Is it just me...

[Setra]

Or is Junior High (AKA Middle), and High School completely useless? Or at the very least High School?

I have never seen a need to apply something I have learned in Middle/High school to the real world.

Unless you plan on specializing in say Math, History, Science, etc. there's nothing to learn in Middle/High school, and what you DO learn is apparently half lies regardless. :smallannoyed:

The only reason Ican think of to bother going to school is to keep your kids out of college 'til they're slightly more mature, though that doesn't seem to work on a lot of people/

[Cyrano]

Are you out of high school yet?
Because I totally agree with you. I also realise that if I wasn't experiencing Hell School, as I call it, my view would be entirely different.

[Brickwall]

Read the following essay by Paul Graham. It goes into the entire purpose of high school (basically a prison to keep teenage nuisances in until they're not the parents' responsibility anymore) at some point later in the essay, and is overall a good read.

Why Nerds are Unpopular (http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html)

[StickMan]

I do have to ask the question are you still in High school? Cause that kind of Defines the conversation.

[†Seer†]

IMHO, elementary school is to teach the basics of education to kids, and as they graduate and move into junior high/high school, that's where they learn to socialize and get along with their peers. Granted this doesn't hold true for everyone, thus AP programs exist. One such is the Running Start program, which allows high school students to veto the high school classes and instead take classes at a nearby college.

High school Is a rough time in life for a lot of people, because there's so many new things, new freedoms with new restrictions, new expectations by staff and parents, etc. Life gets better after HS though (shamelessly stolen from Heroes, but 'tis true).

Just my 2 cents.

[Setra]

I am out of high school. I'm just looking back at it.

In terms of intelligence, I haven't learned much past elementary, and none of that came from High School.

[Endeavourl]

Even college courses seem pointless at times. For many industries and real world work, companies will retrain you to do your job, you'll probably only end up using 10% of whatever you've learned in your education :smallannoyed:

[StickMan]

Well the ovious stuff you need high school for is getting a Job that will not totally suck, really need college for that these days anyway.

Generally you need highs school to be a more rounded person. Sure if you want to think that you only need stuff like math or basic skills to get by then sure your fine. If you want to have any chance what so ever at being a well rounded person then its very important. High school teaches you the basics of every area of life you need to understand the things that effect your life. They don't teach you the basics in elementary school of government or any ability to understand developments of science that may effect your life for good or bad.

I could go on but I don't like to this kind of a long rant on a forum so what it comes down to is if your want to be a well rounded individual/functioning member of society you need to have a higher education. If you want to be a herd animal then yea all you need is middle school level of education.

[de-trick]

I'm a half nerd I'm in a weird group I'm in the middle group but close to the bottom of the group

i even asked multiple teachers about when will we use lots of things pre-cal, science and stuff in other classes, they said to learn to comprehend work

but the article is right i hate school except for intermingling with my group of friends, when I'm out of my group i fell like I'm the last samurai charging against gatling guns

[†Seer†]

I'd say once a nerd, always a nerd but half of a nerd... '.5/infinity=infinity', so still always half a nerd ^^

Rejoice! For groups of outcasts and misfits are the best there are!

[averagejoe]

Read the following essay by Paul Graham. It goes into the entire purpose of high school (basically a prison to keep teenage nuisances in until they're not the parents' responsibility anymore) at some point later in the essay, and is overall a good read.

Why Nerds are Unpopular (http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html)

That was a good read. I think in high I kind of realized a lot of that stuff, and just kind of stayed out of that whole thing.

But, yeah, looking back, high school is kind of stupid. It wouldn't even be so bad, because I did learn a lot of good math and science there, but then a lot of the other teachers just give you busy work. I was lucky enough to have good teachers in some of the "soft" subjects, but mostly my non-math science courses were just a waste of time.

Edit:

I'd say once a nerd, always a nerd but half of a nerd... '.5/infinity=infinity', so still always half a nerd ^^

Rejoice! For groups of outcasts and misfits are the best there are!

.5/infinity=0 :smalltongue:

[Icewalker]

Sounds like your high school is pretty different from mine.

Middle school seemed on the whole somewhat worthless. Little bits of info I won't get much out of, although I did get some out of a unit on government.

So far in high school, I've already started learning huge amounts of things, some of which I know will come in handy. Its not really necessary but nice nonetheless to know history, AP chemistry may get me something, you can't really say that Spanish won't come into use at some point, I've always been big on math and plan to have it as some measure of a focus in whatever field I end up in, and lastly programming, which I plan to use for my own uses in making small games and other projects.

Thats just this year.


