How to handle: Level 20 hitman going after a party of 6 level 5s

[MonkeySage]

My intention is not to cause a party wipe- I would actually like to see my party triumph here, and escape Death's scythe entirely, even if they don't actually beat the Reaper in a fight.

This is for story purposes- to demonstrate that the level 5s have become a pain, a thorn in the side of some very dangerous people in my setting. Never the less, I am pitting them against an extremely over leveled opponent. What can I do to avoid exerting too much force on my party? I want them to win on their own efforts, and feel like they have.

[Gavinfoxx]

First of all.

Why specifically does it have to be level 20?

What purpose does sending a creature that is literally unto the power of a god at them serve?

Do you just mean 'someone powerful that you can later tell the players, "Look, you just took down <an obviously powerful thing!>"?

What are you trying to achieve, and why do you have such a preconceived notion of how to achieve it?

[AlanBruce]

I would ask what the composition of the party is, but with a 15 level advantage from the hitman, it doesn't really matter.

Let's say the party has a wizard, who most likely has Fly as a spell. Chances are the Hit Man in question will have ways to fly too or ground the wizard.

A party druid with wildshape? Not bad. But he won't have access to Natural Spell yet. Anything the 5th level druid can turn into, most likely isn't enough to even scratch or bite the Hit Man. Maybe, just maybe... Entangle to keep this guy at bay while the rest flee. and that's assuming the Hit Man's WBL doesn't give him access to a Freedom of Movement ability... unless he can cast it himself.

Then there's the Cleric. At 5th level, he can't really go toe to toe with a foe like this- Divine Power is just two levels too far.

And those are the T1's. I won't even go into discussing the fighter, rogue, monk, etc. By the numbers, this man will single handedly wipe out the party. Unless you dumb him down considerably, I cannot see a way for them to win. And if they do, are you ready to hand out that much experience and loot? because they will loot the killer, you know this already, right?

I believe there is a rule where you can't level up more than once when given a vast amount of XP, but still, a level 20 vs an ECL 5 party? This is your world, so maybe the rules favor the underdog here, but as is, the only outcome is a TPK.

[Temotei]

I believe there is a rule where you can't level up more than once when given a vast amount of XP

Irrelevant, because they wouldn't get any for this encounter.

[MonkeySage]

The character them self already existed, has for a while... I've had him statted for months, waiting for the opportunity to use him... I wanted to set up this scenario at some point but, well, I realized I might be waiting much longer. My players actually proposed a possible copycat when they got his calling card-they're aware he's after them...

[Silly Name]

Do your players know this guy is level 20, or only have a generic idea that he's stronger than them?

I'll echo the sentiment that the level disparity is far too great, and the party realistically doesn't have the tools that could be used to bridge this gap between them and the hitman.

BUT if they only know that the hitman is strong and successful, you can try to take him down a few levels and have the party face this version - some people may still end up gravely injured or even dead, but if he's level 10-12 they are much more likely to survive (esp if he acts alone, a direct fight would be far too risky). And if he survives the encounter, he may become a recurring villain!

[H_H_F_F]

Friend, do not send out a lvl 20 killer against your party. It's always tempting to bring in your cool npc's into the game, but realistically, you have 3 options here:
1. You play your hitman as extremely, extremely incompetent at what he does, making him(?) way less cool than he should be.
2. They play the encounter incredibly, exceptionally well, and maybe 1 or two of them survive.
3. They play the encounter very well or less, and they get wiped out.

You have other options, depending on the campaign:

Send a cohort of his. Have him show up in the distance and closing in on them as they escape into a portal that closes behind them. Let them meet him in a social context in a safe place, like a king's court, and make sure they escape the city in the night leaving no trace behind. Have him kill their employers/whoever sent them to a mission that aggravated the powerful beings, and have him leave them a calling card. Have him slaughter an NPC that cooperated with them on said missions and their entire village/community.

You can telegraph what you want them to realize in many ways that would not include insane deus ex machina, extreme devaluation of the hitman's capabilities, or a TPK.

