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JNAProductions
2020-07-14, 09:39 PM
If the game was fair to both casters and martials in fluff magnitude of actions they do, it would be something like this:


Level 1-4 Rogue: sneak by a few guards, steal some purses, open a normal lock without much difficulty, backstab a normal human, talk to people well
Level 5-10 Rogue: sneak through a non-alerted large camp/shadowstep between shadows not further apart than 30 feet, steal anything not bolted down or actively wielded, open a magical lock without much difficulty, backstab an orc general, talk to people and be able to persuade them of really outrageous-but-technically-believable lies or true things, evade minor detection spells (levels 1-2)
Level 11-15 Rogue: sneak through an active city at midday/shadowstep across a few hundred feet, steal things actually bolted down without removing the bolts, or armor/weapons off enemies, open any sort of lock, backstab a smaller dragon, talk people into anything, play riddles with dragons and win, evade magical mind-reading/detection
Level 16+ Rogue: sneak like Greater Invisibility, but True Seeing doesn't see you/shadowstep across the world, steal souls/luck/love/other concepts, open anything metaphysically similar to a door (including the gates between life and death to slip out while Hades/Hel/Anubis isn't watching), backstab a god, actually mind control people with honeyed words or successfully lie to gods, evade any sort of detection that isn't supported by someone being about as good with Perception

About the only thing Rogues actually mechanically do from that list is backstabbing, which does get progressively better (well, it keeps up mostly) with levels. Everything else remains in the 1-4 or 5-10 category at best.

HIT POINTS
Hit Dice: 1d8
Hit Points at 1st Level: 8+Con Mod
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (5)+Con Mod

PROFICIENCIES
Armor: Light Armor
Weapons: All simple weapons, Hand Crossbows, Rapiers, Shortswords
Tools: Thieves' Tools

Saving Throws: Dexterity and Intelligence
Skills: Choose four from Acrobatics, Athletics, Deception, Insight, Intimidation, Investigation, Perception, Performance, Persuasion, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth

EQUIPMENT
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:
-Any three weapons you have proficiency in. If it uses ammo, 20 pieces of ammo are included. If it is thrown, two copies are included.
-Any one pack
-Leather Armor

Special


Level
Proficiency Bonus
Features
Sneak Attack


1st
+2
Expertise, Sneak Attack, Thieves' Cant
1d6


2nd
+2
Cunning Action
1d6


3rd
+2
Archetype
2d6


4th
+2
Ability Score Improvement
2d6


5th
+3
Uncanny Dodge
3d6


6th
+3
Expertise, Skill Mastery
3d6


7th
+3
Evasion
4d6


8th
+3
Ability Score Improvement, Skill Mastery
4d6


9th
+4
Archetype Feature
5d6


10th
+4
Skill Mastery
5d6


11th
+4
Reliable Talent
6d6


12th
+4
Ability Score Improvement, Skill Mastery
6d6


13th
+5
Archetype Feature
7d6


14th
+5
Skill Mastery
7d6


15th
+5
Slippery Mind
8d6


16th
+5
Ability Score Improvement, Skill Mastery
8d6


17th
+6
Archetype Feature
9d6


18th
+6
Elusive, Skill Mastery
9d6


19th
+6
Ability Score Improvement, Stroke Of Luck
10d6


20th
+6
Skill Supremacy
10d6



Unchanged Abilities
Expertise, Sneak Attack, Thieves' Cant, Cunning Action, ASIs, Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Reliable Talent, Slippery Mind, Elusive.

Stroke Of Luck (Changed)
At level 19, when you roll a d20, you may treat the result as a 20 after learning whether the roll succeeded or failed. You may use this ability once per long rest.

Removed Ability
Blindsense.

Skill Mastery
At level six and every even level thereafter, except level twenty, you gain a Skill Mastery, provided you meet the prerequisites. This unlocks new abilities for you.

Skill Supremacy
At level twenty, you gain one final Skill Mastery-a Supremacy, representing the absolute peak of what is possible, or in some cases, not. Additionally, whatever skill you select for your Supremacy now treats any result of twelve or less on the die as a thirteen.



Skill Mastery-General Note
Many Masteries require a certain bonus to the skill in question as a prerequisite-this is your modifier from only proficiency bonus. Even if your relevant stat is abysmal, you still qualify-and likewise, a high score will not let you access better Masteries earlier. Expertise applies (obviously, as many Masteries require more than +6 in the relevant skill) but magical items do not, such as an Ioun Stone of Mastery.