Also, in a big high school, there is large portion of people out of view of the popularity radar. There are some people who are 'popular' and the people who are below this level don't care or even know who is 'popular', and this makes up a pretty good portion of the school, so for those who don't care about popularity, the entire idea of it doesn't influence them because they are under it.

[zeratul]

Read the following essay by Paul Graham. It goes into the entire purpose of high school (basically a prison to keep teenage nuisances in until they're not the parents' responsibility anymore) at some point later in the essay, and is overall a good read.

Why Nerds are Unpopular (http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html)

Thanks for showing this to us BW. It is a very interesting essay, with many truths in it.

[Setra]

They don't teach you the basics in elementary school of government or any ability to understand developments of science that may effect your life for good or bad.

Sounds like your high school is pretty different from mine.
Apparently it might just be my elementary school.

After conversing with my Dad, I think I may have had a very odd elementary experience because I was learning things in elementary that he didn't learn until High School.

[Kronk]

This is gonna be long. I tried to keep politics and religion out of it.


The modern public high school is set up to indoctrinate impressionable children into the ways of the sheeple.

Respect authority.
Memorize what we tell you.
Don't think for yourself.
Don't rock the boat.

What you should be learning:
Question Authority.
Analyze the facts.
Make your own decisions.
Sometimes the boat needs rocking.

English class should teach you how to communicate in the language. How to analyze communication for content and meaning. How to read between the lines. How language can be used to build up or to tear down an argument.

Mathematics is fairly straight forward. Upon graduation you should be able to manage a budget, do cost estimating, and to figure out that the superstore sale where the prices are doubled or raised to "list price" and then they give you a 20% discount isn't such a deal. If you can forsee the problem with an interest only home mortgage at the limit of your financial ability to pay in a volatile market, then bonus points for you.

Science provides you with a better understanding of the world around you and how it works. People with an agenda will try and convince you that they have the truth based on their "facts." Hopefully you will be able to figure out what the facts really are. The scientific method can be applied in many areas. I'd like to see the scientific method applied to an analysis of our education system.

Social studies is the weak link in my opinion. Partly because of its overemphasis on diversity while avoiding the topic of good and bad or better and worse. People and events are divided into classes, groups, and our differences are highlighted. It is our similarities that bind us together: the need for air, purpose, and love just to name a few.

History provides a framework for analyzing the knowledge and wisdom of the world. Not just what happened, but why it happened. Are we really doomed to repeat the same mistakes of our elders?

In government and economics you should learn how the republic that we live in (in the US) is supposed to work and that apathy in general will destroy it. You will better understand the basic forces of capitalism: supply and demand.

The main job of high school should be to teach kids how to think for themselves. If you don't get a grasp of basic knowledge and of critical thinking, then you have no way to know if anybody is feeding you a load of crap.

You might not use all the facts, equations, and vocabulary words you learn in high school when you graduate. But I hope that you are prepared to think for the rest of your life.

[StickMan]

See now I learned all that in my high school. I think the real issue here is that some of you perhaps have not be in good high schools. The real issue is that we need to fix are school systems in the United States.... Sadly because of forum rules I can't talk about how we could do that with out going in to politics.

[Micate]

High school teaches you 'how' to learn. They don't care if you remember anything, they just need you to know how to spend more hours than is really reasonable finding answers to questions that nobody cares about the answer to them.

Then you reach College, where you wish you hadn't forgotten all that stuff you learned in High school, as you learn more about life, the universe, and everything.

Then you reach Real Life, where you forget everything you learned in College, as you learn how to do a job and make it into a career and all that other stuff you only learn as an adult (only 21, so I can't speak much for Real Life, really).


That's my take on it. Kind of ...

[Setra]

EnglishI learned most of this in elementary, and the rest on the internet in forum and message board debates.


MathematicsAgain I learned most of this in elementary, and the rest from my mother.


ScienceI will admit I didn't really learn much in elementary... then again they pretty much just went over elementary again when I was in High School, and everything I know about science I learned from observing it elsewhere. Admittedly I'm bad with science.


Social studiesI don't think my high school even HAD social studies.


HistoryI'm calling bull on this, everything they bother to teach in history is already common knowledge things we shouldn't try to repeat, hell I watch the History channel almost daily and I don't see anything about 'the mistakes of our elders' that we will EVER have a choice in preventing because everything important is decided on by people we have almost no chance of becoming.


government and economicsDidn't have it in my high school.


I think the real issue here is that some of you perhaps have not be in good high schools.For me this sounds like the case, that and a very good elementary school.

