[3.5] Optimised Level 10 PHB Only Builds

[Thurbane]

So, if you were building a 4-5 member party, starting level 1, going up to 10, and the PHB was your ONLY resource for character creation, what would you build?

Assume magic item shopping is limited, and loot will be arbitrarily determined by the DM and the adventure(s) he is running (should still be within WBL guides though)..

Just to reiterate: nothing from DMG or MM (except the basic familiars and animal companions); nothing from the open source SRD that doesn't explicitly appear in the PHB printed copy. This means no PrCs, sadly.

I'm assuming something like Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Barbarian (or other melee type) and Rogue (or other skillmonkey type).

What would you do?

Cheers - T Yes this is inspired by the ToEE computer game :P

OK, so apparently Druid, Druid, Druid, Druid & Druid is the obvious answer.

New guideline: no doubling up on classes! :smallbiggrin:


Hypothetical / thought exercise only.

Fret not, I am not suffering under the tyranny of some DM drunk with his own power! :smallamused:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Druid, druid, druid, and...oh, druid.

Maybe with a level in rogue for one of them, although detect magic works just fine for trap-checking in later levels, and elf and dwarf work for secret doors and stone-based traps.

[edit] Druids (and wizards, and sorcerers) gain access to the MM by default, and if they craft, the DMG, as well. Can't really stop it without houseruling.

[Thurbane]

Druid, druid, druid, and...oh, druid.

I should have predicted this as the first reply. :smalltongue:


[edit] Druids (and wizards, and sorcerers) gain access to the MM by default, and if they craft, the DMG, as well. Can't really stop it without houseruling.

Then assume crafting is approved or declined by DM on case-by-case basis.

Same with familiars, animal companions, wild shape forms and special mounts.

i.e. Don't assume access to anything outside of the PHB. :smallwink:

[Gavinfoxx]

Leave the game. It doesn't sound fun and those rules are waayyyyy too restrictive.

Though, bleh. Travel/Trickery Cleric.

[Gusmo]

I would bet on cleric, druid, and sorcerer. Animal companions and familiars probably aren't a big ask, but summoning will be iffy. These classes aren't reliant on magic items or finding a source of spells to scribe into a spellbook, so that's a huge plus. Bard is also solid. A wizard will still be pretty good even if the only good spells they get are from leveling up, which in PHB-only circumstances probably makes them worse than a sorcerer. Everyone else will be much more reliant on acquiring the right magic items and/or encounters tailored to their limited abilities.

[Thurbane]

Leave the game. It doesn't sound fun and those rules are waayyyyy too restrictive.

Hypothetical / thought exercise only.

FWIW though, I've played under similar rules many times and have enjoyed myself. YMMV.


Though, bleh. Travel/Trickery Cleric.

I would bet on cleric, druid, and sorcerer. Animal companions and familiars probably aren't a big ask, but summoning will be iffy. These classes aren't reliant on magic items or finding a source of spells to scribe into a spellbook, so that's a huge plus. Bard is also solid. A wizard will still be pretty good even if the only good spells they get are from leveling up, which in PHB-only circumstances probably makes them worse than a sorcerer. Everyone else will be much more reliant on acquiring the right magic items and/or encounters tailored to their limited abilities.

Nice. :smallsmile:

[AvatarVecna]

Core-only, all druid is the clear winner. PHB only...hrm. probaboy one each of the four casters that get 9ths. If it's a five-man-band, a rogue to handle trapfinding so they don't have to waste slots dealing with it.

[Biggus]

Druid, druid, druid, and...oh, druid.


I'm curious, why would four Druids be better than, say, two Druids, a Cleric and Wizard? The latter two get lots of useful spells that Druids don't.

[Maat Mons]

The level cap of 10 is plenty high enough that straight-classed Barbarian, Fighter, or Paladin would be feeling very repetitive. I hate the Monk and Ranger classes in general. And I think even Rogue, the most interesting of the mundane classes, would have lost its luster.

Bard gets up to 4th-level spells at level 10, which isn't too terribly far behind the big boys. I'd take that as my 5th man.

I think I'll aim for not only different classes on each character, but also different races.



Human Cleric: Take Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) and Combat Expertise at 1st level. Then take Improved Trip at 3rd level, Combat Reflexes at 6th level, and whatever you want at 9th level. I put Human here because this is the most feat-starved build I'm proposing.

Gnome Wizard: I'm assuming the party will find a few scrolls here and there, even if you can't purchase the exact ones you want. Probably take a smattering of metamagic feats since we're not sure the DM is going to give us enough downtime to make use of item creation feats. I put Gnome here because squish casters benefit from small size, and Wizard seemed to need the Con bonus more than Sorcerer.

