utility cantrips

[elyktsorb]

What are some of the best utility cantrips (on the sorcerer spell list) since I'm about to take a lvl of it (I'm a rogue/thief) and I want to really get the most out of them. So far the ones I thought would be the most useful are Control Flames, Shape Water, and Mending.

[Aeriox]

For a thief, mage hand and minor illusion could both be very helpful. Booming blade can also be very good for rogues in general if you don’t mind taking a non-utility cantrip. Prestidigitation is also kinda fun regardless of your class.

[Tanarii]

Message is hands down the best utility cantrip for a scouting type rogue.
(Not to be confused with the Scout archetype.)

[elyktsorb]

Message is hands down the best utility cantrip for a scouting type rogue.

I'm not really a scouting rogue.

[Tanarii]

They're all pretty contingent on the kinds of situations you end up in.

Control Flames is awesome if you've got party members that keep trying to burn the buildings around you down with Fireballs or missed Firebolts.

Mage hand is useful if you often end up in situations where you need remote manipulation, although if you aren't a sneaky scout those are less common. Still good for avoiding some traps though.

Light is great if you're operating in dungeons a lot.

Minor illusion and Friends can be useful for quick con social situations.

Mold Earth is great if you're on defense in outdoor areas a lot.

Shape Water is awesome ... maybe if you want to play a water dancer working a bazaar? I've never seen this cantrip put to very good use. But folks seem to like it anyway.

Prestidigitation is basically useless unless you're a three card monte con artist, or you want to spend a cantrip slot for creature comforts.

Edit: Mending depends on how often you have to fix the door that the bored Fighter broke open while you were in the middle of picking the lock. :smallamused:

[Greywander]

Booming Blade can be a good damage boost and add some control to your attacks, if you're a melee rogue.

As for utility cantrips, here are some good ones:

Mage Hand - Not as good as on an AT rogue, but there's something to be said for being able to open doors and handle items from 30 feet away.
Mending - Oh no, someone smashed the priceless Macguffin, whatever will we do? If only we had a spell that could fix this instead of needing to go on a long quest.
Message - YMMV, it does have verbal and somatic components, so everyone should know that you've just cast a spell, even if they don't know what it was.
Minor Illusion - Heavily dependent on how your DM handles illusions. If the DM plays fair, you can do a lot with this. Note that it can make sounds or images.
Mold Earth - Literally dig in a few seconds what would take hours with a shovel. Dig pits, erect walls, fortify your camp before resting. Really good cantrip.
Prestidigitation - None of the effects are particularly strong, but there is such a variety that this becomes really good in the hands of a creative player.
Shape Water - You know those pits you dug with Mold Earth? Put some ice spikes at the bottom. Also, walk across water, walk underwater with an air bubble, etc.
Honorable Mentions: Control Flames, Friends, Gust, Light

[Tanarii]

Mold Earth - Literally dig in a few seconds what would take hours with a shovel. Dig pits, erect walls, fortify your camp before resting. Really good cantrip.
Yeah, it's worth noting that it's 6 seconds to do about four hours of hard work. Edit: correction, according to google, it's 8 hours of hard work.

[elyktsorb]

They're all pretty contingent on the kinds of situations you end up in.

Control Flames is awesome if you've got party members that keep trying to burn the buildings around you down with Fireballs or missed Firebolts.

Mage hand is useful if you often end up in situations where you need remote manipulation, although if you aren't a sneaky scout those are less common. Still good for avoiding some traps though.

Light is great if you're operating in dungeons a lot.

Minor illusion and Friends can be useful for quick con social situations.

Mold Earth is great if you're on defense in outdoor areas a lot.

Shape Water is awesome ... maybe if you want to play a water dancer working a bazaar? I've never seen this cantrip put to very good use. But folks seem to like it anyway.

Prestidigitation is basically useless unless you're a three card monte con artist, or you want to spend a cantrip slot for creature comforts.

Edit: Mending depends on how often you have to fix the door that the bored Fighter broke open while you were in the middle of picking the lock. :smallamused:

I mainly wanted control flames because I'm taking shadow sorcerer and as such I will see in dark and some enemies will not.

I'm trying to think of stuff to use with mage hand that wouldn't just be covered by me using another mundane object to set off traps, of course being able to reach things is nice, but I could technically mimic Mage Hand using Shape Water to an extent anyway.

Light is, redundant.

I'm not sold on minor illusion mainly because I'm always too paranoid about how to use it in regards to what will make sense and being seen using it. Like I'd rather just hide in available locations than risk creating an illusion to hide behind. Friends is kind of rubbish for long term plans.

Thought about mold earth, but I tend to not need much in the way of cover as lightfoot halfling.

And yeah, I couldn't think of anything worthwhile to use prestidigitation for.

[moonfly7]

I'm going to point you at control flames, mold earth, shape water, and prestidigitation. Two of these have been disputed up thread, but from personal experience only I'd suggest defintley considering prestidigitation and shape water if you can take them, the other 2 as well but these were the only ones you might not be sure about.
My reasoning for why you should take them, coming straight from our games:
Bard used prestidigitation to create a "small trinket". Made a key to our jail cell and we escaped.
Wizard used Prestidigitation to great a terrible stink on a guard, so foul he had to make a con save or throw up. He failed and we snuck past.
Bard Used prestidigitation to shoot a dust mephit with a puff of wind. Broke up the dust and DM ruled it could deal 1d4 damage, killed it(this is obviously subject to DM approval)
Used prestidigitation to light a wick to a cask of oil and explosives about 50 feet away after being ambushed before I could light them after they tied me up I made the movements behind my back before they could dismantle it.
For your rogue you could use it to distract people as fires suddenly light, plunge a room or camp into darkness by snuffing their torches or fire, or lead dogs off your cent With the smell of fresh meat. Even color your clothes differently to throw off suspicion in a crowd after an escape.

Control water can:
Be used to grapple foes
Create tiny water dummies that can be given the simple command to run in a specific direction making noise to distract would be pursuers.
Make a boat go faster
Cushion your fall from an impossible hieght via pouring water from multiple sacks on your body
Create an almost invisible tripline made of hyperchilled ice.
Ice pathways after you've run down them
Ice steps
You get the idea. Anything that gives you that much creative freedom like the shape and control cantrips is going to be useful, and every spell caster I've ever played with packs prestidigitation.