[†Seer†]

.5/infinity=0 :smalltongue:

Ack.. hmm, my high school never taught me that! :smallwink:

[Don Julio Anejo]

The funny part is that right now even bachelor's degree in most fields is becoming almost implied and doesn't mean anything. Unless you're an engineer (where after graduation you can go straight to work) or in liberal arts/fine arts (where a degree doesn't mean much, a small liberal arts college would probably teach more than a university and let the person meet more like-minded people), your bachelors only serves the purpose of letting you into graduate school. In lots of fields (psychology, finance, law, etc) you can't even get a proper field-related job without at least master's.

[Winterwind]

Hmm... I don't know about American schools, but I really wouldn't call the time spent in school corresponding to high school here as wasted.
Sure, the vast majority of that knowledge will never be necessary for most jobs. Still, it adds to the pool of common knowledge, opens new fields of interest and/or possible conversation, generally makes people more interesting. Also, it may well help in general life.

Foreign languages? Well, obviously those can be useful somewhere, sometimes. I probably wouldn't be posting here right now if we had not learned English in school; I don't know when or where that French or Spanish might come in handy, but it might well happen. Not to mention that, the more languages one knows, the easier one understands even languages one has not learned explicitly.

Own language, where one reads great literary works, learns about various styles, like romanticism, classicism and so forth? Why, I think it is interesting to see how people used to think, what mattered to them and how they expressed it. It helps understanding other literary works, helps analysing texts, adds to one own's writing skills. Not to mention many or all of these works carry though-provoking content and important messages of their own.

History? Not strictly necessary for present life, yet it is interesting to see how the world we live in came to be. It helps to not appear so ignorant when voyaging or meeting people from elsewhere. Also, learning from the past helps to understand the present and the future.

Social studies? Well, that's rather elementary. It helps you understand how the world we live in works, various economic models, helps to understand how politics works and why the government makes the choices it does. It allows to make an informed vote in the elections, instead of just casting a vote randomly.

Religion/Ethics? I think I don't have to explain why learning about other religions is important in our time? Also, how the customs and dogma of one own's religion came to be, the various religious directions and the religion's history, and the ideas of various philosophers on the human psyche and morality, Kant, Sartre, Nietzsche, Marx and all of them - it helps with reflection, with re-evaluating one own's beliefs and understanding oneself and other people better.

Art? Understanding the motivations of various styles, being able to recognise and classify art, comprehending the subtle symbolism and simply knowing about the various artists. Someone who never experiences art will not value it, either. Also expanding one own's artistic skills, enhancing creativity and what not.

Physics, Chemistry, Biology? Common knowledge about how the world works.

Math to complete the generality of all this knowledge, instead of excluding a part. Besides, while it doesn't hurt to know about that, not knowing about it would make scientific careers very difficult at best.


So, alltogether, I really don't understand where you people who dislike school are coming from.

[SDF]

I still disagree with that articles assessment of the way HS is, but I already responded to that in a post a while ago... I'm sure it is archived somewhere.

Anyway, I do think US public education is lacking. I've been private schooled up until I got to university, but one event sticks out in my mind. In Minnesota you have to take a basic math and reading test in the 8th grade to graduate. (well you can technically still graduate, but there is a footnote in your diploma that says your degree is worthless) If you don't pass you take it again the next year, and up through senior year until you pass it. It was pathetically easy, I got a perfect score in math and missed one in the English section, but there were still seniors taking it. I found that many people never passed it, and it blew my mind. I remember thinking at the time I took it I could have passed it while I was still in the 4th grade. That was probably my biggest insight into the public education system.

My high school taught me much of what I know. It is where I learned computer programing and how to program robots, where I was classically trained in the guitar, how to type properly, the tenants of the worlds prominent religions, the basics of Japanese, economics, journalism, and even how to properly create a movie scene. I got what I could out of high school and got out. I'm glad I went through it, but I wouldn't want to do it again. College used to be a place where you went just to learn more, while trade schools are where you went to get a job. That seems to have changed a lot especially when you hear people talk about "useless degrees" which is ridiculous because the entire point educate yourself.

[Winterwind]

Halfway through that Paul Graham article now. I disagree with his assessment of what high school is (or, at least, I don't think it applies to schools here), but his description of teenage social structures is spot on. As if he was describing my life. :smalleek:

[Vella_Malachite]

I totally agree with the nerd description. The only problem is, human beings are social creatures, and there are literally no other nerds in the entire school where I go to (admittedly, I am in a girl's school on a different continent), so it is very hard for me to find people who understand.:smallfrown:

[Tempest Fennac]

I found primary school to be a much bigger waste of time then secondary school due to how much time was wasted with learning pointless songs and wasting time with rehersing school performances and assemblies (I remember that in year 6, which ws my last year of primary school when I was 11, we were expected to waste time outside school hours with this aerobic performance thing that was part of an even which all the other years were involved with, but I just refused to do it). It really doesn't surprise me that exams claim that children leave primary school being unable to write or do basic maths unless the education system has changed dramatically over the last decade.