Halfling Sorcerer: Feats don't really matter here. I put Halfling here because squish casters benefit from small size, and I'd already decided to put the good small race on Wizard.

Dwarf Druid: Take Natural Spell at 6th level. I'm assuming the hypothetical DM will allow some Animal Companion and some Wild Shape forms, even though we can't assume any particular one will be allowed. Take Augment Summoning at some point if the DM's allowing some decent summon options. I put Dwarf here because Con is one of the few ability scores that benefit a Druid, and I'd already put the other Con race on Wizard.

Half-Elf Bard: I don't have any idea what feats a core-only Bard takes. I put Half-Elf here because, well, there weren't many choices left at this point. I didn't want a penalty to Con or Cha.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm curious, why would four Druids be better than, say, two Druids, a Cleric and Wizard? The latter two get lots of useful spells that Druids don't.Because, dude. Druids.

Like, whoa. :smallwink:

[Anthrowhale]

An all-stealth party would mean Dwarf or Half-orc for the darkvision. The lack of a magicmart means extra emphasis on avoiding the more mundane class choices.

Dwarf Rogue 1/Wizard 9 // High Intelligence, Traps & scouting
Half-Orc Cleric 10 // High Strength Fighter substitute
Dwarf Druid 10 // High Wisdom & Constitution
Half-Orc Sorcerer 10 //Accept the Cha penalty
Dwarf Bard 10 //Accept the Cha penalty.

[MicHag]

An all-stealth party would mean Dwarf or Half-orc for the darkvision. The lack of a magicmart means extra emphasis on avoiding the more mundane class choices.

Dwarf Rogue 1/Wizard 9 // High Intelligence, Traps & scouting
Half-Orc Cleric 10 // High Strength Fighter substitute
Dwarf Druid 10 // High Wisdom & Constitution
Half-Orc Sorcerer 10 //Accept the Cha penalty
Dwarf Bard 10 //Accept the Cha penalty.

You do know Darkvision is a level 2 spell right?

[Anthrowhale]

You do know Darkvision is a level 2 spell right?
My understanding is that the optimization was for levels 1-10, not just level 10. Getting ambushed at levels 1-2 because you need light sources seems suboptimal.

[Quertus]

I figured others would do Druid x5, but I'm surprised nobody said Wizard x5 - learning each other's spells is cool. Also, looting the dead bodies of d4 HP allies for free loot is cool.

Next up, Rogue x5 is good, because team "you can't see us", "we don't interact with the adventure" is fun.

No duplicates classes? … who cares? "Pick 5 out of 11" isn't a terribly interesting question, IMO. Optimizing those choices to make use of whatever random gear you get? *Maybe* interesting, but… Rogue UMD, plus Fighter-types to wield weapons & wear armor has you covered. Plus a Cleric for a) status removal, and b) "enchanting" (temporarily or permanently) your "needful things".

Random loot should, by RAW, amount to about *double* WBL. There may be some way to optimize that.

But, honestly? We all know "core only, for balance" is an oxymoron ("PHB only" certainly isn't better), and "low wealth / removing shops" kills balance, too. So… this adventure has so many red flags, I think "nothing x5" would be the optimal answer in this case :smallwink:

[Biggus]

Because, dude. Druids.

Like, whoa. :smallwink:

:smallbiggrin: Thank you, that's much clearer now...

[Twurps]

Let me see if I can come up with a less standard answer...

My answer might depend on the world/setting/kind of adventure I was expecting.
For an example: If we're going to be stuck in a big city, interesting monsters might be hard to come by, so druid loses out (a bit) more than when I expect to go tracking/adventuring in the wilderness.
conversely: A bard might be much more usefull in the city setting, as would a rogue. I would also assume it's more likely (though not at all certain) that a safe place to rest is usually closer at hand in a big city. So self supported healing is less of an issue. And I would certainly want at least 1 very versatile arcane caster.

So: city/diplomacy settings tend to:
Wizard, Bard, rogue,

Where wilderness tends to:
Druid, Cleric, barbarian.

Now I say 'tends to', in that it favors those classes more. I'm not sure it favors them enough to actually put them in over the standard picks. Also: this is only 3 picks. If we supplement the city party with druid and cleric, and then supplement the wilderness party with a wizard and a rogue, the party's end up being virtually similar after all.


Other differentiating factors might be: number of undead we're expecting (obviously favouring the cleric, but also paladin). Number of intelligent beings we're expecting to face (favoring bard amongst others) etc.

[Unavenger]

So, if you were building a 4-5 member party, starting level 1, going up to 10, and the PHB was your ONLY resource for character creation, what would you build?

OK, so apparently Druid, Druid, Druid, Druid & Druid is the obvious answer.

New guideline: no doubling up on classes! :smallbiggrin:

Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard, and if you need a fifth, Bard.