Edit: all of the above assumes he's a martial. If he's not, your options are more limited. If he's tier 1, they're already dead.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx
Why specifically does it have to be level 20?


Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
Send a cohort of his.

Exactly this. If you want this level 20 NPC involved, don’t throw him at the party at this point. They’re not worth his time.

Instead, he dispatches a cohort to deal with the party, or better yet one of his followers. Send someone who will be several levels above what the party usually faces, who will be an incredibly stiff fight and who—more than likely—will cause the party to flee as best they can.

This way you’re not spending your cool NPC too early in the storyline; he remains a sinister figure, lurking Out There somewhere, and the party can sweat the possibilities of what he’ll do next.

[Unavenger]

If this guy is a 20th-level warrior (no, not even fighter) and has no way of interacting with things other than hitting them with a longsword, I would still think that most 5th-level parties will probably lose to him. By the time they realise that they need to run away, they're probably already trying to fight him normally in close combat and being duly surprised when he has four attacks for maybe 1d8+5 damage each if he's built badly and if he has no decent equipment, which is going to be most of their hit points. The best thing they can do to take him down is probably spam vs. will spells that can disrupt him for at least turns at a time. But at that point, it's just a case of someone who's so badly built that they don't deserve the title of 20th-level character.

If you send a real 20th-level character at them, they will die, and they will die horribly. Monk may be a joke, but a monk who's immune to every spell they can fire at it (beat SR 30 at level 5?) and whose DR might actually do something (Better hope the druid doesn't try wild shape) oh and by the way, take 10d10+stuff points of damage? A different story. Fighter may suck, but a fighter with a powerful magic weapon and access to the highest-level feats? And lord help them if you actually send a caster of some kind (a single one of the meteors from meteor swarm stands a non-negligible chance of dropping a 5th-level character, and meteor swarm isn't even a good spell).

How should you handle this? DON'T.

[Batcathat]

If they know he's after them, maybe they can set some sort of trap? Though considering the difference in power, it'd probably have to be something along the lines of "lure him somewhere and drop a building on him" rather than just attacking him by surprise.

[daremetoidareyo]

If they know he's after them, maybe they can set some sort of trap? Though considering the difference in power, it'd probably have to be something along the lines of "lure him somewhere and drop a building on him" rather than just attacking him by surprise.

Hey, it worked on the wicked witch...

[Asmotherion]

First of all.

Why specifically does it have to be level 20?

What purpose does sending a creature that is literally unto the power of a god at them serve?

Do you just mean 'someone powerful that you can later tell the players, "Look, you just took down <an obviously powerful thing!>"?

What are you trying to achieve, and why do you have such a preconceived notion of how to achieve it?

I seccond this.

An encounter with an assasin build 4 levels above the party level is already deadly enough. This sounds a lot like DMPCing.

If what you're after is make sure the Assasin has a turn, maximise his HD and give him a big circumstance bonus to hide/move silently. Couple that with invisibility.

Or send an Invisible Stalker. At level 5, those things are a challenge.

[Spellweaver]

It is a bit pointless to have a high level foe attack low level PCs.

Really, the low level PCs should not even really meet the high level ones much as they move in different circles.

So have "the guy" send someone....maybe a couple someones. If you want a fun twist, have him send a 7th level clone or such.

[MonkeySage]

I may run with the idea that this is a copy cat- come to think of it, this might not even be the first time something like this has happened. If I went with this, how could I approach it?

[Asmotherion]

I may run with the idea that this is a copy cat- come to think of it, this might not even be the first time something like this has happened. If I went with this, how could I approach it?

I'd suggest a simulacrum or a dopelganger.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MonkeySage
I may run with the idea that this is a copy cat- come to think of it, this might not even be the first time something like this has happened. If I went with this, how could I approach it?

If the party is already aware that the 20th-level assassin exists, then you can build up the copycat by having him stalk the party over a period of days, leaving whatever signature tokens the actual assassin likes to use. Make it both intimidating and infuriating—have the copycat go through the party’s things when they’re not in their quarters, let him leave mocking notes and other telltale clues.

