Advice for a Paladin (new D&D 5e Player)

[eshan]

Hi to all!
I'm an old D&D player: AD&D, D&D 3/3.5 a lot of time, Pathfinder 1E but I never played the Fifth Edition of the game.
Finally yesterday i rolled the stats for my new paladin character and they are quite good:
18 - 17 - 13 - 14 - 10 - 10
The new campaign is settled in the Forgotten Realms but we can only chose one of the races that are in the Player Handbook.
I want to take Oath of Vengeance and i like the Half-elf.
The distribution of the stats with the race bonus would be something like this:
STR: 18
DEX: 13 (+1)= 14
CON: 17 (+1)= 18
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 14 (+2)= 16

What do you think?
Better chage DEX with WIS ??
Is better the Human Variant with 1 talent and lower stats respect to an half-elf?
I liked the idea of the full armored Paladin with a two handed weapon that can change in the classic sword and board in some difficult situation.
Thanks (and sorry for the english)

[Igotnothin]

I’d swap WIS and DEX. Both races are strong for Paladins so decide based on role playing.

[Mikal]

I’d swap WIS and DEX. Both races are strong for Paladins so decide based on role playing.

I disagree with the swap.
You're proficient in Wisdom saves but not Dex. Once your aura that adds charisma to saves comes online your saves will even out.

It'll be better to have +5 Dex and +5 Wis saves then +3 Dex and +7 Wis in my opinion at level 7, IMO, and your curve out will remain similar up to that level.

Dex will also help you with initiative, letting you get into combat faster, and gives you a decent long range option when needed besides javelins.

Str for melee and short range (javelins), longbow long range sniping if you can't reach em.

[paladinn]

CHA should be your main thing, so put the 18 there.

If you want a full-armored paladin with a 2-hander, I'd go with STR second, then either WIS or CON.

I love vumans, so I'd go variant human. Use Magic Initiate and grab a cantrip you can use for ranged attack. Eldritch Blast isn't bad, even for a non-warlock: it scales with character level and is force damage.

Just my $.02

p.s. Since someone mentioned a Hexblade dip, I will mention that a sorlocadin (paladin/hexblade/divine soul) was the most fun I've ever had :)

[Lupine]

You rarely can go wrong with Vhuman. At my table, we have an oath of conquest paladin. Running vhuman. Pretty good stuff. Half elf is good too.
Ultimately, both choices can make good characters, and it comes down to flavor.

Though I know I’ll take some heat for this, you might consider maxing CHA, and then take a one level dip in Hexblade. It does cut off your paladin capstone, but it makes your attack and spellcasting modifier use the same stat, which is —conveniently— the same stat used by most of your other class features.

[jdizzlean]

I have only slightly dabbled in 5e, but variant human is almost always the strongest pick in my limited experience.

[Keravath]

What level do you think you will be playing to?

Mechanically, a variant human starting with the polearm master feat is probably one of the strongest combat options. They can use a shield with a quarterstaff or spear and still have the option of using a glaive two handed without the shield. This gives you an additional bonus action attack starting from level 1.

If it fits your character concept then a level or two of warlock can be beneficial for some additional short rest spell slots and invocations. Two levels of warlock gives agonizing blast which is a great ranged attack option. You also pick up several other benefits like a couple of short rest spell slots and the devils sight invocation to compensate for the variant human lack of darkvision. However, you would probably want to wait until after level 6 in paladin when you will have both extra attack and the saving throw aura.

Usually, strength/dex and charisma would be the paladin's primary stats (you can build a dexterity based paladin and they can be a lot of fun but a paladin still requires a 13+ in strength to multiclass and a 15+ in strength to wear full plate heavy armor - light and medium armor have no strength requirements). Charisma is particularly important for the saving throw benefit (and the DC on your spells, and social skills). If you chose to have a level in hexblade warlock you can even use charisma for to hit and damage on a selected one handed weapon.

Luckily, with your die rolls, you will have very good starting stats no matter which way you go with it.

As for dex/wis ... if you aren't planning to multiclass to warlock for agonizing blast down the road then I'd be tempted to leave the 14 in dex for the saving throw reasons outlined above and because a 14 dex does give you a backup ranged attack with a bow that isn't terrible. However, if you stick with half-elf, I would be very tempted to start with 18 in strength and 20 in charisma with a 14 in con. You and your team mates will really appreciate the +5 to all saves at level 6. If you go with variant human I'd tend to go with 18 strength and charisma. (That said, you probably won't regret the 18 con stat distribution you have suggested either ... it amounts to 2 extra hps/level and a +2 on con saves which can be useful .. it is also an efficient use of the stat boosts from being a half-elf and the stats are good enough that you can take the polearm master feat at 4th level and not notice the difference from taking a stat boost ASI).

