Extended Proficiency system

[paladinn]

I'm working on a hybrid OSR/5E game, and am considering extending the use of the 5e proficiency matrix. Currently it grants a character a bonus, starting at +2 at 1st level, for any proficient saves, skills and attack rolls. I would like to extend this two ways:

1. Create a "common" set of "bonuses" for non-proficient saves, skills and rolls. This would be taking the current proficiency progression at a -2. So there would be no "common" bonus until 5th level. Not sure if I would apply this bonus across the board or only to saves. I just think that higher level characters should have more success in non-proficient areas (especially saves) than 1st level characters.

2. Modify the "Expertise" idea to, instead of granting advantage, allowing a +2 to the current matrix. So a 3rd level character who had expertise in a skill or a weapon would get a +4 bonus instead of +2.

3. Further adding another rank of "Master", which would grant a +4 above the current matrix.

4. Bringing back a version of the Weapon Focus feat/ure that would allow an increase of one rank each time it's taken. On a given ASI, a fighter or rogue could increase a proficient weapon or other skill to Expert rank, or even Master rank. Since this is a feat, it shouldn't be OP since it would take the place of an ASI. A 20th level fighter with Master proficiency would have a +10 bonus, making him/her a truly focused fighter.

A similar feat could work for other skills as well; so a rogue could become a Master of stealth, etc. A character who does not have proficiency with a given skill or weapon could use this to gain proficiency, but not Expert or Master rank. So Gandalf could use Glamdring well without hurting himself:)

Is this a good/bad concept? OP or UP? Should I use different bonuses? I think it could be beneficial in a 5e game as well.

[MrStabby]

I could see it working... but it has to be in the context of a broader system.

What role do you see skills playing? Is this a relableing of proficiency levels? What do you see big bonusses giving? What role do you see fo characters with a low bonus in the presence of someone with a big bonus? How do you see this impacting NPCs? What, if anything, will be done to rebalance abilities now that more people are likely to pass? How will this interact with bounded accuracy - many low lwvel spellcasters being less of a threat to a high level party? Will there be something else to help differentiate between classes?

[djreynolds]

This is a start. It's good.

As a caster gains spell slots... A martial gains more proficiency slots.

[Mellack]

2. Modify the "Expertise" idea to, instead of granting advantage, allowing a +2 to the current matrix. So a 3rd level character who had expertise in a skill or a weapon would get a +4 bonus instead of +2.

3. Further adding another rank of "Master", which would grant a +4 above the current matrix.
.

Expertise doesn't give advantage. It gives double proficiency bonus. Your change is equal to what they get now at levels 1-4, and makes them weaker above those levels. They would then have to spend another ASI to get master to keep up with the current progression. Was that your goal?

Also, are you now allowing them to take it to get that bonus to attack rolls? If so, that is going to make the -5 to hit/+10 damage feats even stronger, and they probably don't need that.

[paladinn]

My goal is two-fold: first, to allow higher level characters to succeed at things (especially saves) that currently they cannot. A character without a proficiency in Con, for example, doesn't save any better than a 1st level character. Not sure if/how this will work with non-proficient skills.

Second, to provide a means for characters to truly excel with given skills and weapons. Right now, a character has proficiency or not. Feats can modify this, but something like a fighting style can only be taken once. If a fighter wants to be a master swordsman, s/he can do it, but at the cost of an ASI or another feat.

The Expertise concept will also allow a rogue to specialize in skills that s/he chooses, kind of like in 2e. Other classes can gain proficiency in a stealth, but only a rogue can gain Expert or Master rank.

I believe it allows another degree of customization and can empower martial characters a bit more.

[MrStabby]

Let's say you raise non-proficient saves.

This does at least one of three things:

1) it makes the game easier. PCs more likely to pass saves will do this.

2) The DM raises DC of spells to account for this. Then it is the gap between proficient and non proficient that matters. Characters are more homogenous if the gap isnt preserved and shine less in their respective disciplines.

3) if you preserve the gap by increasing both the top and bottom end of the scale AND dont increase DC AND dont want to make the game easier then to keep things balanced you either dont use multiple low level enemies and just use CR close to the party level caster monsters or, if you do use lower level caster monsters, you need larger numbers to keep them balanced, and the system loses the benefits of bounded accuracy.

[ShinyRocks]

I love the bonuses to saves. I agree that you should get better at saves as you go up in levels. A burly Fighter might be better at Con saves than a frail Wizard, and that's why they get proficiency off the bat.

But, for example, a level 20 Wizard who's been travelling the world and fighting monsters and sleeping under the stars and climbing mountain trails and so on and so on, should be better at Con saves than she was at level 1 and had just left Wizard School. She will have toughened up. It shouldn't require a feat to acknowledge that. (And there's still a place for the Resilient feats, as they give a stat bonus and full proficiency.)

I don't know about all the mechanical implications, but it just feels right to me.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Isn't number 1 just a stronger version of the bard Jack of All Trade?

[Lupine]

The idea is... decent, but I don’t think it fits with the framework of 5e.

[Mellack]

My goal is two-fold: first, to allow higher level characters to succeed at things (especially saves) that currently they cannot. A character without a proficiency in Con, for example, doesn't save any better than a 1st level character. Not sure if/how this will work with non-proficient skills.

Second, to provide a means for characters to truly excel with given skills and weapons. Right now, a character has proficiency or not. Feats can modify this, but something like a fighting style can only be taken once. If a fighter wants to be a master swordsman, s/he can do it, but at the cost of an ASI or another feat.