[pragma]

My top four for utility purposes:
* Prestidigitation -- cleaning up the scene of the crime, particularly getting blood out of carpets
* Minor Illusion -- hiding under cardboard boxes when guards walk by
* Mending -- repairing broken windows during second story work
* Mold Earth -- tunneling into the vault

Other useful notes:
* Shape water -- seems likely to depend a great deal on the GM. "Does expanding ice break locks?" is a very salient question. So is their take on the structural soundness of ice sculptures you make.
* Message -- potentially very strong. Talking silently goes a really long way.
* Friends -- ironically, is only good for making enemies. The fact the target knows they've been affected by mind altering magic after a minute seems likely to burn bridges (depends on table, some GMs seem OK with it).
* Control flames -- if your GM is more of a pyromaniac than you are, maybe this helps. Mostly players seem to be doing the fire lighting in my experience.

[Tanarii]

Bard used prestidigitation to create a "small trinket". Made a key to our jail cell and we escaped.
Wizard used Prestidigitation to great a terrible stink on a guard, so foul he had to make a con save or throw up. He failed and we snuck past.
Bard Used prestidigitation to shoot a dust mephit with a puff of wind. Broke up the dust and DM ruled it could deal 1d4 damage, killed it(this is obviously subject to DM approval)
Two of these should be a no go, the cantrip doesn't do things that cause a save or does damage.

I agree the way it's worded the trinket doesn't have to be illusionary (which I always forget), but allowing it to create a "trinket" that is a key that's specific to a lock is a serious stretch IMO. Minor Conjuration should be able to do it if you've seen the key before though.

Same for Shape Water & grappling.

If your DM allows you to extend the cantrips to attacks or saves, the value of them definitely goes up.

[moonfly7]

Two of these should be a no go, the cantrip doesn't do things that cause a save or does damage.

I agree the way it's worded the trinket doesn't have to be illusionary (which I always forget), but allowing it to create a "trinket" that is a key that's specific to a lock is a serious stretch IMO. Minor Conjuration should be able to do it if you've seen the key before though.

Same for Shape Water & grappling.

If your DM allows you to extend the cantrips to attacks or saves, the value of them definitely goes up.

Yes the cantrip doesn't actively cause saves, however grappling sounds well with the preview and you would need a save for this. An admittedly imperfect example would be using control flames to reach out and burn people. This is obviously possible and would deal damage but the spell doesn't say it does. Although I do agree the water thing is definitley subject to DM fiat. But drowning someone's head in a sphere of water is definitley doable.
As for the trinket thing, if a key can be considered a small trinket, you should be able to use the spell to create a key to a door.
You might need to see the key first but most doors in midevil ages, which most dnd games are set, had skeleton locks which generally used keys that were more than a little interchangeable.
That aside, that's really only 2 things a you might not be able to do from a large list of things that are 100% fine. My point still stands that the only reason you couldn't find use for these cantrips is because your not thinking about all the possibilities.

[Aussiehams]

I'm going to point you at control flames, mold earth, shape water, and prestidigitation. Two of these have been disputed up thread, but from personal experience only I'd suggest defintley considering prestidigitation and shape water if you can take them, the other 2 as well but these were the only ones you might not be sure about.
My reasoning for why you should take them, coming straight from our games:
Bard used prestidigitation to create a "small trinket". Made a key to our jail cell and we escaped.
Wizard used Prestidigitation to great a terrible stink on a guard, so foul he had to make a con save or throw up. He failed and we snuck past.
Bard Used prestidigitation to shoot a dust mephit with a puff of wind. Broke up the dust and DM ruled it could deal 1d4 damage, killed it(this is obviously subject to DM approval)
Used prestidigitation to light a wick to a cask of oil and explosives about 50 feet away after being ambushed before I could light them after they tied me up I made the movements behind my back before they could dismantle it.


You have an extraordinarily permissive DM.

[ImproperJustice]

It’s simple:

Need to hide a couple bodies in a hurry?

Mold Earth

Wanna have a Roman style camp every night?

Mold Earth

Need to block a passage, dig a pit, fill in a pit, make a fox hole, build a ramp or cover for allies.

Mold Earth


Wanna gets some dust or grime off that old tome or doorway?

Mold Earth

Likewise, if Dirt ain’t yer thing,
Shape Water also has a myriad of subtle uses. Especially if you are doing stealth work near water. Did you know it’s somatic only?
So you can use it all silent like.

Clear a small path through low bodies of water to avoid water noise, create an ice flow and use currents to move along the surface.


I know there are other uses it’s just late and my mind is fuzzy, but those two are my favorite utility cantrips.

[Chronos]

I've always found that Message's range is way too short to be useful, and it's also severely hindered by having a verbal component. And a lot of what it can do, Minor Illusion can do too, plus so much more.

I mean, sure, it does have use cases. If I got it for free, I wouldn't complain. But cantrips come at a steep opportunity cost-- You only get, what, four of them? Maybe six over your entire career? There are going to be a lot more times that you'll wish you had something else, than that you'll be glad you have Message.

[KorvinStarmast]

Prestidigitation is basically useless unless you're a three card monte con artist, or you want to spend a cantrip slot for creature comforts.I do the party's laundry with it. All boots are clean and shine like new. Each item of clothing will fit into that volume, a 1 ' cube, so I clean them.

You instantaneously clean or soil an object no larger than 1 cubic foot.
We always look good when we present ourselves at the inn, tavern, guild hall, palace, town hall, etc. :smallcool: They each have to take their own bath, however, of otherwise clean themselves off.

I can light a torch, a fire, or snuff one out at need. (Great for some social scenes)

[XmonkTad]

I love shape water, and I'll +1 it here. Worth noting that a 5 foot cube of ice weighs over 3 tons. Considering you can dismiss it at will, that can be some serious area denial. It can also be used as a makeshift "message" by making an ice object and you can tell your party that if it melts, you're in trouble.
My favorite use is the "break lock" use, but that's DM dependent.

I'm gonna also pitch Prestidigitation. I have had fair luck luring goblins into a variety of traps with good smells. Cleanliness and delicious food are bonuses, as is silent communication by conjuring a 1-hour effect that you can dismiss from anywhere. It's fun!

Minor illusion can be S tier if the DM like illusions. Otherwise, pick something tangible.

