[PF] Are firearms any good?

[Primal Fury]

I was doing a bit of research for a gunslinger rework and I came across a post that stated that one of the reasons were considered such a low tier (tier 5 for the purposes of the thread I was reading) was that the firearms in Pathfinder are the hottest of hot, smelly garbage.

Is this true? If so, why? How could something like this be fixed?

[CharonsHelper]

In Pathfinder, firearms are great for gunslingers, but they're terrible for everyone else. That's working as intended.

And while raw damage is never considered top tier, a gunslinger can dish out damage with the best of them. Their total damage is a bit lower than an archer, but they do it with TOUCH ATTACKS!

[Primal Fury]

But why aren't they just useful in general? Why do you need to play a gunslinger to get the most out of them?

[stack]

The damage is low unless you get DEX to damage, which gunslinger and a few archetypes grant. Gunslinger also gives ways to mitigate jamming and loading issues. High level guns are useless if you can't full attack (or are adding a spell or something).

Edit: I would say they can be reliable damage dealers, putting them in tier 4 as I understand the system.

[vasilidor]

also does not help that there is an official nerf to deadly aim that says you do not get to use it with touch attacks. was not that way when pathfinder first started and paizo actually encouraged casters to use it with things like scorching ray. but guns come out? a full attack class with access to touch attacks on a reliable basis? even if they never get their full round attacks when doing so? NERF DEADLY AIM!
yeah, i have a habit of ignoring a lot of paizo's errata.

[Firebug]

also does not help that there is an official nerf to deadly aim that says you do not get to use it with touch attacks. was not that way when pathfinder first started and paizo actually encouraged casters to use it with things like scorching ray. but guns come out? a full attack class with access to touch attacks on a reliable basis? even if they never get their full round attacks when doing so? NERF DEADLY AIM!
yeah, i have a habit of ignoring a lot of paizo's errata.Except for Firearms. Its in the Early Firearms rules. You can totally Deadly Aim with a gun. Deadly Aim is the literal example they use.

[Endarire]

Firearms are made - at least somewhat - to be balanced against bows. Firearms attack touch AC, but are generally expensive, inconvenient, and unpleasant to use.

[Calthropstu]

Another problem with firearms:
Each shot costs 10 gp plus 1 sp. You are literally shooting money at your opponents.

[Firebug]

Another problem with firearms:
Each shot costs 10 gp plus 1 sp. You are literally shooting money at your opponents.And the Gunsmithing (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Gunsmithing) feat which Gunslingers and most Archetypes get for free, cuts that to 10%, so 1.1 gp per shot.

Considering my bow users end up using special ammo(pheremone 15gp, splintercloud 25gp, tangleshot 20gp) anyway, its not that far off. And besides, once a fetch quest starts giving you thousands of gold, does it matter?

[Duff]

How could something like this be fixed?
Moving on to the other half of OP, simplest option would be "Make guns better" or "Make Gunslingers Better"
For guns -
Increase basic damage
Give +s to hit
Make gun feats better

For Gunslingers
Easiest would be to give more skills to improve out of combat utility
But you could give them feats that allow them to do the "Social side" of gunslinger life. EG "Terrorise community" - Ordinary civilians must make a will check or they must obey your commands

[Kurald Galain]

I came across a post that stated that one of the reasons were considered such a low tier (tier 5 for the purposes of the thread I was reading) was that the firearms in Pathfinder are the hottest of hot, smelly garbage.
Frankly, that argument sounds like standard Paizo bashing; I've been on this forum for years and I've never seen that argument before.

The reason gunslingers are often disliked is that (1) while the class deals pretty good damage, it doesn't do anything else; and (2) quite a lot of people don't want guns in their fantasy.

And yes, to use guns effectively you need certain class features, which the gunslinger gets but most other classes don't.

[Necroticplague]

Except for Firearms. Its in the Early Firearms rules. You can totally Deadly Aim with a gun. Deadly Aim is the literal example they use.

