Mechanics for mundane healing with Healer's Kit and making potions with Herbalism?

[pantastic]

I'm making a new character, whose backup job will be mundane healing (he's essentially a medic droid with a gun). I've never done mundane healing before. Please spare me the disparaging rant, Karen - I recognize that mundane healing is pretty inefficient in 5e, so this will be mostly for roleplay.

Healing / Healer's kit:
1) I assume I'll want proficiency in Medicine ... but that only applies out of combat? :smallconfused:
2) If somebody is down during combat and I need to patch them up, I just: spend an action, mark off one use of Healer's Kit, and they are stabilized at 0 HP ... no dice roll needed?
3) I see that the Healer feat could improve on this, but I'm not sure I can afford to sink a whole feat when others in the party can honestly heal easier/better.

Herbalism Kit:
4) Proficiency with this is required to make Antitoxins and Healing Potions (I'm hoping this is where I really make use of these kits).
5) Proficiency can also be added to "any Ability Checks you make to identify or apply herbs."

Is there anything I'm missing? Anything I'm getting wrong? Anything I should plan on doing differently?

Thanks in advance!

[Lavaeolus]

So, each individual healer's kit can be used ten times, as an action on each use. When you use it, you're right, you don't need a dice roll to stabilise someone. If you want to stabilise someone without a healer's kit, then you have to make a DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check.

The Healer feat will be more useful for a Thief Rogue, who'll be able to use the healer's kit as a bonus action thanks to Fast Hands. Fast Hands + Healer will be a relatively strong option, albeit limited by creatures' needs to rest between having their HP restored. Without the Healer feat -- to be honest you really don't have that many ways of actually doing mundane healing otherwise. There are some things you can do to try and get people temporary HP, but mostly that would come with feat costs. Or magic.

(You can still always RP a doctor or medic and stabilise people when necessary, of course. But as a medic might find in many a real-world battlefield situation, you can't really wave your hands around and restore people on the fly, in or out of combat.)


On herbalism kits: the base PHB rules are kind of vague on item crafting. Xanathar's has more specific ones, which you might want to run by your DM. The Xanathar's rules say you can craft different Potions of Healing, so long as you have herbalism kit proficiency, for a certain amount of time and a certain amount of gp. Normal Potions of Healing will take a day of downtime and cost you 25gp. Note that potions, RAW, don't work with Thief's Fast Hands because they're magic items -- but you can still always administer them to people as an action.

If you have herbalism kit proficiency, you can indeed "add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to identify or apply herbs". But! Be aware you can only add your proficiency bonus once. That is, the bonus you get from herbalism kit proficiency won't stack with any skill proficiencies you have.

Let's say you have Medicine proficiency but don't have Nature proficiency. Both of these could conceivably be used in a Wisdom check to identify a herb, and the herbalism kit would apply regardless; but in both cases the bonus you'd add would be the same. If you had Expertise in Medicine and had to make such a check, you'd add double your proficiency bonus as you would in any Wisdom (Medicine) check, but no more.

[pantastic]

The Healer feat will be more useful for a Thief Rogue, who'll be able to use the healer's kit as a bonus action thanks to Fast Hands.

Sounds good, but I don't think I can afford a 1 level dip in Rogue just for fast healing.


If you have herbalism kit proficiency, you can indeed "add your proficiency bonus to any ability checks you make to identify or apply herbs". But! Be aware you can only add your proficiency bonus once. That is, the bonus you get from herbalism kit proficiency won't stack with any skill proficiencies you have.

That's a good point - proficiency in Medicine and Nature skills would probably cover just about all imagined applications of the Herbalism kit, and I was planning to have those anyways.

However, RAW states that proficiency with the Herbalism kit is required in order to craft healing potions myself.

Maybe I should just skip proficiency in Medicine and Nature skills, and put the skill proficiency somewhere more useful ... especially since proficiency in ANY of this will be absolutely useless during combat. Out of combat the party can take time to assist me and buff me if it's an important medicine check.