[Man_Over_Game]

Minor Illusion has my vote.

Officially, it's been used to imitate voices, in Princes of the Apocalypse I think. I've also used it to maintain a drum beat for my Bard's performance, and I've also combined it with Disguise Self to make myself smell like I looked.

Prestidigitation has a powerful benefit to flavor things to your choosing. Once combined that with Shape Water to make snow cones, although it gets awkward to explain if I need to conjure a fourth cone before the first is finished. It also lets you put up symbols to guide people if you know backup is coming.

[Mjolnirbear]

Minor Illusion is the paragon of utility. It is amazing in any of the three pillars and clutch scenes can be its forte. Imagine fleeing the ogre, leaping into a kobold tunnel, and making an illusion of a wall.

Shape Water is like Minor Illusion, but solid. You can make almost anything out of ice, like lock picks or a sword or cooling your wine in heat waves in Baldur's Gate. With a simple canteen you can bend water into a door frame, freeze it solid, and make it locked. I have made 'diving helmets' for a bonus to my save against a gas attack, and a big lens to focus light. Now ice isn't metal, so an ice sword wouldn't last long in combat, but still amazing.



Mold Earth

I have never played a caster with Feather Fall. This is my feather fall. When you're captured in an kobold burrow or a hobgoblin cage or an ogre's earthworks hole you always have a way out.

But a 5' hole is actually huge. You can build an earthworks palisade, a moat, a trap, a grave, dig shelter for the night, block off pursuit in a tunnel... It's great.

Mage Hand

Before Arcane Trickster got invented during the Next playtest, I had a ton of fun using a ghostly, silent hand for pranks, gags, theft, implantation of evidence, opening things from 30 feet away, grabbing keys off belts, and minor chores whilst showing off or being lazy.

Prestidigitation

This is the ultimate pretentious noble pacifier. The food is always delicious, the clothes are always clean, the fire is lit instantly, the bath is the perfect temperature, and the champagne is always ice cold.

It is correspondingly also the pretentious noble ego-puncturer. The food is as gross as possible, the Queen is embarrassed by an audible fart, the sheriff has horse pucky on his shoes and dammit the lamp just won't stay lit.

[elyktsorb]

Minor Illusion is the paragon of utility. It is amazing in any of the three pillars and clutch scenes can be its forte. Imagine fleeing the ogre, leaping into a kobold tunnel, and making an illusion of a wall.

Shape Water is like Minor Illusion, but solid. You can make almost anything out of ice, like lock picks or a sword or cooling your wine in heat waves in Baldur's Gate. With a simple canteen you can bend water into a door frame, freeze it solid, and make it locked. I have made 'diving helmets' for a bonus to my save against a gas attack, and a big lens to focus light. Now ice isn't metal, so an ice sword wouldn't last long in combat, but still amazing.



Mold Earth

I have never played a caster with Feather Fall. This is my feather fall. When you're captured in an kobold burrow or a hobgoblin cage or an ogre's earthworks hole you always have a way out.

But a 5' hole is actually huge. You can build an earthworks palisade, a moat, a trap, a grave, dig shelter for the night, block off pursuit in a tunnel... It's great.

Mage Hand

Before Arcane Trickster got invented during the Next playtest, I had a ton of fun using a ghostly, silent hand for pranks, gags, theft, implantation of evidence, opening things from 30 feet away, grabbing keys off belts, and minor chores whilst showing off or being lazy.

Prestidigitation

This is the ultimate pretentious noble pacifier. The food is always delicious, the clothes are always clean, the fire is lit instantly, the bath is the perfect temperature, and the champagne is always ice cold.

It is correspondingly also the pretentious noble ego-puncturer. The food is as gross as possible, the Queen is embarrassed by an audible fart, the sheriff has horse pucky on his shoes and dammit the lamp just won't stay lit.

My issue with Minor Illusion is that I'm going to be in a lot of buildings, where a sudden item may look incredibly out of place.

Yeah I think I can get a lot of mileage out of shape water


Mold Earth, again, gunna be in a lot of areas without exposed dirt.

Mage Hand, most of what I would use it for, opening doors/setting off traps, I can do with other stuff. Consequently, I'm partially convinced I can use shape water to do a majority of things one would do with Mage Hand.

Prestidigitation, yeah I'm not playing a character that cares about that stuff, and I prefer the 60ft distance of fire expunging control flame offers.

[Contrast]

You mentioned the sorc spell list but just in case you're still up in the air about what type of sorc exactly - Divine Soul get access to cleric cantrips and Guidance is probably the best cantrip in the game and useful for a rogue.

I agree that Moonflys DM is more permissive with the interpretation of Prestidigitation than I've ever seen a DM be but as the same time its pretty much an auto include every time I have access to it. Just for character reasons being able to describe my character being clean and enjoying their food is very satisfying. I always find a way to describe using it even if not for great mechanical effect in a way that I sometimes struggle for with other cantrips who may only get used a couple of times in a whole campaign.

[Tanarii]

My issue with Minor Illusion is that I'm going to be in a lot of buildings, where a sudden item may look incredibly out of place.
Minor Illusion is at its most useful in an urban environment, that's where the widest variety of objects are found.

[Mjolnirbear]

My issue with Minor Illusion is that I'm going to be in a lot of buildings, where a sudden item may look incredibly out of place.

Yeah I think I can get a lot of mileage out of shape water


Mold Earth, again, gunna be in a lot of areas without exposed dirt.

Mage Hand, most of what I would use it for, opening doors/setting off traps, I can do with other stuff. Consequently, I'm partially convinced I can use shape water to do a majority of things one would do with Mage Hand.

Prestidigitation, yeah I'm not playing a character that cares about that stuff, and I prefer the 60ft distance of fire expunging control flame offers.

Without loose dirt, Mold Earth becomes a tactical (difficult terrain generator) and a signaller (leave messages, shape an image, maybe disguise stains?). Minor Illusion can do the signaller thing (try Slightly Psychic Paper) but it's not semi-permanent like Mold Earth. It can work in gardens and parks very well. But if you're in an area with almost no loose dirt and have no plans to leave, then I agree, I'd choose something else too.

Minor Illusion is more useful when intelligent things are around. A lion or owlbear stalking you through the underbrush is likely tracking you as much by scent and sound as by sight, and Minor Illusion is less useful there.