Skill Mastery-Acrobatics

Nimble Step
Requires +3
You ignore non-magical difficult terrain. When your bonus reaches +6, you ignore all difficult terrain.

Tumbling Through The Skies
Requires +4
When you would take fall damage, you can make an Acrobatics check upon landing as a reaction. Reduce the effective distance fallen by 10' times the result of your check. When your bonus reaches +8, you may ignore any amount of fall damage as a reaction. When your bonus reaches +12, you ignore fall damage even when incapacitated or otherwise incapable of taking a reaction.

Shadowslip
Requires +5
You can nimbly step through shadows. As part of your movement when entering a shadow, you may make an Acrobatics check. You may move to any shadow you're aware of within a distance of 2' times your check result. You need not have line of sight or effect to the shadow, but it must actually be there. Additionally, you may not exceed your total movement. When your bonus reaches +10, you double the distance you can Shadowslip when you Dash.

Impossible Motion
Requires +6
You may use your Cunning Action to take the Dodge action by making a DC 25 Acrobatics check as part of the bonus action. If you fail, the bonus action is wasted.

Skill Supremacy Acrobatics-Supreme Shadowslip
Requires +12
You may Shadowslip any distance as an action.



Work in progress! Please, suggest Skill Masteries and Supremacies!

Ignimortis
2020-07-14, 09:54 PM
I like that, but personally - those things I listed should probably apply to all martial skill usage, not just the Rogues'. Also, capstones, in my experience, aren't useful at all - very few campaigns carry on for more than 2-3-4 sessions after you're level 20, since there's no Epic progression or anything like that in 5e.

I would suggest something like...

Rogues get 1 skill mastery each level after level 5, to facilitate them being immensely good at skills (15 total, should be enough to max out 3-4 skills), and two supremacies (one at 15, one at 18).
Fighters, Monks and Barbarians (maybe Rangers? I was never impressed by their spell list for out-of-combat stuff) get 1 per 2 levels, and one supremacy, ending up with 8 unlocks and one supremacy (at 16 or 17, I guess?). They should also gain Expertise, though - that seems to be crucial to accessing higher-tier abilties
Paladins (maybe Rangers?) get 1 per 4 levels, ending up with 4, and probably no supremacy - they have spells for that. Dunno about Artificers.
Bards are tricky, but I actually don't see them getting skill masteries while retaining 9-level casting. Bring them down to 1/2, then we can talk, I guess?
Other full casters are a big no. The only thing I see them getting is knowledge skills (maybe Medicine for Cleric/Druid?), which are already very nebulous in what they do.


Athletics should definitely involve wall-running, water-running, jumping a hundred feet in the air (and perhaps falling down on your enemy) - perhaps remove most of that stuff from Monks as a default and let them get Athletics if they want to do that.

Will write more when I get the time.

Ignimortis
2020-07-14, 10:43 PM
Skill Mastery - Athletics

Heroic Bound
Requires +3
You add double your proficiency bonus to your long jump distance and your proficiency bonus to your high jump distance. When your bonus reaches +6, you can instead jump your movement distance as a long jump, or half your movement distance as a high jump. When your bonus reaches +8, you can jump two times your movement distance as a long jump, or your movement distance as a high jump. When your bonus reaches +12, you can jump up to 400 feet as a long jump, or up to 200 feet up as a high jump. This movement counts as your movement for the turn, but it may exceed your normal move limits for a single jump per turn.

Scale Walls
Requires +4
You can move on walls same as moving on the floor during your turn. If you end your turn on the wall, you start falling (and generally land on the floor half a second later), though you land on your feet. When your bonus reaches +6, you can run on liquids (water, etc.) in the same manner. When your bonus reaches +8, you no longer fall if you end your turn on the wall, and you can move on ceilings in the same manner.

Fishborn
Requires +4
Swimming no longer costs you extra movement. You may hold your breath underwater ten times longer than normal. When your bonus reaches +6, you gain a swim speed equal to your land speed. When your bonus reaches +8, you may spend one of your Hit Dice to reset the duration of you holding your breath. When your bonus reaches +10, you can hold your breath indefinitely.

