Shadowdancer improvement

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So I have been milling over what could make the shadowdancer worth taking rather than just being a slightly inconvenient one level dip. The most obvious is adding sneak attack I think but what else have people done to this prc to make it into a worth while prc?

[Doctor Despair]

I mean, first and foremost, you could have it advance spellcasting. Maybe open up some sort of stealthy rogue/gish build options.

[lylsyly]

lower hide to 8 ranks, dump dodge and mobility feats, stacks with rogue levels for sneak attack, say 9/10 casting advancement. should make a fairly decent prc ;-)

or simply combine it and assasin ;-)

[Falontani]

Grant it maneuvers and stances in shadow hand

[Troacctid]

Collapse it into 5 levels instead of 10. At level 1, you get the class features of levels 1 and 2; at level 2, the features of 3 and 4; and so on.

[Morphic tide]

I'd make the prerequisites drop the Hide by 2 ranks and Dodge being listed itself for the rare instance of getting Mobility without Dodge and accessing the PRC as level 6, but add Knowledge (the Planes) 7. From there, I'd make Shadow Jump into an alternate movement mode that makes the only Opportunity Attacks be the start and end point, with the distance per day limit being for accelerated movement (including Double Moves), alongside having the Shadow be considerably better scaling to stay useful, and freely dismissable and re-summoned like Familiars are to have an essentially at-will flanking buddy that also chunks off enemy damage output.

I'd also remove the Improved versions of Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, alongside Defensive Roll and Slippery Mind, as those consume significant table space and the clearly-intended Rogue 5 entry would end up giving them to you anyways. The biggest thing would be compromising for all the people saying to stick a subsystem on it by giving it an option list of such things. 5-8 picks, 8-17 maximum levels of progression, with options being Initiating from Shadow Hand and Iron Heart, Shadowcasting, Arcane spellcasting of the Bard's utilities and various Shadow stuff, and getting more Rogue-buffing things.

Each of those progressions being paired with an internal table for entering them via Shadowdancer and progressing with later PRCs roughly lining with a Bard-like use, but also being usable to progress their relevant subsystem while adding the Shadowdancer's options, with the option list progressing them actually being various bonuses like applicable feats, the tiers of Shadowcasting, getting to use Sneak Attack on whatever you feel like, and generally making up the differences between the options as the Shadowdancer gives them to be roughly equally viable in isolation of trying to use it for some hideous quad-9ths mess.

The range on picks and maximum levels of progression is that I'm not sure if I want the end result to be an open-ended Shadow-stuff advancement with a bias towards letting the Rogue go nuts, or an open-ended Theurge that can draw from a decently large bunch of things, including multiple separate instances of the same subsystem, and possessing a flexible ratio, while making sure to give you a few key sneaky-stabby effects so you'll always be a sneaky-stabby character with it. Either way, different picks giving different amounts of progression, so maximized progression means taking the weakest supportive effects. Or least-good-to-Wizard effects, for the Arcane spellcasting, like metamagic reducers contingent on being very extremely risky and inapplicable to most of the BFC stuff.

[Doctor Despair]

I'd make the prerequisites drop the Hide by 2 ranks and Dodge being listed itself for the rare instance of getting Mobility without Dodge and accessing the PRC as level 6, but add Knowledge (the Planes) 7. From there, I'd make Shadow Jump into an alternate movement mode that makes the only Opportunity Attacks be the start and end point, with the distance per day limit being for accelerated movement (including Double Moves), alongside having the Shadow be considerably better scaling to stay useful, and freely dismissable and re-summoned like Familiars are to have an essentially at-will flanking buddy that also chunks off enemy damage output.


Why not just make Shadow Jump a supernatural immediate action, along with that better scaling? Wizards already have Abrupt Jaunt; martials and initiators deserve nice things, too.

[Morphic tide]

Why not just make Shadow Jump a supernatural immediate action, along with that better scaling? Wizards already have Abrupt Jaunt; martials and initiators deserve nice things, too.

The point of that bit is making it so that the simple bypass of interfering terrain/enemies is at-will, while the daily limit becomes just for moving a distance farther than your usual speed while still only being a Move Action. Teleporting 30 ft. at-will as a Move Action is plenty strong enough for a starting point, making it Immediate action is a job for Shadowcasting, in the form of the Flicker Mystery. Could also have the innate scaling be applicability and fully remove the daily distance limit, then that Immediate Action use-case replaces Defensive Roll.

