Can a ritual be copied from a Book of Ancient Secrets to a Wizard Spellbook

[nickl_2000]

The Wizard Spellbook says


Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.

So, you have two PCs a wizard and a warlock, the warlock has a book of ancient secrets and has find familiar in in. Can the wizard copy from that? It appears no since rituals from the book of ancient secrets is a warlock spell, right? Or am I off base here.

[CapnWildefyr]

I think the answer is that easy: it's not a wizard spell. It's a warlock spell. Can't copy it, and vice-versa.

As an aside, I doubt you need fluff to justify it, but if needed I would imagine that somewhere in the warlock version it will say "and ask your patron to grant you ____", whereas in the wizard version it will read like "now swirl the tasty meat in a circle held at precisely 22 RPM, clockwise, while chanting 'git over here ya varmint!' in a soothing voice." :smallbiggrin:

[Yakk]

I would say yes.

Warlocks can copy ritual spells from any class list into their book of ancient secrets. This doesn't make them warlock spells.

This is akin to having all of the ritual caster (wizard), ritual caster (cleric), ritual caster (bard), ritual caster (druid) feats.

If a wizard can copy wizard spells out of a ritual caster (wizard) user's ritual book, they can copy it out of a warlock's book of ancient secrets.

I might, however, require a SAN roll for the book of ancient secrets. ;)

[Man_Over_Game]

I think the answer is that easy: it's not a wizard spell. It's a warlock spell. Can't copy it, and vice-versa.

As an aside, I doubt you need fluff to justify it, but if needed I would imagine that somewhere in the warlock version it will say "and ask your patron to grant you ____", whereas in the wizard version it will read like "now swirl the tasty meat in a circle held at precisely 22 RPM, clockwise, while chanting 'git over here ya varmint!' in a soothing voice." :smallbiggrin:

It's a weird technicality, but there's some ambiguity between whether "Wizard Spell" means "A spell made by a Wizard" or "A spell a Wizard can cast". Mostly because of how scrolls function. Scrolls can be used by anyone who has the spell in their spell list, but that could just be part of the magic of using a scroll.

[AttilatheYeon]

The Wizard Spellbook says



So, you have two PCs a wizard and a warlock, the warlock has a book of ancient secrets and has find familiar in in. Can the wizard copy from that? It appears no since rituals from the book of ancient secrets is a warlock spell, right? Or am I off base here.

Find familiar is in fact not a warlick spell. It is a wizard spell. You will find it on the wizard list but not the warlock list. In this particular example a warlock has it because they have a subclass feature allowing it. This means that the wizard can indeed learn find familiar from the warlock boik of ancient secrets and the warlock can learn rituals from the wizard.

[JNAProductions]

I'd say RAW is iffy-ask your DM.

Were i to be a DM, I'd most likely say yes. I don't foresee any major issues with letting them copy from each other-though I might charge the Wizard double the normal price, representing them translating it from Warlock to Wizard.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I think the answer is that easy: it's not a wizard spell. It's a warlock spell. Can't copy it, and vice-versa.
Do you even know how “book of ancient secrets” works? It flat out says you can add rituals to your book when you find them.

Yes one could argue that once transcribed into the book of ancient secrets it’s no longer legible to wizards. But copying rituals from a wizards spell book is the number one way a warlock would add such a ritual to his book.

[Christew]

Do you even know how “book of ancient secrets” works? It flat out says you can add rituals to your book when you find them.

Yes one could argue that once transcribed into the book of ancient secrets it’s no longer legible to wizards. But copying rituals from a wizards spell book is the number one way a warlock would add such a ritual to his book.
Yeah, the language of a book of shadows vs a spell book is ambiguous.
Pact of the Time - "While the book is on your person, you can cast those cantrips at will."
Book of Ancient Secrets - "With your Book of Shadows in hand, you can cast the chosen spells as rituals."
Spellbook - "Preparing a new list of Wizard Spells requires time spent studying your Spellbook and memorizing the incantations and gestures you must make to cast the spell: at least 1 minute per Spell Level for each spell on your list."

There is an implication that a spellbook is a resource to be read and a book of shadows is a talisman to be held. I don't think there is any mention of reading a book of shadows.