[Man_Over_Game]

The best thing you can do is talk to your DM.

The crafting rules are pretty bad, not designed around people doing it while adventuring.
The uses for Medicine are pretty bad, as even a specialized Medicine-user is easily replaced by any level 3 Cleric.
Healer's Kit is fine, but once again easily replaced by the level 1 Healing Word spell.

That's before trying to figure out what you'd roll to find herbs if you have proficiencies in Survival, Medicine, Nature, Herbalist's Kit, Alchemist's Kit, and Poisoner's Kit.

What's ironic is that those three tool kits are almost entirely identical:

Includes: two glass beakers, a metal frame to hold a beaker in place over an open flame, a glass stirring rod, a small mortar and pestle, and a pouch of common alchemical ingredients, including salt, powdered iron, and purified water.

Arcana. Proficiency with alchemist’s supplies allows you to unlock more information on Arcana checks involving potions and similar materials.

Investigation. When you inspect an area for clues, proficiency with alchemist’s supplies grants additional insight into any chemicals or other substances that might have been used in the area.

Alchemical Crafting. You can use this tool proficiency to create alchemical items. A character can spend money to collect raw materials, which weigh 1 pound for every 50 gp spent. The DM can allow a character to make a check using the indicated skill with advantage. As part of a long rest, you can use alchemist’s supplies to make one dose of acid, alchemist’s fire, antitoxin, oil, perfume, or soap. Subtract half the value of the created item from the total gp worth of raw materials you are carrying.

Includes: glass vials, a mortar and pestle, chemicals, and a glass stirring rod.

History. Your training with poisons can help you when you try to recall facts about infamous poisonings.

Investigation, Perception. Your knowledge of poisons has taught you to handle those substances carefully, giving you an edge when you inspect poisoned objects or try to extract clues from events that involve poison.

Medicine. When you treat the victim of a poison, your knowledge grants you added insight into how to provide the best care to your patient.

Nature, Survival. Working with poisons enables you to acquire lore about which plants and animals are poisonous.

Handle Poison. Your proficiency allows you to handle and apply a poison without risk of exposing yourself to its effects.

Includes: pouches to store herbs, clippers and leather gloves for collecting plants, a mortar and pestle, and several glass jars.

Arcana. Your knowledge of the nature and uses of herbs can add insight to your magical studies that deal with plants and your attempts to identify potions.

Investigation. When you inspect an area overgrown with plants, your proficiency can help you pick out details and clues that others might miss.

Medicine. Your mastery of herbalism improves your ability to treat illnesses and wounds by augmenting your methods of care with medicinal plants.

Nature and Survival. When you travel in the wild, your skill in herbalism makes it easier to identify plants and spot sources of food that others might overlook.

Identify Plants. You can identify most plants with a quick inspection of their appearance and smell.

Consider that a level 1 Paladin can cleanse anyone of any poison (even just being drunk), Medicine needs a little bit more than "Tell if someone is sick, and spend a whole day treating them".

[stoutstien]

artificers can pump out healing potions starting at lv 10 at a rate of 4 per day at a cost of 12 gold 5 silver each everyday. based on that you could probably knock out 1-2 every long rest without much effort and have decent stockpile of them.

[Civis Mundi]

Sounds good, but I don't think I can afford a 1 level dip in Rogue just for fast healing.

I'm afraid the prognosis is worse than you thought -- it's an incredible combo, but it would require a 3 level dip to get Fast Hands.

What class are you playing? If you have spellcasting, you could get permission from your DM to use healing elixir from the Starter Spells UA (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-Starter-Spells.pdf). It's admittedly a little strong, and I understand why it didn't make it through. I use it to great effect on my Wizard. I convert all leftover slots into elixirs before a long rest. They don't scale in potency and they only last 24 hours, but they're useful for downtime healing and in emergencies. I'll portion them out at the end of a rest just in case things go sour.


