Help me optimize a Slightly buffed Shugenja - Full Power, low cheese, limited 3.P

[GrayDeath]

Hey there, its me again.

You might remember my Summonor Thread. Yeah, DM crashed it.

Changed the Setup as follows:

We are still allowed and encouraged to optimize and go for High Power (without any Cheese noticable, meaning a very very slight amount might slip^^), but limited in Class choices now.

The only one that still interested me was the Shugenja, which is modified as follows:

1.: Gain Access to their Elements Domain as a Cleric of the Same Level, additionally add one more related Domain at Levels 8 and 14.

2.: Assume all Sorcerer Spells that ONLY manipulate that one Element to be part of their Spell List and hence choosable at the same Level a Sorcerer would get them.

3.: metamagic MAY be easier for Spells only manipulating that element (still talking, sounds a bit unclear atm).

Thats it.

So, under these bonuses, and with all regular PF Races open (if ewe take Underpowered ones we are allowed to add one additional +2 ability mod or one BBonus feat, otherwise all basic), how would you optimize and why?

Addendum: While it is not a big enough part that it would crash a build, I prefer to Play Earth or Fire Shugenja. ^^

Now for my first in the D&D Edition....

Addendum 2: Starting Level is 6, we expect 6-8 sessions, each ending with a Levelup.


Thank you all in advance.

Edited for late night typos, sorry. ^^

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Consider going with a Water Shugenja and pick Cold for your first associated domain. This gets you the utility and healing water spells from the Shugenja list, but also offensive cold spells from the Sorcerer list. Ray of Ice deals damage and sticks the target to the ground, and Sleet Storm is one of the better crowd controls.

Searching an index of 3.5 Sorcerer spells, which sadly includes duplicates due to reprints, I'm seeing the following counts for each spell descriptor:

Water: 21
Air: 24
Earth: 58
Cold: 80
Fire: 100

Granted there are spells that would be fitting for one or more of those that don't have the relevant descriptor, such as Fly for air or Water Breathing for water or Control Weather for cold and/or air.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Hmm, I know Fire Shugenjas can qualify for the Stormcaster prestige class even without the extra spells your DM is giving them, which gives you some cool options and defenses.

[Nousos]

Is Magic of Rokugan allowed? It was made specifically for shugenjas and the spells are fun and flavorful, and mostly weak.

With my favorite exception: Importune Kami 1-9
You cast it to summon a spirit of your element out of an object it would reside in. It demands cheap favor, and if you agree casts ANY spell (of that element) even ones that you do not know. It casts at 1/2 your caster level with a flat save DC, and drains a tiny amount of xp.

Lots of limitations, but an amazing utility spell. (in my opinion, but I've never gotten to use this book in game so who knows)

Edit-There are guidelines for favors based on what each type of element often request but DMs can be fickle so your results may vary.

[Maat Mons]

Playing an earth Shugenja means you lose access to air spells. That means no flight, teleportation, divination, illusion, or Haste. I would not go that route.

Playing a fire Shugenja means losing most of the spells that aren't also on the Sorcerer spell list. So I'd typically ask, "why not play a Sorcerer instead?" But you mentioned class restrictions, so maybe you're not allowed to play a Sorcerer.

Even so, the fire element is mostly about dealing damage. And your DM is giving you access to some parts of the Sorcerer spell list. If you play a water Shugenja, you're mostly just giving up damage-dealing spells. If you want damage-dealing spells, I'm confident that you can find some from the Sorcerer spell list that suit air, earth, or water. So just use your DM's houserule to access those. No real loss then.



Awhile back, I tried to work out what the spells known of a 20th-level Shugenja might look like. The results weren't as good as I was hoping they'd be. But here's what I came up with.

Water (Forbidding Wasteland)
0: Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Ghost Sound, Guidance, Mage Hand, Mending, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic
1: Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Endure Elements, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Remove Fear
2: Fog Cloud, Glitterdust, Hold Person, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Scent
3: Dispel Magic, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Remove Curse, Lesser Restoration
4: Air Walk, Death Ward, Neutralize Poison, Phantom Stag, Restoration
5: Dance of the Unicorn, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Scrying, Wall of Ice
6: Control Weather, Heal, Stoneskin, True Seeing
7: Flesh to Stone, Greater Restoration, Resurrection, Greater Scrying
8: Discern Location, Horrid Wilting, Regenerate, Greater Teleport
9: Etherealness, Shambler, Summon Nature's Ally IX, True Resurrection

You've got generous house rules though, so I'm sure you can do way better.



