Where Spellcasters Are Allowed To Be Best

[Pex]

Suppose the game had the Perfect Balance you dream about between martials and spellcasters. We talk about ways to achieve this by boosting martials and nerfing spellcasters. Here lets give spellcasters some love for a change. Presuming the game was perfect, what is ok for you that spellcasters excel at that martials can not and should not equal? Martials have their own things of Awesomeness in Every Way to your heart's content. This is about what spellcasters retain as their own Awesomeness. This accepts no specific spellcaster has access to all these Awesome things, but whatever the Awesome thing is a spellcaster has it.

Some ideas:

Transportation - The spellcaster excels at getting the party to locations as easy and as fast as possible at level appropriateness.

Healing - A staple necessity of the game, the spellcaster heals the party quickly to move on. This includes removing conditions.

Crowd Control - The spellcaster can handle 4+ enemies at once. This doesn't necessarily mean killing them all in one spell (high level spells for low level mooks ok), but because the party is outnumbered the spellcaster keeps many bad guys busy so the party can deal with easier to manage numbers and/or make the terrain more favorable to the party.

[heavyfuel]

Summoning / Minionmacy is one of those things that just don't make much sense without magic, so that.

[Eldariel]

Anything dealing with other planes:
- Teleportation
- Planar travel
- Summoning/binding/conjuring
- Extraplanar communication

Few others that come to mind:
- Distant viewing/hearing at a point in space (qualitatively different from e.g. Spyglass)
- Reshaping the world/Extremely broad area effects (it's easier to believe that a magical cataclysm destroyed an ancient civilization than even the angriest being with a sword)
- Immediately becoming something else (magical disguises, changing one's appearance/oneself into a fundamentally different kind of creature, etc.)
- Taking over another's mind or body
- Anything dealing with the soul (though a material such as 3e Thinaun can partially bridge this gap) - this includes resurrection, destruction of the soul, trapping the soul, storing the soul for easy resurrection, interrogating the soul, etc.
- Creating sentient creatures (undead, golems, etc.)
- Creating matter/energy (often ties back to planes and tapping into parallel planes)
- Altering the flow of time
- Creating planes


In short, I think I can mostly abbreviate that down to:
- Planes
- Creation
- Souls
- Extreme physical/spiritual alteration
- World-scale effects


Things you can do mundanely should thus probably be something mundanes get better at than casters since casters have massive conceptual niche protection.

[JellyPooga]

Summoning / Minionmacy is one of those things that just don't make much sense without magic, so that.

I disagree. In principle, the role of "leader of many", particularly in the context of an immediate combat encounter is more within the martial bailiwick than the magical. Archwizards and Priests of Doom are frequently portrayed as having martial lieutenants to keep the masses in line.

In the context of literal summoning of creatures, yes; magic only, but I think that is better limited to the summoning of small numbers; no more than 3 or 4, for example. For the true "leadership" aspect of minionmancy, I think that should be a Martial thing.

@Pex I disagree that spellcasters should be the best at healing. I think they should probably be the fastest, but fast=/=best in this context. I think a mundane healer should have their own ability to shine in this field and not be limited to an area where a spellcasters dominate the field.

I totally agree on Travel and Crowd Control. Particularly pertaining to Crowds, one of the reasons I think spellcasters shouldn't be the "minion guy" is that they definitely should be the "anti-minion guy". A martial character deals with crowds by bringing a bunch of friends; he's the minion guy. But a spellcaster deals with them with magic; whether that be entrancing them with enchantments, entrapping them in tangling vines or tenatcles of darkness or nuking them from low orbit (it's the only way to be sure). Two different approaches to the same problem; niche protected.

I think Communication should definitely be something that spellcasters are allowed to excel at; telepathy, mind reading, animal messengers, linguistic comprehension (including with those that otherwise don't have a voice; e.g. animals, plants, rocks), inter-planar phone calls...all good stuff to keep people connected.

[Eldariel]

I disagree. In principle, the role of "leader of many", particularly in the context of an immediate combat encounter is more within the martial bailiwick than the magical. Archwizards and Priests of Doom are frequently portrayed as having martial lieutenants to keep the masses in line.