Dragoon Leap
Requires +5
You can focus your athletic prowess to assault your enemies from above. When taking the Attack action, you can choose to forgo making one attack to instead choose an enemy within your jumping distance and make an Athletics check with a DC equal to their AC. On failure, you jump to be adjacent to your enemy and may attack as normal with your remaining attacks. On a success, you jump to be adjacent to your enemy, and your next attack deals bonus damage equal to your Athletics check result.

Skill Supremacy — Athletics
Gravity Defied
Requires +12
You may jump while still in the air, and all of your jump distances are tripled.

theVoidWatches
2020-07-14, 11:21 PM
So, powerful abilities related to skills, which begin at bordering on the supernatural, and end up well into the terrain of demigods? I would suggest mining Exalted's charms for ideas - obviously the systems are pretty different so there will need to be some translation, but it's a pretty sizable list of skill-related abilities with a similar range. Here are some example charms and suggested translations:


The Solar’s visual acuity is heightened to several times that of a normal mortal. This Charm represents an array of mechanical benefits: the Solar may perform difficulty 2 or 3 sight-based actions without a roll. She gains an additional two dice to notice hidden persons or devices, to catch sleight of hand and see through disguises. In dim conditions, she sees as well as in broad daylight. Deeper visual hindrances such as dense smoke or fog represent less of a struggle: reduce the difficulty of seeing in such conditions by 1, and remove the -1 penalty to detect hidden threats in such environments. These effects reflect the Exalt’s ability to notice and process hundreds of minute details, as well as to focus and manage light sources more effectively. The Solar’s visual range is also increased: she can see tiny details at 100 yards, quickly count masses of troops, and notice threats well in advance of her position.
Special activation rules: The player may choose to activate Keen Sight Technique by paying six motes, one willpower. Doing so sets the duration of this Charm to indefinite. Despite being Simple type Charms, each Keen (Sense) Technique can be activated simultaneously by paying the full cost of each. In addition, these Charms are compatible with Sensory Acuity Prana as well as with each other.
This would probably become a Perception Skill Mastery that gives you darkvision and lets you see across great distances without a spyglass.


Even amidst the Imperial Treasury, the Lawgiver projects her right to be there. This Charm makes it nearly impossible to voluntarily question the Exalt’s presence. As long as the Solar is dressed and behaving as expected for the present circumstances, she cannot normally be considered suspicious. Characters who do suspect something “off” about her may try to read her intentions, but the Exalt’s Guile is at +2 against such attempts. The player may reconstitute the character’s Guile using Larceny instead of Socialize; Charms that protect against read intentions actions are explicitly allowed to enhance this effect. Which characters suspect the Lawgiver depends entirely on the dramatic whim of the Storyteller.
This would probably be a Deception Skill Mastery that gives you advantage on Deception checks to pretend to be someone you're disguised as>


Through mastery of Essence flows and a keen understanding of the body, the Solar can repair even the most ruinous damage at an incredible pace. The Solar spends fifteen minutes to an hour doctoring the patient, depending on the severity of the wounds. She still requires the normal medicines, bandages, and any tools that might be needed for more complex operations, but her results are nonetheless miraculous. Roll (Intelligence + Medicine) with double 9s at the end of the treatment. This is the number of bashing or lethal health levels that will be restored if the patient remains in bed for the rest of the day. In addition, if the Solar’s treatment would raise her patient two or more wound levels, she gains a point of Willpower.
This would probably become a Medicine Skill Mastery that gives you something akin to Song of Rest, boosting the healing done during a short rest. Maybe letting people reroll 1s and 2s on hit die spent to heal during a short rest?

A lot of Exalted charms are dice tricks, but you don't want as many Skill Masteries as there are charms, so you can cherry-pick the most interesting.

This is a sortable spreadsheet of every charm that Solar Exalts get in Exalted 3e (https://www.dropbox.com/s/lyncer4wsabfzji/Exalted%20Excel%20Sheet.xlsx?dl=0)- and yes, I know it's a very large file, there are over 900 of them. You probably want to filter out the abilities Archery, Brawl, Melee, and Thrown, which are combat skills in Exalted (although doing a Fighter rework that pulls from them might be fun, and a Monk rework inspired by Exalted Martial Arts), as well as Spirit, which is a subset of more distinctly magical charms that you can learn from magical beings (there's one that lets you teleport by turning into lightning, for example. Cool as hell, but not really something a rogue is doing). You can probably also toss Bureaucracy, Resistance, Ride, and Sail as not having any DnD equivalents, and Lore's charms are funky and probably not what you're looking for as far as knowledge skills are concerned - although maybe you are looking for the ability to retroactively change reality, I dunno.