Let these clues point towards a specific date, sometime very soon, when the copycat claims he’ll pick off the party one at a time. If the party still thinks this is the actual assassin, let them sweat this in spades.

Once the attack happens—it should be fast and brutal, no punches pulled, but the party should be given the chance to get away. Once they’ve retreated, they can start to compare what happened with what should have happened if this had been the actual 20th-level assassin.

And for more entertainment, the actual assassin may be annoyed enough with the copycat to send his own lieutenant to eliminate the copycat—opening the prospect for either a very temporary alliance with the PCs, or just a rather unpleasant conversation in which the lieutenant extracts tactical intel on how the copycat actually fights.

[Calthropstu]

If this guy is a 20th-level warrior...

Behold, the rarely encountered epic level commoner.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you already have him statted up, please post the stats, and we can critique that and tell you at what level it's appropriate for a party to go up against him.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MonkeySage
I've had him statted for months, waiting for the opportunity to use him...

OP, would you be willing to share the details of his build?

[Bucky]

Going by the CR guidelines*, which means ignoring tier gaps and optimization, the level 20 character is about 30 times as powerful as the entire party combined.

In other words, this guy is a force of nature. The party isn't supposed to fight that. The party wins by not fighting.

One way to avoid a fight is diplomacy. I'll assume they don't manage it here because he's murderously angry, but you need to consider it as the GM. Don't count on it working, however.

Another way to avoid the fight is stealth. He can't kill anyone he can't find. This works both on a strategic level - leaving red herrings so that he never comes within a mile of the battlefield - and a tactical level with illusions or actual Hide checks.

Finally, they can avoid the fight by outrunning him. Whether they're simply faster, or whether they take measures to slow him down, or whether they use a movement mode he can't match, they can keep out of his reach until he gives up.

Of course, for either stealth or flight to be feasible, he needs a corresponding area where he's weaker than the party despite his resources. He might've broken his ranged weapon, so that he needs to get within arms reach or use a limited supply of thrown objects. Or he might be stuck without darkvision in a dark area, where he's tracking by an under-ranked Listen skill while the party's darkvision-capable members avoid the assassin and attack his limited light sources.

Either way, though, he does have some resources or else he's not a proper force of nature. If the party bars the door, he breaks it down with his bare hands. If a party member speaks in the dark, he throws a torch at them.
When they think he's stopped for good, he pulls out some limited-use ability and they need to stop him again.

I'd put together the encounter in an environment with a wide variety of all three options - hiding spots and cover all over the place, paths he can't use well but individual party members can, and at least six different party-triggerable trap options to "stop" him long enough to get someone away from him.



*In order for a by-the-book comparison to work across this large a gap, we need to use an intermediate. For example, the entire party's an easy encounter for a pair of level 12s, and a 4-man party of those level 12s are a similarly easy encounter for the level 20. You can actually demonstrate this in-game by having them find out about a 'bigger fish' incident where he casually took out a group of things that the party knows it can't handle individually.

EDIT: tldr - run it like you're running a horror game rather than D&D.

[Thurbane]

I'm having flashbacks to 1E (Village of Hommlet/ToEE) where once you kill Lareth, his cult sends some ridiculously high level Assassin after the party. And for anyone who didn't play 1E, the way Assassins worked was there was just a flat % chance you died: no to hit roll or anything!

I'm not 100% sure if this was written in the module, or our DM at the time was ad-libbing.

Nope, just cracked out the module and checked: they send a 10th level Assassin after the party - the PCs would be about level 3 or 4 at the time. :smallfrown:

[legomaster00156]

My first piece of advice is not to do this. My second piece of advice is to use a copycat killer or stooge of the actual killer. My third piece of advice is to run this not as a combat encounter, but an escape sequence.
Choose one.

[Batcathat]

EDIT: tldr - run it like you're running a horror game rather than D&D.

