PDA

View Full Version : Lady's Gambit: Crazy or Worth it



cupkeyk
2007-10-29, 04:56 PM
In Dragon 317, there is a feat called Lady's Gambit, the prerequisites of which are +6 BAB, Iron Will and Power Attack. It lets you reduce up your BAB in hit points by increments of two, to gain +1 to hit and damage for every two hit points lost. The feat can be used once a round. It looks that some means of damage reduction can prevent the damage too.

My friend is playing a knight with the current feats:

1 Power Attack
1 Racial Bonus: Cleave
2 Knight Bonus: Mounted Combat
3 Great Cleave
5 Knight Bonus: Ride By Attack
6 Spirited Charge
9 Dragon Steed
10 Knight Bonus: Iron Will???
12 Lady's Gambit???

Basically he wants to know if the feat is good enough to spend his tenth level knight bonus feat AND his twelfth level feat on. He doesn't want shock trooper, unconvinced by the possibility his AC can keep him in the fight than totally dumping it for massive damage. Lady's Gambit lets his hit more often and for harder for a probability that baddies won't hit him vis-a-vis shocktrooper whereby the foes almost always only miss on a natural 1. By the way the feat is phrased, damage reduction of some sort will prevent some of the damage from Lady's Gambit for returns to both to hit and damage. And like PA, the bonus to damage is multiplied by spirited charge since it is not a variable.

Lady's Gambit vs. Shocktrooper: which feat is CRAZIER!!!??

Point a: Improved bull rush is NOT on the Knight's Bonus Feat List but Iron Will is.

Point b: His other option is getting Endurance at 10 and Steadfast determination at 12, but his will saves aren't that bad at all anyway.

BardicDuelist
2007-10-29, 05:06 PM
Does he have damage reduction? If so, go with that Lady's Gambit. If he doesn't, or can't get it easily, then the choice is far more difficult.

cupkeyk
2007-10-29, 05:11 PM
He has Adamantine Full Plate, so he gets 3/-. Not a lot. He is also looking for some means of fast healing.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-29, 05:15 PM
He has Adamantine Full Plate, so he gets 3/-. Not a lot. He is also looking for some means of fast healing.

One-level Dragon Shaman dip, for the Vitality aura might do you just fine.

cupkeyk
2007-10-29, 05:43 PM
And it fits in with Dragon Steed. Hmmn.

Catch
2007-10-29, 05:56 PM
A dip into Crusader would also work. Snag the Martial Spirit stance and Crusader's Strike, the rest is up to you. That way, you'd gain 2 HP for every successful attack you make, and Crusader's Strike is a free 1d6+1/level HP whenever you think you need a top-off. What's more is you'll have a delayed damage pool, albeit a small one, which can be used for Furious Counterstrike.

Come to think of it, Lady's Gambit has great synergy with the Crusader in that you can fill your own Steely Resolve pool and heal the damage you do to yourself. Burn 10 HP to get +2 to hit and damage and because of the delayed damage pool, you'd get another +2, and then next turn you can heal yourself with a Devoted Spirit strike. At 20th, a Crusader with Lady's Gambit could give herself +31 to hit and damage at the cost of 30 HP, and by then she'd have Immortal Fortitude and Strike of Righteous Vitality to make up for it. Makes me want to try it, actually.

Fax Celestis
2007-10-30, 05:39 PM
A dip into Crusader would also work. Snag the Martial Spirit stance and Crusader's Strike, the rest is up to you. That way, you'd gain 2 HP for every successful attack you make, and Crusader's Strike is a free 1d6+1/level HP whenever you think you need a top-off. What's more is you'll have a delayed damage pool, albeit a small one, which can be used for Furious Counterstrike.

Come to think of it, Lady's Gambit has great synergy with the Crusader in that you can fill your own Steely Resolve pool and heal the damage you do to yourself. Burn 10 HP to get +2 to hit and damage and because of the delayed damage pool, you'd get another +2, and then next turn you can heal yourself with a Devoted Spirit strike. At 20th, a Crusader with Lady's Gambit could give herself +31 to hit and damage at the cost of 30 HP, and by then she'd have Immortal Fortitude and Strike of Righteous Vitality to make up for it. Makes me want to try it, actually.
That is great synergy.

cupkeyk
2007-10-30, 06:10 PM
That is great synergy.