[Thurbane]

Some interesting suggestions and ideas being discussed. :smallsmile:


But, honestly? We all know "core only, for balance" is an oxymoron ("PHB only" certainly isn't better), and "low wealth / removing shops" kills balance, too. So… this adventure has so many red flags, I think "nothing x5" would be the optimal answer in this case :smallwink:

Never once mentioned the restrictions being related to balance?


Hypothetical / thought exercise only.

Maybe I should pop that in the OP.

[Sinner's Garden]

I don't think this is an optimization question, since the answer is so obvious, but more of a flavor question. For my part, I'd go Human Paladin all the way. Not something that usually draws me in, but the restrictions tell me that this isn't a game super heavy on the mechanical side, with magic items more concerned with being interesting than powerful, and in that kind of classic swords and sorcery environment, I want to be the knight in shining armor.

More importantly, I recommend playing a different game. D&D3e is one of the crunchiest games around, and if you want it light and loose, there are better options even in the specific niche that D&D fills -- that of a pseudo-medieval fantasy dungeon crawler.

[Vizzerdrix]

:smallbiggrin: Thank you, that's much clearer now...

Druids, because they have both physical and magical might. 4 druids =8 bears before any summoning. And with phb only, even your starter pet will out pace a fighter.


As for this DM gets to say what pets I can and cant get, no. The phb says what we can get when. We dont actually need the stats if the dm refuses to share the mm. It will just be something else for them to keep track of. Same with shapes, and summons.

[Quertus]

Never once mentioned the restrictions being related to balance?

Agreed, you absolutely did not.

Let me put it another way: core only has just about the worst balanced. And random treasure is all but guaranteed to be badly balanced.

Will you - and all the rest of the players - have fun if one player gets super lucky loot drops, while another never even finds a masterwork version of their weapon? (That particular scenario turned my brother off of even a one player crpg).

I, personally, am fine with the "not!Thor and the Sentient Potted Plant" level of imbalance… when the players went into the game with eyes open.

But would this (actual or theoretical) group enjoy such imbalance being thrust upon them? That's the big concern I have with this setup - it violates 3e expectations, in numerous questionable ways.

(EDIT: and, if your only anti-X gets X'd, you cannot un-X them. Ever.)

If the group were game for it, I would likely aim for 3 Fighter types, a Cleric, and a Rogue (or Bard). Maybe replace 1 Fighter with a Wizard named Kenny, who gets replaced every time his d4 HP and 10 AC fail him again for the last time.

[Thurbane]

Agreed, you absolutely did not.

Let me put it another way: core only has just about the worst balanced. And random treasure is all but guaranteed to be badly balanced.

Will you - and all the rest of the players - have fun if one player gets super lucky loot drops, while another never even finds a masterwork version of their weapon? (That particular scenario turned my brother off of even a one player crpg).

I, personally, am fine with the "not!Thor and the Sentient Potted Plant" level of imbalance… when the players went into the game with eyes open.

But would this (actual or theoretical) group enjoy such imbalance being thrust upon them? That's the big concern I have with this setup - it violates 3e expectations, in numerous questionable ways.

(EDIT: and, if your only anti-X gets X'd, you cannot un-X them. Ever.)

Those are all perfectly cromulent concerns and observations.

My only counterpoint would be there is no right or wrong way to play D&D, only what suits a specific table. If everyone has agreed to house-rules and/or restrictions and stipulations, AND (most importantly) is enjoying the game (players and DM), then that is all that really matters. Heck, if everyone is happy to do it, you could run an all Commoner game where ability scores are rolled on 3d6, in order. :smalltongue:

I've played many core-only games with restrictions virtually as tough as what's in the OP, and I was generally happy to do so.


If the group were game for it, I would likely aim for 3 Fighter types, a Cleric, and a Rogue (or Bard). Maybe replace 1 Fighter with a Wizard named Kenny, who gets replaced every time his d4 HP and 10 AC fail him again for the last time.

Cool. :smallsmile:

[AvatarVecna]

I don't think this is an optimization question

*glances at thread title*

[Thurbane]

*glances at thread title*

I can see his point, though. I have put a few hurdles in the way, especially by asking for options other than an all Druid party :smalltongue:

[AvatarVecna]

I can see his point, though. I have put a few hurdles in the way, especially by asking for options other than an all Druid party :smalltongue:

Oh yeah. Like, there's basically two kinds of answers to this question from an optimization standpoint, and they've both already been posted. Even without access to all the tricks outside core, even without access to the core tricks that depend on DMG/MM access...casting is just super-good.