[Trog]

You never stop learning. Or at least you never run out of opportunities to learn something. School or no. Not everything is reading, 'riting, and 'rithmatic.

[PaladinFreak]

Mathmatics
Again I learned most of this in elementary, and the rest from my mother.


You know Algebra? Trigonometry? Calculus? Physics? You learned all of these things in elementary school? Man, I wanna go where you went.

Look at this. (http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab7.htm)

[Cubey]

I had the honour of attending to one of the best (#2 to #5, depending on the source) high school in my country, and it wasn't a waste at all.
The stuff I learned was definitely more advanced than what I ever had in junior high (well, Polish equivalent of thereof), and even though I learn about even more advanced theories at the university, my high school taught me how to learn effectively - not to memorise what is in the book like an idiot, but to actually understand what you are reading and why things are the way they are in the book. That turned Physics, a subject I didn't understand at all, into something ONLY quite difficult for me, and allowed me to pass a "maturity test" we have to take at the end of the high school with flying colours.
The school had a very patriotic (which does not include agreeing with anything the government does - actually, it is often the patriotic thing to do to question authorities, as their decisions tend to be good for them and NOT for the country), open-minded air about it, and even though some people were definitely more social than others, the "class system" with popular kids, jocks and outcast nerds didn't form.

Judging my experience and comparing it to others, American and non-American, I came to a following conclusion:
High school doesn't suck. American high school, however, does.:smallcool:

[Kaelaroth]

It is just you.

I am extremely lucky to have been granted with the family wealth and intelligence to get into a good private school. I love it there (most of the time). I learn a huge amount daily, from a wide range of topics. Soon I will pick my GCSE subjects (I hope for Art, Ancient Greek, French and History:smallsmile:) and begin on my journey to becoming an focused scholar.

I learnt nothing in prep school, or elementary school as you Americans call it (I think!). My academic life started in Junior (Middle?) school.

However, my privilege doesn't necessarily mean that state-run schools are bad either. My friends who go to them are smart kids my age who learn roughly the same things as me and enjoy it.

The article proposed was interesting, and I agree. Adults no nothing about kids.

Thanks for reading my little piece.

[sikyon]

Umm... if you don't plan on attending college, university, or a technical school then yeah high school has alot of stuff that you may find useless flipping burgers and pumping gas.

[Argent]

High school teaches you 'how' to learn. They don't care if you remember anything, they just need you to know how to spend more hours than is really reasonable finding answers to questions that nobody cares about the answer to them.

Then you reach College, where you wish you hadn't forgotten all that stuff you learned in High school, as you learn more about life, the universe, and everything.

Then you reach Real Life, where you forget everything you learned in College, as you learn how to do a job and make it into a career and all that other stuff you only learn as an adult (only 21, so I can't speak much for Real Life, really).


That's my take on it. Kind of ...

Well said. I don't apply the things I learned in high school every day per se -- but I do apply the concepts behind the learnings. Even if you don't remember the Pythagorean Theorem or how to do stoichiometric equation balancing or who won the Battle of Whatsisface, from all your schooling you've absorbed the underlying ideas of problem analysis, the scientific method, reasoned argument, proving a thesis... all the skills that I would argue that every single person exercises every day, whether they know it or not.

[Setra]

You know Algebra? Trigonometry? Calculus? Physics? You learned all of these things in elementary school? Man, I wanna go where you went.
I know basic Algebra, and there IS NO REASON WHATSOEVER for me to learn advanced Math. Give me ONE GOOD REASON why someone who is considering Law School would ever need advanced math. :smallmad:

Hell, why would a Doctor need advanced math?

How about a Police Officer?

Maybe a cook?

I could see it for maybe a scientist, and maybe a programmer (but I don't really know anything about programming so I could be wrong there), and a couple of other things, but none of them are careers I am considering so learning it is completely pointless AND THEY NEVER TAUGHT IT IN MY HIGH SCHOOL REGARDLESS.

Plus I was never referring to that anyways!

I was referring to an ability to, and I quote this:


manage a budget, do cost estimating, and to figure out that the superstore sale where the prices are doubled or raised to "list price" and then they give you a 20% discount isn't such a deal. If you can forsee the problem with an interest only home mortgage at the limit of your financial ability to pay in a volatile market, then bonus points for you.

Edit: PLUS, chances are, if I decided to go to a career that required advanced mathematics they'd probably teach me what I need to know in the university.