[J-H]

Whatever you pick, you will be fine. ASIs catch you up eventually, and bounded accuracy means that everyone's got a fairly similar playing field.

[GlenSmash!]

I have only slightly dabbled in 5e, but variant human is almost always the strongest pick in my limited experience.

This is often true, but for Charisma based classes Half-Elf takes the lead.

[DevilMcam]

I'd go
STR : 17+1
DEX : 10
CON : 14
WIS : 13 + 1
INT : 10
CHA 18+ 2

you don't really need dex if you have heavy armor and having good wis for skill and save is great.
As a paladin maxing cha is always amazing if only for the level 6 aura. Yet it also boost your spellcasting by a lot, higher DC and more spell known

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Switch to variant Human, go Str 18, Dex 13+1, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 17+1.

Take Polearm Master at 1st, and start out using a shield and spear (which PAM works with thanks to the errata (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/PH-Errata.pdf)). For your fighting style pick great weapon fighting, and at 4th take Great Weapon Master and switch to a glaive or halberd for the rest of your career. Make sure your DM is aware that you'll be switching to one of those as your primary weapon in case he decides to throw in a magic spear or shield for you.

Use GWM to get +10 damage any time you've got advantage to hit, ideally someone will be casting Faerie Fire or knocking opponents prone or similar, even someone's familiar using a help action every round or someone throwing a net will work, or your channel divinity can be used to guarantee advantage against the strongest enemy. Every turn you can make an extra attack with your polearm as a bonus action if you didn't spend the bonus action on something else, and that extra attack benefits from your GWF style and GWM feat and adds your Str to damage.

Critical hits double the number of dice you roll for the attack in 5e. So if you roll a 20, declare you're using Divine Smite because the dice from your smite gets doubled as well. Unlike 3.x, you can't choose to use divine smite until after you know the attack hits. You'll get Hold Person which renders a target paralyzed (https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/appendix-a-conditions#Paralyzed), which causes every attack that hits them to be a critical hit automatically.

[LudicSavant]

Hi to all!
I'm an old D&D player: AD&D, D&D 3/3.5 a lot of time, Pathfinder 1E but I never played the Fifth Edition of the game.
Finally yesterday i rolled the stats for my new paladin character and they are quite good:
18 - 17 - 13 - 14 - 10 - 10
The new campaign is settled in the Forgotten Realms but we can only chose one of the races that are in the Player Handbook.
I want to take Oath of Vengeance and i like the Half-elf.
The distribution of the stats with the race bonus would be something like this:
STR: 18
DEX: 13 (+1)= 14
CON: 17 (+1)= 18
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 14 (+2)= 16

What do you think?
Better chage DEX with WIS ??
Is better the Human Variant with 1 talent and lower stats respect to an half-elf?
I liked the idea of the full armored Paladin with a two handed weapon that can change in the classic sword and board in some difficult situation.
Thanks (and sorry for the english)

The best change you can make here is to prioritze Charisma over Constitution. Something like 18+2 (20) Cha, 17+1 (18) Str, 14 Con, 13+1 (14) Wis or Dex.

[Nidgit]

I disagree with those saying go for higher Charisma than Constitution. Vengeance Paladins are probably the least dependent on Charisma of any Paladin- one lesser CD option and a few spells, plus of course Aura of Protection. The Aura's obviously good, of course, but picking up 20 Charisma at level 8 or 12 will be completely fine. Meanwhile, your Con saves benefit immediately and as a Vengeance Paladin you'll often be chasing enemies down, so you'll be thankful for the extra HP. Alternatively, you can take a one level Hexblade dip to make Charisma your main attacking stat and go for 18 and 20 in Con and Cha respectively.

Echoing those saying going Dex over Wis. The saves balance out, so as long as you've got someone specializing in Insight and Perception checks, a higher Dex gets you in the fight faster and avoids damage.

V. human is usually better than Half-Elf early on, but as soon as it takes an ASI to the Half-Elf's Feat the Half-Elf pulls ahead. If you want to be able to switch between one and two handed weapons, other notable feats are Warcaster, Magic Initiate, Sentinel, and Mobile. You're probably fine sticking with Half-Elf as your race.

