Reduce person abuse

[Ashtagon]

Suppose a playable race has the ability to cast reduce person on themselves only 3/day with a duration of "until you make an attack". How can this be abused?

I'm trying to make a fey race, but want to avoid any obvious game balance pitfalls.

[Heavenblade]

Well, a dragonfire adept could be awesome assuming you dont have a con penalty - you dont have to make a single attack in your entire game.

The underfoot combat feat could also work well for you (wouldnt get much mileage out of confound the big folk, though)

[Xervous]

What’s the starting size of the race?

[Kurald Galain]

A fey isn't a valid target for reduce person :smalltongue:

That said, it's a permanent minor boost to AC and decent boost to stealth for any class that doesn't make attacks; and you might be able to get a flying mount for cheaper than normal. Doesn't strike me as a big deal, as long as casting any offensive spell counts as an attack.

[Ashtagon]

What’s the starting size of the race?

It will be a Small race, at least before reduce person shenanigans.

I'm also contemplating the idea that they may be able to double-down on it, perhaps with a racial feat.

[Seto]

Yeah, person abuse is bad... We should absolutely strive to reduce it.

Seriously, as others have said, it's a good deal for scouts, spies, healers, summoners, buff-focused casters, and other classes who don't rely too much on direct attacks. Also useful for getting into spaces PCs usually can't. I don't think it would imbalance a game unless the player actively tries to think up outlandish tricks, but then again most rules or spells can be exploited in that way.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Tiny von (http://bg-archive.minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=6428.0) BigMcLargeHuge. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?132294-Tiny-Von-BigMcLargeHuge)

Doable with the Human Heritage or Human Blood feats.

[JeenLeen]

One thing to consider (and there might be a RAW answer that I just don't recall at the moment): Is a spell that does damage or requires a save, but does not have an attack roll, an attack?
That could change how good it is or isn't for spellcasters.

---

But, all in all, I don't think it'd be much abusable. Some, yeah maybe, in that you can make a build that avoids making attacks. But the boost from small size isn't itself game-breaking; even the stuff it could boost awesomely sounds fair to be awesome out without being really overpowered. Even adding to an optimized spellcaster wouldn't be a major boost (since what they already have, and it'd presumably mean not picking a race that boosts their spellcasting stat.)

[Doctor Despair]

One thing to consider (and there might be a RAW answer that I just don't recall at the moment): Is a spell that does damage or requires a save, but does not have an attack roll, an attack?
That could change how good it is or isn't for spellcasters.


I'm not sure that there is a hard and fast answer for this, although Invisibility offers some clarification, at least as far as what counts as an attack for the purposes of Invisibility.


The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

[Darrin]

I'm not sure that there is a hard and fast answer for this, although Invisibility offers some clarification, at least as far as what counts as an attack for the purposes of Invisibility.

I'd look at all the different ways you can harm your enemies without violating the definition of an "attack". Summoning other creatures to attack for you, for example, is one of the classic ways to abuse invisibility. Conjuring ice beasts and using their no-save "cold aura" for example can be a good way to "blast" your enemies with damage but without actually attacking them directly.

[Heavenblade]

If dragon's breath won't work, assuming you go with the same rules as invisibility - a proximity based buffer (someone with auras/lots of touch buffs) who has summons/one powerful companion could certainly work.

[Temotei]

Attack is defined in the Magic section of the PHB as well.


Attacks: Some spell descriptions refer to attacking. For instance, invisibility is dispelled if you attack anyone or anything while under its effects. All offensive combat actions, even those that don’t damage opponents (such as disarm and bull rush) are considered attacks. Attempts to turn or rebuke undead count as attacks. All spells that opponents resist with saving throws, that deal damage, or that otherwise harm or hamper subjects are attacks. Summon monster I and similar spells are not attacks because the spells themselves don’t harm anyone.

[Doctor Despair]

Attack is defined in the Magic section of the PHB as well.

"Harm or hamper" seems like it has a fair amount of wiggle room for the DM or player to debate on, but that's a good resource.

[Buufreak]

One thing to consider (and there might be a RAW answer that I just don't recall at the moment): Is a spell that does damage or requires a save, but does not have an attack roll, an attack?
That could change how good it is or isn't for spellcasters.

---

But, all in all, I don't think it'd be much abusable. Some, yeah maybe, in that you can make a build that avoids making attacks. But the boost from small size isn't itself game-breaking; even the stuff it could boost awesomely sounds fair to be awesome out without being really overpowered. Even adding to an optimized spellcaster wouldn't be a major boost (since what they already have, and it'd presumably mean not picking a race that boosts their spellcasting stat.)

It would take digging through years of threads, including ones involved he who shall never be summoned, but yes, by RAW, spells that do "bad things" to anyone is considered an attack.

[nedz]

Get yourself a small Air Elemental as a Familiar or Elemental Companion — now you have a flying mount with speed 100' (perfect).

[Asmotherion]

Yeah, person abuse is bad... We should absolutely strive to reduce it.


Due to your name, I imagined Kaiba saying this, and it feels sooo wrong XD

[Gruftzwerg]

As alternative idea:

How about giving them the Slight Build trait from the Kobold Web enhancement (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)?


The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.

While this is not the same as the ability you mentioned, it is a "officially balanced" racial trait. It even effects combat effectiveness compared to your ability.

Imho when I compare your ability to the Kobolds ability, i don't see any crucial abuse potential.

The slight arguable edge your ability would have is:
- being tiny lets you move through occupied squares by enemies (still provoking AoO)
And it is limited by combat start as you said.
Not such a biggy imho, since most of the time getting access to some kind of "reduce person" (permanent or magic item) is not that hard to get.

Imho go with the Slight Build or your own ability, as you see it fit.

[Ashtagon]

Being of indeterminate size (ie can change size) is a core part of this creature's identity, so that slight build doesn't really work for it.

[Gruftzwerg]

btw, while are at comprehensions with kobolds (or at least me^^):

Draconic Rite of Passage lets Kobolds take a single 1st lvl spell as SLA for 1/day with clvl = character level.

So, I really don't see your 3/day reduce person till combat start becoming problematic. Sure being tiny gives you some skill bonuses and allows you squeeze into small spaces, but how often will that break the game? Imho not so often.