How to handle: level 1 party vs level 20 NPC

[Conradine]

Another thread in this section gave me an idea: how to make funny and enjoyable a party of level 1 characters hunting a level 20 NPC?

The basic idea is this: the level 20 enemy is a criminal trying to flee the country and the PCs are the best that the local justice departement can deploy. They have many situational advantages:

- the criminal is already grievously wounded and exausted from his previous capture and captivity
- the criminal fled without any equipement, except his ragged clothes and mabye a ( non magical ) hunting knife
- the PC's have full support from the population and local militia, including hunting dogs, fresh horses, supplies , money, non magic equipment ecc.
- the PC know the area much better than the fugitive - and can deploy local guides and hunters for further help

Could that be playable?

[legomaster00156]

The best thing the party can do is turn down the job.

[H_H_F_F]

Another thread in this section gave me an idea: how to make funny and enjoyable a party of level 1 characters hunting a level 20 NPC?

The basic idea is this: the level 20 enemy is a criminal trying to flee the country and the PCs are the best that the local justice departement can deploy. They have many situational advantages:

- the criminal is already grievously wounded and exausted from his previous capture and captivity
- the criminal fled without any equipement, except his ragged clothes and mabye a ( non magical ) hunting knife
- the PC's have full support from the population and local militia, including hunting dogs, fresh horses, supplies , money, non magic equipment ecc.
- the PC know the area much better than the fugitive - and can deploy local guides and hunters for further help

Could that be playable?

I get where you're coming from, but:

A. Their still going to get destroyed, unless the NPC is extremely poorly optimized and has around 10 HP consistently, making the fight uninteresting, and more importantly:

B. The NPC is the cool guy everyone is rooting for in that scenario, in every way. They are the lone wolf underdog, using their skill and their wit to overcome their extremely dire circumstances. If this was a book, the NPC would be the protagonist. "Escape everyone and get to safety against all odds" is a super fun adventure type for a mid level campaign, and I have both played and DM'd scenarios like that. "Be everyone" is just boring. It's too much control and too little simultaneously. It's like trying to make your players DM for you - you guys give me the challenge, and I'll figure out as my cool character how to succeed.

[AvatarVecna]

https://i.ya-webdesign.com/images/transparent-reaper-gram-1.png

Size/Type: Medium Humanoid
Hit Dice: 20d4+160 (210 HP)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 30 ft
Armor Class: 22 (Dex 5, Armor 5, Deflection 2), Touch 17, FF 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+14
Attack: Scythe +19, 2d4+6 (20, x4)
Full Attack: Scythe +19/+14, 2d4+6 (20, x4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: -
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +13, Will +14
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 20, Con 26, Int 12, Wis 8, Cha 10
Skills: Listen +22, Profession (Farming) +25, Spot +22, Survival +25
Feats: Skill Focus (Profession: Farming), Skill Focus (Survival), Lightning Reflexes, Endurance, Steadfast Determination, Weapon Proficiency (Scythe), Power Attack, Improved Initiative
Environment: anywhere
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 11, apparently
Treasure: Belt Of Giant's Strength +6, Gloves Of Dexterity +6, Amulet Of Health +6, Vest Of Resistance +5, Adamantine Scythe +5, Bracers Of Armor +5, Ring Of Protection +2, 1000 gp
Alignment: True Neutral
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

[Gavinfoxx]

Why would this be fun or interesting? I swear, why do people even HAVE level 20 NPCs in their games, I can't find a compelling reason for that!

[denthor]

Ok so the party rest for the night the NPC rest for the night.

The party at full hit points morning no change except for spells maybe

NPC wounded at 2 hit points a/c 10 morning 22 hit points 3 attacks per round if a mage.

2nd night party no change NPC 42 hit points. Now an party of 5

14 fighter 18 constitution
14 ranger 18 constitution
10 cleric 2 spells 14 constitution
8 thief 14 constitution
8 mage 14 constitution


By the 3rd night almost no chance if one or both fighters go down. A fighter has 5 attacks a mage 2 attacks +10/ +5 at that level. Even without spells my money is on an NPC mage and average dice rolls

[Bartmanhomer]

Level 20 NPC is just too powerful for a team of Level 1 to handle.

[Afghanistan]

Why would this be fun or interesting? I swear, why do people even HAVE level 20 NPCs in their games, I can't find a compelling reason for that!

I really hate high level NPCs, but sometimes I find them a necessary evil to making the setting appear aged or pay an homage to your old players. These high level NPCs were potentially PCs at some point in their life that have survived and completed their adventure. This has been a thing since 1e. That said? I've never liked it because it just never answers the question of why these high level NPCS, especially high level arcane spellcasters like Wizards and Sorcerers, don't just use their powers to largely police and protect the world that doesn't just hinge on DM fiat.