Like Tanarii said, it's best in an urban environment, for several reasons. Are you spying on someone? Be a bush or a barrel. Avoiding pursuit? Make a crate in an out-of-the-way corner. Why do these work? Because "If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the illusion becomes faint to the creature." You can see through your illusion; you can watch through the walls of your 'crate'. You can overlay the illusion of a closed door on a door, open the door, and see through it. You can 'block off' a narrow alley easily with a pile of trash.

It also does sound. Want to distract a guard? Imitate a distant call for help in the opposite direction as you take advantage. The sound of a lover's argument to distract the sounds of your grappling hook digging into stone.

And importantly, Intelligence (Investigation) check bonuses are rare in NPC stat blocks. It's like attacking an AC 10 mob; easy as pie.

As for replicating mage hand with shape water... shape water is, indeed, incredibly versatile. It might work. As a DM however, I'm wary of letting one spell copy another spell's effects. If Minor Illusion is allowed to make a patch of shadow, then the Darkness spell is less useful. If Minor Illusion is allowed to make Light, then someone with the Light cantrip just wasted their cantrip pick. (MI can make neither darkness nor light as they are neither objects nor sounds; but I've seen it done anyways). So as a DM I'd be very wary, and absolutely nix anything requiring manual dexterity (like picking things up).

[elyktsorb]

You mentioned the sorc spell list but just in case you're still up in the air about what type of sorc exactly - Divine Soul get access to cleric cantrips and Guidance is probably the best cantrip in the game and useful for a rogue.

I agree that Moonflys DM is more permissive with the interpretation of Prestidigitation than I've ever seen a DM be but as the same time its pretty much an auto include every time I have access to it. Just for character reasons being able to describe my character being clean and enjoying their food is very satisfying. I always find a way to describe using it even if not for great mechanical effect in a way that I sometimes struggle for with other cantrips who may only get used a couple of times in a whole campaign.

I'm taking Shadow mainly for the darkvision, halfling after all. And I don't need much for my main skills which are 10+ at this point


Without loose dirt, Mold Earth becomes a tactical (difficult terrain generator) and a signaller (leave messages, shape an image, maybe disguise stains?). Minor Illusion can do the signaller thing (try Slightly Psychic Paper) but it's not semi-permanent like Mold Earth. It can work in gardens and parks very well. But if you're in an area with almost no loose dirt and have no plans to leave, then I agree, I'd choose something else too.

Minor Illusion is more useful when intelligent things are around. A lion or owlbear stalking you through the underbrush is likely tracking you as much by scent and sound as by sight, and Minor Illusion is less useful there.

Like Tanarii said, it's best in an urban environment, for several reasons. Are you spying on someone? Be a bush or a barrel. Avoiding pursuit? Make a crate in an out-of-the-way corner. Why do these work? Because "If a creature discerns the illusion for what it is, the illusion becomes faint to the creature." You can see through your illusion; you can watch through the walls of your 'crate'. You can overlay the illusion of a closed door on a door, open the door, and see through it. You can 'block off' a narrow alley easily with a pile of trash.

It also does sound. Want to distract a guard? Imitate a distant call for help in the opposite direction as you take advantage. The sound of a lover's argument to distract the sounds of your grappling hook digging into stone.

And importantly, Intelligence (Investigation) check bonuses are rare in NPC stat blocks. It's like attacking an AC 10 mob; easy as pie.

As for replicating mage hand with shape water... shape water is, indeed, incredibly versatile. It might work. As a DM however, I'm wary of letting one spell copy another spell's effects. If Minor Illusion is allowed to make a patch of shadow, then the Darkness spell is less useful. If Minor Illusion is allowed to make Light, then someone with the Light cantrip just wasted their cantrip pick. (MI can make neither darkness nor light as they are neither objects nor sounds; but I've seen it done anyways). So as a DM I'd be very wary, and absolutely nix anything requiring manual dexterity (like picking things up).

I'm not going to be in urban environments, I'm going to be indoors, like, in peoples houses/castles, where a sudden new object in an area that's likely patrolled multiple times per day, would look very suspect. Or would just be liable to be interacted with by mistake. Not to mention if I need to make a distracting noise, I can likely just, throw a rock somewhere, or rig something to knock over with string. I should also mention that this is a very intrigue heavy game, so a lot of characters both allies and enemies, are more geared towards stuff like investigation.

Picking up things with shape water is easy for small things, just get a small amount of water over to the item, freeze it around the item, then use some more water to get the item floating in it, or if the item is lighter than water than just make a bowl shape around the item and float it over. Obviously this wouldn't work for very heavy items, or fragile items, but if the requirement is it being 30ft out of reach and being seen isn't an issue, then I don't see why it couldn't work. Would I be able to open a door? Probably not, maybe if it was already open I could push ice against it to open it further.

[Tanarii]

I'm not going to be in urban environments, I'm going to be indoors, like, in peoples houses/castles, where a sudden new object in an area that's likely patrolled multiple times per day, would look very suspect. Or would just be liable to be interacted with by mistake. Not to mention if I need to make a distracting noise, I can likely just, throw a rock somewhere, or rig something to knock over with string. I should also mention that this is a very intrigue heavy game, so a lot of characters both allies and enemies, are more geared towards stuff like investigation.

The more you describe the campaign you're going to be in, the more it sounds to me like my top picks would be Message and Minor Illusion in that campaign. Maybe Friends as the third pick.

[patchyman]

Control Flames can also be used to extinguish flames. Very useful on torches and lanterns when trying to sneak around.

[BoxANT]

Prestidigitation:
-make a copy of a map (mark)
-leave mark on target
-create 3D image in hand, when combined w scouting familiar, good for showing party
-heat or cool clothes in survival situations
-

Shape Water:
-10 foot ice bridge
-5x5 ice cube (floats) great if you are underwater and need to get to surface quick, create ice cube around your legs and let buoyancy take you up, remember SW does *not* have V component
-water current to move small boat (or ice cube)
-transport large amounts of water (frozen) in survival situation
-makeshift ice weapons
-scan for hidden objects using colored water in the form of a thin 5x5 sheet, move it around room and invisible objects will displace water
-frozen grips on wall/cliff for climbing
-move rubble by filling cracks w water then freezing to expand (may also break locks)
-create a ice sphere around your head to allow for short underwater breathing
-create ice coating on shield for sledding shenanigans
-10x5 ice covered surface, great for casting on stairs
-fill keyhole w water, keep shape, remove water, freeze, combine w prestidigitation to make "trinket" of key, unlock (buy DM drink first)

[Kane0]

Mage Hand, Mending, Message and Minor Illusion are the classics, but you also have Control Flames, Mold Earth and Shape Water which are excellent as well. Prestidigitation is sort of a catchall combination of stuff and because of that is exceedingly popular.

