The Chain Lock and you?

[Citadel97501]

Hello all, I have been doing some writing tonight and I did notice that there are quite a few guides and what not for the Hexblade (mostly multi-classes), and a couple for Tomelocks but I don't see a lot of love for the Pact of the Chain, so I thought we could begin a discussion, about why that is and whether there is a solution? Please examine and critique honestly & politely, as this is just a few observations and a couple solutions, who knows maybe I am completely off base.

Issues
1) The first thing I can see is that Hexblade exists, this sub-class has severely damaged the design space of warlocks. I know that is a bit hyperbolic, but its a major issue with the warlock class as a whole. But I don't want to get into another debate about why, so lets put this one away for now.

2) Where are all the Invocations? Seriously, I think there are like 3 that focus on this pact, and they aren't very good except for Gift of the Everliving Ones, which is good but as Warlock lacks healing except for the Celestial, this invocation doesn't seem very good.

3) Low armor class & low hit point familiars? This seems to be a problem, especially for some of them that also have low hit points. This is exacerbated by stuff like Armor of Shadows not being able to appy it to them, if it did then the Imp would go up to a very respectable 16 ac. At most lets say you use Aid at 5th level, and Inspiring Leader that is 49 health (9th level warlock) on an Imp.

Solutions
1) Current Unearthed Arcana? Quite simply the Variant Class Features UA, seems to be really trying to provide some interesting space for the Pact of the Chain. Investment of the Chain Master, and Chain Master's Fury both seem to be doing a fine job trying to make our familiars much more dangerous, but they stay extremely squishy.

2) An invocation to improve our pets further than even the UA currently goes? I suggest another invocation that will increase our familiar's health to something similar to the Steel Defender from the Artificer. Here goes an attempt.

Spawn of the Pact: Requires Pact of the Chain
Your familiar receives a boon for its long service to you and your patron, this ensures it will grow in strength to match your foes.

Size: Your familiar increases in size by 1, but may not become larger than you. (Avoids mount shenanigans)
Armor Class: Add your Proficiency Bonus to its armor class.
Saving Throws: Add your proficiency to its
Hit Points: It's Constitution modifier + our Charisma modifer + 5 x our warlock level.
Speed: Same
Damage Immunities: Choose one additional.
Attacks: It adds your proficiency bonus to its attack rolls.
Damage: It adds your proficiency bonus to its damage.

I think this should provide a big scaling bonus to the warlock familiar, and it creates a nice little combo with the other Pact of the Chain invocations from the UA, and still keeps each one rather unique as they keep their other benefits. So the sprite keeps their poison bow, the Imp its deadly stinger, and the Pseudo Dragon keeps its stinger and cuteness :).

[Dork_Forge]

Hello all, I have been doing some writing tonight and I did notice that there are quite a few guides and what not for the Hexblade (mostly multi-classes), and a couple for Tomelocks but I don't see a lot of love for the Pact of the Chain, so I thought we could begin a discussion, about why that is and whether there is a solution? Please examine and critique honestly & politely, as this is just a few observations and a couple solutions, who knows maybe I am completely off base.

Issues
1) The first thing I can see is that Hexblade exists, this sub-class has severely damaged the design space of warlocks. I know that is a bit hyperbolic, but its a major issue with the warlock class as a whole. But I don't want to get into another debate about why, so lets put this one away for now.

2) Where are all the Invocations? Seriously, I think there are like 3 that focus on this pact, and they aren't very good except for Gift of the Everliving Ones, which is good but as Warlock lacks healing except for the Celestial, this invocation doesn't seem very good.

3) Low armor class & low hit point familiars? This seems to be a problem, especially for some of them that also have low hit points. This is exacerbated by stuff like Armor of Shadows not being able to appy it to them, if it did then the Imp would go up to a very respectable 16 ac. At most lets say you use Aid at 5th level, and Inspiring Leader that is 49 health (9th level warlock) on an Imp.

Solutions
1) Current Unearthed Arcana? Quite simply the Variant Class Features UA, seems to be really trying to provide some interesting space for the Pact of the Chain. Investment of the Chain Master, and Chain Master's Fury both seem to be doing a fine job trying to make our familiars much more dangerous, but they stay extremely squishy.