[LudicSavant]

Vengeance Paladins are probably the least dependent on Charisma of any Paladin- one lesser CD option and a few spells, plus of course Aura of Protection.

Even if we accept this premise that Vengeance Paladins are less dependent on Charisma, I would argue that 20 Cha / 18 Str / 14 Con still creates more value than 18 Str / 18 Con / 16 Cha.

First, your concentration will straight up be *better,* at least once you get your aura. Not just because your Constitution saving throw is +1 higher, but also because it provides a lot of other benefits to your ability to maintain Concentration.

For example, failing a Dex save will often skyrocket the DC of your Concentration save. Failing a Int, Wis, or Cha save might just make you lose Concentration outright, with no Con save involved. Even failing a Strength save might put you in a position where it doesn't matter that you kept your Hunter's Mark concentration because you can't get in range to smack a fool with it. Raising your DCs and protecting your allies also confers indirect benefits to your ability to maintain concentration in practice (since allies can help you back, and enemy offenses will be easier to sabotage). Want to maintain that Hunter's Mark for an hour? You want Charisma.

Second, your effective hit points will often be better, even if indirectly. It doesn't take a lot of extra successful saves to outstrip the benefit of +2 hp/level, for instance.

Third, Charisma doesn't just improve your spell DCs, but also the number of spells you can prepare. Since Paladins get "1/2 level rounded down + stat" preps rather than "level + stat" preps, the stat is a relatively large proportion of what they get.

For example, a 14 Cha Paladin will have 3 spells prepared at level 3. A 20 Cha Paladin will have 6. That's a pretty significant chunk of versatility, and having the right tool for the job is yet another factor that confers survivability in practice.

These are some of the reasons that folks advocate for Charisma over Constitution for Vengeance Paladins.

[Mikal]

Whatever you pick, you will be fine. ASIs catch you up eventually, and bounded accuracy means that everyone's got a fairly similar playing field.

Eh, building badly will still leave you behind, and if Feats are allowed you want to get your actual key stats ASAP so you can get Feats.



The best change you can make here is to prioritze Charisma over Constitution. Something like 18+2 (20) Cha, 17+1 (18) Str, 14 Con, 13+1 (14) Wis or Dex.


CHA should be your main thing, so put the 18 there.

Gotta disagree with these two. Honestly the only Paladin that straight up wants to prioritize Charisma would be a Conquest Paladin, since all their abilities are heavily dependent on their spell save DC being high.
For most paladins, especially a vengeance a 18-14-18-10-10-16 statline is great as a half elf.

There is value in Variant Human. In that case I'd probably go 18-13-17-10-10-14, adding to Con and Cha. Why those and not Dex you may ask? Because you can spend an ASI for +1 Dex and Cha to raise them both up, though I'd raise Str up at level four, first. You could also take half feats, one for charisma, and something like resilient (dex) for dexterity, if you don't want to spend an ASI just on the stats, though that's slower.


Whatever you pick, you will be fine. ASIs catch you up eventually, and bounded accuracy means that everyone's got a fairly similar playing field.

Eh, building badly will still leave you behind, and if Feats are allowed you want to get your actual key stats ASAP so you can get Feats.



The best change you can make here is to prioritze Charisma over Constitution. Something like 18+2 (20) Cha, 17+1 (18) Str, 14 Con, 13+1 (14) Wis or Dex.


CHA should be your main thing, so put the 18 there.

Gotta disagree with these two. Honestly the only Paladin that straight up wants to prioritize Charisma would be a Conquest Paladin, since all their abilities are heavily dependent on their spell save DC being high.
For most paladins, especially a vengeance a 18-14-18-10-10-16 statline is great as a half elf.

There is value in Variant Human. In that case I'd probably go 18-13-17-10-10-14, adding to Con and Cha. Why those and not Dex you may ask? Because you can spend an ASI for +1 Dex and Cha to raise them both up, though I'd raise Str up at level four, first. You could also take half feats, one for charisma, and something like resilient (dex) for dexterity, if you don't want to spend an ASI just on the stats, though that's slower.


Even if we accept this premise that Vengeance Paladins are less dependent on Charisma, I would argue that 20 Cha / 18 Str / 14 Con still creates more value than 18 Str / 18 Con / 16 Cha.

First, your concentration will straight up be *better,* at least once you get your aura. Not just because your Constitution saving throw is +1 higher, but also because it provides a lot of other benefits to your ability to maintain Concentration.

