1) Martial Changeling Rogue 1: Able Learner, Combat Expertise
2) Half Elf Paragon 1: Racial Emulation
3 Half Orc Paragon 1: Improved Weapon Familiarity
4) Half Orc Paragon 2
5) Human Paragon 1
6) Chameleon 1: Combat Casting
7) Chameleon 2: variable feat
8) Half Elf Paragon 2 (chameleon 3 casting)
9) Human Paragon 2: Aberrant Blood (Flexible Limbs), Inhuman Reach (chameleon 4 casting)
10) Human Paragon 3: +2 Intelligence (chameleon 5 casting)
11) Elf Combat Wizard 1: Improved Trip
12) Abjurant Champion 1: Knockdown (chameleon 6)
13) Abjurant Champion 2 (chameleon 7)
14) Abjurant Champion 3 (chameleon 8)
15) Abjurant Champion 4: Craft Wondrous Items (chameleon 9)
16) Abjurant Champion 5 (chameleon 10)
17) Maester 1 (qualify using chameleon feat, then use bonus feat to self qualify): Craft Arms and Armor
18) Chameleon 3: Extended Reach
19) Chameleon 4
20) Chameleon 5

Cl: 13, access to all arcane and divine spells up to 6th level, bab 13, crafting, and great at tripping using the Drow Spiked Chain.

I have a couple questions about this build:
I'm a bit leery of changelings qualifying for both half-elf and half-orc at the same time. The text in UA addresses shapechanging and disallows paragon multiclassing via that route. It does say that taking levels in your "original race" prevents you from taking paragon levels for other races, so are you relying on the fact that you haven't technically taken paragon levels in your original race?
Are you relying on Improved Weapon Familiarity to give you proficiency in the drow scorpion chain? I don't think that works, does it?
I thought I remembered seeing a line somewhere that says changelings can count as doppelgangers for prereqs and stuff, but I can't seem to find it. It doesn't really matter for your build, but do you know where that is?

[Falontani]

I have a couple questions about this build:
I'm a bit leery of changelings qualifying for both half-elf and half-orc at the same time. The text in UA addresses shapechanging and disallows paragon multiclassing via that route. It does say that taking levels in your "original race" prevents you from taking paragon levels for other races, so are you relying on the fact that you haven't technically taken paragon levels in your original race?
Are you relying on Improved Weapon Familiarity to give you proficiency in the drow scorpion chain? I don't think that works, does it?
I thought I remembered seeing a line somewhere that says changelings can count as doppelgangers for prereqs and stuff, but I can't seem to find it. It doesn't really matter for your build, but do you know where that is?


The big crutch and answer to your question is the feat racial emulation.
Improved Weapon Familiarity changes an exotic weapon with a race's name to martial for that race, so while we are a drow, we get drow weaponry.
Iirc it is in races of Destiny, idr which page

[Curelomosaurus]

Unearthed Arcana's bloodlines might also be of interest here, along with the savage progressions on web articles. You could go something like Drow savage progression 2/Bloodline 1/Drow Paragon 2/Bloodline +1 (2)/Drow paragon +1 (3)/Werewolf savage progression 2/Bloodline +1 (3)/Werewolf savage progression +3 (5)/Ghost savage progression 5 for a build with no standard levels or PrCs. It wouldn't be anywhere near optimal, but it's possible.

[RSGA]

The big crutch and answer to your question is the feat racial emulation.
Improved Weapon Familiarity changes an exotic weapon with a race's name to martial for that race, so while we are a drow, we get drow weaponry.
Iirc it is in races of Destiny, idr which page
But since feats are the last step and choosing a class (that you qualify for in the case of a PRC and semi-PRCs like the Paragons) wouldn't you have to have a flaw or other way of getting an extra feat so that you can start second level counting as half-elven to take Half-Elf Paragon?

[Blue Jay]

The big crutch and answer to your question is the feat racial emulation.

Well, the hang-up is here:

"It's possible for a powerful magic effect such as shapechange, reincarnate, or wish to change a character's race. If a character has already taken racial paragon levels in his original race, he can never become a paragon of another race."

SRD: Racial Paragon Classes (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm)
So basically, once you've taken paragon levels for one race, you're no longer eligible to take paragon levels for a second race, even if you technically qualify for it. Half-Elf and Half-Orc Paragons grant a specific exception that lets you multiclass into Human Paragon; but you can't multiclass into any other paragons.

You have a little wiggle room around the phrase "original race," though. By one interpretation, your original race is changeling, so you haven't taken any paragon levels in your "original race," and thus you don't trigger the clause about ineligibility for a second paragon race. But in context, it's pretty clear that "original race" should be taken to mean whatever race you've already taken paragon levels for.


Improved Weapon Familiarity changes an exotic weapon with a race's name to martial for that race, so while we are a drow, we get drow weaponry.

Oh, I see. It's hard to keep track of all the different things shapeshifters can do. :smallbiggrin:

[Falontani]

Well, the hang-up is here:

So basically, once you've taken paragon levels for one race, you're no longer eligible to take paragon levels for a second race, even if you technically qualify for it. Half-Elf and Half-Orc Paragons grant a specific exception that lets you multiclass into Human Paragon; but you can't multiclass into any other paragons.

You have a little wiggle room around the phrase "original race," though. By one interpretation, your original race is changeling, so you haven't taken any paragon levels in your "original race," and thus you don't trigger the clause about ineligibility for a second paragon race. But in context, it's pretty clear that "original race" should be taken to mean whatever race you've already taken paragon levels for.



Oh, I see. It's hard to keep track of all the different things shapeshifters can do. :smallbiggrin:

Interesting; no one had brought it up like that before to me, maybe not; but easy change would be to take Dwarven Fighter 1 and Kobold or Shifter Ranger 1 instead of Half Orc Paragon 2, just sad to lose that bonus to Intimidate