[Kireban]

There are a lot of ideas how to use shape water but can they really be done with the cantrip?
Seems like depending way too much on the dm fiat here...
It takes an action to control the water in one cube so it cant be done too fast, the strength of the water/ice is not defined, you cant freeze water with creatures/parts of them in it, you don't really know how the ice should interact with the water it is in, using it on locks is unpredictable...

[Eldariel]

The trick with Friends is to first use Disguise Self.

Minor Illusion can mimic any sound. The house master's voice? Yeah, you can just give any commands you want. It can also make it originate anywhere within 30' of you. It can also be anyone else's voice. Need to instigate a quarrel? Why, someone in the other table just yelled something really loud.

It makes you the world's best mimic AND ventriloquist. While also enhancing your own voice, being somatic only (so stealth-compatible; wave your hands underneath the table), AND having the whole image thing going on for it.

Allows for visual communication when silence is necessary (write in the air or whatever), allows create damning evidence that's obvious at a glance, allows creating maps and such for planning, allows replicating any map you see (so someone can draw it down), etc.

It's just the best cantrip in the game. Hell, you can create mannequins that look like whatever the hell you want. At a distance, it should pass for the real thing. Need to suggest that the lord was at the wrong lady's room? Why, create his image there and get some witnesses.

[JellyPooga]

One Cantrip that I don't think anyone else has mentioned that's a complete shoe-in for you is Dancing Lights.

Bear in mind, as a Shadow Sorcerer, you have Darkvision 120ft. This let's you operate as if in Dim Light when in Darkness and Bright Light when in Dim Light. You don't need the Light spell, because Bright Light is redundant for you, but Dim Light...Dim Light is your friend.

- Dancing Lights can give you a nice 10x80ft corridor, up to 120ft away, of dim light for exploration without taking light penalties (Disadvantage) to Perception.
- If the proverbial hits the fan, you can condense this to a 40x40ft square OR, more importantly, dictate the light in the area. Dim Light doesn't offer any penalties in combat, whether you have Darkvision or not, so unless your enemies bring their own light (bearing in mind that as a Thief, you can manipulate objects like existing torches or lanterns in the area as a Bonus Action, using Fast Hands), you can move your Dancing Lights (as a bonus action) to manipulate the penalties your opponents suffer, placing them in Darkness or Dim Light at your option (either way, you take no penalty). While they don't have to stay put, this makes this an effective element of battlefield control, allowing you to dictate (to an extent) where you want the enemy to be.
- In addition, Dancing Lights can also be used as distraction. A floating light 120ft away is sure to turn a head, allowing you to slip by unnoticed. The Dim Light of Dancing Lights is also much less obvious to an observer than a bright Torch, Lantern or Light spell, if you feel the need for a bit more light at your own position.

A much underrated spell, in my opinion.

[Asmotherion]

Utility? Well, my favorites, in that order:

Prestidigitation. Limited only by your creativity and what other cantrips can do.

Mage Hand. Beyond the obvious like Sleight of Hand, you can use it to tie ropes and make places more "accessible" or create distractions. Placing Caltrops also can work. It's a great cantrip.

Minor Illusion. See prestidigitation. Your Creativity is the limit, from concealments to misdirection there's a lot you can do.

Mold Earth. In battle, can provide a great Cover/Consealment, especially if you're a ranged combatant. You can also use it to dig traps, and arguably, ecscavate the earth under your opponent's feet.

[Tanarii]

A much underrated spell, in my opinion.
It uses concentration.

Surprisingly, Guidance is massively over-rated despite the same reason.

[JellyPooga]

It uses concentration.

Surprisingly, Guidance is massively over-rated despite the same reason.

For someone dabbling in magic, whether that's via a low-level dip into a caster class, Race (e.g. High Elf) or from Feat investment (i.e. Magic Initiate), concentration isn't so much of a cost as it is for those that have bigger and better things to focus on.

It's also worth noting in this particular case, that losing concentration in combat isn't that big a deal because the character has Darkvision anyway, so there's no penalty involved bar having to recast it.

The biggest drawback on Dancing Lights is the short duration.

[Segev]

Yeah, it's worth noting that it's 6 seconds to do about four hours of hard work. Edit: correction, according to google, it's 8 hours of hard work.I really want to like mold earth, but while I don't dispute the time you quote, here, this can be deceptive. It comes down to what the DM rules qualifies as "loose earth" and whether your campaign commonly features that as your local ground. I've seen people argue that it can't be any more pack-able than dry sand or gravel, meaning even the forest floor or the grassy plains aren't "loose earth" because they're "packed earth."

Now, if your DM lets you use it on anything that isn't stone or an interior finished floor, it can be very good. But if he's a stickler about "loose earth" being something you could scoop with your bare hands, then yes, it's still 4-8 hours of work in 6 seconds or less, but so would a cantrip that let you do your taxes perfectly in six seconds (depending on where you live and what your income situation is). Would that be a cantrip that many wizards would have IRL? Absolutely! But not all of them, because it's useful once per year unless you're going to make a living at it. (Earlier this week, though, I'd have loved to have had it.)


My issue with Minor Illusion is that I'm going to be in a lot of buildings, where a sudden item may look incredibly out of place.People often don't notice new items and objects if they're not inherently attention-getting. A box in the middle of the floor? Yeah, that's attention-getting because it's in the way in a spot that's usually clear. A door that got left open that now looks closed? Nobody will bat an eye. If you're a burglar, then illusions of items you've snatched will mean people won't bother to look for them. The keys are still on the hook, the crown jewels are still in the case, the jewelry box is still on the night stand. It's only a minute, but a minute extra before anybody notices the item missing is a minute more for you to escape in. And possibly to deflect blame. You were nowhere near it when it disappeared! OR, better, you and the owner both saw it in the owner's room and you've been with him the whole time; it was there when you both left. Somebody else MUST have taken it after you guys left the room.