2) An invocation to improve our pets further than even the UA currently goes? I suggest another invocation that will increase our familiar's health to something similar to the Steel Defender from the Artificer. Here goes an attempt.

Spawn of the Pact: Requires Pact of the Chain
Your familiar receives a boon for its long service to you and your patron, this ensures it will grow in strength to match your foes.

Size: Your familiar increases in size by 1, but may not become larger than you. (Avoids mount shenanigans)
Armor Class: Add your Proficiency Bonus to its armor class.
Saving Throws: Add your proficiency to its
Hit Points: It's Constitution modifier + our Charisma modifer + 5 x our warlock level.
Speed: Same
Damage Immunities: Choose one additional.
Attacks: It adds your proficiency bonus to its attack rolls.
Damage: It adds your proficiency bonus to its damage.

I think this should provide a big scaling bonus to the warlock familiar, and it creates a nice little combo with the other Pact of the Chain invocations from the UA, and still keeps each one rather unique as they keep their other benefits. So the sprite keeps their poison bow, the Imp its deadly stinger, and the Pseudo Dragon keeps its stinger and cuteness :).

I'm always happy to see some chainlock love, but that invocation seem to primarily promote the familiar as a more combat capable assistant more than anything else. The HP formula is basically the same as the Artificer's Steel Defender and this would quickly get out of hand. The Imp has a bucket of resistances and immunity to two of the most common non BPS damage types, if you give it decent AC and PC level hp on top of that it's going to be a VERY tanky little summon, that you can just resummon as a ritual during a rest.

[Millstone85]

Where are all the Invocations? Seriously, I think there are like 3 that focus on this pact, and they aren't very good except for Gift of the Everliving Ones, which is good but as Warlock lacks healing except for the Celestial, this invocation doesn't seem very good.
I suggest another invocation that will increase our familiar's health to something similar to the Steel Defender from the Artificer.That's more than Pact of the Tome, which has only two invocations linked to it.

And familiars aren't for fighting. They are for scouting, spying and messaging. IMO, the invocation Voice of the Chain Master is not only good but a must-have, like Book of Ancient Secrets for Tome.

Also, what do you mean by "lacks healing" in regards to Gift of the Ever-Living Ones? The invocation works when spending hit dice during a short rest, when somebody else heals you, or any other way you regain hit points.

[Citadel97501]

I'm always happy to see some chainlock love, but that invocation seem to primarily promote the familiar as a more combat capable assistant more than anything else. The HP formula is basically the same as the Artificer's Steel Defender and this would quickly get out of hand. The Imp has a bucket of resistances and immunity to two of the most common non BPS damage types, if you give it decent AC and PC level hp on top of that it's going to be a VERY tanky little summon, that you can just resummon as a ritual during a rest.

Good points: And that is the idea as it seems to me from the new UA that they are pushing the chainlock in the direction. You are right it does seem to be a bit to much, although I would note that its not very tough on hp. As the Imp would have at most 7+(5 x your level as written). That puts it around 1/2 to a third of most character hit points.

[Yakk]

In the campaign I'm (slowly) writing, pact of the chain familiars gets +prof to (AC, ATK, Damage, Saves), and +3 HP/warlock level. I'm thinking of also "burn a warlock spellslot to resummon as an action (or bonus action)".

It makes them more dangerous and a bit less squishy, but not off-tanks like the iron defender.

(I also buff Blade and Tome, because I think they need baseline features, not just invocations, but that isn't on topic here).

[Citadel97501]

In the campaign I'm (slowly) writing, pact of the chain familiars gets +prof to (AC, ATK, Damage, Saves), and +3 HP/warlock level. I'm thinking of also "burn a warlock spellslot to resummon as an action (or bonus action)".

It makes them more dangerous and a bit less squishy, but not off-tanks like the iron defender.

(I also buff Blade and Tome, because I think they need baseline features, not just invocations, but that isn't on topic here).