The key words here are "once you get your aura". There's no reason to start with 20 Charisma, since you can raise it with ASIs, while your Strength will be what helps keep you alive to get that aura.



Second, your effective hit points will often be better, even if indirectly. It doesn't take a lot of extra successful saves to outstrip the benefit of +2 hp/level, for instance.

Will sometimes be better, not always. If you're going for a battlefield control/tanking/melee strike type role, you want to have HP to absorb all the non save damage you'll receive.


Third, Charisma doesn't just improve your spell DCs, but also the number of spells you can prepare. Since Paladins get "1/2 level rounded down + stat" preps rather than "level + stat" preps, the stat is a relatively large proportion of what they get.

So? Most Paladin spells aren't super useful. You'd rather have your few go to spells (especially as a new 5e player learning the specific 5e mechanics), and save spell slots for smites otherwise.
You also ignored your Oath spells, so that's two free always prepared spells.


For example, a 14 Cha Paladin will have 3 spells prepared at level 3. A 20 Cha Paladin will have 6. That's a pretty significant chunk of versatility, and having the right tool for the job is yet another factor that confers survivability in practice.

A 14 Charisma Paladin at level 2 (when you first get your paladin spellcasting) will have five spells prepared, 3, plus their 2 oath spells. This will be for 3 spell slots which you'll also want to keep available for smites in combat.
A 20 Charisma Paladin at level 2 will have 8 prepared spells, including their oath spells. You don't need to have 6 choices for what's usually 1, maybe 2 spells per day.



These are some of the reasons that folks advocate for Charisma over Constitution for Vengeance Paladins.

Yeah well some of those reasons are trap options.
Now, I'm not saying going this route isn't VIABLE, but if we're looking at this from a optimized progression, Charisma is definitely a secondary stat. Your primary stat is whatever your attack stat is, followed by Charisma and maybe Con/Wis, with Dex and Int afterthoughts (though I still like having a good dex as i stated before since you aren't proficient in saves and it equalizes/curves out better, and it gives you a decent ranged option when necessary.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Here is my suggestion:
18 - 17 - 13 - 14 - 10 - 10
vHuman
S D C I W ch
Feat: resilient Con.
S 17 D 14 Con 14 I 10 W 10 ch 18 (or, swap str and cha)
At level 4, take heavy armor master.
That gives you 8 STR and -3 to damage.
your have proficiency in con saves which helps on some of those spells that need concentration (bless, divine favor, shield of faith, hold person, banishment, various smite spells, ...
Your half elf idea isn't a bad one, and you do get more skills and languages with that, and darkvision.

[da newt]

If you go 1/2 elf, the lower WIS is less important (ADV vs charmed) - where if you go V.Human a lower WIS is more of a vulnerability.

Your initial plan is just fine. There are other good options, and benefits/detriments to each. With your rolled stats and the half elf's +2, +1, +1 it would be hard to mess up.

However - I will say I'm a huge fan of the PAM feat, and CHA is a paladin's keystone stat (and there are a bunch of useful abilities that key off of it). For me personally, I'd be very tempted to start V. Human w/ PAM, 18 ST, 18 CH, 14 CON, and 14 DEX or WIS as suites your preference.

[LudicSavant]

There's no reason to start with 20 Charisma, since you can raise it with ASIs

Sure there is. Not the least of which being "you can use those ASIs on other things." There aren't that many to go around.


Will sometimes be better, not always.

That's what I already said, yes.


If you're going for a battlefield control/tanking/melee strike type role, you want to have HP to absorb all the non save damage you'll receive.

If you reduce your losses from failed saves, you'll have more left over for things that are not saves, too (as will everyone in your party). In addition to the benefits to active defenses (keeping Concentration more often, being better able to throw a monkey wrench in Team Monster's offensive plans, etc).

It really does not take a lot to outpace the defensive benefits of a dozen hit points, and Charisma has several different ways that that can happen in any given adventuring day, which adds up to it being a frequent occurrence.


Now, I'm not saying going this route isn't VIABLE, but if we're looking at this from a optimized progression, Charisma is definitely a secondary stat. Your primary stat is whatever your attack stat is, followed by Charisma

Then why are you arguing against the idea of prioritizing Charisma second? :smallconfused:

[eshan]

Thanks to all for answering!! :smallsmile:

Our DM wants to make an "old school" campaign so he really doesn't like the idea of strange multiclassing (unless with a stong background behind).
He can accept at best a classic rogue\fighter with a decent assassin background but a paladin\warlock is really impossible for me.
We start form 1°level. In addition to me, our party is made up of a human wizard, an halforc barbarian, a wood elf rogue and a dwarf cleric.