Because firearms aren't touch attacks. They're normal attacks that happen to hit touch AC.

Which, I think makes them also play extra-nicely with Called Shots.

Anyway, to go back to the main topic: yeah, with Gunslinger, they do their job well: they damage. The problem with Gunslinger is that that's basically all they do.

[AvatarVecna]

Early firearms have "range" the same way a dagger has range, have a better chance of breaking than critting, have absurdly expensive ammo even if you've got the Gunsmithing feat, reloading is a standard/full round action, and your ammo/firearm getting wet is a death sentence.

But you target touch within the first range increment, which means your damage is basically guaranteed to happen if nothing goes super-wrong, and you get x4 crits. And all of those downsides up there have small ways of offsetting them. Higher level characters can afford enough ammo to not worry about it, can get the feats/ammo/guns/features necessary to get free action reloading, can reduce misfire chance to zero with enough money, can get big damage bonuses from class features/feats, can extend their range enough to be really useful, and can improve their odds of critting. A lvl 1 gunslinger is ****ed. A lvl 6 gunslinger is a terrifying damage machine.

And they're T4, because while they're probably the most consistent damage dealers in the game, they've got basically nothing else going for them besides dealing lots of damage. d10 HD and two good saves (with their bad save tied to their secondary stat) means they're not totally screwed on defenses at least, but like...a gunslinger is only ever gonna be shooting their gun. Anything else is going to take serious effort to build in.

[aglondier]

Having played an archery ranger in a party with a gunslinger, I have to say it was greatly disheartening to hit far less often and for far less damage. Maybe it balances out in the late game, but through the first 8 levels there was no comparison.

[Madsamurai]

Gunslingers and guns in general are, in my opinion, bad by design. The gunslinger has above-the-curve base damage but it's balanced by being unreliable and sometimes Havering his guns explode.

So when the player is lucky, he looks totally broken to everyone. But when he gets unlucky, his character spends half his turns cleaning his gun. So the result is that with a gunslinger in the party, someone is always unhappy, though over a campaign it probably averages out to balanced.

My "fix" for guns would be to change them to single-shot-per-turn weapons. Maybe Swift action reloads. Then use the level one gunslinger deed that has you make all your attacks in one shot as their default attack mode. So guns become a reliable but lower damage weapon that is a good vehicle for delivering status effects.

Then I'd completely rewrite the gunslinger to have a bunch of trick-shot abilities, mobility, and mental fortitude. Drawing on The Dark Tower and Westerns for inspiration.

[Kurald Galain]

So when the player is lucky, he looks totally broken to everyone. But when he gets unlucky, his character spends half his turns cleaning his gun.
That doesn't strike me as a strong argument. With a few lucky rolls, basically any class can look totally broken.

Like, I've seen two games where a new player's first attack just happened to be a crit with a x3 weapon, dealing 50-ish damage where everybody else was in the mid-tens. That looks zomg overpowered but it's really not.

But it's a fair point that a high risk / high reward class is generally a lot of fun for that player and for the GM, but generally not for the rest of the group; the most common example being the wild mage.

[CharonsHelper]

Having played an arcery ranger in a party with a gunslinger, I have to say it was greatly disheartening to hit far less often and for far less damage. Maybe it balances out in the late game, but through the first 8 levels there was no comparison.

It's generally easier to build a top damage output gunslinger than an archer, but I've seen the math, and against standard AC things their damage is pretty comparable. Gunslinger is better against big beefy things with good AC and bad touch AC where getting within a single range increment is safe - which is unfortunately what some GMs like to run.

But the Ranger will also have to use spells and whatnot to keep up, just like the Ranger would need spells to keep up with another archer who is a Fighter or a Slayer, because both of them have more static damage/accuracy boosts.

[Calthropstu]

And the Gunsmithing (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Gunsmithing) feat which Gunslingers and most Archetypes get for free, cuts that to 10%, so 1.1 gp per shot.