I actually like that change alot more :)

[da newt]

BTW - Hexblade and Pact of Chain are not mutually exclusive (although perhaps not entirely optimized, the curse and armor are both great for chainlocks).

I'm a big fan of the IMP familiar - so many things it can help with including spamming HELP action. With it's invisibility, mobility and immunities/resistances they are not easy to take out. You can always have armor made for them for a bit of AC boost too (working under the assumption that barding rules would apply to remove the requirement for armor proficiency - if a INT 2 warhorse can be armored, an 11 INT Imp [also w/ 17 DEX] can certainly figure it out).

[Dork_Forge]

Good points: And that is the idea as it seems to me from the new UA that they are pushing the chainlock in the direction. You are right it does seem to be a bit to much, although I would note that its not very tough on hp. As the Imp would have at most 7+(5 x your level as written). That puts it around 1/2 to a third of most character hit points.

At 5th level (assuming a +4 Cha) the Imp would have 31 hp with a bunch of useful resistances and the ability to be resummoned at full health every rest if need be. A Sorcerer/Wizard at that level with +1 Con would have 27hp. The Warlock at that level with +1 Con is only at 33hp. Personally I'd just go with something like temp hp whenever you summon it/rest or maybe whenever you spend a slot providing the bump wasn't too big.

[Segev]

That's more than Pact of the Tome, which has only two invocations linked to it.

And familiars aren't for fighting. They are for scouting, spying and messaging. IMO, the invocation Voice of the Chain Master is not only good but a must-have, like Book of Ancient Secrets for Tome.

Also, what do you mean by "lacks healing" in regards to Gift of the Ever-Living Ones? The invocation works when spending hit dice during a short rest, when somebody else heals you, or any other way you regain hit points.

If familiars are for scouting, spying, and messaging, why bother with Pact of the Chain rather than just getting find familiar as a ritual (either by feat, cross-classing, or Pact of the Tome)? The Pact of the Chain familiars don't offer anything, really, that makes them all that much better at scouting, spying, and messaging than "regular" ones. Sure, a couple get invisibility, but a cat or a rat or a raven or an owl are all likely to be largely ignored until they start doing something suspicious.

Part of the issue with Pact of the Chain invocations is that they don't really play off the familiar all that much. And they tend to be more expensive to pick up (costing an Invocation) than wizard spells, but just give a 1/day wizard spell to the warlock. I mean, what does "gets better healing" have to do with a familiar? And if "Pact of the Chain" is supposed to be more about conjuration/summoning in general, then it should do more than give a fancy familiar. Even if that "more" is just a ribbon. Something to show the general theme isn't "you have a familiar and it's spiffy...sort of."

[KorvinStarmast]

Issues
1)
agree and thank you.

2) Where are all the Invocations? Seriously, I think there are like 3 that focus on this pact, and they aren't very good except for Gift of the Everliving Ones, which is good but as Warlock lacks healing except for the Celestial, this invocation doesn't seem very good.
Level 15, on demand / at will Hold Monster; pretty good.


Chains of Carceri
Prerequisite: 15th level, Pact of the Chain feature
You can cast hold monster at will—targeting a celestial, fiend, or elemental—without expending a spell slot or material components. You must finish a long rest before you can use this invocation on the same creature again. At higher level, elementals and fiends, and perhaps celestials, often figure as opponents ..


3) Low armor class & low hit point familiars? This seems to be a problem, especially for some of them that also have low hit points. This is exacerbated by stuff like Armor of Shadows not being able to appy it to them, if it did then the Imp would go up to a very respectable 16 ac. At most lets say you use Aid at 5th level, and Inspiring Leader that is 49 health (9th level warlock) on an Imp. Hmm, I didn't get into high enough level play with my sprite to see the health problems, but I was also the party scout since we had no rogue so I kept a few bundles of "find familiar" material in my back pack in case the scout got waxed. I'd love to see the armor be castable on the familiar, but with bounded accuracy, AC of 16 isn't all that big of a deal past about level 7. My 'lock has ac 16 with that invocation and 16 dex, and she gets hit a lot. Our DM likes to take out casters. I am thinking that I need to use mirror image more often ...