So, is your DM only letting you grab Sorcerer spells that are explicitly tagged as Air, Earth, Fire, or Water?

Or is he expanding it to include the associated damage types? (Acid for Earth, Cold for Water, and Electricity for Air.)

Or is he letting you use anything that keeps to the themes that the Shugena spell list establishes?
Air: Divination, illusion, and travel
Earth: Enhancement, imprisonment, plants, protection, and repair
Fire: Confusion, electricity, and light
Water: Communication, detection, healing, and purification

[GrayDeath]

Is Magic of Rokugan allowed? It was made specifically for shugenjas and the spells are fun and flavorful, and mostly weak.

With my favorite exception: Importune Kami 1-9
You cast it to summon a spirit of your element out of an object it would reside in. It demands cheap favor, and if you agree casts ANY spell (of that element) even ones that you do not know. It casts at 1/2 your caster level with a flat save DC, and drains a tiny amount of xp.

Lots of limitations, but an amazing utility spell. (in my opinion, but I've never gotten to use this book in game so who knows)

Edit-There are guidelines for favors based on what each type of element often request but DMs can be fickle so your results may vary.

Yes, that book is in, though I dont have it, so every suggestion retgarding taking something from it should be very precise.
That line of spells sounds as if it should be part of any Shugenjas List, indeed.

I`ll talk to the DM.


Playing an earth Shugenja means you lose access to air spells. That means no flight, teleportation, divination, illusion, or Haste. I would not go that route.

Playing a fire Shugenja means losing most of the spells that aren't also on the Sorcerer spell list. So I'd typically ask, "why not play a Sorcerer instead?" But you mentioned class restrictions, so maybe you're not allowed to play a Sorcerer.

Even so, the fire element is mostly about dealing damage. And your DM is giving you access to some parts of the Sorcerer spell list. If you play a water Shugenja, you're mostly just giving up damage-dealing spells. If you want damage-dealing spells, I'm confident that you can find some from the Sorcerer spell list that suit air, earth, or water. So just use your DM's houserule to access those. No real loss then.



Awhile back, I tried to work out what the spells known of a 20th-level Shugenja might look like. The results weren't as good as I was hoping they'd be. But here's what I came up with.

Water (Forbidding Wasteland)
0: Create Water, Cure Minor Wounds, Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Ghost Sound, Guidance, Mage Hand, Mending, Purify Food and Drink, Read Magic
1: Bless, Cure Light Wounds, Endure Elements, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Remove Fear
2: Fog Cloud, Glitterdust, Hold Person, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Scent
3: Dispel Magic, Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Remove Curse, Lesser Restoration
4: Air Walk, Death Ward, Neutralize Poison, Phantom Stag, Restoration
5: Dance of the Unicorn, Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Scrying, Wall of Ice
6: Control Weather, Heal, Stoneskin, True Seeing
7: Flesh to Stone, Greater Restoration, Resurrection, Greater Scrying
8: Discern Location, Horrid Wilting, Regenerate, Greater Teleport
9: Etherealness, Shambler, Summon Nature's Ally IX, True Resurrection

You've got generous house rules though, so I'm sure you can do way better.



I hope so, looks good already though.

And I intended to write AIR or Fire. Dang, being tired and suddenly having to switch what one is asking help for suck.




So, is your DM only letting you grab Sorcerer spells that are explicitly tagged as Air, Earth, Fire, or Water?

Or is he expanding it to include the associated damage types? (Acid for Earth, Cold for Water, and Electricity for Air.)

Or is he letting you use anything that keeps to the themes that the Shugena spell list establishes?
Air: Divination, illusion, and travel
Earth: Enhancement, imprisonment, plants, protection, and repair
Fire: Confusion, electricity, and light
Water: Communication, detection, healing, and purification

I can grab the following:

At Level 1 I gain the Domain of my Element. Including everything a Cleric would gain from it (Slot, Ability, Spells, etc).

Starting Level 2 (as I only have the element then, he argues, not arguing back, works ^^) I can now ALSO choose for SPells known any Sorcerer Spell that is soleley of that Elelement.

So say a Fireball for Fire, or Sleet Storm for Water. Not Spells that are part of a Subdomain until see below though

At levels 8 and 14, if we reach them I can again:

Grab any one Cleric Domain that is linked to/ad Subdomain of my Element.
So for Water I could grab Cold or for Air Lighnting and so on.
Again as if I was a Cleric, with the Feat and so on.