[Gusmo]

My only counterpoint would be there is no right or wrong way to play D&D, only what suits a specific table. If everyone has agreed to house-rules and/or restrictions and stipulations, AND (most importantly) is enjoying the game (players and DM), then that is all that really matters. Heck, if everyone is happy to do it, you could run an all Commoner game where ability scores are rolled on 3d6, in order. :smalltongue:

I've played many core-only games with restrictions virtually as tough as what's in the OP, and I was generally happy to do so.




I tend to agree. If the DM is a good storyteller I'll put with damn near any BS restrictions. This also why I worded the last sentence of my previous post carefully, so as not to imply a barbarian, rogue, monk or anything else would be 'wrong' in some way. More limited characters and a more limited party will still have fun with the right DM, but those limitations also might make it harder for the DM to do their job, because of the party limitations they need to work with.

[Rebel7284]

1. Wizard or Sorcerer: Arcane spells are the most powerful effects in the game. I prefer Wizard since the earlier spell access is so amazing, even if you might end up with slightly less spells depending on the random scroll/enemy spellbook drops.
2. Cleric: Access to the second most powerful, but arguably even more useful list. Condition removal is pretty important for an adventurer, but of course that's only the tip of the Cleric iceberg.
3. Rogue: While there are spells to replace some skill checks, especially with the PHB limitation, it's much more reliable to have a full character dedicated to this role.
4. Druid: Redundancy is important, and the Druid can fill in for the wizard and cleric due to a flexible spell list, can support the rogue with scouting/infiltration stuff, and help provide front line pressure with the Animal Companion/Summons.

[vasilidor]

in a PHB only game (which I have not done since the PHB stopped being the only book for players) with what I know now, a DM saying PHB only would raise so many red flags. so, sorcerer with eschew materials and the best save or die/suck spells in the game, a cleric focused on damage prevention, a druid focused on summon natures ally (my highest spell slots dedicated to summoning), a wizard running utility, and a bard with a single level, maybe two levels for evasion, dip in rogue.
the wizard would use all of his feats on spell mastery. all of them. because DM's who like to run PHB only games these days are like that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Honestly, the role of trapfinder/doorjockey should be a hireling in most games, as should the dedicated healer, unless someone specifically wants those roles. Having to be forced to spend large amounts of resources to do something you don't want to do is pretty anathema to enjoyment, in my experience, especially given how narrow those focuses are and how much effort is often needed to be put into them to be effective.

[Elkad]

5 classes? Druid, Wizard, Cleric, Sorc, and Rogue/Bard(2 levels of bard to get CLW and Silent Image). Rogue will be highly dependent on the casters to be functional.

Random-ish loot instead of magic marts just raises the value of the bear and both imps, as they get hand-me-down gear.
Same if crafting non-consumables is restricted.

Everyone takes Scribe Scroll. (and brew potion and create wand if allowed)
Rogue, Sorc and Wizard all pump UMD.
Rogue for himself, other two so their Imps can hide out invisible and spam buffs, summons, etc.

[Asmotherion]

Wizard who focuses on getting the following spells:

-Lesser Planar Binding (Needs at least 1 Magic Circle against X and Dimensional Anchor)
-Polymorph/Alter Self
-Scrying+Teleport
-Shrink Item
-Fabricate+Minor/Major Creation
-Wall of Stone
-Animate Dead
-Black Tentacles
-Solid Fog
-Dispel Magic
-Phantom Steed
-Grease
-Glitterdust
-Mage Armor+Shield
-Ghoul Touch, possibly with Spectral Hand
-Unseen Servant. Goes well for setting up traps with Shrink Item.
-Flame Arrow for a throwback when you're out of spell slots.


No need to have all of them prepared (dificult at level 10) but as long as those are in his spell list, he's able to adapt to most situations.

Hey, some of the most amazing spells are in the PHB, don't blame me XD

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Do wizard specialists count as the same class? Because a party of any combination of generalist, illusionist, transmuter, enchanter, conjurer, and necromancer sounds like a seriously powerful party at mid levels. Illusionist and conjurer for BFC; enchanter, conjurer, and necromancer for an army of largely disposable minions (including things like healers and trapmonkeys in the ranks, as well as a bard or three for buffing); conjurer, illusionist, and necromancer for debuffing; and transmuter for some fantastic buffage.

And the generalist could collect spells from everyone else (and hand them out for everyone else to learn), hang back, and take 15 minutes here and there to fix any problems that need specialty spells to overcome. And in downtime, he could create minions and use Permanent and Instantaneous-permanent spells to create things like explosive runes traps to use during adventuring.

[Asmotherion]

Do wizard specialists count as the same class? Because a party of any combination of generalist, illusionist, transmuter, enchanter, conjurer, and necromancer sounds like a seriously powerful party at mid levels. Illusionist and conjurer for BFC; enchanter, conjurer, and necromancer for an army of largely disposable minions (including things like healers and trapmonkeys in the ranks, as well as a bard or three for buffing); conjurer, illusionist, and necromancer for debuffing; and transmuter for some fantastic buffage.