Considering my bow users end up using special ammo(pheremone 15gp, splintercloud 25gp, tangleshot 20gp) anyway, its not that far off. And besides, once a fetch quest starts giving you thousands of gold, does it matter?

Actually it does. By that time, you're blasting rapid fire high end bullets. The cost can get in excess of 1000 gp per day.

[Seto]

Do not use early firearms as a non-gunslinger. But as a gunslinger, they're usable.

Gunslinger is a fine class for most tables' level of optimization. It hits often which feels good as a player, it has a good chassis, it depends on DEX and WIS which are good stats, and it's hard to mess up when you build one. Just get into your first range increment and fire.
I'd say the two main problems with it are:
-1. Firearms can be daunting. They're a system apart, expensive to maintain and they have a chance of exploding. There are a number of "trap" options as well: a lot of firearms are objectively inferior to others. Might as well stick to pistol or musket (scatter weapons are weird). But mostly, they're tough on your action economy. What you NEED as a gunslinger is a way to reload fast enough to get as many attacks as possible. Free action reload is pretty much a requirement, especially considering that gunslingers benefit quite a bit from the different options that increase your number of attacks (Rapid Shot) or your damage (Deadly Aim) at the cost of your to-hit bonus. You're firing against touch AC, you'll hit anyway.
-2. Gunslingers' class abilities don't stack up very well once your reach mid levels. It's very frontloaded. It's an excellent early class, but a lot of Gunslingers will want to multiclass and not look back once they get DEX to damage at level 5. A Gunslinger/Inquisitor, or Gunslinger/Slayer etc. will often make a better gunslinger than a straight Gunslinger, which is notable in Pathfinder, a system known for incentivizing staying in your class until level 20. On the bright side, that means that you can play firearms with a lot of different classes if you don't mind delaying your concept: just take Gunslinger for the first 5 levels, then continue on your preferred path.

[CharonsHelper]

Actually it does. By that time, you're blasting rapid fire high end bullets. The cost can get in excess of 1000 gp per day.

You're making 1000 attacks per day!?

Even if you're TWF and making 6ish attacks per round, that would mean that you have 200 rounds of combat each day.

An average fight lasts 5ish rounds, and you usually have 4-6 fights in a day. That'd be about 25 rounds of combat on average. That's 150 attacks, or 155 gold. Not cheap, but by the time you have 6+ attacks in a round (level 11ish) it's not a huge deal either.

[Firebug]

When you start to consider quick drawing another gun over reloading or clearing a misfire because its faster, you don't really have issues with ammo costs compared to gun costs.

One of my friends played a "deadpool" type gunslinger in PFS, and lets just say he had a dozen guns available to him with 6 shots a piece(pepperbox). He was two-weapon fighting with some shenanigans to turn the cylinder with a free hand (that I can't remember off the top of my head). When one misfired he'd drop it and quick draw another rather than deal with clearing it. I don't remember exactly how many attacks he was making a turn, but it was at least 9 (BAB, Haste, TWF, Rapid Shot). TWF is why gunslingers can do more damage than Archery, because they simply get more attacks. Who cares about d6 vs d10 when you are adding +20(or more) static damage anyway? That actually reminds me of a fight where he got dominated and was about to unload all of his attacks on the party, and the whip-disarm guy had enough Op Attacks to disarm almost all of his guns as he was firing them.

When you are level 12 and the adventure gives you 10,000 gp, that's a lot of bullets... or 3 more pepperboxes.

Back to the OP. Medium actually make decent gunslingers, because they get extra attacks, static damage, and weapon proficiencies for free with Champion. Mediums make decent martials in general actually. But I agree that there is little to keep you in the Gunslinger class beyond 5. Granted, Str/Dex/Con bleed is interesting at 11... but often overlooked.

[AvatarVecna]

You're making 1000 attacks per day!?

Even if you're TWF and making 6ish attacks per round, that would mean that you have 200 rounds of combat each day.

An average fight lasts 5ish rounds, and you usually have 4-6 fights in a day. That'd be about 25 rounds of combat on average. That's 150 attacks, or 155 gold. Not cheap, but by the time you have 6+ attacks in a round (level 11ish) it's not a huge deal either.