The old "hiding behind a curtain" routine can be improved by making the curtain look like it's a few inches forward and comes to the floor. It's a subtle enough change that nobody is likely to notice if they weren't already looking for it.


Yeah I think I can get a lot of mileage out of shape waterJust remember that the amount of water you can move is going to be far less than you would typically carry. So carry a lot, if you can. Unless you're at sea or something.


Mage Hand, most of what I would use it for, opening doors/setting off traps, I can do with other stuff. Consequently, I'm partially convinced I can use shape water to do a majority of things one would do with Mage Hand.It's questionable whether the shapes you can make with shape water can move around enough to even nudge things, let alone lift, carry, or move them. Maybe if they float and you're having your blob of water float them around inside. Mage hand is extremely versatile, and can single-handedly (pun unintended, but gleefully exploited) defeat all sorts of traps and obstacles that normally rely on the difficulty of getting a PC to a point to push a button, pull a lever, or grab a macguffin. A small shrine trying the Indiana Jones idol-weight trap will spring when you grab the idol, but since you're at the door of the shrine when you do it, the trap doesn't hit you.


Prestidigitation, yeah I'm not playing a character that cares about that stuff, and I prefer the 60ft distance of fire expunging control flame offers.
If you encounter enough fires not of your own creation that snuffing them like that is useful, more power to you. :)

[Contrast]

It uses concentration.

Surprisingly, Guidance is massively over-rated despite the same reason.

If you're using Dancing Lights as your sole light source and you lose concentration in a combat situation that can be Very BadTM. I play in a party with a Drow so they got it for free and they used it a grand total of once. Then they realised it meant if we were relying on it for a light source they couldn't cast concentration spells during combat and its never been cast since.

Guidance is +d4 to every skill check the party makes where they're not trying to be sneaky about spell casting/aren't in a rush - in my experience that is a lot of skill checks. At low levels its effectively free proficiency/expertise to everyone for all out of combat skill checks. The reason concentration doesn't matter as much on Guidance is that there isn't an expectation it'll be used for combat purposes so the restriction matters less. Its annoying for a ranger/druid who may be trying to maintain concentration on Hunters Mark between combats I guess but otherwise not a huge deal.

[JellyPooga]

If you're using Dancing Lights as your sole light source and you lose concentration in a combat situation that can be Very BadTM. I play in a party with a Drow so they got it for free and they used it a grand total of once. Then they realised it meant if we were relying on it for a light source they couldn't cast concentration spells during combat and its never been cast since.If you have Darkvision yourself, Dancing Lights is only useful as a means to divert enemy that don't have Darkvision into areas you want them to be in if they don't have their own light source or you've effectively removed their light. As a combat spell it's so niche as to be almost useless in most cases, but as a utility it's great because it doesn't provide bright light; it's less noticable and can be manipulated a lot more easily and usefully for exploration and distraction than the Light spell or a torch/lantern.


Guidance is +d4 to every skill check the party makes where they're not trying to be sneaky about spell casting/aren't in a rush - in my experience that is a lot of skill checks. At low levels its effectively free proficiency/expertise to everyone for all out of combat skill checks. The reason concentration doesn't matter as much on Guidance is that there isn't an expectation it'll be used for combat purposes so the restriction matters less. Its annoying for a ranger/druid who may be trying to maintain concentration on Hunters Mark between combats I guess but otherwise not a huge deal.

I've always found myself thinking Guidance is great - a must have - and then simply not using it. Casting a spell during conversation is always suspicious, so it's all but useless in Social encounters; the act of casting a spell before making any kind of social check, unless you can do it surreptitiously, draws more attention to the spell than the check, which changes the parameters of the check, often rendering it useless1. It's a really niche effect in Combat, so is practically useless there too. Which leaves Exploration. Great!...Except many, if not most things you want to do in an Exploration encounter are long duration, repeated, reactive or sneaky...which makes Guidance useful for, well, not a lot unless you want to be the nutter muttering the same spell to himself continuously, repeatedly, for minutes or even hours. Hardly a heroic image!

1For example:
- Guidance before making a Bluff check against a Guard;
You: "Casts spell"
Guard: "Hey, what was that spell you cast?"
You : "Nothing. Uh, say, I'm just an innocent merchant"
Guard: "It wasn't a Charm spell was it? Mage."
- Guidance before a Persuasion check to haggle
You: "Casts spell"
Merchant: "Uh. Get out"
You: "Why? It was just a, uh...I'll give you 50 silver?"
Merchant: "points to sign saying *No Charms*"
You: "It wasn't a Charm spell!
Merchant: "Yeah, right. Out"

[Segev]

Guidance is most beneficial to your party rogue. Any time you're making a skill check because you're attempting something you know is tricky, it's useful. Lock-picking, trap-searching/disarming, climbing, leaping across chasms, appraising loot... those all are excellent times to use it.

It also has a one minute duration, so if you're going into a social situation, you can cast it before walking in, and then get to talking. It may only be your very first impression roll, but it can't hurt.

[Contrast]

Snip

Oh I agree its of questionable usefulness for many social situations (falling under the 'need to be sneaky about spellcasting' category). You'd really need to cast it round the corner and then nip in and try and make the conv/check within a minute which is always gonna be rough.

I feel like I must be having a different table experience to a certain extent though. I agree that Guidance often doesn't get used on a lot of checks but my experience is that this isn't because it couldn't get used on a lot of the checks but rather the player with Guidance doesn't want to be constantly injecting themselves into other peoples moments when their character is doing something by interrupting and saying 'I cast Guidance!'.

The point is moot in this case as OP said they weren't going Divine Sorc so no cleric cantrips on offer :smallbiggrin:

[Eldariel]

IME Guidance is great. Whenever party gets to dictate when stuff happens, you can just prep and then go to wherever you need to Hide or Open Lock or Jump or Swim or Intimidate a prisoner or Persuade a prisoner or Investigate a room or whatever. Got a handy corner or dark alley before the gate? Create a distraction (Minor Illusion generally suffices) and cast it before entering to barter/lie/whatever.

It takes some effort but I've found it to often be usable in most non-combat circumstances and sometines the duration carries over to combat if you cast it constantly while moving. Best on characters dipping casting classes as their Concentration is basically never spoken for outside combat.