And the generalist could collect spells from everyone else (and hand them out for everyone else to learn), hang back, and take 15 minutes here and there to fix any problems that need specialty spells to overcome. And in downtime, he could create minions and use Permanent and Instantaneous-permanent spells to create things like explosive runes traps to use during adventuring.

I don't think those are in the PHB. Except if you mean like, the standard "ban two schools" specialisation.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't think those are in the PHB. Except if you mean like, the standard "ban two schools" specialisation.Um... Yeah? I mean, what other classes would "wizard specializations of generalist, illusionist, transmuter, enchanter, conjurer, and necromancer" mean?

[Asmotherion]

Um... Yeah? I mean, what other classes would "wizard specializations of generalist, illusionist, transmuter, enchanter, conjurer, and necromancer" mean?

A variety of things actually:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm

or the PHB2 alternative class feature that replaces your familiar.

I thought you could mean the later, because it's in the PHB2 and could be argued as valid for this thought excercice.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A variety of things actually:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm

or the PHB2 alternative class feature that replaces your familiar.

I thought you could mean the later, because it's in the PHB2 and could be argued as valid for this thought excercice.Well, given that the thread is "PHB Only," and PHB2 =/= PHB, and UA definitely doesn't count, I don't think there's any viable way to see "specialist wizard" and come to any of those conclusions.

[Asmotherion]

Well, given that the thread is "PHB Only," and PHB2 =/= PHB, and UA definitely doesn't count, I don't think there's any viable way to see "specialist wizard" and come to any of those conclusions.

My initial point was, I thought you were derailing from the thread concept. You were not.

PHB2 is widly considered an extension of PHB, and can be argued as valid in this excercice. At the moment I wasn't sure the Alternative class features were PHB2 or not, that's all.

[Quertus]

The more I think about it, the more I think…

A) having redundant healing is advantageous, so a Druid, Bard, or even Paladin to supplement the Cleric. This is no problem, as Bard already falls under UMD, and Paladin clearly falls under Fighter type. However, I'm thinking Druid, with animal companion (and d8 HP & ability to take exotic weapon proficiency) isn't a slouch at combat, lacking only 2 BAB & 11 HP at level 10, in exchange for action economy & a disposable meat shield.

B) traditionally, I consider the Rogue to be a "Striker" role. If I edge Rogue out of the UMD spot, I'm tempted to allow it to still qualify as a combat role.

C) Kenny has all the spells. :smallbiggrin:


a party of any combination of generalist, illusionist, transmuter, enchanter, conjurer, and necromancer sounds like a seriously powerful party at mid levels.

Hooray, my "Wizard x5" idea gains traction :smallsmile:

[Marthinwurer]

How would this challenge change if the level cap was lowered? Some people have mentioned that at level 10 mundanes have been outscaled by casters. At what level would, for example, a fighter or barbarian make the cut?

[Unavenger]

How would this challenge change if the level cap was lowered? Some people have mentioned that at level 10 mundanes have been outscaled by casters. At what level would, for example, a fighter or barbarian make the cut?

The conventional answer is 6, hence the rise of E6. I would still not abandon my druid or cleric at those low levels, and would seriously consider before trading my wizard or sorcerer for a barbarian, rogue or ranger - I'll add a monk or fighter to my optimised party when Cania burns and not before.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'll add a monk or fighter to my optimised party when Cania burns and not before.Monk has a surprisingly high optimization ceiling. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial)

[Unavenger]

Monk has a surprisingly high optimization ceiling. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial)

Sure, but that allows all sources and it's rarely the actual monk itself doing the heavy lifting, so I stand by my statement.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sure, but that allows all sources and it's rarely the actual monk itself doing the heavy lifting, so I stand by my statement.Then I'll go with this one. Again. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863) The only reason it's not 100% monk is for the bonus feats, I think, since they're the only things that are actually being used from the 3 class levels that aren't monk. And there are alternatives to most of the items in Core only, although there aren't as many.

[bean illus]

Rogue, Sorc and Wizard all pump UMD.


Neither sorcerer nor wizard have UMD on their list, so only so much pumping there. Rogue with Skill Focus, Magical Aptitude, Cha 14, and max ranks hit +20 at 10th level, and +11 at 1st level.


How would this challenge change if the level cap was lowered? Some people have mentioned that at level 10 mundanes have been outscaled by casters. At what level would, for example, a fighter or barbarian make the cut?

At 7th level Clerics get Divine Power, which makes them better than pretty much any core melee. At 8th Wizards get 5ths, and their ammo begins to last all day.

I can role play rogues or archers to about 8th, but after that ...