In the context of literal summoning of creatures, yes; magic only, but I think that is better limited to the summoning of small numbers; no more than 3 or 4, for example. For the true "leadership" aspect of minionmancy, I think that should be a Martial thing.

I think related mass efficiency increments/tactics/morale/buffing definitely should fall into the martial domain as well. This would actually create an interesting interplay where a martial character leading even a necromancer's undead hordes would get more out of them than the necromancer themself leading the same horde. Which, I think, is definitely how it should be. Heroes of Might and Magic-style caster-heroes are scary 'cause they Chain Lightning you while Martial heroes are scary 'cause their forces are so far above and beyond yours in power that it doesn't matter if they get hit by an occasional chain lightning.

This would of course foster natural alliances and party roles where martials would act as a force multiplier for casters and vice versa.

[JellyPooga]

I think related mass efficiency increments/tactics/morale/buffing definitely should fall into the martial domain as well. This would actually create an interesting interplay where a martial character leading even a necromancer's undead hordes would get more out of them than the necromancer themself leading the same horde. Which, I think, is definitely how it should be. Heroes of Might and Magic-style caster-heroes are scary 'cause they Chain Lightning you while Martial heroes are scary 'cause their forces are so far above and beyond yours in power that it doesn't matter if they get hit by an occasional chain lightning.

This would of course foster natural alliances and party roles where martials would act as a force multiplier for casters and vice versa.

I heartily concur.

[stoutstien]

IMO in a perfect system I think spells should focus on buff/debuffing, mass soft CC and long duration/ non immediate utility.
I would love that iconic spells did something more than damage and worked with more martial characters. Something like fireball dealing less damage but failed saves left an effect that a fighter/barbarian could capitalize on.

[Man_Over_Game]

I think that teleportation is definitely something potentially within the martial's domain, either as supersonic speed or as a supernatural means of self-definition. Shifting across dimensions is just moving along a supernatural axis, and martials are generally the masters of mobility.

Heck, it even makes sense in the DnD universe, where your location in the cosmos is often defined by your alignment and force-of-will (not so much in 5e, but even resisting a planar effect is based on Charisma saves), so someone that was overconfident could - potentially - phase themselves onto another plane, or at least another location on the same plane. This is kinda how Planescape worked (believe in something hard enough, it became true). Note that both the Eldritch Knight and Horizon Walker implement means of casual teleportation into their fighting styles.

Additionally, the same could hold true for powers utilizing Force or Telekinesis.

[JellyPooga]

I think that teleportation is definitely something potentially within the martial's domain

I...tend to disagree, but that is why I would also differentiate between Travel and Mobility. Spellcasters should be best at Travel; long-distance teleportation, flight and planar travel. Martials should be best at Mobility; short distance speed, ability to traverse dangerous or difficult terrain, running, jumping, climbing trees.

[Man_Over_Game]

I...tend to disagree, but that is why I would also differentiate between Travel and Mobility. Spellcasters should be best at Travel; long-distance teleportation, flight and planar travel. Martials should be best at Mobility; short distance speed, ability to traverse dangerous or difficult terrain, running, jumping, climbing trees.

There's a lot of redundant design space in there. Most things that aren't "Teleport to another part of the world/universe" can functionally be solved by a martial doing the same thing at superhuman extremes.

Get a cross a canyon? Jump/Teleport.
Avoid an explosion? Evade/Teleport.
Surprise an enemy? Move quickly/Teleport.

I'm just saying, any teleporation that only affects yourself and requires vision isn't really that far off mechanically from a superhuman moving really fast, and I'm not sure if it's fair to restrict Martials from having powers that put them on the same level.

Why shouldn't martials be allowed to jump a 200ft gap? Because it's unrealistic compared to teleportation?

[Kireban]

The answer is- they don't.
Players don't like that spellcasters can do anything better than the martial classes, and it doesn't matter that it demands the use of limited daily resources.
Your question, just like the daily rants about how screwed martial classes are, reinforces it.

Supporting the martial classes is the only option for spellcasters that wont be frowned at.

[JellyPooga]

There's a lot of redundant design space in there. Most things that aren't "Teleport to another part of the world/universe" can functionally be solved by a martial doing the same thing at superhuman extremes.