As for equivalencies to skills.
Athletics includes strength, speed, and jumping stuff, so you can probably get both athletics and acrobatics ideas from it.
Awareness is Perception, obviously.
Craft can be for artisan's tools.
Dodge doesn't really have an equivalency skill-wise, but maybe you can get some acrobatics ideas from it as well.
Integrity is mostly about resisting social manipulation and mind control - maybe pull some Insight stuff from it?
Investigation is Investigation.
Larceny is a catch-all for thievery and criminal action. Could go into Sleight of Hand and Deception both.
Linguistics is mostly about communication through writing things down. Not really a skill equivalent, but maybe some Persuasion ideas?
Medicine is Medicine.
Occult is a mix of arcane knowledge and punching ghosts. You can definitely get some Arcana ideas from this.
Performance is Performance.
Presence is both pure-force-of-charisma skill in Exalted. It can probably be used for both Persuasion and Intimidation ideas.
Resistance is about toughing things out, like poisons and axes. Also includes creating armor out of your soul, which is neat. If there were any Constitution skills... but they're aren't.
Socialize is the social interaction skill, obviously. Its charms can probably fit into both Deception and Insight.
Stealth is Stealth.
Survival is actually only half wilderness survival - the other half is about buffing pets and familiars, so don't worry about that half.
War is about tactics and leading people. Not really an equivalent skill, but again you might be able to get ideas from it anyway.

Ignimortis
2020-07-15, 08:49 AM
So, powerful abilities related to skills, which begin at bordering on the supernatural, and end up well into the terrain of demigods? I would suggest mining Exalted's charms for ideas - obviously the systems are pretty different so there will need to be some translation, but it's a pretty sizable list of skill-related abilities with a similar range. Here are some example charms and suggested translations:

Obviously, this came to my mind as well. Though I'd say that most Exalted charms only work at very high levels of 5e.

Anyway...

Skill Mastery — Medicine (aka "why do spellcasters hold a monopoly on healing and status restoration?")

Quick Triage
Requires +3
You can mend wounds, set bones and fix other trauma well enough to let your companions fight on longer than would be expected. You can spend 1 minute tending to an ally and make a DC15 Medicine check. If you fail, your target regains HP equal to your check result. If you succeed, your target regains HP equal to your check result and can spend their Hit Dice to regain more HP if they wish. Regardless of whether you succeed or fail, any character can only be target of this skill mastery once per long rest.

When your bonus reaches +4, your target can spend 1 Hit Die to gain a benefit as if a Lesser Restoration spell was cast on them.
When your bonus reaches +6, this assistance restores twice as much HP from your check result.
When your bonus reaches +8, this assistance only takes 1 action, and it can be used twice per target per long rest.
When your bonus reaches +10, the Lesser Restoration effect is replaced by a Greater Restoration effect. If the target spends Hit Dice to regain HP, the die value is maximized.
When your bonus reaches +12, this assistance restores 50+twice your check result HP instead.

Mend and Maim
Requires +4
As a student of medicine, you know full well that what can heal can also kill. You can brew certain poisons and potions by paying GP and devoting one hour of your rest time to it.

At first you can create a poison that causes wounds to fester and rot, as well as a basic healing potion. Each dose costs 10 GP. You can coat one two-handed or two one-handed weapons in poison per long rest. The poisoned weapon halves a target's speed for 1 round when you hit them with a weapon attack using the weapon unless they succeed on CON save with a DC equal to 8+your proficiency bonus to Medicine (expertise applies), and the poison doesn't expire until the day ends. The healing potion restores 3d8 health. You can have up to three potions stocked at once.

When your bonus reaches +8, you can craft a poison that slows your target. The target hit by the poisoned weapon is Slowed (as the spell) for 1 round, unless they succeed on the CON save. Your potions now restore 5d8 health.
When your bonus reaches +10, your poisons are now vile enough to ignore immunity to poisons. Your potions now restore 40 HP.