I'm making a new character, whose backup job will be mundane healing (he's essentially a medic droid with a gun). I've never done mundane healing before. Please spare me the disparaging rant, Karen - I recognize that mundane healing is pretty inefficient in 5e, so this will be mostly for roleplay.

I do think Karen has double reason to be wrong here. Mundane healing can't compete with magical healing, but that's not what it's meant for. It works best to supplement magical healing. The only hit point that matters is your last one. So it's great to heal a lot, but even healing a little is huge when the alternative is 0 HP (or dead). Mundane healing relieves pressure on magical healing. Since it functions on its own resource, it allows precious spell slots to be used to their greatest potential, which is pretty much never healing.

[pantastic]

I'm going to be an Artificer, so I know I could do "Cure Wounds" three time per day (and use all of my spell slots), but I was hoping to be able to leverage mundane mechanics for some decent healing. So far, the consensus is: mundane healing sucks. I know, I get it. And it's certainly not integral to my character build, just cool flavor that I wanted to work into the game.


artificers can pump out healing potions starting at lv 10 at a rate of 4 per day at a cost of 12 gold 5 silver each everyday.

That's a nice trick, and it would definitely make me more viable as a 'healer.' I just wish that I could do some before level 10, even if it was just a small one per day.


What class are you playing? If you have spellcasting, you could get permission from your DM to use healing elixir from the Starter Spells UA (https://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-Starter-Spells.pdf).

We're starting at level 3, and I'm going to be an Artificer (Battle Smith). Right now, I'm inclined to stay Artificer the whole way. Healing Elixir looks interesting; I'll talk it over with the GM. Thanks.


The best thing you can do is talk to your DM.

For sure. This mundane healing stuff is a mess, and I'm going to need GM's help with house-ruling mechanics if it's ever going to be more than just window dressing for my character. I'm not going to be much of a healer if somebody who multiclasses either Cleric or Paladin blows my healing abilities away.

[Civis Mundi]

The last thing you might consider is hot off the presses: the Chef feat from the newest Feats UA (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/UA2020_Feats.pdf). I'm sure you could get permission to change cook's utensils to an herbalist's kit, and any mentions of food into potions.

EDIT: Oh, and I'll add that the Artillerist has some great support potential, if you're going that way. The Protector Cannon is very powerful, and further removes pressure from healing spells.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm afraid the prognosis is worse than you thought -- it's an incredible combo, but it would require a 3 level dip to get Fast Hands.

It gets worse than that. Magical items, like potions, aren't able to be used by the "Use An Object Action", and instead are "Activated"(DMG p.141), which disqualifies them from being used with Fast Hands. Sure, you could ignore that, but...once again, DM Fiat wins the day.

[Civis Mundi]

It gets worse than that. Magical items, like potions, aren't able to be used by the "Use An Object Action", and instead are "Activated"(DMG p.141), which disqualifies them from being used with Fast Hands. Sure, you could ignore that, but...once again, DM Fiat wins the day.

I was referring to the healer's kit, not potions. Healing elixir (if allowed at all, shout-out to my DM) would be an out-of-combat tool that filled the same narrative niche. That said, I've definitely seen some advice about using Fast Hands for potions, so I appreciate the clarification. On the plus side, Fast Hands is usually the main argument against making potions a bonus action for everyone when a table wants to adopt such a houserule, so that's a nice illusion to dispel.

[pantastic]

The last thing you might consider is hot off the presses: the Chef feat from the newest Feats UA (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/UA2020_Feats.pdf). I'm sure you could get permission to change cook's utensils to an herbalist's kit, and any mentions of food into potions.

That is a great idea! I shared the PDF with our group already because somebody was halfway joking about becoming a chef even before this came out! But if they aren't taking it, I could definitely re-skin it for my purposes.