You missed "high end" bullets. Adamantine bullets (not even enchanted, just adamantine) are 61 gp to buy, or 6.1 gp to craft via Gunsmithing. Alchemical cartridges cost half market price to craft, so they range from 6 gp to craft (paper cartridges) to 20 gp to craft (dragon's breath or entangling cartridges). Paper cartridges are the gold standard because they make free action reloading easier/possible, and 150 shots of that is 900 gp a day on its own, assuming you're crafting it yourself.

[Calthropstu]

You're making 1000 attacks per day!?

Even if you're TWF and making 6ish attacks per round, that would mean that you have 200 rounds of combat each day.

An average fight lasts 5ish rounds, and you usually have 4-6 fights in a day. That'd be about 25 rounds of combat on average. That's 150 attacks, or 155 gold. Not cheap, but by the time you have 6+ attacks in a round (level 11ish) it's not a huge deal either.

Using normal bullets you'd be correct. But at that level normal bullets don't cut it. Adamantine, cold iron, silver... it takes its toll. 6 attacks per round at 5gp per attack, 30 * 5 rounds is 150. That's 150 per combat. Just on your weapon. That you already paid to be magical.

[Madsamurai]

That doesn't strike me as a strong argument. With a few lucky rolls, basically any class can look totally broken.

Like, I've seen two games where a new player's first attack just happened to be a crit with a x3 weapon, dealing 50-ish damage where everybody else was in the mid-tens. That looks zomg overpowered but it's really not.

But it's a fair point that a high risk / high reward class is generally a lot of fun for that player and for the GM, but generally not for the rest of the group; the most common example being the wild mage.

My gunslinger experience was before they nerfed the double pistol. So take this with a grain of salt.

By "lucky" I mostly meant "didn't misfire." That's more likely then "Crit with a scythe."

The issue is there is no middle ground. Most of the time your axe wielding barbarian does normal damage, and sometimes crits. The 'slinger is always doing silly things or nothing.

[CharonsHelper]

You missed "high end" bullets. Adamantine bullets (not even enchanted, just adamantine) are 61 gp to buy, or 6.1 gp to craft via Gunsmithing. Alchemical cartridges cost half market price to craft, so they range from 6 gp to craft (paper cartridges) to 20 gp to craft (dragon's breath or entangling cartridges). Paper cartridges are the gold standard because they make free action reloading easier/possible, and 150 shots of that is 900 gp a day on its own, assuming you're crafting it yourself.


Using normal bullets you'd be correct. But at that level normal bullets don't cut it. Adamantine, cold iron, silver... it takes its toll. 6 attacks per round at 5gp per attack, 30 * 5 rounds is 150. That's 150 per combat. Just on your weapon. That you already paid to be magical.

Ah - see, I figured that by that level every Gunslinger would have grabbed Clustered Shots and then not really worry about special ammo. Sure, they have to deal with DR, but even 15 DR doesn't matter much against all of their attacks combined.

[Kurald Galain]

Using normal bullets you'd be correct. But at that level normal bullets don't cut it. Adamantine, cold iron, silver... it takes its toll. 6 attacks per round at 5gp per attack, 30 * 5 rounds is 150. That's 150 per combat. Just on your weapon. That you already paid to be magical.

Unless your GM is deliberately messing with you, even at level 11 creatures with DR/silver, /cold iron, or /adamantine should be fairly rare. So I don't buy that gunslingers spend that much on bullets, on average.

[Calthropstu]

Unless your GM is deliberately messing with you, even at level 11 creatures with DR/silver, /cold iron, or /adamantine should be fairly rare. So I don't buy that gunslingers spend that much on bullets, on average.

Well, when you attack the golem factories...

[CharonsHelper]

Unless your GM is deliberately messing with you, even at level 11 creatures with DR/silver, /cold iron, or /adamantine should be fairly rare. So I don't buy that gunslingers spend that much on bullets, on average.