I read a good number of paladin build on the web and all was talking about the polearm mastery feat.
Is it really good? Is it really worth it?
Sincerely I don't really like using weapons like spear,hallberd and glaive although from the 3E they were very good.
I'm more of a 2H-sword/hammer type :smallcool:
Anyway is it a fun fighting style to play the polearm master? Because if so, I could try.

At the beginning i consider only the half-elf but in the end I'm starting to reconsider also the vhuman, above all for roleplaying. We have only 1 human in the party..
It seems to me that with my rolled stats an halfelf paladin would be very strong, the vhuman a little less.
If i want to take PAM i have to wait only the 4th level, it doesn't seem like a big difference to me. Am I wrong?

I don't want to start with 20 CHA, it's too much for the idea of roleplaying the character that I have in mind.
Moreover we don't really use FACE skills like persuasion/intimidation, for my DM counts only what we do or what we say roleplaying not the roll of the skill.
The real question is: is there a great difference (in the long distance not in the short) to start with 16 or 18 CHA? For what i read and i understrand, maybe I'm wrong, but the Oath of Vengeance Paladin is less dependent on CHA than others paladins.

Finally, what feats excepts PAM are fundamentals?

[Skylivedk]

Please prioritise charisma over Constitution. Not just for you in combat, but also for you out of combat, for your amount of choices, for your party later... If you RP your dialogue, I'd guess it would be frowned upon to play 8 cha like 18 cha. At least it is at my table. Anyway, it is worth talking about. IMO, you shouldn't encourage people playing 8 int as they do 18 int.

In general charisma is just the better choice for your 1st/2nd stat than Constitution or Dexterity (presuming you are playing a strength based Paladin).

Constitution and Dexterity are not even close to being contenders for any stat allocation above 14 (I'd pick it as my tertiary stat).

PAM is great, but GWM is also very, very powerful. Especially on Vengeance and Devotion since you'll have an easy time off-setting the -5 to hit. With 1h spears also allowed as PAM material, I would say GWM has dropped a bit in relative power.

Be aware of how many of each type of action (standard, bonus and reaction) you rely on to get going in a combat.

[CTurbo]

I would either go Vhuman and take PAM to start

17+1 Str, 13+1 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 18 Cha

Then at level 4 you can either max Str or Cha or take another feat.


or


Half-Elf
17+1 Str, 13+1 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 18+2 Cha

Then take PAM at level 4.


Yes PAM is very very good especially for Paladins. I would NOT take GWM too unless you are just specifically trying to min-max for maximum DPR. You could choose GWM instead of PAM if you prefer to use a big 2 handed Greatsword or Maul, but I much prefer PAM to GWM.

Other feats to consider-
Inspiring Leader
Lucky
Tough
Heavy Armor Master
Magic Initiate



Don't be afraid of a Dex build either. You could go Half-Elf
10 Str, 17+1 Dex, 14 Con, 10 Int, 13+1 Wis, 18+2 Cha
...and use a Rapier + Shield. Then you could grab Elven Accuracy and demolish the BBEG you select as your Vow of Enmity. You only lose 1 AC to the Str build and Dex is arguably the better stat to invest in anyway.

[CTurbo]

Thanks to all for answering!! :smallsmile:

Our DM wants to make an "old school" campaign so he really doesn't like the idea of strange multiclassing (unless with a stong background behind).
He can accept at best a classic rogue\fighter with a decent assassin background but a paladin\warlock is really impossible for me.
We start form 1°level. In addition to me, our party is made up of a human wizard, an halforc barbarian, a wood elf rogue and a dwarf cleric.

I read a good number of paladin build on the web and all was talking about the polearm mastery feat.
Is it really good? Is it really worth it?
Sincerely I don't really like using weapons like spear,hallberd and glaive although from the 3E they were very good.
I'm more of a 2H-sword/hammer type :smallcool:
Anyway is it a fun fighting style to play the polearm master? Because if so, I could try.

At the beginning i consider only the half-elf but in the end I'm starting to reconsider also the vhuman, above all for roleplaying. We have only 1 human in the party..
It seems to me that with my rolled stats an halfelf paladin would be very strong, the vhuman a little less.
If i want to take PAM i have to wait only the 4th level, it doesn't seem like a big difference to me. Am I wrong?