Edit Edit: My personal opinion is that a kid should go through elementary, extend elementary a couple years if need be, then they can choose a general field they want to specialize in, math, science, etc. that could teach them the advance of what they already know, this would last for a couple years maybe, and if they decide if they want to go to a university for this kind of stuff, if not well they can try again.

[Trog]

Hell, why would a Doctor need advanced math?

*walks in scribbling on a chart*

Right now nurse this patient needs..er.. well let's see here. He seems kinda scrawny. So... er... well just make a number up for the dosage. Then add a couple of zeroes to it. Prescription medication always comes in numbers that end in zeroes. Much like Trog's golf game.

*Pager goes off*

Whoops. Late for the tee time again. *dashes off*

[Setra]

Right now nurse this patient needs..er.. well let's see here. He seems kinda scrawny. So... er... well just make a number up for the dosage. Then add a couple of zeroes to it. Prescription medication always comes in numbers that end in zeroes. Much like Trog's golf game.
Okay math is needed, but does he really need Trig or Calculus for that kind of thing?


It doesn't matter whether you will need it for your job or not. Every bit of knowledge, especially if of scientific nature, broadens your horizons and adds to the general amount of knowledge you possess. All major discoveries were made because people, at some point, sat down and wondered why this or that works the way it does. Essentially, curiosity is the seed of genius. Why would you not want to gain more knowledge?I do want more knowledge.. about my choice of profession.

Many major discoveries were probably discovered by people who focused in their field of profession, and those that weren't were probably accidental.

At this point we might just be better of agreeing to disagree.


"Why should I not want to learn this knowledge?".
Advance math? Because there is no real point in me learning it, and at this point any attempt I'd make TOO learn it would cost money that I don't have.

But whatever.

I'll concede, though I won't change my opinion.

[Winterwind]

I know basic Algebra, and there IS NO REASON WHATSOEVER for me to learn advanced Math. Give me ONE GOOD REASON why someone who is considering Law School would ever need advanced math. :smallmad: The "learning of specific ways to think and rationalise" mentioned by other posters before aside, I really don't think "Why should I learn this knowledge?" is the right question to ask. A better question would be, in my opinion, "Why should I not want to learn this knowledge?".

It doesn't matter whether you will need it for your job or not. Every bit of knowledge, especially if of scientific nature, broadens your horizons and adds to the general amount of knowledge you possess. All major discoveries were made because people, at some point, sat down and wondered why this or that works the way it does. Essentially, curiosity is the seed of genius. Why would you not want to gain more knowledge?

Also, at the time of high school a person's knowledge is too small to make an educated guess at what areas of knowledge will be necessary in their further life - most people I knew didn't even know what kind of job they wanted to have later on, and with others, it changed over time - due to learning more about new areas of knowledge, leading to new interests. Besides, you can hardly decide whether you want to have or not to have philosophy amongst your subjects if you have no real idea regarding what philosophy is, now can you?


I do want more knowledge.. about my choice of profession.Why that limitation?


At this point we might just be better of agreeing to disagree.I would accept if you preferred that, but would pity it personally - I am really curious as to your way of thinking, especially since it seems so completely alien to me. I genuinely want to understand where you're coming from.


Advance math? Because there is no real point in me learning it, and at this point any attempt I'd make TOO learn it would cost money that I don't have.Which is an understandable reason... which makes school all the more valuable, because here you learn all this stuff for free.


I'll concede, though I won't change my opinion.Concede? Change opinion? I'm not trying to achieve either. All I want is understanding.

And sorry this post got so messed up, somehow I made an unintentional double-post, and after deleting one of them, well...

[Setra]

I would accept if you preferred that, but would pity it personally - I am really curious as to your way of thinking, especially since it seems so completely alien to me. I genuinely want to understand where you're coming from.
My way of thinking is normally pretty odd.

Let try to put in simply.

All though out my life, wherever I have gone, whatever I have done, the knowledge that has been required to me has never exceeded what I have learned in elementary, or learned outside of school.

I've asked all of the adults I know, at one point, "have you ever needed to use advanced math?", because all the tales I heard as a child about the pain it is to learn, and I was wondering if the pain was worth it.

The answer was always "no".

Then there are things such as history, which I don't see the point too, English, which was never really expanded on past 5th grade, Social Studies (to mention an earlier post I do remember now that I did have it in HS, but I really didn't learn anything new from it), again I never saw the point, and so on.

I suppose in the end it's probably arrogance on my part, and I'm just being an idiot, and at some level I know I'm the exception, not the rule, but I am very stubborn and do not like changing my opinions on certain things.

[Winterwind]

All though out my life, wherever I have gone, whatever I have done, the knowledge that has been required to me has never exceeded what I have learned in elementary, or learned outside of school.