This is a good point and one way of dealing with it might be to lean into that interpretation. Don't treat it as adventurers facing an enemy, treat it as normal humans being stalked by an invincible monster. Might even be an interesting change of pace for the players (assuming, of course, that they understand that they aren't supposed to fight).

[Kurald Galain]

The impression I get is that these "very dangerous people in my setting" are (substantially) higher level than the hitman, because otherwise the hitman wouldn't be working for them.

So what we're talking about here doesn't just apply to this one fight, but to the entire campaign. When (if) the players defeat this hitman, what happens next? Do they get to fight his boss who is level 25 now? Or conversely, was that the strongest person they'll ever face for the next ten levels?

...it helps your campaign if you pace yourself better.

[Silly Name]

The impression I get is that these "very dangerous people in my setting" are (substantially) higher level than the hitman, because otherwise the hitman wouldn't be working for them.


I mean, not necessarily. They may just be obscenely rich and influential, which doesn't require being Epic level, just having money. Or maybe they are very dangerous exactly because they can employ level 20 hitmen and other dangerous creatures, like fiends and aberrations.

But the idea that a "leader" must be stronger (by a definition of stronger that takes in account magic) than their underlings doesn't make sense. Caesar was an ageing man suffering from epileptic fits, he still ruled Rome even if any of his bodyguards could have killed him with ease. The reason one has bodyguards is because you trust them to do a better job at protecting you than you'd do yourself!

[Kurald Galain]

I mean, not necessarily.
Not necessarily, but commonly true in RPGs precisely because how obscenely powerful level 20 characters are. So it is worth considering for the campaign, and shouldn't be outright dismissed because it might not be true.

Because the level-20 assassin might just as well decide "I'm in charge now" and kill his employers - which is exactly what happened to Caesar, too.

[H_H_F_F]

Not necessarily, but commonly true in RPGs precisely because how obscenely powerful level 20 characters are. So it is worth considering for the campaign, and shouldn't be outright dismissed because it might not be true.

Because the level-20 assassin might just as well decide "I'm in charge now" and kill his employers - which is exactly what happened to Caesar, too.

That is not exactly what happened to Caesar, who was killed by rivaling politicians in the senate after basically declaring the end of the republic. It is also something that happens, but very rarely. If someone who's skill set is "good at killing people" attempts to take command of a complex political structure, it usually doesn't go well for them.

I'll give you this: RPGs like 3.5 are often built in a way that makes it impossible for someone to be a brilliant strategist and negotiator with extensive knowledge without also being dangerous in battle. However, most DMs I know simply ignore this, and are perfectly comfortable having brilliant merchants, strategists and politicians without giving them the appropriate level for their capabilities.

[Batcathat]

That is not exactly what happened to Caesar, who was killed by rivaling politicians in the senate after basically declaring the end of the republic. It is also something that happens, but very rarely. If someone who's skill set is "good at killing people" attempts to take command of a complex political structure, it usually doesn't go well for them.

While you're right about Caesar, "killed by the Praetorian guard" was a disturbingly common cause of death among Roman Emperors. That being said, I do agree with your general point that people are usually able to employ killers without being killed by them.

Personally, I usually don't like the idea of the leader being the best fighter (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorityEqualsAsskicking) in general, since it usually makes very little sense for someone who spends all day behind a desk or on a throne being an exceptional fighter. I suppose it's mostly used to justify an epic final fight but still.

[hungrycrow]

While you're right about Caesar, "killed by the Praetorian guard" was a disturbingly common cause of death among Roman Emperors. That being said, I do agree with your general point that people are usually able to employ killers without being killed by them.

Personally, I usually don't like the idea of the leader being the best fighter (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorityEqualsAsskicking) in general, since it usually makes very little sense for someone who spends all day behind a desk or on a throne being an exceptional fighter. I suppose it's mostly used to justify an epic final fight but still.