- I'll add a monk or fighter to my optimised party when Cania burns and not before.

Actually it seems that almost nobody answered the original question, which asked for builds, not an optimized party.

Maybe it's just me, but i saw the question as 'what's an optimized Bard, Rogue, Druid, etc look like in core. Many answered 'what's the strongest class in core' or 'what's the strongest 4 classes in core'.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Actually it seems that almost nobody answered the original question, which asked for builds, not an optimized party.

Maybe it's just me, but i saw the question as 'what's an optimized Bard, Rogue, Druid, etc look like in core. Many answered 'what's the strongest class in core' or 'what's the strongest 4 classes in core'.Honestly, the answer is pretty easy, since options in Core past spells and a few metamagic/item creation feats suck pretty hard. "Take levels in a T1 class. If you're a druid, take Natural Spell."

Beyond that, it doesn't really matter, so long as you place your stat points reasonably.

[Unavenger]

Then I'll go with this one. Again. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863) The only reason it's not 100% monk is for the bonus feats, I think, since they're the only things that are actually being used from the 3 class levels that aren't monk. And there are alternatives to most of the items in Core only, although there aren't as many.

I'm interested to see how you would duplicate anything remotely resembling that level of effectiveness in core with a build even vaguely adjacent to that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I'm interested to see how you would duplicate anything remotely resembling that level of effectiveness in core with a build even vaguely adjacent to that.Well, spending 300 gp to make your body masterwork upon character creation allows a monk's unarmed strike (which "is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons") to be enhanced directly. And since unarmed strikes are just "unarmed attacks that hit," and gauntlets are considered unarmed attacks (and can, themselves, be enhanced), they can be worn, as well. The amulet of mighty fists grants enhancements, as well. All of the enhancements stack with each other, except for the enhancement bonuses, of course. This might not be as high as the linked build, but that's still a potential +23 pre-epic (+5 enhancement bonus +9 special abilities +9 special abilities), which isn't bad at all. Still grants ghost touch, throwing, and distance, as well as a rather large number of other fun enhancements, as well as the bonus hp and hardness from a +5 enhancement bonus.

The DMG allows for making X/day or at-will magic items of spells. Purchase one of polymorph. It's actually cheaper than the psychoactive skin of proteus, if the guidelines are followed. It also allows various means of mind-swapping and possession. Becoming a ghost, for instance, allows you to possess a construct in your...uh...possession. Which you can enhance instead of your own body (or lack thereof) if you choose.

So, yeah, while that build is much better than Core-only, it's only by degree, and it's not even that far off. Plus, there are a lot of options that that build is beholden to that a full-on Core-only build is not, like the inability to craft or take Leadership (and thus having non-human minions to do your crafting and also try your ghost-possession thing on). Plus a wider variety of multiclassing options, since you really don't need to take more than a few levels of monk, at most. Not that you couldn't still kick ass even despite wasting most of your levels on monk, mind you.

[Unavenger]

Well, spending 300 gp to make your body masterwork upon character creation allows a monk's unarmed strike (which "is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons") to be enhanced directly. And since unarmed strikes are just "unarmed attacks that hit," and gauntlets are considered unarmed attacks (and can, themselves, be enhanced), they can be worn, as well. The amulet of mighty fists grants enhancements, as well. All of the enhancements stack with each other, except for the enhancement bonuses, of course. This might not be as high as the linked build, but that's still a potential +23 pre-epic (+5 enhancement bonus +9 special abilities +9 special abilities), which isn't bad at all. Still grants ghost touch, throwing, and distance, as well as a rather large number of other fun enhancements, as well as the bonus hp and hardness from a +5 enhancement bonus.

The DMG allows for making X/day or at-will magic items of spells. Purchase one of polymorph. It's actually cheaper than the psychoactive skin of proteus, if the guidelines are followed. It also allows various means of mind-swapping and possession. Becoming a ghost, for instance, allows you to possess a construct in your...uh...possession. Which you can enhance instead of your own body (or lack thereof) if you choose.

So, yeah, while that build is much better than Core-only, it's only by degree, and it's not even that far off. Plus, there are a lot of options that that build is beholden to that a full-on Core-only build is not, like the inability to craft or take Leadership (and thus having non-human minions to do your crafting and also try your ghost-possession thing on). Plus a wider variety of multiclassing options, since you really don't need to take more than a few levels of monk, at most. Not that you couldn't still kick ass even despite wasting most of your levels on monk, mind you.

So... {scrubbed} readings of the RAW and using the magic item creation guidelines as though they were hard and fast rules? If you're going to allow that, there are better things that you can do with your time as a commoner than that monk build will accomplish.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

So... {scrub the post, scrub the quote readings of the RAW and using the magic item creation guidelines as though they were hard and fast rules? If you're going to allow that, there are better things that you can do with your time as a commoner than that monk build will accomplish.Not sure how "RAW" is "{scrubbed}," but whatever you say.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry
Well, spending 300 gp to make your body masterwork upon character creation....