[Kayblis]

So you have a level 20 NPC with literally zero resources, no money or gear to speak of, and completely depleted features(assuming he's not one of many many classes with at-will abilities of 'instakill below level X', like a DFA's breath weapon). At this point I ask, why have a level 20 NPC? He's barely more than a wild animal at this point, and you could achieve the same effect by giving a wolf or bear more hit dice. The whole scenario invalidates itself.

[Kraynic]

Personally, I would turn this on its head (if it fit your game world).

One of the old stories of Robin Hood and his men involved robbing a knight. He had the horse, the armor, the weapons, and so he must have land and money. But when they took him to their camp to feed him a good meal before taking all his money, he told them that all he had was what they saw, and very little coin. Due to some agreements he had made (and thought he could make good on), in not too many days he would lose the lands, his betrothed, and basically everything but his current possessions and the few coins he had on his person (which didn't amount to enough to take). Robin checked up on his story and found that he had been played by someone, and had successfully schemed to separate this landed knight from his land and (just as importantly) bride. Basically, in this case, the idea of what a knight represented to Robin and his men had been flipped, and they ended up helping him regain what he was in the process of losing.

When the party catches this high level individual, have everything (or almost everything) they have told about, and what to expect from, this individual be wrong. Don't hide it behind dice rolls (well maybe some), but have it plainly laid out that something is not jiving with what they have been told. Have him actually be held by some code, promise, or even geas/quest from not being able to interfere with whatever situation he is fleeing. Possibly have him be poisoned and near death and actually unable to mount a defense.

Now your players have some choices to make, and some real adventure to be had. Well, unless they are murderhoboing their way around, then they may not care beyond the price on his head. If you have roleplayers, that situation should set off all sorts of alarms. And you may have a recurring npc that (assuming he survives) would know the group and actually hire them to do things in the future.

[emeraldstreak]

Ego Whip/Ray of Stupidity can take out level 20 characters.

[lylsyly]

ray of stupidity is a sorc/wiz 2 spell
ego whip is a psion/wilder 2 power

[Conradine]

The PC have another significant advantage: the fugitive is not actively trying to kill them - or anyone. He goes for incapacitating / slowing / stunning his pursuers instead of killing, if not absolutely necessary. He gives up several chances to kill if he can instead flee or hide.

For example, if he defeats the PCs in a direct fight he would not slaughter them, at first. He would probably threaten them with something like:

"Don't push it. Don't push it or I'll give you a war you won't believe. Let it go."

[emeraldstreak]

ray of stupidity is a sorc/wiz 2 spell
ego whip is a psion/wilder 2 power

Level 1 wizards can cast level 2 spells via Precocious Apprentice.

Both level 1 wizards and psions can cast level 2 spells/powers from scrolls or their psionic counterpart.

[icefractal]

I mean, you could probably make this work mechanically - a highly gear-dependent NPC build that's focused on tactics they're unable to use would probably be defeatable.

However, at that point, I'd have to agree that there's not much point to being nominally a 20th level character.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's what you should maybe do in order to design encounters. Download this:

https://app.box.com/v/MonsterCompendium

And then, take your party's average level, and add 1, and limit the individual monster CR to that, at most. Then, come up with encounters where the total encounter level is no more than 3 above your party's average level. Then, make sure to look at the individual special abilities and attacks of each monster, and make sure that no lucky crit or normal use of an ability will immediately drop a player character without the party having a way to undo whatever-it-is, and also make sure that every character has a means of meaningfully engaging each monster in the encounter.

Then, after a few levels, when you have monsters and their abilities figured out, you can start adding class levels of the weak/low tier classes into the mix, and stretching what is acceptible to send at the party, especially as they start to have more magic items and more resilience.

[Vizzerdrix]

How to handle: Ask the DM what sort of shenanigans they are up to, then walk, or derail that train hard.

[Bartmanhomer]

Another thread in this section gave me an idea: how to make funny and enjoyable a party of level 1 characters hunting a level 20 NPC?

The basic idea is this: the level 20 enemy is a criminal trying to flee the country and the PCs are the best that the local justice department can deploy. They have many situational advantages:

- the criminal is already grievously wounded and exhausted from his previous capture and captivity
- the criminal fled without any equipment, except his ragged clothes and maybe a (nonmagical) hunting knife
- the PC's have full support from the population and local militia, including hunting dogs, fresh horses, supplies, money, nonmagic equipment, etc.
- the PC know the area much better than the fugitive - and can deploy local guides and hunters for further help

Could that be playable?
Have you ever thought this through? The Level 20 Criminal can obliterate Level 1 party for a second. I think a better idea if the party and criminal we're on the same equal level.

[Calthropstu]

If the escape happened that night, and he starts at 10 hp, and he has no ranks in stealth skills, and he has been kept from resting for a long time and has no abilities recharged, it MIGHT be possible. If he gets a full nights rest, it's over.

There are only a few classes that this could work with.
Barbarian (if no rage).
Fighter.
Wizard with no spells or spellbook.
Samurai with no weapon.

Any class that gets spells automatically will win this (ranger, druid, cleric, sorcerer etc)
Any class with special powers will automatically win this.