So, to slightly change the Direction: I want to be a Air or Fire Shigenja, though Water would also work (need to change some background though) under the abovementioned Rules.

Racewise, I thought I would choose Half Elf and aim for optimizatzion via Feat and Ability Stacking Bonus to Cha. Ideas?

Since I get it at the end of the second Session, we can opütimize with the second Domain in Mind, but when reaching the 3rd itlls likely only be end game left, if that.

Help me optimize it to the Wazoo. :)

[GrayDeath]

Slight Bump.

I have one week left, guys and Gals, and am still very open to detailed suggestions. :)

[Maat Mons]

It would probably be useful to brainstorm elemental spells that you might want to borrow from the Sorcerer list. I'm not familiar enough with Pathfinder spells to help with that. ... Unless you're also allowed to pick from 3.5 Sorcerer spells?

I'm also not familiar enough with Pathfinder feats to give suggestions. ... Again, unless you're also allowed to pick 3.5 feats.

What exactly constitutes an "underpowerd" race? Can you apply the houserules +2 to an ability that the underpowered race already gives a bonus to?

Since you're using Pathfinder rules, has your DM created any alternative favored class bonuses for Shugenja? Sorcerer and Oracle both have one for humans (and half-elves and half-orcs) that gives an extra spell known every level. It's a very nice benefit.

[GrayDeath]

Spells that exist in 3.5 and have NO equivalent (or a very close approximation as many pf spells actually are) can be suggested, I cant count on them being allowed though.

No Imported Feats except the martial ones, for maretial characteres only of course.

Underpowered Races are for now: half Elf, Half Orc, Dwarf. If in doubt, similar usefulness.

Doubling up for Ability Bonuses is allowed onl yif the race also has a clear weakness (no idea how he differates that from Underpowered racve?).

FCB for Shugenja is +1 Spell known for every 3 Levels for all Races, if we dont want Skillpts/HP (he normally takes the best FCB and allows it for all clearly fgocussed/not T1 Classes, so my co players can expect similar things.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If this is for a Pathfinder game, you should put that in the thread's subject line, or at least in your first post. The only official Shugenja class is in 3.5 so the PF gurus are likely skipping over this one.



FCB for Shugenja is +1 Spell known for every 3 Levels for all Races, if we dont want Skillpts/HP (he normally takes the best FCB and allows it for all clearly fgocussed/not T1 Classes, so my co players can expect similar things.

That seems pretty weak, considering a Human Sorcerer or Oracle gets +1 spell known per class level, but not higher level than one below your current highest level spells.

[GrayDeath]

No Reduced Level of Spell known here. ;)
And since he already gives me Domains....


Also, this is a pathfinder Game, but with (in 2 of 3 player cases) Old 3.5 Classes.

So its not quite easy to put in the Name, but I`ll try.

[Maat Mons]

Do the extra spells known from favored class bonus have any special interaction with the rule that half your spells known must be from your favored element?

Are the domain spells just added to your class spell list? Or are they also bonus spells known?

If you're considering more descriptive thread titles, I might suggest "[Player Help] Buffed 3.5 Shugenja in Pathfinder Game." Or maybe "[Pathfinder] Help Building Character with Ported 3.5 Shugenja." Or "[Pathfinder] Using Ported Shugenja Class."

[GrayDeath]

Do the extra spells known from favored class bonus have any special interaction with the rule that half your spells known must be from your favored element?

Are the domain spells just added to your class spell list? Or are they also bonus spells known?

If you're considering more descriptive thread titles, I might suggest "[Player Help] Buffed 3.5 Shugenja in Pathfinder Game." Or maybe "[Pathfinder] Help Building Character with Ported 3.5 Shugenja." Or "[Pathfinder] Using Ported Shugenja Class."

@ 2: As I wrote above, in 2 different posts (granted with differing detail), I get everything a Cleric would gain. That includes Feats, Spells, and a DOMAIN SLOT.

So, my Domains work EXACTLY like a Clerics Domains. And have NOTHING at all to do with my normal Spells.


@ 1: Extra Spells must follow the basic Rules (eg no opposite Element) but not the "Half must be of Element" Limitation.
They may however also be from the Sorcerer List IF they follow the "Element Restriction" posted above.

And title has been modified. :)