And since PA is a prerequisite, the crusader can dump his entire bab for damage and still net +11 to hit AND +71 damage with a two handed weapon before any other modifiers.

TimeWizard
2007-10-30, 08:38 PM
So the optimal alphabet is now Archivest, Artificier, Beguiler, Cleric, Crusader, Druid. I'll tell the boys down in print works

BardicDuelist
2007-10-30, 09:40 PM
I love this feat, but what page is it on in Dragon #317? I can't find it.

The VP
2007-10-30, 10:20 PM
I love this feat, but what page is it on in Dragon #317? I can't find it.

It's on page 82, in the Holy Strategists of the Red Knight article.

Catch
2007-10-30, 10:30 PM
And since PA is a prerequisite, the crusader can dump his entire bab for damage and still net +11 to hit AND +71 damage with a two handed weapon before any other modifiers.

Well, my math was a little off. Lady's Gambit allows you to burn HP equal to your BAB, so a 20th level Crusader would only be able to sacrifice 20 HP in a round to gain a total of +14 to hit and damage. It's still nothing to sneeze at, especially with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon. Say you Power Attack for -10, that's still +4 to hit and +34 to damage. You lose 20 HP, sure, but with a Crusader's / Revitalizing Strike, you're getting 3d6+20 back.

The Lady's Gambit / Crusader synergy also shines is in the small increments, though. With the Martial Spirit stance, a Crusader can sacrifice 2 HP to gain +1 to hit and damage, and then another from Furious Counterstrike for another +1, and then heal that damage when she attacks for a net HP loss of 0. This only gets better with level. Adding a second iterative attack at 6th level, a Crusader can gain a total of +3 to hit and damage while still keeping the same HP loss of 0. By the time she gets her fourth iterative attack, the Crusader can have +5 to hit and damage with all her attacks without losing any HP, assuming they all hit.

All in all, it's a very nice combo. Your normal attacks can hit consistently harder and you also have free clout when you need it. Combine that with Power Attack, maybe Leap Attack and a Vicious weapon enchant and you have a self-sacrificing tank with real staying power.

Darrin
2007-10-30, 10:32 PM
I love this feat, but what page is it on in Dragon #317? I can't find it.

Page 82, in the article "Holy Strategists of the Red Knight" by Travis Stout.

And it allows you to sacrifice 1 hp up to a maximum equal to your character level, not BAB (which is interesting... works just as well even if you don't have full BAB). For every 2 HP sacrificed, you gain +1 attack and +1 damage for 1 round.

I'm not entirely sure DR would work here. The text says "taking them from your current hit point total as if you had lost them to damage". Mechanically, it sounds like the damage bypasses DR, maybe even the Crusader's damage pool... the wording doesn't say "apply the damage", it says reduce your current HP by X, bonus = X/2. If (X - DR) = 0, zero divided by 2 still equals zero.

Catch
2007-10-30, 10:37 PM
I'm not entirely sure DR would work here. The text says "taking them from your current hit point total as if you had lost them to damage". Mechanically, it sounds like the damage bypasses DR, maybe even the Crusader's damage pool... the wording doesn't say "apply the damage", it says reduce your current HP by X, bonus = X/2. If (X - DR) = 0, zero divided by 2 still equals zero.

It does say "as if you lost them to damage" though, so I would assume that means that effects keyed to taking damage apply.

Damage Reduction and the Crusader's Steely Resolve specifically deal with damage, so yes. If it were just hit point loss, then no, it would bypass both DR and the delayed damage pool.

Darrin
2007-10-30, 10:59 PM
It does say "as if you lost them to damage" though, so I would assume that means that effects keyed to taking damage apply.