[Doctor Despair]

The point of that bit is making it so that the simple bypass of interfering terrain/enemies is at-will, while the daily limit becomes just for moving a distance farther than your usual speed while still only being a Move Action. Teleporting 30 ft. at-will as a Move Action is plenty strong enough for a starting point, making it Immediate action is a job for Shadowcasting, in the form of the Flicker Mystery. Could also have the innate scaling be applicability and fully remove the daily distance limit, then that Immediate Action use-case replaces Defensive Roll.

So in a sense, right now the ability bypasses the need for tumble, as it's a supernatural ability that bypasses AOOs. The tumble check could be as high as 30, to tumble through severely obstructed terrain occupied by opponents. It also has out-of-combat uses, given the longer range at higher levels.

Your ability makes it provoke AOOs when you leave your threatened square, which is a big nerf to the ability. You seem like you're suggesting to make it at-will as long as it stays within the Shadowdancer's normal range for one move action, which would be a small buff (I say small because it depends on how many encounters the Shadowdancer has; much like the wizard who has to choose how many spellslots to save for hypothetical future encounters before the end of the day, ymmv on the utility or limitations of having a limit or not).

Making it an immediate action would, as long as the Shadowdancer is not flat-footed, allow the Shadowdancer to avoid melee attacks, ranged attacks, and spells/abilities whose range is smaller than that of their jump. It would allow the Dancer to jump, move, and attack in the same turn. It would allow the Dancer to Jump in response to an opponent's action in order to take their attack of opportunity, which would be a large buff and would also justify the need for combat reflexes as a prerequisite.

[Crake]

for the rare instance of getting Mobility without Dodge

Mobility is actually SUPER easy to get without dodge, it's a +1 armor ability.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Give it the "+1 level of existing class features" at every even-numbered class level. That would work the same way as it does on Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion.

[Falontani]

Give it the "+1 level of existing class features" at every even-numbered class level. That would work the same way as it does on Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion.

or specifically base it around alternate systems that you may have when you entered the class.

[Miss Disaster]

Give it the "+1 level of existing class features" at every even-numbered class level. That would work the same way as it does on Uncanny Trickster and Legacy Champion.

I really like this idea, Biff. Especially since I can see the Shadowdancer PrC being thematically appropriate for various chassis's like Rogue, Bard (I mean, hey, DANCER), Shadowcaster, Ranger (probably evil ones) and other various spellcasting classes.

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Troacctid's collapsed levels idea also has merit. I've been converting a whole ton of WotC's bad-to-meh PrC's (especially ones with dead levels) into 3-to-7 level PrCs. This grouping of levels where occasionally some PrC's get 2 or 3 class features upon advancement ... just still don't move the power level of the PrC up to a point where it threatens game play balance.

[Biggus]

Collapse it into 5 levels instead of 10. At level 1, you get the class features of levels 1 and 2; at level 2, the features of 3 and 4; and so on.



Troacctid's collapsed levels idea also has merit. I've been converting a whole ton of WotC's bad-to-meh PrC's (especially ones with dead levels) into 3-to-7 level PrCs. This grouping of levels where occasionally some PrC's get 2 or 3 class features upon advancement ... just still don't move the power level of the PrC up to a point where it threatens game play balance.

Thanks for this idea, I've got an ongoing project to modify the over/underpowered prestige classes, but there are a lot of them. This is a really quick and easy fix if someone wants to play an underpowered class that I haven't got round to yet.

[Edea]

I'd make it a bard PrC. I homebrewed one if you wanted to see it, but I don't know what sort of power level you're looking for. Revolves heavily around an alternative bardic music effect (named 'shadow dance,' because that's creative).

[Darg]

The easiest way to improve shadow dancer is to simply enforce prestige continuity.

Other than that, you could allow the shadow dancer a better summon mechanic. I'd change it to once a day because it is such a valuable partner in combination of HiS. I would also allow the shadow's progression to do what it states: "Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion." This means that by level 20 you could have a 15 HD shadow as it doesn't specifically say class levels. Obviously this would require more dedication than a 3 level dip.

