Seeing in the dark (clarification)

[carrdrivesyou]

I was curious if the devil's sight invocation bypassed the gloom stalker's umbral sight invisibility. By RAW, I would say that the invocation is different from standard darkvision.

[MaxWilson]

I was curious if the devil's sight invocation bypassed the gloom stalker's umbral sight invisibility. By RAW, I would say that the invocation is different from standard darkvision.

Agreed, Devil's Sight is not the same thing as Darkvision (e.g. in darkness, you don't take a penalty to Perception checks with Devil's Sight, but you do with Darkvision because everything is still lightly obscured to you). Umbral Sight as written should not be expected to conceal you from Devil's Sight, although check with your DM just in case they're doing things differently.

[Kyutaru]

I was curious if the devil's sight invocation bypassed the gloom stalker's umbral sight invisibility. By RAW, I would say that the invocation is different from standard darkvision.

Yeah, D&D doesn't only have darkvision and not darkvision. There's been infravision, ultravision, true-sight, different levels of awareness that don't all operate the same way. So concealment is done on a case by case basis and in this case I don't think the stalker can hide from it.

[Keravath]

Devils sight is not darkvision. Devils sight can see perfectly in complete darkness while darkvision sees in black and white and has disadvantage on perception checks relying on sight. In addition, the gloomstalker ability specifically states creatures that are using darkvision to see it. As a result, a character or creature with devils sight or truesight is unaffected by the Gloomstalker ability.

[Lunali]

Agreed, Devil's Sight is not the same thing as Darkvision (e.g. in darkness, you don't take a penalty to Perception checks with Devil's Sight, but you do with Darkvision because everything is still lightly obscured to you). Umbral Sight as written should not be expected to conceal you from Devil's Sight, although check with your DM just in case they're doing things differently.

To keep things interesting, if you have Devil's Sight and not Darkvision, you still get the perception penalty in dim light. Devil's Sight isn't so much the ability to see well in the dark as it is the ability to use darkness as illumination.

[MaxWilson]

To keep things interesting, if you have Devil's Sight and not Darkvision, you still get the perception penalty in dim light. Devil's Sight isn't so much the ability to see well in the dark as it is the ability to use darkness as illumination.

That depends of course on whether your DM interprets the "darkness" which Devil's Sight refers to as plain English "darkness" meaning insufficient light to one degree or another, or as the 5E-specific jargon "darkness" meaning a specific degree of English darkness somewhat darker than an "unusually-bright full moon".

Here's yet another case where 5E really needs to typographically distinguish its keywords (and provide page numbers to the definition on first reference). "Magical," "attack", "check", and "turn" could use a similar treatment.

As DM I judge that Devil's Sight works in all degrees of darkness. It's the sensible ruling in the face of ambiguity. (Yes, I'm aware of Twitter. No, I don't respect Twitter, nor does WotC any more.)

[Spiritchaser]

To keep things interesting, if you have Devil's Sight and not Darkvision, you still get the perception penalty in dim light. Devil's Sight isn't so much the ability to see well in the dark as it is the ability to use darkness as illumination.

I totally agree with this and rule as such. Thematic, mechanically interesting and even tactically exploitable, what’s not to like?

Of course, since many of the better warlock races have darkvision as well, this typically only comes up for variant human... but still.

[Keravath]

I totally agree with this and rule as such. Thematic, mechanically interesting and even tactically exploitable, what’s not to like?

Of course, since many of the better warlock races have darkvision as well, this typically only comes up for variant human... but still.

Agreed. A character with devils sight but not darkvision will still have disadvantage on perception checks in dim light. However, as far as the gloom stalker ability is concerned - that only functions in darkness and not dim light - so devils sight clearly prevents it from working against the character/creature with devils sight whether they have darkvision or not.

[Chronos]

To complicate matters even further, the version of Devil's Sight that actual, you know, devils have is darkvision, or rather, a modification of their darkvision: "Magical darkness does not impede the devil's darkvision".

[Demonslayer666]

Interesting, I would not rule that Dim Light interferes with Devil's Sight at all. Dim light = shadows, and that's darkness.

[Asmotherion]

The warlock invocation:

"You can see normally in darkness, both magical and nonmagical, to a distance of 120 feet."

Does not specify the spell "darkness" rather than generally refears to Darkness, nonmagical AND magical. Also is never stated as a form of Darkvision, just that it ignored darkness.

Gloom stalker's ability specifically trumps Darkvision =/= Warlock Invocation.

So by RAW it's the Warlock's Invocation that wins.

In RAI, the Warlock invocation trumps Magical Darkness (as in any darkness that has a magical nature, as opposed to "the spell Darkness", and the Gloom Stalker's ability is definitelly Magical, so no contradiction there.

[Spiritchaser]

Interesting, I would not rule that Dim Light interferes with Devil's Sight at all. Dim light = shadows, and that's darkness.

Sometimes a strict RAW reading interferes with fun or interesting mechanics. In this case it creates fun and interesting mecanics

In my opinion

And devils sight should definitely spot that gloomstalker

[Segev]

I actually like the ruling that devil’s sight doesn’t negate disadvantage in dim light; it makes having GM darkvision as well not entirely redundant.

On the other hand, I think the gloomstalker’s ability is more niche. While I agree that the RAW would have devil’s sight still see the ranger, I’m very tempted to house rule the other way.

[Kyutaru]

Interesting, I would not rule that Dim Light interferes with Devil's Sight at all. Dim light = shadows, and that's darkness.

I agree, the effect specifically say you see normally in darkness. If even magical pitch black can't impede my sight then I basically see everything. I imagine the hells must be pretty dark and devils need perfect vision in them. Basically this invocation makes it so you no longer require light to see.

[Joe the Rat]

Gloom stalker hiding in darkness is invisible if you need darkvision.
Devil's Sight Invocation is not Darkvision, and can see the Gloom Stalker
Devils have special Darkvision, but it is darkvision, so the Gloom Stalker is invisible.

One With the Shadows makes you invisible in darkness. You are still invisible to Devil's Sight, but they get to watch you disappear. Ditto Shadow Monk teleportation.