However, it refers to damage only in the past tense, implying that it was damage that exceeded or bypassed DR and/or Steely Resolve. And even then, I still see an argument where if DR reduces your sacrificed HP to zero, you get no bonus.

Still, pairing this up with Crusader's Strike or another Devoted Spirit stance/maneuver that allows you to attack and heal in the same action is still a pretty impressive combo. Fast healing or Regeneration would also be nice to throw in there.

GeneralTacticus
2007-10-30, 11:15 PM
Well, my math was a little off. Lady's Gambit allows you to burn HP equal to your BAB, so a 20th level Crusader would only be able to sacrifice 20 HP in a round to gain a total of +14 to hit and damage. It's still nothing to sneeze at, especially with Power Attack and a two-handed weapon. Say you Power Attack for -10, that's still +4 to hit and +34 to damage. You lose 20 HP, sure, but with a Crusader's / Revitalizing Strike, you're getting 3d6+20 back.

The Lady's Gambit / Crusader synergy also shines is in the small increments, though. With the Martial Spirit stance, a Crusader can sacrifice 2 HP to gain +1 to hit and damage, and then another from Furious Counterstrike for another +1, and then heal that damage when she attacks for a net HP loss of 0. This only gets better with level. Adding a second iterative attack at 6th level, a Crusader can gain a total of +3 to hit and damage while still keeping the same HP loss of 0. By the time she gets her fourth iterative attack, the Crusader can have +5 to hit and damage with all her attacks without losing any HP, assuming they all hit.

All in all, it's a very nice combo. Your normal attacks can hit consistently harder and you also have free clout when you need it. Combine that with Power Attack, maybe Leap Attack and a Vicious weapon enchant and you have a self-sacrificing tank with real staying power.

And, to make this even nastier, take the feat Stone Power. Whenever you use a standard or full-round action to attack, or a Stone Dragon strike, take up to a -5 penalty on your attack roll in exchange for double that number of temporary hit points. With a Crusader, you can essentially get +2 to hit and +7 to damage for free - take 10 points of damage into Steely Resolve in exchange for +5 to hit and +5 to damage, and an additional +2 to hit and damage from Furious Counterstrike. Then take a -5 from Stone Power to soak up all the delayed damage leaving you with no negative consequences at all.

Admittedly, you can't use this with a strike from Devoted Spirit or White Raven, but really, who cares? In particular, as Catch pointed out above, using Martial Spirit (and later Aura of Triumph, if you're Good-aligned) with a full attack action lets you take even more damage without long-term impact, with effects that synergise very nicely.

Armar
2007-10-31, 12:25 AM
Well, I would think that DR would not work with the Lady's Gambit, since it says in DR's describtion that "A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks," and damage caused by Lady's Gambit is not from either source.

That said, the Lady's Gambit & Crusader synergy is great.

Galahad
2007-10-31, 02:15 AM
*Edit* As Kaelik points out, the topic of my post had already been covered. Thats what i get for tabbing too many threads and not refreshing them before posting.

Kaelik
2007-10-31, 02:54 AM
Interesting.

Has anyone thought of how this interacts with the Stone Power feat from the Tome of Battle? For those of you who dont have it, it allows you to take an attack penalty of up to -5 (BAB allowing) to gain temporary HP equal to double the penalty until the beginning of your next turn.

So, you could use Stone Power at max, for a -5 to hit and +10 HP, then this Lady's Gambit (10 damage to self for a +5 hit and damage, negating two effects of SP) to basically give yourself a free +5 to damage, cost of taking the feets themselves excluded.

Im sure this is breakable somehow.

That feat was already suggested two posts above you.

And no it isn't breakable because +5 Damage for 2 Feats (More when you count the Pre-reqs) is not at all broken, and in fact quite underpowered. The real advantage to the Lady's Gambit Feat is the same one as Power Attack, scalability. Which of course means that Stone Power is only going to be reducing the damage, not negating it at higher levels of usefulness.

Person_Man
2007-10-31, 11:59 AM
DR doesn't work on Lady's Gambit. It requires that you sacrifice hit points, which is different from taking damage.