Solutions
1) Current Unearthed Arcana? Quite simply the Variant Class Features UA, seems to be really trying to provide some interesting space for the Pact of the Chain. Investment of the Chain Master, and Chain Master's Fury both seem to be doing a fine job trying to make our familiars much more dangerous, but they stay extremely squishy. Don't want to step on the toes of artificer or beast master (OK, laugh) with minions, I am guessing. I like the idea of getting an invocation that allows for medium armor. That helps the 'lock, rather than the familiar.


Spawn of the Pact: Requires Pact of the Chain
Your familiar receives a boon for its long service to you and your patron, this ensures it will grow in strength to match your foes.

Size: Your familiar increases in size by 1, but may not become larger than you. (Avoids mount shenanigans)
Armor Class: Add your Proficiency Bonus to its armor class.
Saving Throws: Add your proficiency to its
Hit Points: It's Constitution modifier + our Charisma modifer + 5 x our warlock level.
Speed: Same
Damage Immunities: Choose one additional.
Attacks: It adds your proficiency bonus to its attack rolls.
Damage: It adds your proficiency bonus to its damage. Looks a lot like beast master ranger or artificer's metal pat.


In the campaign I'm (slowly) writing, pact of the chain familiars gets +prof to (AC, ATK, Damage, Saves), and +3 HP/warlock level. I'm thinking of also "burn a warlock spellslot to resummon as an action (or bonus action)". Nice. :smallsmile:

If familiars are for scouting, spying, and messaging, why bother with Pact of the Chain rather than just getting find familiar as a ritual (either by feat, cross-classing, or Pact of the Tome)?
My celestial/tome did just that. Works fine. Owl, usually.

I mean, what does "gets better healing" have to do with a familiar?
Nothing, perhaps, it's the devs throwing the pact a bone. :smallbiggrin:

And if "Pact of the Chain" is supposed to be more about conjuration/summoning in general, then it should do more than give a fancy familiar. I agree. More summons more often; works for me! Conjure Animals, for example?


Beguiling Influence
You gain proficiency in the Deception and Persuasion skills.
I'd like that invocation to offer Expertise if the warlock already has proficiency ... too much?

[Millstone85]

The Pact of the Chain familiars don't offer anything, really, that makes them all that much better at scouting, spying, and messaging than "regular" ones. Sure, a couple get invisibility, but a cat or a rat or a raven or an owl are all likely to be largely ignored until they start doing something suspicious.You are not that likely to ignore an animal following you into a room, to say nothing of creatures whose first instinct would be to eat said animal, so I consider invisibility a huge plus. It is also easier for the imp/quasit/sprite to covertly carry something, since the invisibility extends to it.

And again, VotCM is amazing for scouting, spying and messaging. You don't get it as a wizard or tomelock.


And if "Pact of the Chain" is supposed to be more about conjuration/summoning in general, then it should do more than give a fancy familiar.Alright, that is true.

[KorvinStarmast]

VoTCM: yes, the utility of this out side of combat is pretty nice.

[Civis Mundi]

I agree that granting the familiar HP/level steps on too many toes.

The Pact Boons' value can really vary from table to table. Mine heavily favors stealth and scouting, so we get a lot of mileage from Pact of the Chain. Tome is the one that doesn't get as much love around our table.

Using familiars in combat is a balancing act: you have to play very careful with them, but even if the enemy does target your familiar, that's one attack that doesn't hit your party, and just 11 minutes (plus a trivial amount of components) to resummon it. The less careful you are, though, the less trivial that constant resummoning becomes.

That means even something as slim as 2 HP/level could become a problem. All of the Chain familiar already have some boost to HP--just 2 for Sprite, but 7 for Pseudodragon and Quasit and 10 for Imp. At low levels, that Imp already might be able to absorb a couple blows before going down. At 10th level with just +2 HP/level, that Imp has 30 HP. It's not enough to play off-tank for a whole fight, but it's enough to absorb plenty of blows that turn the action economy in your favor. And it takes just 11 minutes to resummon that stack of HP. Compare that to the Abjurer's Arcane Ward, which is already considered a very strong feature. An Abjurer needs to make significant investments to recharge their Ward quickly, but a Chainlock wouldn't need anything at all. That, and it can do everything the Imp could already do before.