Can you explain how this works?

[Quertus]

Actually it seems that almost nobody answered the original question, which asked for builds, not an optimized party.

Builds? Hmmm…

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Kenny Die Faster

Human Wizard 10-
Key stats: Dex 8-, Con 8-

Feats: Craft, Craft, Craft.

Kenny's goal is to die as quickly as possible, so that he can leave his spellbook to the next Kenny. He who dies with the most spells wins!

While he's waiting for the sweet embrace of Death, Kenny takes every possible item creation feat, to further raise the party's effective WBL, both before and by his death.

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May I. Madre

Kenny's replacement, once the Kenny clan has every spell in core. May uses her WBL to invent new spells, create items outside of core, and even items that require the spells of her own invention.

She's OK with living or dieing, tbh.

------

Will B. Dunn

Human Cleric 1 / Fighter 1 / Cleric +8

Feats: exotic weapon proficient (spiked chain), Craft Wand, other crafts as needed (probably Craft Ring)
Skills: Ride, Diplomacy

Will is quite upset that the gods won't grant his preferred spells, and has gone dark side, trailing an army of undead. He probably has a level of Fighter for the extra proficiency, Ride as a class skill, and bonus fortitude for long nights of drinking.

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Trippy Hippy

Human? Druid 1 / Barbarian 1 / Druid +8 or Barbarian +8, whichever
Key stats: Str 18+

Feats: EWP spiked chain, improved trip

Trippy believes less in the "circle of life" than in the "circle of death" that is the area that they control - especially when buffed with Enlarge Person. Their Animal Companion dies more often than Kenny. They're a backup healer, and have spells to increase AoE threat.

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Stabby McBlood

Rogue 1 / Ranger 1 / Rogue +8

Feats: improved initiative, two-weapon fighting

Stabby is the group leach, feeding off the crafting, buffing, positioning, and even deaths of his teammates.

With random treasure, his 5d6 sneak attack (made at full BAB thanks to Divine Power & Ring of Spell Storing) carries the team through many fights - especially with 2 trippers (3 with wolf) in the party.

He just wants this to be a gestalt game, so he could Flurry of Sneak Attack.

-----

Toodles

Gnome Bard 10

Feats: Run, Endurance

Toodles can heal, fight (at range), buff, etc. But his most important feature is his tendency to run and hide, allowing some party cohesion in the event of what would otherwise be a TPK - hopefully, Toodles always lives to tell the tale.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Can you explain how this works?A masterwork weapon costs an additional +300 gp upon creation to grant a +1 bonus to attack rolls, and it also allows the weapon to be magically enhanced. A monk's unarmed strike counts as a manufactured weapon when beneficial, for spells and effects that improve it. Making said unarmed strike masterwork is clearly an effect that improves it, since it does the above.

Fluff it as spending money on the training or tools for training that allow you to forge your body into something like this:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/07/08/b9/0708b9168f441f2f4051264bd5f32bcf.jpg

[Unavenger]

I would point out that "Effect isn't specified so everything is an effect" is not only not specified or even really supported anywhere in the rules but the same leap of logic behind IHS-the-Sun. Once you're on that level with the rules, every single action is going to be nitpicked to oblivion.

[bean illus]

I was thinking that if stealth/scout was needed, a halfling rogue/wiz would work.

Rogue 2/ Wizard 3/b
Darkvision, invisibility, rope trick, knock, reduce person, detect magic ...

Synergize Int, Dex, size/AC, and dump Str.

Skill focus and max UMD, Scribe Scroll ...
UMD at level +10, and Hide at level +16, face/etc.

He doesn't bring pain, but does avoid it for the party.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I would point out that "Effect isn't specified so everything is an effect" is not only not specified or even really supported anywhere in the rules but the same leap of logic behind IHS-the-Sun. Once you're on that level with the rules, every single action is going to be nitpicked to oblivion.Is it really a "leap in logic" for a character who spends resources on training his body to be considered of superior quality to someone who doesn't? Because I can tell you that in real life, this happens all the time.

I mean, conditioning training and bodybuilding are definite things that happen, and having the proper training and equipment makes such things much easier.

And it's not like it's at all impossible to add nonstandard effects to unarmed strikes. You can cast both magic weapon and magic fang on monk unarmed strikes, and there are multiple ways to add magic weapon effects to unarmed strikes, as well. Just look at the kensai and psychic weapon master PrCs. (Although the latter does require a way to transform one's body into crystal, which isn't at all impossible.)