Duke of URL
2007-10-31, 12:05 PM
One-level Dragon Shaman dip, for the Vitality aura might do you just fine.

The Vitality aura only applies if you're under 50% max HP, though.

cupkeyk
2007-10-31, 12:33 PM
DR doesn't work on Lady's Gambit. It requires that you sacrifice hit points, which is different from taking damage.

Oh well, Fast Healing then. How does one get that in the easiest manner without taking a massive LA hit?

Combat Focus + Combat Vigor, another Combat Form Feat.

Darrin
2007-10-31, 12:46 PM
DR doesn't work on Lady's Gambit. It requires that you sacrifice hit points, which is different from taking damage.

Exactly what I was arguing before. However, do we have a ruling/faq/sage/custserv response to back this up, or are we essentially still stuck with "DM's Call" here?

Also, what is your opinion on Lady's Gambit + Stone Power? Can you "sacrifice hit points" from your temporary HPs? Lady's Gambit says to take your HPs from your current hit point total. I think temporary HPs would increase your "current hit point total", but I'm not positive... the rules for temp HPs say to note your current hit point total before applying the temp HPs (so you can drop back down to it when the temp HPs go away), so I guess that means the temp HPs temporarily increase your current hit point total. So, assuming you activate Stone Power first, then Lady's Gambit, I guess that would work for +5 damage.

I don't think Steely Resolve works with Lady's Gambit. It's not damage (otherwise the feat would say apply it as damage), and there are no HPs to "sacrifice" in Steely Resolve, nor does Lady's Gambit say that those HPs can be sacrificed from anywhere except your current HP total.

ocato
2007-10-31, 07:10 PM
I actually had a homebrew idea for a class that was somewhat similar to this feat's idea. Think the Dark Knight class in the new Final Fantasy Tactics (I came up with this idea years ago, but never solidified it, that's just the most contemporary analogy I can muster) but I think that Lady's Gambit on a Crusader is pretty much the whole idea in a nut shell. Thanks Interwebz!



STOLEN

Icewalker
2007-10-31, 08:53 PM
Just a comment on the thread title: Who says they are mutually exclusive?


Sounds like the best solution would be to grab something with fast healing.

Catch
2007-10-31, 10:13 PM
I don't think Steely Resolve works with Lady's Gambit. It's not damage (otherwise the feat would say apply it as damage), and there are no HPs to "sacrifice" in Steely Resolve, nor does Lady's Gambit say that those HPs can be sacrificed from anywhere except your current HP total.

It does say apply it as damage. "...taking them from your current hit point total as if you had lost them to damage." That line would not be included in the feat's text if the hit points weren't intended to be taken as damage. Were it so, the line would simply be "reduce your current hit point total" and be done with it. It's not, though.

Attacks reduce your hit points, but with Steely Resolve, that damage is still taken, yet delayed. Same should go for Lady's Gambit. You reduce your hit points with Lady's Gambit, which is technically damage, so when you use Lady's Gambit, you reduce your hit points (as damage). The way the feat is worded, you act as though you've taken damage, which procs Steely Resolve, and the "damage" goes to your delayed damage pool, granting you bonuses from Furious Counterstrike.

ocato
2007-10-31, 10:24 PM
Now for the unique challenge of finding a DM who allowes articles from Dragon magazine... they should really compile some of that stuff into a book, like a Complete Feats or something...

Catch
2007-10-31, 10:30 PM
Now for the unique challenge of finding a DM who allowes articles from Dragon magazine... they should really compile some of that stuff into a book, like a Complete Feats or something...

It's been done. (http://paizo.com/dragon/products/books/v5748btpy7dxa)

ocato
2007-11-01, 12:08 AM
That's delightful! Thanks for the information.

Darrin
2007-11-01, 09:25 AM
That's delightful! Thanks for the information.

There are some gems in there, too. Like Pole Fighter and Unorthodox Flurry for monks. Enspell Familiar and Riposte also have interesting possibilities.