I'm a big fan of the Invocations that came as part of the Class Variants UA. Chain Master's Fury and Investment of the Chain Master are really powerful and interesting abilities. They don't change your familiar's role into tanking damage, they just lean into their existing role of utility and help the Warlock become a unique controller. It does make Sprite by far the best choice though.

[Amnestic]

You are not that likely to ignore an animal following you into a room, to say nothing of creatures whose first instinct would be to eat said animal, so I consider invisibility a huge plus. It is also easier for the imp/quasit/sprite to covertly carry something, since the invisibility extends to it.


It can carry your genielock's Vessel, which from 10th level can also hold your entire party. Eight hours of invisible hiding, in the talons of an invisible raven-imp. How advantageous that will be depends on your campaign (for some it'll just mean a guaranteed quiet long rest, not dissimilar but slightly better than Leomund's Tiny Hut). Any urban campaign will doubtless see it as pretty good, it's probably got some use in dungeons/exploration as a trick too.

[Christew]

You are not that likely to ignore an animal following you into a room, to say nothing of creatures whose first instinct would be to eat said animal, so I consider invisibility a huge plus. It is also easier for the imp/quasit/sprite to covertly carry something, since the invisibility extends to it.
Not to mention there are plenty of places where a given regular familiar is not an innocuous presence. My party is currently exploring a sea cave dungeon populated with kuo-toa and their lizardfolk thralls. A cat walking into a room in this environment would be noticed (and probably killed) immediately. The chainlock's imp familiar on the other hand, with its invisibility and help action, has been indescribably impactful.


Alright, that is true.
Seconded.

[Segev]

Not to mention there are plenty of places where a given regular familiar is not an innocuous presence. My party is currently exploring a sea cave dungeon populated with kuo-toa and their lizardfolk thralls. A cat walking into a room in this environment would be noticed (and probably killed) immediately. The chainlock's imp familiar on the other hand, with its invisibility and help action, has been indescribably impactful.


Seconded.

While I won't dispute that this is an advantage of a familiar who can turn invisible, I must point out that you're not locked into one familiar type with base find familiar. I've seen my party's wizard actively take the hour and ten minutes to ritual-cast it, spending 10 gp, to switch up what his familiar is to something more useful when it's been important. If you find yourself switching to aquatic environs, nothing's stopping you from taking a bit of time to resummon your familiar as something aquatic. A quipper or seahorse is pretty innocuous depending on fresh or salt water. An ocotopus is better, assuming it's not "strange" and thus "attention-getting" when you don't want it to be.

[Christew]

While I won't dispute that this is an advantage of a familiar who can turn invisible, I must point out that you're not locked into one familiar type with base find familiar. I've seen my party's wizard actively take the hour and ten minutes to ritual-cast it, spending 10 gp, to switch up what his familiar is to something more useful when it's been important. If you find yourself switching to aquatic environs, nothing's stopping you from taking a bit of time to resummon your familiar as something aquatic. A quipper or seahorse is pretty innocuous depending on fresh or salt water. An ocotopus is better, assuming it's not "strange" and thus "attention-getting" when you don't want it to be.
Certainly a solid strategy when the situation allows for it. Not every situation that requires scouting is going to allow time for a ritual cast beforehand, plus that kind of strategy requires having access to a ready supply of incense or what have you which can become an issue in resource scarce environments.

[Greywander]

Whelp, time to drop this again. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?571635-The-many-uses-of-an-imp-familiar)

[Civis Mundi]

Whelp, time to drop this again. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?571635-The-many-uses-of-an-imp-familiar)

It's a thing of beauty, thank you. I especially like Super Mage Hands Legerdemain. I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts on multiclassing a Chainlock with a Trickery Cleric. Actually having Invoke Duplicity would help cover the gaps in Bilocation, and I think Invoke Duplicity would work better in general as one of a larger set of tools. How might you mix the two, if you would at all? Would you throw a dash of Rogue in there? How do you think the UA Invocations might expand a Chainlock's potential in general?