Lifegiver
Requires +5
Your understanding of the body's inner workings is nothing short of miraculous. You can revive a target other doctors have given up for. You can spend 10 minutes tending to a body of a creature that has died of anything but old age within the last hour and make a DC18 check. If you fail, nothing happens. If you succeed, the target comes back to life with 1 HP, but unconscious. If you fail, but the time limit hasn't expired, you can try again at +1 to the DC (i.e. 19, then 20, then 21, etc.)

When your bonus reaches +6, you can attempt the revival for anyone who's died in the last day.
When your bonus reaches +8, you no longer incur the penalties for subsequent attempts.
When your bonus reaches +10, you only need 1 round to attempt the revival, and you can attempt to revive anyone who died within the last year.
When your bonus reaches +12, you can revive any creatures as if you cast True Resurrection upon the target.

Wondrous Surgery
Requires +6
You may spend a day working on a target, changing their appearance and physical traits to their (or your) whim. When you're finished, the target changes as per Alter Self, except the effect is nonmagical and permanent. This cannot be done more often than once per month per target.

When your bonus reaches +8, you can also allow the target to change completely: they can reallocate their basic level 1 ability scores as per point-buy rules, and choose their ASIs (if you're playing with feats, only those spent on stats) again. Any magical or otherwise non-inherent ability score changes are retained as they are, and reapplied at the end of the process. This can only happen once per target, and then reversed - but also only once.
When your bonus reaches +12, you can perform this operation in 10 minutes, and you can change the target's appearance once per week per target.

Skill Supremacy — Medicine
Balance of Life and Death
Requires +12
Your hands have seen so much life and death, their energies course through you easily and overflow to others. You can touch a target as a bonus action, spend 2 Hit Dice and cause any of the following effects: Remove Curse, Bestow Curse, Greater Restoration, Heal, Dispel Magic, Contagion, Death Ward, Enervation. Save DCs for those effects, if they have one, is 20.

I feel like I went a bit overboard here, but I'll leave the judging to you.

Yakk
2020-07-15, 12:42 PM
Can I suggest a change to skill mastery.

First, the ability for expertise to apply means that +6 level talents have to be balanced for level 5 PCs. That sucks, in that it limits how awesome they can be.

Second, it possibly multiclasses too well. You can get the +12 ability with a 6 level rogue "dip".

---

When I try to revamp Thief classes, I like to go back to pre-gygaxian Thieves. They used a system akin to spell slots, but instead of per-day uses, each slot gave you an ability you could use at-will.

If you call them Talents and give Rogues access to (say) 1/2 caster progression (but in Talents, not in spells), you can have up to 5 tiers of abilities that the Rogue can aquire for each skill.

Some of them can be learned "at higher level" (talent slot).

Then, a level 20 rogue has 4 level 1 talents, 3 level 2, 3 level 3, 3 level 4 and 2 level 5 talents.

This also allows for 5e style slot multiclassing; if another class has 1/3 Talent progression or 1/6 Talent progression, your slots would advance at an obvious rate. (The max Talent level could also work like spells, with "at higher level" being allowed only).

Design wise, you no longer have to "slot fill" for every skill level, which should increase the quality of the Talents produced.

Examples:

Climber - Level 1 Athletics Talent
You gain a climb speed equal to your speed, using one hand.
At higher levels: As a level 2 Talent, both hands are free.
Swimmer - Level 1 Athletics Talent
You gain a swim speed equal to your speed. You can hold your breath for an additional 10 minutes.
At higher levels: You gain an additional 10 minutes of breath-holding time, and your swim speed is increased by 10' for every higher level Talent slot used.
Jumper - Level 1 Athletics Talent
Your jump distance is tripled, as if you where under the effects of the Jump spell.
At higher levels: You gain an additional 10' of jumping distance (up and across) per slot level higher than 1.

So we start with the idea "how awesome should a T1 character be at something". Having a swim speed, or a climb speed, or 3x jump speed -- those are all acceptable things to have at "tier 1" at-will. So those can be T1 talents.

I mean, at-will Jump spell is good, but not broken at Tier 1. (these abilities can be better than the equivalent spell)

Talent1: Level 2
Talent2: Level 5 (Tier 2 PCs)
Talent3: Level 9 (End of Tier 2, edge of Tier 3)
Talent4: Level 13 (Tier 3)
Talent5: Level 17 (Tier 4)

So we decide, based on the character's tier, what kind of abilities are appropriate as a Talent of that level. Map back to talent level, then let PCs pick.

And it looks a lot like a 5e progression chart.