A lot of leaders back then were decent fighters, since being seen on the battlefield was a good way of getting respect from soldiers. I don't think you can become a leader purely by assassinating your way to the top though. You had to have some sort of claim to legitimacy, or everyone else would just murder you after you killed the previous leader. The closest I can think of to actually doing this was Maximinus Thrax, who was merely an officer before he became emperor.

[H_H_F_F]

While you're right about Caesar, "killed by the Praetorian guard" was a disturbingly common cause of death among Roman Emperors. That being said, I do agree with your general point that people are usually able to employ killers without being killed by them.

Personally, I usually don't like the idea of the leader being the best fighter (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AuthorityEqualsAsskicking) in general, since it usually makes very little sense for someone who spends all day behind a desk or on a throne being an exceptional fighter. I suppose it's mostly used to justify an epic final fight but still.

The Praetorian guard became something far more than "bodyguards" within less than a century, and it's very unique in history. More importantly, it was an institution, not just some very good fighters deciding they want to run things.

I think we're in agreement, all in all. It can happen, but it's rare, and in general rulers don't have to be battlefield powers by themselves. D&D's structure kind of forces that unless you ignore the rules, and that's a shame. Conventional adventuring structure also plays a part, as you mention.

As for myself, I had both personally powerful and personally harmless leaders and influential NPC's in every campaign I ever ran, and I like it that way.

[Silly Name]

Moving away from the tangent on Roman history I accidentally started, to answer the actual questions posed by MonkeySage:

If you have established the existence of a copycat, a relatively fun option is to have the PCs get ambushed the copycat, who's quite good at imitating the MO of the actual hitman but obviously doesn't have the same level of skill and power, and after a battle realises that this guy is weirdly less powerful than they had expected (or maybe they commit the sin of hubris and think they're supercool)... Only for them to find something that clearly proves this one was the copycat and that he had stolen the job from the real assassin - maybe his main skills are forgery and impersonation, and since the hitman is sort of a freelancer rather than in the regular employ of the party's enemies, he tried to snatch glory and money for himself.

Of course, this means now there is a powerful assassin who either A) is happy the party dealt with this nuisance, thus perhaps offering them a sporting chance instead of killing them outright, or even giving them a "freebie", orrrrrr B) is very angry there are now rumors of him getting defeated by a bunch of novices and so seeks the party out to settle this. I'd still recommend powering the actual hitman down, so that the gap is there but it's not so big as to result into an unhittable monster who can oneshot everyone in the party.

[Kurald Galain]

The point isn't whether or not a leader can hire an assassin that's vastly stronger than himself.

The point is, after a combat like this, how do you prevent the rest of the campaign from being either an anticlimax, or another fight against an even stronger enemy. Of course this can be done, but it would really help if you consider it in advance.

[Calthropstu]

I mean, not necessarily. They may just be obscenely rich and influential, which doesn't require being Epic level, just having money. Or maybe they are very dangerous exactly because they can employ level 20 hitmen and other dangerous creatures, like fiends and aberrations.

But the idea that a "leader" must be stronger (by a definition of stronger that takes in account magic) than their underlings doesn't make sense. Caesar was an ageing man suffering from epileptic fits, he still ruled Rome even if any of his bodyguards could have killed him with ease. The reason one has bodyguards is because you trust them to do a better job at protecting you than you'd do yourself!

Agreed. Unless you think whitney houston should have been able to punch out kevin costner, the logic of "a person wouldn't work for someone weaker than themselves" is rather ludicrous.

[Kurald Galain]

whitney houston should have been able to punch out kevin costner

Yes, she can totally do that. And cast higher-level magic than him, too. :smallcool:

[Batcathat]

Agreed. Unless you think whitney houston should have been able to punch out kevin costner, the logic of "a person wouldn't work for someone weaker than themselves" is rather ludicrous.

Despite arguing against it in my last post, I do think the concept makes a little more sense in D&D. In the real world, even an exceptionally talented warrior can be overwhelmed fairly easily but in D&D a level 20 character who's just murdered the king could probably just start killing their way through the entire army until everyone accepted their authority.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by H_H_F_F
The Praetorian guard became something far more than "bodyguards" within less than a century, and it's very unique in history.