[Seramus]

It gets worse than that. Magical items, like potions, aren't able to be used by the "Use An Object Action", and instead are "Activated"(DMG p.141), which disqualifies them from being used with Fast Hands. Sure, you could ignore that, but...once again, DM Fiat wins the day.It gets worse than that. Healing with the Healer feat requires an action, so the Thief cannot use that feature with Fast Hands. They can stabilize as a bonus action, at least.

[Man_Over_Game]

It gets worse than that. Healing with the Healer feat requires an action, so the Thief cannot use that feature with Fast Hands. They can stabilize as a bonus action, at least.

That's not quite true, though. Using most items requires an Action, and a use of an Action for an item uses the "Use An Object Action" (unless you're using the magic of a magical item, such as drinking a potion). PHB, p.193

[Seramus]

That's not quite true, though. Using most items requires an Action, and a use of an Action for an item uses the "Use An Object Action" (unless you're using the magic of a magical item, such as drinking a potion). PHB, p.193The first feature (stabilize) of Healer uses the Healing Kit and can benefit from Fast Hands, but the second feature (1d6+) does not and is a specific action granted by the feat.

[Civis Mundi]

The first feature of Healer uses the Healing Kit and can benefit from Fast Hands, but the second feature does not and is a specific action granted by the feat.

You're welcome to your interpretation, but the convential ruling is closer to official (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/122850/would-allowing-a-thief-with-fast-hands-to-use-the-healer-feats-tending-action).

[Man_Over_Game]

The first feature (stabilize) of Healer uses the Healing Kit and can benefit from Fast Hands, but the second feature (1d6+) does not and is a specific action granted by the feat.

I think it could be up for debate whether it's an Action from the feat, or an Action that the feat adds onto the item.

For example, say I cast Shillelagh, which lets me make any attack with the target weapon to use Wisdom on its modifiers. Say I use it for Polearm Master, the Bonus Action use is still an attack from the Quarterstaff and so can use your Wisdom modifier for attacks/damage.

I don't think either of us are wrong, I just mean that it's really ambiguous and needs your DM to look at it. Although I'm not sure who'd be opposed to a melee Healing Word that costs gold as a Rogue feature.

[Seramus]

You're welcome to your interpretation, but the convential ruling is closer to official (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/122850/would-allowing-a-thief-with-fast-hands-to-use-the-healer-feats-tending-action). I'm not sure what you mean?

[Civis Mundi]

I think it could be up for debate whether it's an Action from the feat, or an Action that the feat adds onto the item.

For example, say I cast Shillelagh, which lets me make any attack with the target weapon to use Wisdom on its modifiers. Say I use it for Polearm Master, the Bonus Action use is still an attack from the Quarterstaff and so can use your Wisdom modifier for attacks/damage.

I don't think either of us are wrong, I just mean that it's really ambiguous and needs your DM to look at it. Although I'm not sure who'd be opposed to a melee Healing Word that costs gold as a Rogue feature.

My one issue with the Healer feat is that, as written, it's the most immersion-breaking feat in the game. It's supposed to be mundane healing, but it's tending someone's wounds as a bonus action. A round is 6 seconds, and a bonus action is some unspecified tiny fraction of that. There's no way this is just slapping a bandage on a stab wound. What on earth is that doctor doing?!

I'm playing a Thief Rogue with the Healer and Inspiring Leader feat as a doctor in a campaign where evocation magic has gone dark, and all magical healing doesn't work. I've decided that the heals from my healer's kits are in fact syringes loaded up with some strange concoction. When someone gets hurt, I stick 'em in the rump between stabbing people with my rapier, Triage.

[Seramus]

I don't think either of us are wrong, I just mean that it's really ambiguous and needs your DM to look at it. Although I'm not sure who'd be opposed to a melee Healing Word that costs gold as a Rogue feature.As RAI I wouldn't be opposed to it either. In fact using the second feature during combat is generally a terrible idea since it disables future healing. It's more of a technicality since it shouldn't come up very often.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'm not sure what you mean?