[Man_Over_Game]

Yeah, the language of a book of shadows vs a spell book is ambiguous.
Pact of the Time - "While the book is on your person, you can cast those cantrips at will."
Book of Ancient Secrets - "With your Book of Shadows in hand, you can cast the chosen spells as rituals."
Spellbook - "Preparing a new list of Wizard Spells requires time spent studying your Spellbook and memorizing the incantations and gestures you must make to cast the spell: at least 1 minute per Spell Level for each spell on your list."

There is an implication that a spellbook is a resource to be read and a book of shadows is a talisman to be held. I don't think there is any mention of reading a book of shadows.

lol, you wanna get really weird about it, Warlocks can't understand the spell they're copying, they just know that they can copy it:

https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/129292/what-would-a-warlock-understand-from-written-spells-outside-of-their-class-via

That includes if you have the Eyes of the Rune Keeper invocation.

[Zhorn]

I'd say RAW is iffy-ask your DM.

Were i to be a DM, I'd most likely say yes. I don't foresee any major issues with letting them copy from each other
I'm inclined to agree with this. As a player you'll need the DM buy-in, so don't treat it as a given, but as a DM I don't see it causing any issues.
It's a spell on the Wizard's spell list
It's in a book of spells

though I might charge the Wizard double the normal price, representing them translating it from Warlock to Wizard.
This I'm less in favour of. It doesn't seem like anything that would improve the game.
The ability to copy spells into your spellbook to expand your repertoire is a core aspect of being a Wizard. They could play any other of the prepare-spell classes and have access to their full spell list.
Why add that extra hurdle on top of wizards already having a time and cost restriction.

[jojosskul]

So I'm in agreement that the Warlock can copy rituals from the Wizard, and the Wizard can copy WIZARD rituals that are naturally on the Wizard spell list from the Warlock.

Just one minor clarification, if the Warlock has NON-WIZARD rituals in their book, like Augury for example, the Wizard can't copy that even though it's now in "written down" form.

[Sigreid]

I would say yes. If you really want to break your brain you can think about whether a wizard can copy rituals from the warlocks book to his own if the warlock got the ritual from another list provided it's on his own list. For example, if the warlock has Water Breathing that he got from a druid, can the wizard copy it to his book since it's on the wizard list too?

[Chad.e.clark]

I would think yes, because nothing in the Book of Ancient secrets says anything to the contrary. Also, in the Wizards "Your Spellbook" bar, it merely says when you find a wizard spell, you can chose to copy it. Does not specify where or what it is inscribed on, merely that it is a wizard spell.

So yes, any wizard spell, or any spell that is on the wizard's spell list, RAW would be eligible to be copied into the Wizard's spellbook.

[KorvinStarmast]

So I'm in agreement that the Warlock can copy rituals from the Wizard, and the Wizard can copy WIZARD rituals that are naturally on the Wizard spell list from the Warlock.

Just one minor clarification, if the Warlock has NON-WIZARD rituals in their book, like Augury for example, the Wizard can't copy that even though it's now in "written down" form. That's how my brother runs it for my Pact of the Tome warlock and our party wizard: it works for us. (I guess we might want to ask one of the AL experienced DMs how they have seen it work ...)

[Kane0]

So, you have two PCs a wizard and a warlock, the warlock has a book of ancient secrets and has find familiar in in. Can the wizard copy from that? It appears no since rituals from the book of ancient secrets is a warlock spell, right? Or am I off base here.

I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Its a spell on your list and its written in a book, the biggest problem would probably be one of deciphering if the warlock isn’t willing to help.

[Zhorn]

the biggest problem would probably be one of deciphering if the warlock isn’t willing to help.
Which is already one of the flavour reasons given for Wizards copying Wizard spells from the Spellbooks of other Wizards taking the time and gold cost it does, but is quicker and cheaper when doing it from your own spell books.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuZPou9Ebrs

[SLOTHRPG95]

I'd require an Arcana check, with the difficulty set by the spell level, like copying from a Spell Scroll. If the wizard failed, the Book wouldn't be destroyed, but I wouldn't let them retry until they'd gained another level (in Wizard, if MC). Maybe if it was a GOOlock I'd require a Wisdom save, to avoid temporary insanity, but otherwise the bigger problem is what the Warlock's patron thinks about them sharing their secrets with some rando Wizard. For example, a Solar might only want their Clestial Warlock servant sharing rituals w/ a good-aligned Wizard, while Mammon might not care as long as the Fiendlock makes the appropriate sacrifice of gold or gems.