Get a cross a canyon? Jump/Teleport.
Avoid an explosion? Evade/Teleport.
Surprise an enemy? Move quickly/Teleport.

I'm just saying, any teleporation that only affects yourself and requires vision isn't really that far off mechanically from a superhuman moving really fast, and I'm not sure if it's fair to restrict Martials from having powers that put them on the same level.

Why shouldn't martials be allowed to jump a 200ft gap? Because it's unrealistic compared to teleportation?

I think a martial of sufficient ability should be able to jump a 200ft chasm; that constitutes a short distance Mobility task. I don't think they should be able to run across the surface of the ocean to cross to another continent, or instantly arrive at a city it would normally take three weeks to get to by horse; that's a Travel thing.

This isn't a list to exclude cross-over; only highlight what spellcasters should be best at (and by corellary, what martials should be best at also). A spellcaster should probably be able to teleport across a chasm if they're able to cross continents by the same method, sure, but that doesn't mean they should necessarily be better at short ranged Mobility than martials; e.g. a spellcaster can do it with a spell, but if a martial can achieve the same result without the resource expenditure, they have the edge advantage and dominate the market.

[Pex]

@Pex I disagree that spellcasters should be the best at healing. I think they should probably be the fastest, but fast=/=best in this context. I think a mundane healer should have their own ability to shine in this field and not be limited to an area where a spellcasters dominate the field.



I see the point. I'd support for example the Medicine skill be expanded and detailed to cure poisons and diseases and even its own version of Revivify known in the real world as CPR. I was thinking more in line with fast immediate bunch of healing. I can call this a wash in that Martials and Spellcasters both excel at healing in their ways.

[Man_Over_Game]

I think a martial of sufficient ability should be able to jump a 200ft chasm; that constitutes a short distance Mobility task. I don't think they should be able to run across the surface of the ocean to cross to another continent, or instantly arrive at a city it would normally take three weeks to get to by horse; that's a Travel thing.

This isn't a list to exclude cross-over; only highlight what spellcasters should be best at (and by corellary, what martials should be best at also). A spellcaster should probably be able to teleport across a chasm if they're able to cross continents by the same method, sure, but that doesn't mean they should necessarily be better at short ranged Mobility than martials; e.g. a spellcaster can do it with a spell, but if a martial can achieve the same result without the resource expenditure, they have the edge advantage and dominate the market.

It always bothered me that casters are resource-dependent, considering they generally utilize magic around them. Last I checked, most stuff Martials do is constantly exhausting. I get that there is a balance reason for it, as you can't afford your Wizards to use dimensional-shifting powers constantly, and so you make Martials resourceless and weaker to compensate, but most lore surrounding spellcasters has them utilize some kind of outside source to channel their powers.

I don't usually see casters dripping sweat after casting a bit spell in fantasy, and that's not even reflected in 5e. Heck, most casters pull their magic from something with an endless capacity, like Gods, Demons, Oaths, or Nature itself. It's very clearly a gamist concept to have casters be resource-using while Martials aren't.

[Dienekes]

Honestly, I think the premise is flawed. I kind of think the martial/caster divide should be more about the mechanical interaction with the effects as opposed to the effects themselves.

To explain further, take crowd control. In “my perfect game” one could build a mage that focuses crowd control and be amazing at it, best in the party. Just stuns and freezes and entangles with vines and all those goodies. But if someone took a martial class and said “I want to make this a crowd control build” they can scare minions into stopping with an intimidating look, distract with a display of prowess, stun with a crash of a hammer, get all the opponents focusing upon them so their allies can deal with them as they please. Who does the job better? Eh. Each specific build might have their own situations where they perform better than the other. But on the whole about even.

The difference comes from how they accomplish these effects. Wading into battle and making a weapons drill performance check to distract everyone? Sounds pretty martial to me. Saying words of power and calling for upon the vines in the ground to obey your command, sounds pretty magical.

And it’s true the other way around as well. Tanking and consistent single target damage should not only be the purview of martials. The mage may harden their flesh with magic or turn into a bear to make them equivalent to the current Barbarian in survivability. Focused blaster builds should exist and be considered near equally viable as well.

Of course this is a pipe dream.