[elyktsorb]

I'm taking Shadow mainly for the darkvision, halfling after all. And I don't need much for my main skills which are 10+ at this point

Guys I already said I'm not going Divine Sorcerer, Guidance isn't even on the table for me.

To that end I have been rethinking Mage Hand, just because I might be able to use it in certain situations, and because I've decided not to take Control Flame.

[daremetoidareyo]

I've used shape water twice now. Once to seep water between the cracks of an oaken door, and freeze it to make it smashable.

And once to make a key of ice for a lock.

[Tanarii]

Guidance is +d4 to every skill check the party makes where they're not trying to be sneaky about spell casting/aren't in a rush - in my experience that is a lot of skill checks. That should be very few. If you're not in a rush, as long as their are no consequences for failure, it should be covered by the automatic success rule. Just take 10 times as long and succeed.

There are some times when something has consequences for failure and things are not in a rush. But IMX they're relatively uncommon. What's far more common is DMs calling for unnecessary non-time-dependent checks. So sure, if you have a DM that likes those, then Guidance has more value.

[Philsco]

My 3 Arcane Rogue / 1 Sorcerer has this as follows:

Arcane Rogue
Cantrips: Mage Hand, Message, Prestidigitation
Lv1: Sleep, Silent Illusion, Charm Person

Sorcerer: Shape Water, Mold Earth, Control Flames, Chill Touch
Lv1: Burning Hands, Ice Knife

I'm very happy with this setup.

And my reason for Silent Illusion is because you can use it to create a facsimile of your party poorly sneaking together as a group to gather some guards' attention, or to create fake allies around you to make the enemy think there's more to your party than there really is. That alongside Prestidigitation to create some clanking or mumbling or grunting noises can help to pull aggro or to greatly bolster your intimidate checks.

[Segev]

That should be very few. If you're not in a rush, as long as their are no consequences for failure, it should be covered by the automatic success rule. Just take 10 times as long and succeed.

There are some times when something has consequences for failure and things are not in a rush. But IMX they're relatively uncommon. What's far more common is DMs calling for unnecessary non-time-dependent checks. So sure, if you have a DM that likes those, then Guidance has more value.

Even if they are in a rush, it's only one more action, and it's possibly by a different character. Guidance is best in the hands of the cleric who's helping the Rogue or other character(s) out, not on the character self-buffing.


You want a truly useless one: resistance. It's like guidance, but for saves! Except that saves almost inevitably come unexpectedly, so you can't very well prep for them within a minute before they pop up.

[Chronos]

The one use case I can think of for Resistance is when the rogue is about to try to disarm a tricky trap. If she fails, it'll likely trigger, and make her need to roll a saving throw.

Except that in that situation, Guidance is even more useful.

Now, if Resistance had, say, a 1-hour duration instead of 1 minute, then it might be useful. Whenever you're not concentrating on something else between combats, just keep it up continuously on your squishiest party member. When combat breaks out, if they need to roll a save before it comes time for you to concentrate on something else, they get the bonus. If not, well, you didn't waste any spell slots on it.

[Tanarii]

In theory, resistance is best used if you've got an ally under a a control effect and they get a save to escape.

Flipping it around to a DM perspective, Resistance is useful on a Mook caster. Helping a non-mook escape from a control spell is an excellent use of a Mook's turn. (Not that this perspective helps the OP.)

[Guy Lombard-O]

I'm not going to be in urban environments, I'm going to be indoors, like, in peoples houses/castles, where a sudden new object in an area that's likely patrolled multiple times per day, would look very suspect. Or would just be liable to be interacted with by mistake. Not to mention if I need to make a distracting noise, I can likely just, throw a rock somewhere, or rig something to knock over with string. I should also mention that this is a very intrigue heavy game, so a lot of characters both allies and enemies, are more geared towards stuff like investigation.

Picking up things with shape water is easy for small things, just get a small amount of water over to the item, freeze it around the item, then use some more water to get the item floating in it, or if the item is lighter than water than just make a bowl shape around the item and float it over. Obviously this wouldn't work for very heavy items, or fragile items, but if the requirement is it being 30ft out of reach and being seen isn't an issue, then I don't see why it couldn't work. Would I be able to open a door? Probably not, maybe if it was already open I could push ice against it to open it further.

I'm trying to imagine using Shape Water for picking up something in the situation you describe.

Let's say you're in someone's manor home, since that seems big in your campaign. There's a small object on a shelf across the room that you want. For some reason, you aren't just walking over and grabbing it off that shelf. Is there some trap your worried about? Are there people between you and the object? Is it too high up to grasp? A courtyard between you and it? Don't know, but bodies of water crossing the floor over to it might be pretty noticeable.

Anyway, you plan to encircle it with water, freeze that water, then use more water to float it over to you. Can I ask where you're getting all that water from in this house? If the object is not sitting upon the ground, it sounds like we're talking about a LOT of water. Way more than just a flask or two. Shape Water doesn't let you create water, just change flow and such. So, I hope that room has a fountain either in it or nearby.

How long do you have to get this item? A fair reading of the spell is that you can only move the water 5' in a round. You need multiple "bodies" of water to make this work (1 to freeze, 1 to float). The DM might argue that "up" as a direction of water flow isn't allowed. Or at least that the water must be supported by more water below it, if it's more than 5' above the floor. And then you're talking about 3 or more bodies of water, aren't you? The cantrip only allows for 2.

The item you want is also going to get encased in frozen ice. Is that going to damage the object? If it's delicate, will it shatter? If it's a plant, is it a "creature"? If so, the water won't freeze. If not, the flash-freezing might kill it.

Practically speaking, I just don't see this working out. I'd far rather have Mage Hand to get the thing, and Minor Illusion to fake the theft (as Segev mentioned). Shape Water definitely has it's uses, but this doesn't sound to me like one of them for most instances. But you know your DM, if he's going to just hand wave such things then you do you.

[Honk]

Shape water to make a rough key from a waterskin sounds good, but some of the statements are a bit wild in its uses. The water needs to be present and 5 cubic feet are roughly 1,7ft each side, weighting 141kg (320lbs). Wheeling around a waterbarrel seems kinda crazy.
Bridges, suffocating enemies goldfish style, blocking walkways with giant iceblocks, grappling tentacles or opening doors/windows from the outside all kinda far out

Mending is great to fix chains, keys, ripped and stabbed clothes

Same goes for prestidigitation, all the fun to be had messing around and causing trouble.