And by level 11, cold iron & silver would likely be non-issues as I would think that you have +3 weapons by then. Though possibly not +5 weapons.

[Calthropstu]

And by level 11, cold iron & silver would likely be non-issues as I would think that you have +3 weapons by then. Though possibly not +5 weapons.

Most people do +1 with extra bonus abilities rather than +3. It's great for dealing damage, bad for overcoming dr.

[vasilidor]

in pathfinder they made it so that having a plus on your weapon would auto bypass certain forms of damage reduction.
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/special-abilities/
DR Type Weapon Enhancement
Bonus Equivalent
Cold iron / silver +3
Adamantine* +4
Alignment-based +5
so it may be worth while to get that +5 rifle.

[Kurald Galain]

Most people do +1 with extra bonus abilities rather than +3. It's great for dealing damage, bad for overcoming dr.

Yes, and this is a reason why certain classes should reconsider that.

[vasilidor]

i consider overcoming DR as more important than, say, +1d6 fire damage or most other special abilities. even an extra attack from a speed weapon is not worth much in the face of being able to bypass damage reduction in many cases. now a bane weapon in a campaign that has a decent amount of foes for which that bane is viable against could be worth more depending on the campaign, as bane weapons get their plus increased against those monsters.

[AvatarVecna]

Ah - see, I figured that by that level every Gunslinger would have grabbed Clustered Shots and then not really worry about special ammo. Sure, they have to deal with DR, but even 15 DR doesn't matter much against all of their attacks combined.


Unless your GM is deliberately messing with you, even at level 11 creatures with DR/silver, /cold iron, or /adamantine should be fairly rare. So I don't buy that gunslingers spend that much on bullets, on average.

And if you actually finished reading my post, adamantine bullets were my first example, but not the most prominent or common IMO. That honor goes to alchemical paper cartridges, which reduce reload action by one step. Those cartridges are vital to getting free action reloading, and they're 12gp a pop - 6gp if you craft 'em yourself. 6gp at 150 shots a day is 900 gp a day, and that's crafting them yourself.

EDIT: In fairness, all alchemical cartridges reduce that action by a step, so it's possible you're using one of the more expensive ones. But plain paper is the cheapest option, and the one touted in OW WOW WOULD YOU LOOK AT THAT EVERY GUNSLINGER HANDBOOK WOWIE.

[Kurald Galain]

6gp at 150 shots a day is 900 gp a day

Why on earth are you making 150 shots per day?

A more realistic number would be 10-12 rounds of combat per day, two or three attacks per round. That's 20-36 shots, not 150.

[AvatarVecna]

Why on earth are you making 150 shots per day?

A more realistic number would be 10-12 rounds of combat per day, two or three attacks per round. That's 20-36 shots, not 150.


You're making 1000 attacks per day!?

Even if you're TWF and making 6ish attacks per round, that would mean that you have 200 rounds of combat each day.

An average fight lasts 5ish rounds, and you usually have 4-6 fights in a day. That'd be about 25 rounds of combat on average. That's 150 attacks, or 155 gold. Not cheap, but by the time you have 6+ attacks in a round (level 11ish) it's not a huge deal either.

I didn't make 150 shots the standard things were being held to, that was one of you two insisting that gunslinger isn't that expensive. Feel free to keep moving the goalposts though.

[Kurald Galain]

I didn't make 150 shots the standard things were being held to, that was one of you two insisting that gunslinger isn't that expensive. Feel free to keep moving the goalposts though.

Perhaps you should find out who actually said that before accusing people :smallamused:

[AvatarVecna]

Perhaps you should find out who actually said that before accusing people :smallamused:

I'm sorry, one of you three that are insisting it's not that expensive. But it's the number that initially came from the side of the argument you've been supporting. {Scrubbed}

[Morty]

There is something deeply amusing about firearms being more difficult and less intuitive to use than bows. Could be worse, though. At least they're not crossbows.

