Are individual spells comparable to an entire class feature?

[Greywander]

There are an awful lot of spells out there that I could see being rewritten as someone's class feature. Imagine, for example, a barbarian subclass with an Enlarge-like effect twice per long rest. Granted, spells are pretty niche, but some class features are pretty niche as well. And heck, if you look at the Sun Soul monk, they almost literally get Fireball as a class feature.

I know there are systems out there with a generic list of abilities, or even a build-your-own-ability system, and it's up to the player to decide "how" they have that ability. This kind of makes me think of that.

And perhaps this could explain the perceived disparity between martials and casters; each new spell a caster gets is effectively an extra class feature. It's true that casters generally have some empty levels, but these are usually the levels they get access to higher level spells, so it's not really a dead level.

Although, since spells use the same resources as each other, perhaps each spell level, rather than each spell, is more akin to a class feature. 1st level spellcasting is one feature that can be used between 2 to 4 times (depending on your level). Knowing more spells only creates more options for how it can be used, which is still pretty useful. Then again, several monk features only introduce new ways to use your ki, and spellcasting, instead of all running off the same resources, regularly gives you a new pool of resources (i.e. higher level spell slots) for your new spells.

What do you think? It's not uncommon for a class to have some ability that can be used one to three times between long rests, which is in line with each spell level. Most classes just don't get so many such feature (fighter gets Second Wind, Action Surge, and Indomitable, with perhaps one or two more from the subclass), and can only use them in one way. Currently, the rules seem to consider getting access to a new level of spells to be equivalent to a class feature (hence the empty levels), but is each individual spell closer in power to a class feature? Somewhere in between?

[LudicSavant]

There are an awful lot of spells out there that I could see being rewritten as someone's class feature. Imagine, for example, a barbarian subclass with an Enlarge-like effect twice per long rest. Granted, spells are pretty niche, but some class features are pretty niche as well. And heck, if you look at the Sun Soul monk, they almost literally get Fireball as a class feature.

I know there are systems out there with a generic list of abilities, or even a build-your-own-ability system, and it's up to the player to decide "how" they have that ability. This kind of makes me think of that.

And perhaps this could explain the perceived disparity between martials and casters; each new spell a caster gets is effectively an extra class feature. It's true that casters generally have some empty levels, but these are usually the levels they get access to higher level spells, so it's not really a dead level.

Although, since spells use the same resources as each other, perhaps each spell level, rather than each spell, is more akin to a class feature. 1st level spellcasting is one feature that can be used between 2 to 4 times (depending on your level). Knowing more spells only creates more options for how it can be used, which is still pretty useful. Then again, several monk features only introduce new ways to use your ki, and spellcasting, instead of all running off the same resources, regularly gives you a new pool of resources (i.e. higher level spell slots) for your new spells.

What do you think? It's not uncommon for a class to have some ability that can be used one to three times between long rests, which is in line with each spell level. Most classes just don't get so many such feature (fighter gets Second Wind, Action Surge, and Indomitable, with perhaps one or two more from the subclass), and can only use them in one way. Currently, the rules seem to consider getting access to a new level of spells to be equivalent to a class feature (hence the empty levels), but is each individual spell closer in power to a class feature? Somewhere in between?

Kinda depends on the spell. And the Class Feature.

Many spells are indeed rather like entirely new class features. And while many 'use the same resources' that's not really true of all of them. For example, Contingency doesn't use a spell slot from today, it uses one from earlier in the week, which isn't really the same thing. And Simulacrum basically converts gold into action economy and rest resources. And rituals obviously don't cost slots. And things like Goodberry and Animate Dead are optimally used by 'hedging' leftover slots at the end of an adventuring (or better yet, downtime) day, gaining the benefit tomorrow. Some spells are just plain permanent or "until dispelled." Stuff like that.

Wizards are particularly notable in this regard; a lot of the things they get that Sorcerers don't actually improves their resources, action economy, spell manipulation, etc. They've got over 300 spells on their list and a lot of them are adding something much more meaningful than "you get an alternate attack action, with another element."