[King of Nowhere]

Why would this be fun or interesting? I swear, why do people even HAVE level 20 NPCs in their games, I can't find a compelling reason for that!

1) if the pcs can get to level 20, why wouldn't others?

2) a hero is only as cool as their villains. if their opponents are weak and lame, the heroes achievements aren't worth much.

3) suppose your party needs a true resurrection, or they need to buy a wish spell or a manual of +X to a stat. where would they buy them if there were no other powerful people around?

[Gavinfoxx]

1) if the pcs can get to level 20, why wouldn't others?

2) a hero is only as cool as their villains. if their opponents are weak and lame, the heroes achievements aren't worth much.

3) suppose your party needs a true resurrection, or they need to buy a wish spell or a manual of +X to a stat. where would they buy them if there were no other powerful people around?

Well, if they really, really, REALLY need a Miracle, than the Pope-equivalent could be an Evangelist 18 or something. Who is busy running the church. And the others won't reach 20 because they aren't the heroes of the story.

And high level villains would typically not be, you know, normal humans in a kingdom. They'd be interplanar entities, groups with lots of innate spellcasting, stuff like that. And they'd have to go to a planar metropolis to get the manuals or scrolls of Wish and truly powerful items and whatnot.

Basically, if there are a lot of high level casters running around, medieval stasis ends.

[Calthropstu]

Well, if they really, really, REALLY need a Miracle, than the Pope-equivalent could be an Evangelist 18 or something. Who is busy running the church. And the others won't reach 20 because they aren't the heroes of the story.

And high level villains would typically not be, you know, normal humans in a kingdom. They'd be interplanar entities, groups with lots of innate spellcasting, stuff like that. And they'd have to go to a planar metropolis to get the manuals or scrolls of Wish and truly powerful items and whatnot.

Basically, if there are a lot of high level casters running around, medieval stasis ends.

Hmmm.

I ran a campaign a while back with a LOT of high level wizards around. Numerous 20/10 mythic humans running a kingdom of about 180 million people where the primary occupations were arts, enchanting, government and adventuring. It worked pretty well actually. I did get criticism for nearly killing my party again and again, and my illusion fortress went over very poorly, but all the combats were truly memorable to both myself and the players. I ran it as an experimental tippyverse type of setup. The lore I have is quite expansive, the depth is pretty good and I think if I actually wrote books for this world, it would probably sell.

[Crake]

I really hate high level NPCs, but sometimes I find them a necessary evil to making the setting appear aged or pay an homage to your old players. These high level NPCs were potentially PCs at some point in their life that have survived and completed their adventure. This has been a thing since 1e. That said? I've never liked it because it just never answers the question of why these high level NPCS, especially high level arcane spellcasters like Wizards and Sorcerers, don't just use their powers to largely police and protect the world that doesn't just hinge on DM fiat.

These sorts of characters make good cameos, or the occasional wink to the camera references here and there, and shouldn't be involved with the PCs directly in any way until the PCs are actually able to hold a candle to them and stand out from the crowd... Y'know, NOT being low level characters.

One thing I think people don't seem to get is that level 11+ is considered legendary. An NPC doesn't have to be level 20 to be considered powerful or influential. "The worlds greatest assassin" doesn't have to be a level 20 assassin, maybe level 16 or hell, even level 12 is what it takes to be the best assassin out there.

Also, lets be honest, how many ACTUAL games have ended with PCs at level 20? I know for me, not even enough to fill one hand.

[King of Nowhere]

Well, if they really, really, REALLY need a Miracle, than the Pope-equivalent could be an Evangelist 18 or something. Who is busy running the church. And the others won't reach 20 because they aren't the heroes of the story.

And high level villains would typically not be, you know, normal humans in a kingdom. They'd be interplanar entities, groups with lots of innate spellcasting, stuff like that. And they'd have to go to a planar metropolis to get the manuals or scrolls of Wish and truly powerful items and whatnot.

Basically, if there are a lot of high level casters running around, medieval stasis ends.

that's a perfectly legitimate way to worldbuild. another, equally viable way is to have a world dominated by human(oid)s, with most major villains being bad people with lots of class levels.
combat mechanics are pretty different. personally, i find combat with other high level pc-types to be more interesting for everyone.
as for medieval stasis, i never liked it, and i'm never going to use it in worldbuilding. i mentioned progress many times, and "this stuff was just invented" is my favourite excuse when the players or me want to use something new that hasn't been available until then. furthermore, do notice that medieval stasis in the real world ended without needing any caster.

back to the OP, yes, if you take a 20th level guy with no equipment, low on hit points, without spells, then a 1st level party can win the fight. heck, a 1st level party can readily win a fight with a 20th level wizard locked in a room with an antimagic field (barring some high-op tricks that would let the wizard get away regardless). but then, it's not really a fight against a 20th level character, in any meaningful sense.
it's like wondering, may i defeat usain bolt in a race if somebody had broken his legs beforehand? well, i certainly could, but there would be little point.