I don't want to start with 20 CHA, it's too much for the idea of roleplaying the character that I have in mind.
Moreover we don't really use FACE skills like persuasion/intimidation, for my DM counts only what we do or what we say roleplaying not the roll of the skill.
The real question is: is there a great difference (in the long distance not in the short) to start with 16 or 18 CHA? For what i read and i understrand, maybe I'm wrong, but the Oath of Vengeance Paladin is less dependent on CHA than others paladins.

Finally, what feats excepts PAM are fundamentals?

It would be perfectly ok to start Half-Elf
17+1 Str, 13+1 Dex, 18 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis, 14+2 Cha.
If you don't want to start with 20 Cha, starting with 16 Cha is just fine. I WOULD bump it to 18 by level 8 at the latest though. It boosts your Aura of Protection at level 6 which adds your Cha mod to all saves for you and any friend within 10ft of you.

[paladinn]

Thanks to all for answering!! :smallsmile:

Our DM wants to make an "old school" campaign so he really doesn't like the idea of strange multiclassing (unless with a stong background behind).
He can accept at best a classic rogue\fighter with a decent assassin background but a paladin\warlock is really impossible for me.
We start form 1°level. In addition to me, our party is made up of a human wizard, an halforc barbarian, a wood elf rogue and a dwarf cleric.

I read a good number of paladin build on the web and all was talking about the polearm mastery feat.
Is it really good? Is it really worth it?
Sincerely I don't really like using weapons like spear,hallberd and glaive although from the 3E they were very good.
I'm more of a 2H-sword/hammer type :smallcool:
Anyway is it a fun fighting style to play the polearm master? Because if so, I could try.

At the beginning i consider only the half-elf but in the end I'm starting to reconsider also the vhuman, above all for roleplaying. We have only 1 human in the party..
It seems to me that with my rolled stats an halfelf paladin would be very strong, the vhuman a little less.
If i want to take PAM i have to wait only the 4th level, it doesn't seem like a big difference to me. Am I wrong?

I don't want to start with 20 CHA, it's too much for the idea of roleplaying the character that I have in mind.
Moreover we don't really use FACE skills like persuasion/intimidation, for my DM counts only what we do or what we say roleplaying not the roll of the skill.
The real question is: is there a great difference (in the long distance not in the short) to start with 16 or 18 CHA? For what i read and i understrand, maybe I'm wrong, but the Oath of Vengeance Paladin is less dependent on CHA than others paladins.

Finally, what feats excepts PAM are fundamentals?

PAM is really good.. you basically get a backdoor extra attack, possibly Before you get a real extra attack.

When I did my sorlocadin, I wanted to be able to melee and smite like a "normal" paladin. I also wanted some more healing than a normal paladin; and I wanted a decent ranged attack. Going vengeance, hexblade and divine soul, I got all three. Eldritch blast is one of the best ranged attacks in the game. With divine soul I got cleric spells, including some serious healing, and at a higher level I got fireball! (and a lot of smite fodder)

Outside of PAM, I would give thought to some sort of ranged attack, preferably not a javelin. Ranged combat is probably the paladin's only real weak point.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Thanks to all for answering!! :smallsmile:

Our DM wants to make an "old school" campaign so he really doesn't like the idea of strange multiclassing (unless with a stong background behind).
He can accept at best a classic rogue\fighter with a decent assassin background but a paladin\warlock is really impossible for me.
We start form 1°level. In addition to me, our party is made up of a human wizard, an halforc barbarian, a wood elf rogue and a dwarf cleric.

I read a good number of paladin build on the web and all was talking about the polearm mastery feat.
Is it really good? Is it really worth it?
Sincerely I don't really like using weapons like spear,hallberd and glaive although from the 3E they were very good.
I'm more of a 2H-sword/hammer type :smallcool:
Anyway is it a fun fighting style to play the polearm master? Because if so, I could try.

At the beginning i consider only the half-elf but in the end I'm starting to reconsider also the vhuman, above all for roleplaying. We have only 1 human in the party..
It seems to me that with my rolled stats an halfelf paladin would be very strong, the vhuman a little less.
If i want to take PAM i have to wait only the 4th level, it doesn't seem like a big difference to me. Am I wrong?

I don't want to start with 20 CHA, it's too much for the idea of roleplaying the character that I have in mind.
Moreover we don't really use FACE skills like persuasion/intimidation, for my DM counts only what we do or what we say roleplaying not the roll of the skill.
The real question is: is there a great difference (in the long distance not in the short) to start with 16 or 18 CHA? For what i read and i understrand, maybe I'm wrong, but the Oath of Vengeance Paladin is less dependent on CHA than others paladins.