I would also increase the daily uses of Shadowy Illusion every second level to make it at will by level 10. Either that, or make it last 24 hours or until dismissed as a standard action. I'm not done weighing out the implications

[Psyren]

Collapse it into 5 levels instead of 10. At level 1, you get the class features of levels 1 and 2; at level 2, the features of 3 and 4; and so on.

While I like this idea in theory - in practice people would still just one-dip-wonder it and get even more benefit for doing so than they do now. A 1-level dip for Hide in Plain Sight, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge and constant 60ft. Darkvision is pretty damn good even if it does cost two mediocre feats, and it wouldn't encourage any of those builds to actually stick around any more than they do now.

[lightningcat]

The only time I played a Shadowdancer was for PF, I was given a magic item that allowed my character to not run out of the Shadow Jump ability. I was still limited in distance per round, but could spam that trick all day. With the proper feat choices, I was basically Nightcrawler with knives. And yes, I went all 10 levels, although I did bounce back to Rogue for a few before finishing it.
While this might not be the best option, making the total distance for Shadow Jump per encounter might be a good idea. Also, just having some rogue talents with a much more shadowdancer flavor would help for the PF version.

The shadow was rarely useful, generally being used as a scout, as my DM was not fond of dealing with ability damage. So, we never were hit with any ability damage either (points for consistancy). But just giving the shadow a few other abilities would help. Maybe just letting it have the defensive roll when the character gets it, and gaining evasion and uncanny dodge when the character gets the improved versions. Also losing it is way to painful, that needs to be fixed, another reason not to use it much as is.

Maintaining and improving at least some abilities from the character's core class would also be nice. Although I am not going to figure out how to word that until after my home internet gets fixed. Granting special bardic music or enhanced sneak attack would be interesting, although not sure how practical it would be to try.

[Miss Disaster]

While I like this idea in theory - in practice people would still just one-dip-wonder it and get even more benefit for doing so than they do now. A 1-level dip for Hide in Plain Sight, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge and constant 60ft. Darkvision is pretty damn good even if it does cost two mediocre feats, and it wouldn't encourage any of those builds to actually stick around any more than they do now.


Part of my related project in restructuring many of WotC's problematic/unloved 3.X PrCs, is to take the entirety of all the class abilities ... reduce the levels by 40-60% (usually), and then take those class abilities and also re-allocate or restructure them into new levels-acquired that make sense from ascending power level scale perspective.

For 3.5's Shadowdancer, I'll take its 16 class features (over 10 wildly varying power levels) ... and then using common sense measurement metrics, eyeballing and playtesting .... dole them out over 5-7 levels ensuring all the best stuff is gained and/or conglomerated up at the higher levels. Doing my best to inhibit dipping forays while making prolonged investment in the PrC extremely alluring. In theory, that is. :smalltongue: Probably with minor power-level tweaking to some of those features.

[Darg]

Prestige classes were designed around players taking them and maxing them out and having a max of 1. The problem with squishing levels is that it encourages more power play; not necessarily a bad thing, but it sort of takes away the dedication required to follow the path of the prestige class considering the roleplay. Take eldritch knight. You are basically devoting all your time to martial and magical study. There isn't time left to devote to learning another as you want to be an eldritch knight.

I think the best option is to provide better higher level benefits. Many PrCs suffer from a low level syndrome in that some of their benefits by 10 levels in the class is only useful from ECL 1-10. I don't believe shadow dancer is one of them.

Shadowdancer gives 3 rogue special abilities, uncanny dodge/improved, evasion, darkvision, HiS, shadow jump, and a shadow summon with synergy with HiS. No need to make special mention of shadow illusion.

There is a lot that is really strong. It just isn't as intuitive as people might think. Or directly related to how they would pick and choose class features to make ultimate powerhouses.

[Edea]

You could also make it a monk-specific PrC.

It's surprisingly easy for a monk to get into the default version (same skill rank 'difficulty' as rogue, and reduces the feat tax by 1 since Mnk2 gives you Combat Reflexes), and unlike the rogue they don't get any of the shadowdancer's class abilities in-house. Bear in mind monks face severe penalties for multiclassing (once you do it, no more monk levels); shadowdancer's probably the main way in core to get that stuff onto them.

However, this comes to a much more central issue of 3.5: monks (mechanically) suck.