[MrStabby]

Well class abilities range fom the very specific - like thieves cant, to the more major like wildshape. Likewise spells range from witchbolt to wish. Sure there are some spells that have a similar level of impact to class abilities.

I think you are right though - each spell level lets a caster do something new. More/higher level spells are not like additional uses/damage from rage for a barbarian; they usually let you do something qualitatively different like a big class feature.

[Makorel]

Horizon Walker's whole 7th level ability is being able to cast Etherealness, a 7th level spell, once per long rest. Honestly I really like the idea of non-fullcasters getting access to late spells early that would otherwise be too advanced for them to promote the concept of a sub-class. The class gets a new tool it can us and if the spell isn't a "must have" then it gets to see usage it might not otherwise. If you pick the right one or even two spells to bring forward and limit usage then I don't think it would be too unbalanced.

[Man_Over_Game]

You could probably figure this out by comparing the Arcane Archer's 2/Day shots to similar spells and the 2 expected spell slots for spells you'd gain around that level. Just make sure to deduct the Fighter's base damage from the compared spell's damage, as the Fighter gets to both attack and use the Arcane Shots, while the caster only gets to cast that spell that turn.

[MrStabby]

Horizon Walker's whole 7th level ability is being able to cast Etherealness, a 7th level spell, once per long rest. Honestly I really like the idea of non-fullcasters getting access to late spells early that would otherwise be too advanced for them to promote the concept of a sub-class. The class gets a new tool it can us and if the spell isn't a "must have" then it gets to see usage it might not otherwise. If you pick the right one or even two spells to bring forward and limit usage then I don't think it would be too unbalanced.

Yeah, I love that too. It is really thematically strong and builds a mechanical niche.

[Chronos]

"A class feature" isn't really the proper point of comparison, because class features vary wildly in their level of power and usefulness. I mean, heck, at one level, "Spellcasting" is a class feature. Obviously no single individual spell is going to compete with that.

[MoiMagnus]

"You have access to [insert good spell] which you can cast twice per long rest" would be an entire class feature by itself.

However, since spells consume the same resource as each others, they don't stack up as well as regular class features.
[That's similar to how if all your class features consume your bonus action to be used, the more you have of them the least you care about having new ones].

So yes, spells are entire class features, but spellcasters are the classes that benefit the least by being given access to new spells, as they already have plenty of other spells that compete for the same resource.

[Hytheter]

Some spells basically are hidden class features as it is. Warlocks are basically designed around Eldritch Blast even if you can viably build away from it. Spells like Find Familiar and Find Steed are effectively free for prepared casters.

[Yakk]

Yes; and some spells are really class features, like Find Greater Steed. Having that on your list gives you a pet; it is almost a subclass in a single spell (the Ranger BM subclass).

As the power of spells gets stronger at higher levels, this gets worse. And non-casters really don't get features that are that crazy in the back half (11-20).

The old canard; compare wish 1/day to any other non-casters level 17 ability.

[kazaryu]

Kinda depends on the spell. And the Class Feature.

Many spells are indeed rather like entirely new class features. And while many 'use the same resources' that's not really true of all of them. For example, Contingency doesn't use a spell slot from today, it uses one from earlier in the week, which isn't really the same thing. And Simulacrum basically converts gold into action economy and rest resources. And rituals obviously don't cost slots. And things like Goodberry and Animate Dead are optimally used by 'hedging' leftover slots at the end of an adventuring (or better yet, downtime) day, gaining the benefit tomorrow. Some spells are just plain permanent or "until dispelled." Stuff like that.

Wizards are particularly notable in this regard; a lot of the things they get that Sorcerers don't actually improves their resources, action economy, spell manipulation, etc. They've got over 300 spells on their list and a lot of them are adding something much more meaningful than "you get an alternate attack action, with another element."

basically this. although i'd also add that there are a few things that are 'spells' in this edition, that were once actually class features. the two big things that spring to mind are find familiar, and eldritch blast.

That being said, i don't think there's an inherent problem with granting martials 'spell-like abilities' (3.x term) as they level. Although i think i'd prefer to give them more utility abilities than combat. they're already pretty weighted toward combat. (except for rogues)