Plus, "unarmed strike" is even defined as a weapon in-game along with the other weapons, and nothing anywhere calls out unarmed strikes as being unable to be made masterwork. As such, general rules apply. And any weapon can be made masterwork during creation. All you have to do is spend the time and effort in making it that way. Unless you're saying bodies can't be created? Or that some people don't have much more highly honed bodies than others? Because I can tell you that those suppositions aren't true at all.

[edit] Regardless, we're getting way off topic, here.

[Gusmo]

From the tone of the OP I suspect masterwork body weapons are going to receive zero consideration in this thought experiment. Even a self contained solution where you're making your own equipment using all your own abilities and spells isn't a given, it sounds like. Because a third party crafting (unless a teammate is devoted to it), you can't assume access to any particular enchantments for weapons - for a monk's body or fighter's swords. An optimal configuration on the open market is even more out of reach. I think one of the overall goals of the OP might be avoiding WBL optimization.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

From the tone of the OP I suspect masterwork body weapons are going to receive zero consideration in this thought experiment. Even a self contained solution where you're making your own equipment using all your own abilities and spells isn't a given, it sounds like. Because a third party crafting (unless a teammate is devoted to it), you can't assume access to any particular enchantments for weapons - for a monk's body or fighter's swords. An optimal configuration on the open market is even more out of reach. I think one of the overall goals of the OP might be avoiding WBL optimization.Unfortunately, that pretty much leaves all the low tier classes completely dead in the water.

More than they already were, that is.

[Gusmo]

I will say that's one of the reasons I love the Tippy thread you linked, and others like it. So many mundane versus caster threads wind up with people posting builds that are basically just trying to mimic the skills of their opponent, so it defeats the purpose. Edit: like this one (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?265730-The-ExFighter), where the build in the OP is really cool, but it's ultimately showcasing the power of a protean more than anything else. At any rate, the dilemma with restrictions is on full display here as well, where the restrictions most severely affect the most limited classes.

[Efrate]

Do not think you can get imps in PHB only. +3 hp maybe your beat bet.

2 Druids, Cleric, Bard, Wizard. You can replace bard with another druid if you want. Cleric are an okay face and can cast find traps. Force multiplier is nice but an additional 2 bears is better than +a few to hit. Wizard for earlier spell access than sorcerer, just grab all/most the PHB powerhouses. Glitterdust, silent image, planar binding, magic missle, magic circle, dimensional anchor, black tentacles, etc. And druids and pets ofc do the heavy lifting.

[Arkhios]

My perhaps favorite character I've ever played was a halfling barbarian/rogue, and it was in 3.5.

So, yeah. Halfling Barbarian 4/Rogue 6. With Greataxe.

Nobody expects the little guy to hit like a truck with a small greataxe, and then proceed to continuing skillmonkeybusiness.

[vasilidor]

now, taking a different approach, say for a moment this was a new dm who just wanted to keep things simple so as not to be overwhelmed, I would play a fighter/cleric. if i was all five characters i would do fighter 4/cleric 6 dwarf with a dwarven war ax, a human bard 10, a gnome rogue 4/sorcerer 6, a half orc ranger 2/barbarian 4/fighter 4 focused on a orc double ax(20 str), and finally an elf druid 7/ ranger 3 who shoots things with a bow for the most part as the pet mauls things.

[Telok]

I think you can replicate something I did once with core only. It's not great core only, but possible. Sorcerer 1 / cleric 9, elf(prof if needed)/dwarf(con & saves)/human(feat), war & whatever domains, worships a god whose favored weapon is a longbow (shortbow is OK if you have to), prime stats are str & probably dex, needs 15 wis and 11 cha, everyone always wants con. You need a buddy with Craft Wand, you want a buddy with Craft Wonderous and Craft Arms & Armor.

Your first level feat is open. Then point blank, rapid shot (feat tax), and multishot, with the war domain giving you weapon focus on the bow. At level 9 you'll have a wand of true strike, a crafted +1 compound longbow suited to your strength and beefed up with greater magic weapon, and an assortment of +1 bane arrows. Get some pearls of power too.

If you can't get bow prof with the war domain it opens up your domains to anything but restricts you to being an elf. Beware of thinking the magic domain will help with the wand, you still need the spell on your class lists. The elf domain would have gotten you divine true strike.

Your tactics are non-combat arcane spells, cleric spells & heavy armor, and tying a wand on a string to your wrist so you can alternate wanding true strike and shooting 2 arrows with one attack roll. This isn't a nova build, it does good sustained damage (better with the elf domain, a +1 collision bow, and boosted CL gmw) and runs at nearly full cleric strength. You want lots of damage boosters on your bow because you hit a lot. You don't need damage spells, so stock up on buffs, counters, and healing.

By cooperating with the crafter you won't run out of wands of true strike or wands of cure light wounds.