Finally, what feats excepts PAM are fundamentals?
Despite that this thread says optimization, I'd focus more on what you want to role play, basically because nothing that you have suggested is bad. Your rolls are great, Paladin is great, and vhuman and 1/2 elf are basically your best options. 2HSword with GWM will work fine, though you definitely want to pump your strength as much as possible to take advantage of the -5/+10 mechanic. One thing 5e doesn't do well is let you swap very effectively between fighting styles; if you take GWM and pull out a Shield and Longsword the benefit of that investment is gone. The one that does is PAM since you can use a shield and spear/staff or a polearm.

[Honk]

I liked the idea of the full armored Paladin with a two handed weapon that can change in the classic sword and board in some difficult situation.

Above are a bunch of very interesting build possibilities. But I would not overly concern myself with min-max theories, since your group rolls for stats and you got away pretty lucky.
Also is the Paladin a nice swiss army knife of goodness, very sturdy, very versatile good damage possibility.
My lvl 8 Conquest pala / lvl 3 divine sorcerer just got online: hastened hold person (Auto crit in melee) with double smite lvl4/3 with greatsword... That’ll add up to an average of 115 damage 😲
He can heal 40hp (8lvl lay on hands) has an AC of 23 (28 with shield reaction) and his Aura gives +5 on saves his conquest stuff makes evil baddies soil themselves.
and like my DM stated your roleplaying is easy, because your Char has certain imperatives...

Soooo, except for extreme min-max groups, you‘re going to be fine whatever you choose, can roll with the punches and adapt to the groups needs (heal-damage-utility) as you level up.

[DevilMcam]

has an AC of 23 (28 with shield reaction)

Playing a paladin myself I am currious, howdo you get 23 base AC?

[Keravath]

Playing a paladin myself I am curious, how do you get 23 base AC?

I would guess that they have 23AC via magic items or spells.

A paladin in plate+shield+defensive fighting style is 21AC.

Choose two magic items from a shield+1, armor+1 or ring/cloak of protection and you will be at 23AC.

Alternateively, if they like to cast shield of faith going into combat then they will have 23AC without magic items.

[paladinn]

I would guess that they have 23AC via magic items or spells.

A paladin in plate+shield+defensive fighting style is 21AC.

Choose two magic items from a shield+1, armor+1 or ring/cloak of protection and you will be at 23AC.

Alternateively, if they like to cast shield of faith going into combat then they will have 23AC without magic items.

I know a lot of players build their characters assuming that they will obtain certain magic items by certain levels. I don't think it's wise to assume that. When I build a character, it's with the assumption that I'm not going to get squat for magic items. That way I'm never disappointed; and if/when I get something, it's all gravy.

[Keravath]

I know a lot of players build their characters assuming that they will obtain certain magic items by certain levels. I don't think it's wise to assume that. When I build a character, it's with the assumption that I'm not going to get squat for magic items. That way I'm never disappointed; and if/when I get something, it's all gravy.

Agreed, planning on magic items is risky, though as I mentioned, any paladin can take the defensive fighting style, wear plate mail and a shield and cast the Shield of Faith spell for 23AC. If they multiclass hexblade they can add the shield spell to that for 28AC in a pinch and it doesn't require anything extra.

[Honk]

Agreed, planning on magic items is risky, though as I mentioned, any paladin can take the defensive fighting style, wear plate mail and a shield and cast the Shield of Faith spell for 23AC. If they multiclass hexblade they can add the shield spell to that for 28AC in a pinch and it doesn't require anything extra.

Plate+1, shield +1, and defensive style.

But even without AC21 is tough to crack, shield of faith on top and shield reaction in a pinch, if one sprinkles in some more magic, that’s how you define tank.
The warlock cheese is not really my style, hard to sell off ones soul to some shady pimp, while being the chosen servant of a god... just my 2ct.

[paladinn]

Plate+1, shield +1, and defensive style.

But even without AC21 is tough to crack, shield of faith on top and shield reaction in a pinch, if one sprinkles in some more magic, that’s how you define tank.
The warlock cheese is not really my style, hard to sell off ones soul to some shady pimp, while being the chosen servant of a god... just my 2ct.

