Demon hierarchy

[No brains]

Do demons have a hierarchy? Sources I've read largely imply that it's largely stronger demons intimidating weaker demons into obeying them, but I'm curious about the limits and caveats of that.

For example, flying demons. A demon that can fly away isn't beholden to intimidation by anything that can't follow. How can a vrock be in service to something that can't really catch and kill it?

I also wonder how cognizant demons are of mobbing a boss. Do demons understand that cooperation can bring down a boss? Conversely, do they understand that one large demon keeping peace keeps them all alive? Demons love chaos and destruction, but how willing is a demon to disrupt the power structure around it and potentially make itself vulnerable? Basically, can one demon command other demons only when it has the power to kill every other demon beneath it all at once?

Finally, can demons have friends? Can demons just like working together? Putting aside chaos and evil, maybe demons just like the cut of another's jib or recognize one has a good head on its shoulders.

How do you handle demon power structures?

[SLOTHRPG95]

How I handle it in my worlds tends to be something like this: demons don't have power structures. The chances of one demon following what another says is based on the power difference between the two, along with their current distance. A glabrezu can order a quasit to do something and reasonably expect it to follow up, as long as that "something" doesn't bring it into another layer of the Abyss, or another plane, or closer to another powerful demon that wants the quasit to stop its current task. However, the same glabrezu would only be able to get a hezrou to do something while in the same room, with no bigger demons (like a marilith) around. Hence a demon doesn't think about teaming up with its "co-workers" since it only thinks in individual terms, and doesn't really consider itself to have co-workers. Then why are demons still such a great threat to the multiverse? Because they're beings of pure destruction, and there's an infinite number of them. Intra-demon wars, and even the Blood War (from the demon's perspective) is basically the demonic equivalent of Brownian motion.

[Silly Name]

There are Demon Lords (Orcus, Graz'zt, Pazuzu...), which are fundamentally demons powerful enough to impose their rule over one or more layers of the Abyss, using their will to shape those layers. Demogorgon sits at the top, but as you said he's there by virtue of having killed the previous Demon Prince, and all the other Demon Lords conspire and plot to take his place someday.

All those titles are self-given: demons don't have the rigid hierarchy of devils and all those rules for climbing up and getting demoted. If you can take it, it's yours. If you can't keep it from getting stolen, it was never yours in the first place.

Now, if demons can have friends... Not in my games. Outsiders are the essence of their native plane made manifest, and the Abyss is pure Chaos and Evil. While Chaotic Evil characters (meaning free willed people) can certainly have friends, demons are basically forces of nature: their every instinct is to spread misery and pain, to only ever care for oneself and never uphold a promise or a deal. The very idea of following through a deal or doing something for someone else unless forced by some greater power is alien to them.

Friendship, as humans understand it, requires trust. You can't trust a demon, and no demon will ever trust you.

(In most of my settings I have rules for "ascension", which means a fiend turning to Good - the opposite of celestials falling. But the moment this happens, they cease to be a fiend, just like a fallen angel is much more like a devil than a deva)

[Wizard_Lizard]

In response as to why they don’t gang up on the demon lords... I play it that demons literally do not have the capacity to team up. Sure, they may do stuff as a group if ordered by a stronger thing, but they fundamentally only do things if not doing them would bring them great pain or inconvenience.
Just my two pence

[Yora]

Demons will obey commands when they think it's in their best interest to do so. For that, a demon in a higher position needs to be able to give both rewards and punishments. The lowest demons can be forced to obey simply with punishments, but with their large numbers there need to be a lot of stronger demons to do the punishing. Those need some incentive to serve the demon lords or they could just run away, or all jump the demon lord together.

[Silly Name]

In response as to why they don’t gang up on the demon lords... I play it that demons literally do not have the capacity to team up. Sure, they may do stuff as a group if ordered by a stronger thing, but they fundamentally only do things if not doing them would bring them great pain or inconvenience.
Just my two pence

"Like herding quasits" could be a common figure of speech among Faerunian wizards! :smallbiggrin:

But, really, a bunch of quasits has no chance against a Demon Lord in their home turf (or anywhere, really), since those layers literally obey their will - if you go against a Demon Lord in the Abyss, the ground and the air will be fighting against you as well. Stronger demons may have better chances, but as you note cooperating is quite contrary to their nature, and even if they managed to strike an alliance they know they'll sell each other out the moment it becomes convenient.

I imagine a lot of uprisings in the Abyss end when one of the conspirators snitches on the others in the hopes of getting rewarded.

[Kane0]

Like Saiyans. Stupid if you stop and consider, but at least consistently so.

[DeadMech]

I'd imagine demons would have a very difficult time organizing a revolt against any bosses they don't like (which is probably any boss) even if it was possible for a group of them to win.

Who's going to stick their neck out and make the first move and provoke the first reprisal? Who's going to trust the other guy to tell them their plan in the first place? Who's to say they wouldn't just tear each other to pieces afterward if they even succeeded trying to establish themselves as the new boss or fighting over some shiny left over in the aftermath?

It's probably pretty rare for their orderings to get shaken up without outside influence from mortals or the bloodwar providing opportunities.

Even if you can fly you probably still have a boss. You don't want to have to fly for the rest of your existence or risk someone you annoyed getting their revenge when you weren't paying attention.

[Eldan]

Not friends as such, but some demons are described as having long-standing consorts, administrators, generals and various other underlings. If they have worked together for centuries, they probably have some kind of understanding, even if they don't necessarily really trust one another.

For example, Red Shroud has built a more or less functioning city in Broken Reach that is considered safe enough for traders from outside the Abyss to occasionally risk going there. Inside the city, there's no open violence, no Molydei, no slavers. And she has a stable consort (though she did apparently have him magically lobotomized later.) And her army is somehow organized and loyal enough to have held off several attacks, including those by proper demon lords.

[No brains]

Thank you, you've all given me some points to consider.

I do wonder though about demons that are situationally stronger than demons with a higher challenge rating. But for their ability to go gaseous and escape, Yochlols technically have a losing matchup against other demons due to their reliance on poison. A Glabrezu is a solid challenge 9 with at-will darkness and truesight, giving perpetual advantage over other demons' attacks. How do those affect other demons' perceptions of them as 'strong'/ threatening?

Regarding 'demon friends', while they may not have a true friendship, I could see certain unhealthy relationships being described as 'Chaotic Evil'. I can easily see demons not actively attacking each other while they encourage each other into amusing situations of ruin.

I also think there's a strong point in demons not 'sticking their neck out' to strike at a boss. If there's a gang of Dretches, they all know they're as strong as each other and so won't fight. If a Vrock decides to boss them around, they might not conceive of collectively attacking the Vrock because there is individual favor to be won by killing the Vrock's attacker. A Dretch might care more about a short-term personal boon over a long-term collective benefit.


Like Saiyans. Stupid if you stop and consider, but at least consistently so.

I'm curious what you mean here. I know Saiyan lore gets silly, but how do you run demons similarly to this?