Mage Hand also useful not to get into the way of traps, waiting guards, pulling levers opening doors.

Minor illusions has great value as fast cover, emergency distraction while failing to sneak. But the same 5 cube feet limitations exists, so no disappearing tunnels. Small chests or a chair is stated as maximum, so maybe you can cower under your cloak and pretend to be a garbage pile in an alley, but pretending the door is still closed, no way.

Friends is more of an one time thing, not sure if it’s wise to mess with NPCs, better have a face in the group with cha 20

Mold earth is also only 5 cubic feet, so yes, if you‘ll need to dig a small ditch, but spending three hours straight to camp roman style? The mage should learn leomunds hut or something...


Sooo imo for a thief as fun and fluff RP cantrips 1.presti thingi 2. mage Hand 3. Illusion

[Chronos]

Most ordinary doors fit just fine into a 5' cube. "Small chest or a chair" isn't the maximum; those are just examples of things that fit into a 5' cube. You don't need to "cower under your cloak" to fit inside an illusory object; even for most Medium characters, just crouching a bit will be enough, and Small characters don't even need to do that.

And Move Earth is a 5' cube per casting. It's a cantrip, so you can cast it every round. Spend, say, ten minutes on it, and you can get 500' worth of trench with an earthen wall behind it. That's an awful lot of fortifications for ten minutes' work.

[Tanarii]

Most ordinary doors fit just fine into a 5' cube.Tht takes some serious spacial acrobatics. Most people read "5ft cube" and think flat along the ground orientation. Aligned with their mental battlemat grid.

[KorvinStarmast]

To that end I have been rethinking Mage Hand, just because I might be able to use it in certain situations, and because I've decided not to take Control Flame. It's handy. There are any number of things you can do with it that only present themselves during an adventure. My brother's wizard used the heck out of that during our first campaign.

[Wizard_Lizard]

I like prestidigitation because clean clothes and free flavouring for food is nice.

[RedheadDev]

The trick with Friends is to first use Disguise Self.

Minor Illusion can mimic any sound. The house master's voice? Yeah, you can just give any commands you want. It can also make it originate anywhere within 30' of you. It can also be anyone else's voice. Need to instigate a quarrel? Why, someone in the other table just yelled something really loud.

It makes you the world's best mimic AND ventriloquist. While also enhancing your own voice, being somatic only (so stealth-compatible; wave your hands underneath the table), AND having the whole image thing going on for it.

Allows for visual communication when silence is necessary (write in the air or whatever), allows create damning evidence that's obvious at a glance, allows creating maps and such for planning, allows replicating any map you see (so someone can draw it down), etc.

It's just the best cantrip in the game. Hell, you can create mannequins that look like whatever the hell you want. At a distance, it should pass for the real thing. Need to suggest that the lord was at the wrong lady's room? Why, create his image there and get some witnesses.

Definitely seconding Minor Illusion. There's just so much versatility. My favorite personal use is crouching down and creating an illusion of a crate that's centered on you, a la Metal Gear Solid style stealth.

[Tanarii]

Definitely seconding Minor Illusion. There's just so much versatility. My favorite personal use is crouching down and creating an illusion of a crate that's centered on you, a la Metal Gear Solid style stealth.
You're physically interacting with it if you do that.

Of course, what that actually means will vary from DM to DM. For some you get to see through it but no one else is affected. For others everyone gets to see through it. And for thirds it no one can see through it until they make an investigation check as an action, but you know it's an illusion.

[RedheadDev]

You're physically interacting with it if you do that.

Of course, what that actually means will vary from DM to DM. For some you get to see through it but no one else is affected. For others everyone gets to see through it. And for thirds it no one can see through it until they make an investigation check as an action, but you know it's an illusion.

I've honestly never given thought that some people might interpret that line differently, but I guess it's open to ambiguity. I've personally always ruled it as physical interaction only reveals the illusion to the person specifically interacting with it, so as long as people you're hiding from don't see you crouch into the illusion, it's basically free obscurement.

[Chronos]

My most recent character was a gnome, so I didn't even need to crouch. Though I think I ended up using bushes and boulders more often than crates.

[Eldariel]

You're physically interacting with it if you do that.

Of course, what that actually means will vary from DM to DM. For some you get to see through it but no one else is affected. For others everyone gets to see through it. And for thirds it no one can see through it until they make an investigation check as an action, but you know it's an illusion.

Well, you can crouch inside and only create an illusion containing the outlines; that way you never interact with it.

EDIT: Or if you need it to be placed forward from your current position, you can leave one side open and the illusion hollow for easy entry. Of course, if you have guards passing you, you do need to create the whole crate in your current position.

EDIT#2: After you are inside you can even recast the spell (S only, no sound) to create the exact same crate just with the missing front. This way you can also keep it going for over a minute if need be.

[Segev]

My most recent character was a gnome, so I didn't even need to crouch. Though I think I ended up using bushes and boulders more often than crates.

Another fun thing with gnomes - which are easily under 3 feet tall - is that you can use Tenser's floating disk as an umbrella or hat, and even as at least partial cover against attacks from things coming from above (though you do need to discuss that with your DM).

[Deathtongue]

Depending on the surrounding temperature, atmospheric pressure, and how cold the DM rules you can make ice (I'd rule not allowing -200'C is reasonable, but disallowing -70'C is not reasonable) you can use Shape Water to very quickly freeze over larger bodies of water using the magic of the enthalpy of condensation. Not instantaneously like you're Mr. Freeze or something, but we're talking hours.

Shape Water has also come in handy for when we needed to push large objects a significant amount of distance. Good luck getting enough grease or oil to push out an altar that weighs a half-ton, but you can definitely get enough ice.

Shape Water can be used to make impromptu 1-person bridges if the water isn't moving too quickly.

I've had one DM allow me to use it like it's used in the Golden Sun Series -- a jack where you slide water under the object of concern and then freeze it. With enough patience and freezing cycles, you can lift up a much heavier object. I also used Shape Water like that to lift up (using bouyancy) some underwater lagan.

Ice is really hard to make in the pre-industrial world. Mold Earth can always be replicated with some elbow grease and time, but a 5 foot cube of ice is definitely worth having. At least if your DM remembers their junior high chemistry.