Divine soul and you still get Shield, and Bob's your uncle, not your patron:)

[Honk]

Divine soul and you still get Shield, and Bob's your uncle, not your patron:)

Level 8 Conquest Pala of Kelemvor and since Friday level 3 divine soul sorcerer... can’t wait to behead the next bbe with hastened hold person and double max smite 😇😈😇
And getting the fear spell is also funny. Enemies attacking against AC23 with disadvantage, I lost control once, dropped my sword and punched the undead ape, laughing maniacally, while it flailed at me in helpless despair.
DM sickened my soul Guardian on me, who gave me a stern talking to, about duty and being knightly...😓

[Keravath]

Plate+1, shield +1, and defensive style.

But even without AC21 is tough to crack, shield of faith on top and shield reaction in a pinch, if one sprinkles in some more magic, that’s how you define tank.
The warlock cheese is not really my style, hard to sell off ones soul to some shady pimp, while being the chosen servant of a god... just my 2ct.

That's what celestial warlock is for (though you don't pick up the shield spell that way ... so you need divine soul sorcerer in the mix too :) ).

Paladins in 5e derive their power from their oaths ... they don't have to be a chosen servant of a god unless that is what the player wants the character to be ...

P.S. I am currently playing a level 5 devotion paladin who will likely multiclass into celestial warlock and divine soul sorcerer to take the concept to its limit :)

[paladinn]

That's what celestial warlock is for (though you don't pick up the shield spell that way ... so you need divine soul sorcerer in the mix too :) ).

Paladins in 5e derive their power from their oaths ... they don't have to be a chosen servant of a god unless that is what the player wants the character to be ...

P.S. I am currently playing a level 5 devotion paladin who will likely multiclass into celestial warlock and divine soul sorcerer to take the concept to its limit :)

I agree, celestial warlock is much more appropriate thematically. But one of the main points of going warlock, especially hexblade, is to take advantage of the CHA-SADness. One level dip into HB gets a Lot of benefits.

As the hexblade is written, the blade in question is a powerful sentient weapon. I don't believe there are any limits on alignment; so why wouldn't a lawful/good blade reach out to a paladin that is already on board? Especially if said paladin has some celestial influence in his/her background (divine soul).

That's exactly how I built my sorlocadin. Most fun I've ever had with one specific character.

p.s. If you do go HB, Vengeance paladin works Really well:)

[Keravath]

I agree, celestial warlock is much more appropriate thematically. But one of the main points of going warlock, especially hexblade, is to take advantage of the CHA-SADness. One level dip into HB gets a Lot of benefits.

As the hexblade is written, the blade in question is a powerful sentient weapon. I don't believe there are any limits on alignment; so why wouldn't a lawful/good blade reach out to a paladin that is already on board? Especially if said paladin has some celestial influence in his/her background (divine soul).

That's exactly how I built my sorlocadin. Most fun I've ever had with one specific character.

p.s. If you do go HB, Vengeance paladin works Really well:)

True ... vengeance and hexblade can be a great thematic fit :)

However, the hexblade patron is written up in a very indirect manner. It doesn't have to be some sentient weapon though that is one of the common representations of the patron.

"You have made your pact with a mysterious entity from the Shadowfell—a force that manifests in sentient magic weapons carved from the stuff of shadow. The mighty sword Blaclrrazor is the most notable of these weapons, which have been spread across the multiverse over the ages. The shadowy force behind these weapons can offer power to warlocks who form pacts with it. Many hexblade warlocks create weapons that emulate those formed in the Shadowfell. Others forgo such arms, content to weave the dark magic of that plane into their spellcasting.
Because the Raven Queen is known to have forged the first of these weapons, many sages speculate that she and the force are one and that the weapons, along with hexblade warlocks, are tools she uses to manipulate events on the Material Plane to her inscrutable ends."

The patron is the mysterious entity from the Shadowfell. It doesn't have to be any sort of sentient weapon. Yes, it is believed that this entity has distributed sentient weapons across the planes to do their bidding but the text makes it pretty clear the warlock doesn't have to have such a weapon, they don't necessarily make their pact with a weapon, and in some (many) cases might try to create a weapon to emulate them (which would not be needed if they actually had one). Since the patron is "a mysterious entity from the Shadowfell", there is some room for creativity in defining the patron for any given character. Although most might be oriented towards darkness, you could imagine some entity from the Shadowfell working to bring light into the darkness which might be a suitable patron for a more good aligned paladin. Perhaps this entity creates blades of light that bring light to the darkness and reduce the darkness in the world?

Anyway, it is mostly fluff and open to interpretation ... but it is pretty clear that the patron does not have to be the weapon itself, it can be the creator of a weapon or even another entity from the Shadowfell.