I've asked all of the adults I know, at one point, "have you ever needed to use advanced math?", because all the tales I heard as a child about the pain it is to learn, and I was wondering if the pain was worth it.

The answer was always "no".Well, I did - but then, that is to be expected from a physicist. :smallbiggrin:

Same thing goes for pretty much all of (high) school knowledge, really - from history, sociology and geography to learn how our society and economy work, over the foreign languages (well, obviously, I'm using that part right now), to the analytical and aesthetic skills from German and Art classes.

But that's not really my point. I do not recall ever using the stuff I learned in Biology, for instance, except for some discussions with friends about various subjects which touched on that matter (personally I would classify that as use already, but that's beside the point). Still, I think this knowledge was worth being acquired.
Because it was knowledge about the world.
I honestly believe you do not have to have some use for knowledge - knowledge in itself is enough reward. That was one major, in fact, the major reason for me choosing a career as physicist - to gain even more knowledge about the world.


Then there are things such as history, which I don't see the point too, English, which was never really expanded on past 5th grade, Social Studies (to mention an earlier post I do remember now that I did have it in HS, but I really didn't learn anything new from it), again I never saw the point, and so on.I could begin to elaborate on how I find each and every one of these subjects highly useful, but that wouldn't bring us far, since obviously you made other experiences. But, as I said, I don't think a subject does have to have an immediate point. You make it seem as if acquiring knowledge was an ordeal. I think it's pure fun. It's just like asking all the questions one asks as a child, "Mom, what is that?", "Dad, how's that work?", and getting the answers. Except school goes even further than that and points one to the questions one never thought of to ask, but which are not less interesting due to that.


I suppose in the end it's probably arrogance on my part, and I'm just being an idiot, and at some level I know I'm the exception, not the rule, but I am very stubborn and do not like changing my opinions on certain things.Different points of view don't make one an idiot.
However, since I believe I understand your stance on this matter now just about as well as I can hope to, and I hope I made my own point of view more or less clear as well, I shall retreat from this debate now, since all that could be gained from it has been accomplished.

[[Insert Neat Username Here]]

Note: I'm going to a private school, so my arguments may be biased.

I think the purpose of high school is that
one: kids must be kept imprisoned to prevent them from turning into complete delinquents. This, not education, is the primary purpose behind High School.
two: because they're all (or at least mostly) in one place, the education must be kept general, allowing them to pursue their chosen careers no matter where they want to go in life. A general education is the secondary purpose of schools.

Reason one should not be necessary. If it is, this world is pretty screwed up.

Reason two is flawed reasoning which applies primarily to state schools. With a minor spending increase, High Schools could be separate for different occupational goals, but most countries are quite cheap when spending money on schools.

[Winterwind]

;3437421']Reason one should not be necessary. If it is, this world is pretty screwed up.Frankly, until coming to this thread, I had never heard of this reason one, much less met anyone maintaining that was the reason for schools. It doesn't coincide with my own experiences from my time at school either, not at all. And I'm pretty sure that, if I asked the people who did not like school back then, they still wouldn't claim the school was anything other than an institution for furthering their education; heck, they didn't maintain it even back then, they simply were not interested.

Reason two is correct, however, albeit not complete (in addition to providing chances for everyone, a general knowledge is necessary anyway to consider the education complete).

[Reinboom]

I know basic Algebra, and there IS NO REASON WHATSOEVER for me to learn advanced Math. Give me ONE GOOD REASON why someone who is considering Law School would ever need advanced math. :smallmad:

And a lot of this information, mostly general, what happens when you are asked to present it in a case? (Forensics related, technical related, psychological related) ?

I believe most of advanced math just develops a process of problem solving and learning while most other subjects develop opinions upon the world.
'We' may not be in charge, but, there's still voting and directing and knowing how to, those in charge.

Also, being able to quickly call upon knowledge when an interesting conversation arises, an event occurs, or just a oddball is thrown into your life - more handy than people realize.
Even to some extent - well - you're on a gaming forum. If you role play at all... math, history, geography, art, and social studies are all rather handy. Literature even allows you more of a basis to know how to direct your story, though, I usually consider English classes a bunch of bull (unless they are intended to learn English).

[[Insert Neat Username Here]]

Frankly, until coming to this thread, I had never heard of this reason one, much less met anyone maintaining that was the reason for schools. It doesn't coincide with my own experiences from my time at school either, not at all. And I'm pretty sure that, if I asked the people who did not like school back then, they still wouldn't claim the school was anything other than an institution for furthering their education; heck, they didn't maintain it even back then, they simply were not interested.

Reason two is correct, however, albeit not complete (in addition to providing chances for everyone, a general knowledge is necessary anyway to consider the education complete).