The Expertise concept will also allow a rogue to specialize in skills that s/he chooses, kind of like in 2e. Other classes can gain proficiency in a stealth, but only a rogue can gain Expert or Master rank.

I believe it allows another degree of customization and can empower martial characters a bit more.

I can accept the reasoning that all saves maybe should get easier as you level, however that is a pure boost to all characters. I do not think high level characters really need a power up, but that is a table choice.

Regarding wanting characters to be good with skills, this change does not do that, it just costs more to get as good. Standard expertise doubles the proficiency bonus, that means a +6 at levels 17+. Your proposed changes still give the same +6, but now requires an extra feat to get the "master" rank.

How does expertise as it currently is not allow a rogue to specialize in the skills they choose? Is there a problem with having a ranger be great at stealth?

[paladinn]

Ok, I get the issue with rogues and expertise. Let's leave that alone for now.

I'm proposing a new feat/ure.. maybe called "focus" or some such (open to suggestions).. whereby a baseline fighter or rogue can increase efficiency with a given skill or weapon over and above the typical proficiency level.

So a 5th level fighter typically gets a +3 proficiency bonus with a longsword. But if at 4th level, s/he took this "focus" feat, s/he could get an additional +2 (+5 total) with said sword. And at a higher level, if taken again, the fighter would get another +2. This would grant much more effectiveness with the longsword, but at the cost of ASIs or other feats. There would be a limit of two such focus ranks.

I would allow this as an option anytime an ASI might be gained. Which provides the following options anytime an ASI is possible:

1. a typical ASI
2. a typical feat
3. a focus rank with one weapon or two skills
4. basic proficiency with one weapon previously non-proficient. If a wizard wants to be proficient with a sword, s/he can be, but at the cost of an ASI or feat.

Of course, 2-4 are optional, as they are now.

Thoughts?

[BloodSnake'sCha]

Ok, I get the issue with rogues and expertise. Let's leave that alone for now.

I'm proposing a new feat/ure.. maybe called "focus" or some such (open to suggestions).. whereby a baseline fighter or rogue can increase efficiency with a given skill or weapon over and above the typical proficiency level.

So a 5th level fighter typically gets a +3 proficiency bonus with a longsword. But if at 4th level, s/he took this "focus" feat, s/he could get an additional +2 (+5 total) with said sword. And at a higher level, if taken again, the fighter would get another +2. This would grant much more effectiveness with the longsword, but at the cost of ASIs or other feats. There would be a limit of two such focus ranks.

I would allow this as an option anytime an ASI might be gained. Which provides the following options anytime an ASI is possible:

1. a typical ASI
2. a typical feat
3. a focus rank with one weapon or two skills
4. basic proficiency with one weapon previously non-proficient. If a wizard wants to be proficient with a sword, s/he can be, but at the cost of an ASI or feat.

Of course, 2-4 are optional, as they are now.

Thoughts?

Number 4 already have a solution

Weapon Master
Player's Handbook
You have practiced extensively with a variety of weapons, gaining the following benefits:

Increase your Strength or Dexterity score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You gain proficiency with four weapons of your choice. Each one must be a simple or a martial weapon

Number 3 can break bounded accuracy and it is not a thing you want most of the time.

[Hytheter]

I'm proposing a new feat/ure.. maybe called "focus" or some such (open to suggestions).. whereby a baseline fighter or rogue can increase efficiency with a given skill or weapon over and above the typical proficiency level.

So a 5th level fighter typically gets a +3 proficiency bonus with a longsword. But if at 4th level, s/he took this "focus" feat, s/he could get an additional +2 (+5 total) with said sword. And at a higher level, if taken again, the fighter would get another +2. This would grant much more effectiveness with the longsword, but at the cost of ASIs or other feats. There would be a limit of two such focus ranks.

Taking +2 to hit instead of an ASI for your attacking stat generally makes you mathematically worse at using the weapon, without even giving any other qualitative benefits to compensate. Then once you've maxed your attacking stat and taken your GWM/SS/whatever it basically becomes a must-have if you're trying to be optimal. Yet it's also boring, just a pure number boost. As potential feats go it really doesn't get much worse, to be frank.


4. basic proficiency with one weapon previously non-proficient. If a wizard wants to be proficient with a sword, s/he can be, but at the cost of an ASI or feat.

That's just a dramatically worse version of the Weapon Master feat which provides proficiency with four weapons and also grants +1 STR or DEX.

[Mellack]

1. a typical ASI
2. a typical feat
3. a focus rank with one weapon or two skills
4. basic proficiency with one weapon previously non-proficient. If a wizard wants to be proficient with a sword, s/he can be, but at the cost of an ASI or feat.

Of course, 2-4 are optional, as they are now.

Thoughts?

#4 is already covered by the Weapon Master Feat.

#3 the skill portion is already covered by the various feats that give expertise in a skill, plus a stat bonus. That just leaves being able to get a bonus to weapon attacks, which doesn't seem like a great idea.

[paladinn]

Is there some provision to increase weapon skill beyond proficiency level?

Should a fighter be allowed the option for Expertise with a given weapon?

[MrStabby]

Is there some provision to increase weapon skill beyond proficiency level?

Should a fighter be allowed the option for Expertise with a given weapon?

Probably not. There are things like the archery fighting style that add bonus to hit? I am not sure that more is needed. The problem is that either you give it to everyone automatically, in which case it doesn't make much difference unless you fail to increase monster AC as well. Or you give it asymetrically - which affects balance... or, you make it a choice to expend a resource on, like a feat... in which case optimised characters are pushed to taking this instead of more diverse abilities.