Monks and their own natural attack??

[animewatcha]

One thing I have always wondered. Through monk class feature legalese, unarmed strike can benefit from things that benefit natural weapons ( so long as the benefit is applicable ).

So one thing I have always wondered is...Can a monk use their own unarmed strike to strike as a secondary natural weapon?
No Flurry. No BAB extra attacks. No two-weapon fighting..

A level 1 monk being +0 for first attack due to bab of 0. Second attack being -5 for using a secondary natural weapon of Unarmed strike.

[tyckspoon]

No.

10char requirement

[Saintheart]

No.

For reasons best known to themselves, WOTC deems that a natural weapon is something like a claw or bite attack. Monks are given a specific exception to the rule that spells and effects applicable to natural weapons can also affect their unarmed attack, but that doesn't make an unarmed strike a natural weapon.

The only character option I'm aware of that really bridges this gap is the Skarn Monk ACF which allows them to use their arm spines as their monk unarmed strike. But the very fact they have this specific allowance seems rather to be a case of the exception proving the rule.

[animewatcha]

The only character option I'm aware of that really bridges this gap is the Skarn Monk ACF which allows them to use their arm spines as their monk unarmed strike. But the very fact they have this specific allowance seems rather to be a case of the exception proving the rule.

So skarn can do BAB spine, then double natural weapon spine?

[Saintheart]

So skarn can do BAB spine, then double natural weapon spine?

I'm AFB, but my vague recollection is that the answer is no. (Quick GITP search seems to say the same). It's just that the Skarn Monk's spine attack can be used as the monk unarmed strike. The damage (arguably you have to take all 3 racial substitution levels) progresses like a monk's unarmed attack, topping out at 1d10.

The main benefit I can see of this feature is that it allows you to qualify for PrCs that explicitly require a natural weapon (e.g. Thayan Gladiator) as a prerequisite. A monk's unarmed strike doesn't allow you to do that by RAW because whilst it counts as a natural weapon for the purposes of spells and effects that work on natural weapons, it is not in itself a natural weapon. Not to mention that as natural weapons go, the Skarn's spine attack has a decent damage dice: 1d6, when normally bites and claws and whatnot seem to default to d4 or d6s.

[Vaern]

A monk's unarmed strike can be enhanced as a natural weapon, but is not actually a natural weapon. A natural weapon is a part of a creature that is inherently weapon-like, of which a monk generally has none (as far as core races are concerned). A monk's unarmed strike is not a specific body part; they're merely trained to throw a punch or kick or, in one case involving a lich, teabag their opponents in such that they can deal damage more effectively than someone with an actual weapon.
If a monk does have a natural weapon it is his entire body, which he gets one attack with.

[RSGA]

Since I'm not away from my book, I can answer some stuff about the Skarn Monk levels. The good news is that you only need the first level substitution as far as spine damage goes. The feature you get there just flat out says that for all monk purposes your spines are an unarmed attack. So Skarn Monk 1 with the belt and feat to boost your unarmed damage has gotten most of the way to doing 1d10 and if you took all the good monk substitutions then you're close to doing 2d6 with each Spine strike that you can flurry and you have an arguably better AC bonus. It's probably not worth it to go all the way to Skarn Monk 10, as the Soulborn list isn't that great and getting an Arm bind isn't that big a deal outside of some build that must exist and I can't think of.

You'd be much better served by stopping at Monk 7 so you can have Concealment almost on demand for a Miss Chance defense, 1 guaranteed Essentia, and the ability to potentially have a +2 AC bonus that's flat out better than the Monk's because it doesn't go away unless you move Essentia, and crucially, +5 BAB. This lets you get three levels into Spinemeld Warrior which combined with Skarn Monk 1 and Skarn Monk 5 means that your spines are now counted as two light weapons, you get Two Weapon Fighting, they are still unarmed attacks for your Monk abilities, they can be +1 Weapons, you can shape a soulmeld, have at least 3 Essentia to power the stuff you have, and you're getting good BAB. If the GM is semi-merciful or at least not super-nitpicky, then the monk's flurry means that you can even trigger Spine Rend more easily once you get it.

[ayvango]

Monk could benefit from natural attack tremendously but not in the way you had pictured. Monk could attack using any part of hid body, including his legs. And flurry of kicks doesn't hinder his ability to strike natural attacks.

So you should obtain natural attacks to complement flurry of blows. Claws attack, bite and tail are quite common. If you have gathered all three you should take feat multiattack to reduce AB penalty. That would give you extra 4 attacks.

I'm just wondering if any exhaustive natural attack handbook exists. There are plenty ways of obtaining them: spells, grafts, racial traits, templates, racial feats.

[liquidformat]

Monk could benefit from natural attack tremendously but not in the way you had pictured. Monk could attack using any part of hid body, including his legs. And flurry of kicks doesn't hinder his ability to strike natural attacks.

So you should obtain natural attacks to complement flurry of blows. Claws attack, bite and tail are quite common. If you have gathered all three you should take feat multiattack to reduce AB penalty. That would give you extra 4 attacks.

I'm just wondering if any exhaustive natural attack handbook exists. There are plenty ways of obtaining them: spells, grafts, racial traits, templates, racial feats.

I often go with a Bear Totem City Brawler Barbarian 3/Predator Ranger 5/Fist of the Forest 2/Primeval 10 using dire puma form you end up with quite the attack combination once you add in unarmed strike to the mix. Even more comical is being a fleshraker for a crazy large group of attacks.

[ayvango]

I often go with a Bear Totem City Brawler Barbarian 3/Predator Ranger 5/Fist of the Forest 2/Primeval 10 using dire puma form
Had you considered reallocating pair of class levels to warshaper?

[liquidformat]

Had you considered reallocating pair of class levels to warshaper?

I am always on the fence with taking warshaper and whether it is worth it.

[Gruftzwerg]

I am always on the fence with taking warshaper and whether it is worth it.

I am working on an anime adaptation for showchase purposes, which will rely for some of the needed abilities on warshaper, for the past weeks...
And let me tell you that I always had the same feelings towards the warshaper and thought it would only be medicore at best.

But upon some info digging for the build I realized , oh boy... this is TOTALLY BROKEN and CRAZY AS HELL!

It all comes down to the Morphic Weapon ability which you can get even with only a single lvl dip.

Have a look at this nice old natural weapon thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?286497-101-Natural-Weapons).

Wanna have a lil taste? Look up "Disintegrating Touch" from an Umbral Blot (Blackball) (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm).

The ability is written so poorly that it just begs for abuse:

1. no limit to the amount of Natural Attacks that you might want to grow by RAW. sure any DM will houserule a sane limit to it, but that will be a houserule and not RAW. (Don't forget to get Mutiattack if you want to abuse the stacking^^)

2. It doesn't deny specific natural weapons of specific creatures. Why not grow Hydra's Bite attacks, which will give you X Hydra Heads.

3. Any special attack/quality/effect that is part of that natural attack is also emulated. Well, you know Hydra's Bite (Heads) work? All attack at full bonus (like Claws), can be sundered and the "body" only losses half the hp (iirc).

These are just the simplest options I'm mentioning here. Have a look at the list and realize that Warshaper is a totally broken PRC.