[AvatarVecna]

There is something deeply amusing about firearms being more difficult and less intuitive to use than bows. Could be worse, though. At least they're not crossbows.

I mean, it is antique firearms, by modern standards. I'm no expert on historical weaponry, but I'm to understand it's a bit of an ordeal to load, and that tbh even the default "full round action" that two-handed firearms have is extremely generous on the realism side of things. And despite guns and bows featuring in plenty of action movies, I'd probably have a better chance of using a bow than an antique pistol if I were to find either.

(I'd still use the bow poorly, because I'm pretty sure bows take a lot of practice to get good with, but "hard to use well" is different from "hard to even figure out how to load without blowing myself up".)

[Morphic tide]

I mean, it is antique firearms, by modern standards. I'm no expert on historical weaponry, but I'm to understand it's a bit of an ordeal to load, and that tbh even the default "full round action" that two-handed firearms have is extremely generous on the realism side of things. And despite guns and bows featuring in plenty of action movies, I'd probably have a better chance of using a bow than an antique pistol if I were to find either.

(I'd still use the bow poorly, because I'm pretty sure bows take a lot of practice to get good with, but "hard to use well" is different from "hard to even figure out how to load without blowing myself up".)

The actual bottleneck for firearms was firing mechanisms, taking the advent of the flintlock to take off, as before that they were much too expensive to produce at any real scale, and usage of the previous mechanisms was complicated. Loading, however, remained the same level of simplicity until cartridges became a thing to make it even easier, it just took a lot of time. Meanwhile, bows took years of training to be considered competent with, and the military longbows had such a draw weight that they warped the bones of the people using them.

My own opinion is that the two-handed firearms should be balanced as per-encounter weapons, while one-handed firearms and heavy crossbows get every other turn balance, then the Light Crossbow being merely on par with the Longbow and the Hand Crossbow being the same per-hit damage as the Light and much better critical, since you need a feat to use that at all. Balancing Quick Reload versus an extra feat of general ranged focus is the biggest issue surrounding the situation.

Of course, I'd also like higher-level weapons including the weird middle-ground firearm developments that answer loads of quality of life stuff, like Cookson Repeaters and having a triple weapon that's a high-quality polearm with a good firearm for a shaft. The bow counterpart would be dumping the same money into magic enhancement, rather than becoming increasingly Clockpunk.

[Tiktakkat]

I mean, it is antique firearms, by modern standards. I'm no expert on historical weaponry, but I'm to understand it's a bit of an ordeal to load, and that tbh even the default "full round action" that two-handed firearms have is extremely generous on the realism side of things. And despite guns and bows featuring in plenty of action movies, I'd probably have a better chance of using a bow than an antique pistol if I were to find either.

(I'd still use the bow poorly, because I'm pretty sure bows take a lot of practice to get good with, but "hard to use well" is different from "hard to even figure out how to load without blowing myself up".)

Well, no.
By historical standards, smoothbore, matchlock muskets were expected to have about half the rate of fire of self bows (longbows), about the same rate of fire as heavy crossbows.
Of course the game allows self bows to fire like machine guns with few build resources, while crossbows require shenanigans to get half as good, with firearms getting to explode on top of that.
The advantage muskets had was that any recruit could be passable with one, perhaps losing a shot per minute compared to a crossbowman, while a self bow required years of training, and a crossbowman made you hire a shield bearer and possibly a loader on top of the guy actually firing the weapon.


As for the whole discussion about spending 1,000 gp per day just on ammo, that misses the point.
It is not the cost per day, but the cost per level that matters.
At an expected 12-15 encounters per level, with perhaps 5 rounds of combat per encounter, and maybe 6 shots per round of combat, what you get is 360-450 rounds per level. At a ridiculous rate of 6 gp/round, that is 2,700 gp/level at the very high end. Within the expected range for consumables.
And yes, that is ridiculous - every round you fire is adamantine? I doubt that.
Not to mention getting 6 shots per round - dual wielding, rapid fire with pistols or something? Again, I doubt that.
So figure closer to 3 gp/round as an average cost, with 4 shots per round of combat, requiring around 300 round/level at a cost of 1,200 gp.