Not at all unique. The Varangian Guard in the Byzantine Empire and the Janissaries in the Ottoman Empire developed in much the same way, an elite bodyguard that became a center of power and kingmakers in their own right.


Originally Posted by Batcathat
…a level 20 character who's just murdered the king could probably just start killing their way through the entire army until everyone accepted their authority.

Probably true in most cases, although Thor: Ragnarok provides a strong counterexample.

Hela killed the entire army of Asgard, and yet no one ever accepted her authority, apart from one ex-janitor who later regretted his choice.

[ithildur]

I have a better suggestion to the OP:

Let someone else DM. The fact you thought this was a good idea screams "I am not ready to run a campaign yet".

Not trying to be rude, just genuinely being honest. You're not ready. Spare yourself and the other players a lot of grief, play, and watch someone else (hopefully competently) run a campaign, take notes.

[MonkeySage]

I have a better suggestion to the OP:

Let someone else DM. The fact you thought this was a good idea screams "I am not ready to run a campaign yet".

Not trying to be rude, just genuinely being honest. You're not ready. Spare yourself and the other players a lot of grief, play, and watch someone else (hopefully competently) run a campaign, take notes.

I wasn't going to put them up against something they can't handle. That's why I made this thread, because I had doubts about the idea. I have decided against putting them up against a level 20, so at this point I'd say the original question of the thread is moot. How to handle a level 20 hitman going after the party? Don't. I'm going with the copycat idea.

I've had DMs in the past that were willing to put a party of level 5s up against, not one, but two tarrasques, which in addition to sounding ridiculous, was completely and utterly incompetent. That same DM railroaded all of us and when I refused to cooperate with his plans, he had an npc use Vengeful Gaze of God against my level 10 character. I'm never going to do that.

I've had bad ideas in the past, every so often I get a very bad idea- this just happened to be one of them. I usually ask others for help when i get these bad ideas, so i don't ruin my campaigns with them.

[Batcathat]

I have a better suggestion to the OP:

Let someone else DM. The fact you thought this was a good idea screams "I am not ready to run a campaign yet".

Not trying to be rude, just genuinely being honest. You're not ready. Spare yourself and the other players a lot of grief, play, and watch someone else (hopefully competently) run a campaign, take notes.

Rude or not, that seems extremely harsh based on the information available. Whether the situation the OP created for themselves is a mistake or not, I don't think it's enough to say that he's not ready to run a campaign.

I'm no stranger to being brutally honest myself, but I don't see how your conclusion could be anywhere near certain.

[Twurps]

I have a better suggestion to the OP:

Let someone else DM. The fact you thought this was a good idea screams "I am not ready to run a campaign yet".

Not trying to be rude, just genuinely being honest. You're not ready. Spare yourself and the other players a lot of grief, play, and watch someone else (hopefully competently) run a campaign, take notes.

I see an OP that's open to feedback, and willing to learn. That's all I ask from a DM. Now he *might* be missing a bit of experience. but he'll never get that if he gives up now.

[Calthropstu]

Here's howI would play it:

"You arrive at your benefactor's place to a scene of pure crnage. Everyone there, even the guard captain you knew was stronger than you, was slain with a single precise blow. On your benefactors corpse rests a single card. A card famous around these parts. There can be no mistake. No one would be stupid enough to imitate that card. The legendary assassin is in play."

At this point, lore rolls, knowledge rolls and wisdom checks should be made to know that they need to run. Give them an idea of where to run to and give them a couple options of how to get there without being run down and slaughtered. At that location is someone who has stood up to the legendary assassin before and come out on top. If they try to run off on their own, let them try running through the woods or wherever they run to. If they try going to the city guard or other authorities, have them found dead soon after. Have this guy make sport of the PCs before moving in for the kill. At some point, if the PCs take stupid actions or fail to act at all, the assassin appears and kills them.