The link is to an RPG Stack Exchange answer, which is generally a very accurate source for RAW information. I find it more trustworthy than GitP for RAW or official statements, if only because answers that are backed by opinions are frowned upon there (where you get better judgement calls here).

On the linked answer is a response from the top dawg of 5e's development, Jeremy Crawford, who stated that you can use the feat's Action as a Bonus Action. This is with a grain of salt, though, as he has declared his tweets to no longer be official sources for rulings and that the only "official" rulings on certain things will show up in Errata updates.

So it's official/unofficial. More official than most folks, but still something you can disagree with. Which is funny, because the 5e team has always had the philosophy that you should ignore any rule that doesn't work for your table. The rules are there for consistency, and only if that consistency helps make things fun.

[Civis Mundi]

As RAI I wouldn't be opposed to it either. In fact using the second feature during combat is generally a terrible idea since it disables future healing. It's more of a technicality since it shouldn't come up very often.

It doesn't disable future healing, just future healing from the Healer feat. The text states: "The creature can't regain hit points from this feat again until it finishes a short or long rest."

[Seramus]

On the linked answer is a response from the top dawg of 5e's development, Jeremy Crawford, who stated that you can use the feat's Action as a Bonus Action.
Oh! I was confused because Jeremy said a Thief can use a healers kit as a bonus action. Not that they can use the action ability of the feat as a bonus action. Jeremy likes to write evasive answers sometimes.

[Seramus]

It doesn't disable future healing, just future healing from the Healer feat. The text states: "The creature can't regain hit points from this feat again until it finishes a short or long rest."Right, which includes the first feature. You can use the first feature as many times as you have uses of Healer kits. But using the second feature prevents regaining hit points from the first feature, which is bad if someone goes down twice in a combat.

[Civis Mundi]

Oh! I was confused because Jeremy said a Thief can use a healers kit as a bonus action. Not that they can use the action ability of the feat as a bonus action. Jeremy likes to write evasive answers sometimes.

He really does, doesn’t he? To be honest, his attitude really rankles me. These people love your labor of love, why act like such a brat about it?

This why Man_Over_Game has the right of it, couldn’t put it better myself. At the end of the day, it could go either way. But I agree that even if it’s not RAI (and I think it is?), it’s certainly not overpowered, and a very welcome addition to the game. Without it, you can’t play mundane healers at all. And honestly, Doc has been one of my absolute favorite supports to play.

EDIT:


Right, which includes the first feature. You can use the first feature as many times as you have uses of Healer kits. But using the second feature prevents regaining hit points from the first feature, which is bad if someone goes down twice in a combat.

Hmm, you know, you are technically correct, which as we all know, is the best kind (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hou0lU8WMgo) of correct. RAI is unclear, as it so often is. I'd probably allow it at my table, but I'll have to bring this up with my DM. Thanks for the catch.

[Seramus]

Doc has been one of my absolute favorite supports to play.Oh yeah, definitely. As a DM I wouldn't oppose it in the slightest, and I absolutely love players who run quirky builds. Healer + Thief + Inspiring Leader is aces in my book. And now Chef is on the table.

[Mr Adventurer]

Arcane Trickster can use Mage Hand to use object just like a Thief can, I think

[Civis Mundi]

And now Chef is on the table.

This one has my group all in a tizzy. One of our ongoing campaigns is based on this image (https://laughingsquid.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/escape-from-flavortown-module.jpg). One of my longest running characters is a Half-Orc/Half-Elf chef (using Half-Orc stats). He's been a lot of things before, and his original incarnation included Gourmand, but that feat was always disappointing. Chef is, well, *chef's kiss*. Mwah. Finally, some good fracking feats.


Arcane Trickster can use Mage Hand to use object just like a Thief can, I think

Fortunately, Mage Hand Legerdemain allows you to stow or retrieve an object as a bonus action, but not the Use an Object Action, which is a specific thing (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#UseanObject). Otherwise poor little Thief would have nothing but their ill-gotten gains.