Well, I don't know about Germany, but here in America, that's the primary purpose of schooling. (They certainly don't accomplish much as schools.)

Am I starting to stray into politics? If I am, sorry; it's unintentional.

[A Rainy Knight]

I do think that it would be nice to specialize at least a little bit in class choice. Like P.E., for example. I fail to see how learning the dimensions of a tennis court is going to enrich my life. :smallannoyed:

[sktarq]

What is important to learn in High School is not when such and such happened or how to find the tangent of an angle. But more how to analyse problems, approch multistage projects like a class presentation or term paper, how to parse important relevant infomation from a general supply (note taking and synopsis essays), how to focus on a given task and see it through to completion including proper presentation and editation, how to support or attack an argument, how to think symbolically/in the abstract (ex. algebra), how to organize time/effort/a group project, what if anything you wish to study further on in education, how to present you ideas in a cogent, smart, and logical manner, how to find additional information about a subject of interest. Quite frankly you learn allot that isn't on the sylabus that make you able to be a productive member of an adult venture. Are their other ways to learn most of the above-of course but HS also preps you for Uni and standarizes the above base skills so as to prep someone to do things such as vote in an informed manner and make sure that the workforce doesn't run low on the above skills.
I'd really say you have to have left Uni before HS seems supported by logic. It would have taken me allot longer except I was lucky-my history teacher told us on the first day of class that she didn't care if we couldn't name a single founding father the day after the final-it was about how much better we thought/analysed/presented our viewpoints.

[bugsysservant]

Yeah, I would have to call public schools pretty bad. The problem is that they give you a deep, sanitized look at a few issues. Can I do moderate level chemistry? Yes. Can I recite the presidential policies that occured from Washington till just before the Civil War? Sure. Can I tell you what a spleen does? Not from any class I've ever taken (though I have learned it on my own.) Can I tell you which came first, the Vietnam War, or the Korean. Not from school (though from outside. I really am relatively intelligent), because they won't teach subjects past WWI- too political.

Rather than being any use for conversation, the only concievable value of most of what we learn, we are taught far more detail than we will ever use of a very few subjects. I see no problem with having a basic "science" a basic "math" a basic "english" and a basic "history," all of which would be mandatory. In those classes you can be taught an overview of all the topics to come, in addition to such real world situations, such as taxes, than after a couple of years, you can specialize. At my high school, I was offered my sophmore year the choice of several different writing classes. Do I want poetry, basic English, Interpretation of literature, or do I want to devote my energies elsewhere? I'm nearly out of high school, and I still don't know what I want to do, yet I am already expected to specialize. My only alternative, which I have taken, is to take equally hard classes all around, in which case the teachers assume you will be going into their chosen field, and increase homework proportionately.

And as for the article: interesting, but the social hierarchy of teens isn't necesarily true. I'm probably the smartest person in my grade, and have one of the most advanced courseloads in the history of the school. However, neither I nor my peers treat me as a nerd. Why? Because I would rip the head off anyone who made fun of me. You can only be fit into a stereotype if you allow it, and all too many people bemoan their social status of "nerd" all the while doing nothing to change it. While I take advanced classes, they aren't the only thing that define me. I am also a starter on the Varsity (American) football team, and have been since my sophmore year. I'm one of the fastest, and strongest people at my school- hardly a "nerd." If you want to change your social status, go for it. Brains and physical capability aren't mutually exclusive, nor are brains and popularity. The only other male in my AP Bio class is the starting Quarterback, and one of the most popular people at my school, in one of the most advanced courses. Maybe my school just isn't conducive to the rigid and destructive social strata that was mentioned, but I sincerely believe that one can only be a nerd if they allow themselves to be.

[Winterwind]

Can I tell you which came first, the Vietnam War, or the Korean. Not from school (though from outside. I really am relatively intelligent), because they won't teach subjects past WWI- too political.:smalleek:
You have no idea how shocked I am by this concept.
Here, we put extra emphasis on this time period, because it is political, and hence necessary for understanding the world around us and developping political views of our own. Of course, teachers are obliged to keep their own political views out of this, and present everything in as neutral a fashion as possible - and otherwise, we just discuss with them (and each other).


[...] but I sincerely believe that one can only be a nerd if they allow themselves to be.But some people are not as capable physically as you are. Others face overwhelming numbers of people who despise them from day one onwards. Even others may not believe in violence and not be ready to betray their ideals.
No, in my experience, there is very little one can do to prevent being labeled as a nerd, if the others wish to label one so. And it is hell.

[sikyon]

I know basic Algebra, and there IS NO REASON WHATSOEVER for me to learn advanced Math. Give me ONE GOOD REASON why someone who is considering Law School would ever need advanced math. :smallmad:

Hell, why would a Doctor need advanced math?