[Firebug]

Why on earth are you making 150 shots per day?

A more realistic number would be 10-12 rounds of combat per day, two or three attacks per round. That's 20-36 shots, not 150.Anecdotally, I already mentioned I had experience playing with a mid-upper teens-leveled gunslinger who was making at least 9 attacks per round, so that puts your estimate at 100 shots a day. But that was also at a higher level, where gold isn't hard to get, and he wasn't using alchemical cartridges because quickdraw.

That said, what about the regular bow user as I mentioned earlier. They are likely making 7-8 shots a round at that level (4 BAB, Haste, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Snap Shot). If they are not using Durable Arrows (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Arrow%20(durabl e))(1gp+special materials cost, but doesn't break through normal use), they are probably using Splintercloud(25gp), Pheromone(15gp), Tangleshot(20gp), Smoke(10gp), Raining(30gp), etc. And they don't get a 50-90% cost reduction.

[vasilidor]

in real world history guns eventually became cheaper per shot than arrows. and you can carry more ammunition for guns than you can for a bow.

[darkdragoon]

Between Dead Shot and Targeting making one strong shot seems the more obvious path that conserves grit, ammo and limits the impact of DR.

[Calthropstu]

Of course there are good firearms. Blessed and holy firearms exist after all.


in real world history guns eventually became cheaper per shot than arrows. and you can carry more ammunition for guns than you can for a bow.

until magic gets involved and then everything goes haywire.

[RifleAvenger]

Between Dead Shot and Targeting making one strong shot seems the more obvious path that conserves grit, ammo and limits the impact of DR.

Spending grit on Dead Shot comes nowhere close to the damage shooting multiple times on a full attack, grit free, does. Making several attacks is much stronger, making best use of Gun Training's DEX to damage and firearms hitting touch AC (meaning even low interatives have a good chance to hit). The best thing Dead Shot does is limit the chance of misfire, but it's such a hit to the one good thing that gunslingers have going for them (high DPR w/ great accuracy).

W/o 3rd party fixes, Dead Shot is a trap. Literally better to spend the grit on Quick Clear if the 'slinger misfires on a full attack. Getting things that reduce misfire, and/or convincing the GM that renaissance firearms are lame and they should skip to fantasy western, is a much better option. Gunslinger should have room for clustered shots by the time DR is common.

Targeting is neat, but it's not reliable enough, versatile enough, or supported enough (outside of 3rd party) to be the foundation of a build.

EDIT: I very much think Pathfinder intended early firearms to be "1 shot wonder" weapons. However, they didn't design for or support this idea nearly enough to make this a viable choice for gunslinger. Ranged Magus, Grenadier Alchemist, and Arcane Archer all accomplish "1 shot, 1 kill" better.

[Thunder999]

They take a lot of investment to make work, with their terrible reloading, ridiculous misfires (which are the sort of horrible crit fumble mechanic that always sucks) and poor range, but if you do (generally by playing a gunslinger with the right magic weapon abilities and alchemical cartridges) then they're dex to damage ranged weapons that can target touch AC and even be used with two weapon fighting.

A gunslinger who eliminates misfire chance on a pair of pistols, gets a third arm to reload them with, gets the reload down to a free action and is within the first ranged increment can put out a ludicrous number of attacks each with good damage and relying solely on dexterity.

For the most part you'd actually be better off as a bolt ace with a crossbow though, no misfires, better range and easier to reload while keeping that excellent dex to damage, you can even still TWF.

[CharonsHelper]

For the most part you'd actually be better off as a bolt ace with a crossbow though, no misfires, better range and easier to reload while keeping that excellent dex to damage, you can even still TWF.

Bolt ace doesn't get to target Touch AC though.

[Kitsuneymg]

Bolt ace doesn't get to target Touch AC though.

So the sharp shoot deed doesn’t exist?