How about a Police Officer?

Maybe a cook?

I could see it for maybe a scientist, and maybe a programmer (but I don't really know anything about programming so I could be wrong there), and a couple of other things, but none of them are careers I am considering so learning it is completely pointless AND THEY NEVER TAUGHT IT IN MY HIGH SCHOOL REGARDLESS.

Plus I was never referring to that anyways!

I was referring to an ability to, and I quote this:



Edit: PLUS, chances are, if I decided to go to a career that required advanced mathematics they'd probably teach me what I need to know in the university.

Edit Edit: My personal opinion is that a kid should go through elementary, extend elementary a couple years if need be, then they can choose a general field they want to specialize in, math, science, etc. that could teach them the advance of what they already know, this would last for a couple years maybe, and if they decide if they want to go to a university for this kind of stuff, if not well they can try again.

Simple. Without exposure to different types of learning, you can't know what you want to do. How can you want to be a mathematician if you've only ever done algebra? Calculus is way, wayyyy different. How can you know that you want to go to law school if, well you've never taken a law class?

There is no way you can figure out what you want to be FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE by high school. Everything is so different here in university, it's nuts. And I'm sure it'll be even more different once I'm out.

Math is an incredibly abstract form of though, involving incredible amounts of logic. If you can't demonstrate that you can do mathematics, then how do people know that you can apply logic? To, say, law cases? There's a difference between knowing all the theory, and actually being smart enough to apply it.

So basically, you need to learn math to see if it's right for you, and you need to show that you can do well in math to demonstrate that you can apply logic to situations, in the purest of forms.

[RTGoodman]

I think it's relative to the topic to point out how my high school (and I think all the high schools in North Carolina) function.

When you're going from middle school to high school (from 8th to 9th grade, or around 14 to 15 years old), you have to pick one of three "paths" that determine what sort of classes you need to graduate.

You could be on the "Career Prep" course, which is for students that don't want to attend college, and can take classes like Home Economics (cooking and stuff), Electrical Trades (learning to wire electrical stuff), or stuff like that.

If you're looking for slightly more than that, you go to the "Tech Prep" path that has the higher level vocational classes, even including Masonry and things like that, and (like the "Career Prep" path) only requires the "business math" classes (or whatever they're called) rather than the higher-level maths and sciences.

The last path is the "University Prep," which gives a well-rounded liberal arts education in preparation for the university environment. You have arts, vocational classes (like computer basics), at least 3 history classes, 4 English classes, 4 semesters of a foreign language, at least 3 sciences (including Earth Science, Chemistry, and Biology), at least 3 maths (up to Algebra 2, at minimum), and whatever else. And there was a minimum number of other electives that you had to have, so you could use those to take more (and higher-level) classes in whatever field interested you.

I think it's a pretty decent system, but I think the end of middle school could be a little early for you to have to decide what you're going to do for the rest of your life.

[Gitman00]

There's a really interesting book by Daniel Quinn called My Ishmael, which deals with this issue. He claims the educational system as one of the reasons society is so messed up, although the education system itself is a product of deeper issues.

Basically, he points out what most people have said in this thread; namely, that the only skills we learn in school which we actually use in the job market are basic math and language. So why do they keep us there for 12+ years? To keep us out of the job market. Think about it. The vast majority of entry-level jobs in any company could be done by 12-13 year olds. However, if we take everyone age 12-18 and put them in the job market, that's millions more people who would be competing for the same number of jobs. Not only that, but there will actually be less jobs, because if that age group starts working full-time and being self-sufficient, they're no longer going to be spending their parents' money on all those things that teenagers buy. That's a HUGE commercial market that will disappear, and the jobs will go with it.

Bottom line is, the current system is great for business, but lousy for people.

[Semidi]

If you want to go into Law School you don't need to know any advanced maths. At my college, I'm taking an easy as 3.14 math class which will satisfy my QA requirement in general education. After that, I wont need a thing because my major is a B.A.

I’m terrible at math and pretty bad at sciences other than biology (biochem is a different story). I will never take a calculus course, a difficult chem course, or advanced algebra course. I plan on going into grad school, possibly law school. So there is hope! When looking for colleges see what the general education requirements are, do they require college algebra? What about Chem? These things you should look into. Remember: you’re paying for a piece of paper and a number which will help you get into law school. No one cares that you’ve never taken a calculus course, unless you’re a physics major or something.

In highschool, you just need a diploma and a GPA, no one cares what you did or didn't do in highschool after a semester or two of college. You just need to show the university that yes, you can do algebra and introductory trig, you got an A which shows you’re responsible.