Can Polymorph any Object make Magic Items?

[Gruftzwerg]

A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic items aren’t affected by this spell.

I stumbled yesterday over this while working on another 3.5 topic. And I'm asking myself, can one make "magic items" with this spell?

The first sentence only restricts you from turning "nonmagical objects" into a magic item. The second sentence only restricts you from targeting magic items with the spell.

So, what if I used it on a spellcasting (N)PC?
Or on a Simulacrum of an spellcaster?
And does it needs to be a magical non-object or is just being a non-object enough?

Would this make the end product an magic item per the rules?
If it should work, would/could the end product be an intelligent magic item?

I'm not implying to "add" any fancy magic item abilities here. You are not turning your target into a "Invisibility Ring", just a "magical ring" (maybe intelligent).
If the (targeted) spellcaster has any abilities that he could give in his form as an magic item (via buff spells/abilities), that would be acceptable I guess.



What do you think about this? Or have you any FAQ/errata related to this? Any thoughts are welcome =)


edit: Bonus Question
Do I need any crafting professions to be able to turn something into a (masterwork?) weapon? I assume not, since it is not mentioned and you don't need the wisdom to create creatures to turn into one. Being "familiar" with it seems to be enough knowledge for a legal target.

edit2: form and typos corrected.

[el minster]

So am I getting this stright? you're turning people into objects

[Gruftzwerg]

So am I getting this strigh? you're turning people into objects

yeah, why not?


This spell functions like polymorph, except that it changes one object or creature into another.
It doesn't say another of its kind, so interchanges should be legal. And it even has rules for the opposite "giving objects Int Wis and Cha when they turn into creatures"

Unlike polymorph, polymorph any object does grant the creature the Intelligence score of its new form. If the original form didn’t have a Wisdom or Charisma score, it gains those scores as appropriate for the new form.

Or are you referring to it as an evil act?^^

edit: I mean just look at the duration table:

Human to marionette
I would say it turns people into objects.

[el minster]

well generally it wouldn't be so nice but combined with double polymorph any object it's pretty much murder

[Gruftzwerg]

well generally it wouldn't be so nice but combined with double polymorph any object it's pretty much murder

That's why I added the Simulacrum option to it. ^^

[MaxiDuRaritry]

PAO grants the Int score of the resulting object, meaning it should have an Int score of --, since the resulting object is nonmagical, rather than an intelligent magic item.

Create Device (from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood) allows for Dr. Frankenstein-esque nonmagical "magic" items, so you could use PAO to create one of those, which could very well be intelligent. Consider the resulting personality to be the programming for the not-so-AI.

[Gruftzwerg]

PAO grants the Int score of the resulting object, meaning it should have an Int score of --, since the resulting object is nonmagical, rather than an intelligent magic item.

what stops me from designating the altered form of PAO as intelligent magic item? Intelligent Magic Items do have Int scores and PAO would change it accordingly.



Create Device (from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood) allows for Dr. Frankenstein-esque nonmagical "magic" items, so you could use PAO to create one of those, which could very well be intelligent. Consider the resulting personality to be the programming for the not-so-AI.

I'll have a look as soon I have a bit more time. Maybe later this day. Thx

[MaxiDuRaritry]

what stops me from designating the altered form of PAO as intelligent magic item? Intelligent Magic Items do have Int scores and PAO would change it accordingly.The part you quoted in the first post just might have something to do with that?

[Psyren]

This is contingent on whether you believe you can get from organism to magic item with no intervening object step. Even if that's somehow possible (I personally don't believe it is), you'd almost certainly have the shortest duration factor for such a drastic shift. And if you're trying to do any variation of this that involves intervening steps or subsequent casting, you'll run into the clause quoted in the OP that prohibits it entirely.

[Gruftzwerg]

The part you quoted in the first post just might have something to do with that?

I already explained in post #3 why that quote (in post #1) doesn't stop me from turning creatures into magic items. if you still feel that there are things to debate, pls point em out.


This is contingent on whether you believe you can get from organism to magic item with no intervening object step. Even if that's somehow possible (I personally don't believe it is), you'd almost certainly have the shortest duration factor for such a drastic shift. And if you're trying to do any variation of this that involves intervening steps or subsequent casting, you'll run into the clause quoted in the OP that prohibits it entirely.

a) start with a Warforged
or
b) use other means (e.g. Shapechange) to turn into a warforged (or other construct).

If we now turn the warforged into a(n intelligent) magic item the duration for the PAO cast is:
+5 Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral)
+2 Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.)
+2 Same or lower Intelligence

= +9 Permanent Duration

[Psyren]

a) start with a Warforged
or
b) use other means (e.g. Shapechange) to turn into a warforged (or other construct).

You're assuming here that a Warforged is somehow "closer" to a magic item than any other creature. Given that magic items can be made out of bone, teeth, hair and other things, I'm not sure what this is based on.

The creature to object examples we have on the table (Human to pebble and human to marionette) suggest that, at best, you can turn a human-shaped creature into a human-shaped object for an hour. And even then, none of the examples cover jumping straight to a magic item without passing through "item" and triggering the prohibitive clause.

[el minster]

This is contingent on whether you believe you can get from organism to magic item with no intervening object step. Even if that's somehow possible (I personally don't believe it is), you'd almost certainly have the shortest duration factor for such a drastic shift. And if you're trying to do any variation of this that involves intervening steps or subsequent casting, you'll run into the clause quoted in the OP that prohibits it entirely.

It wouldn't be shortest duration because people are smarter than objects

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It wouldn't be shortest duration because people are smarter than objectsAre politicians not "people," then?

[Duke of Urrel]

This spell [Polymorph Any Object] cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine.


This sentence, right there in the spell's description (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm), is the biggest stumbling block that a dungeon master can place in your way if you want to change anything into a magic item using the Polymorph Any Object spell.

A magic scroll scribed with a zero-level spell costs 6.25 gp to create. The only cheaper magic item that I can find is the Blessed Bandage, which costs 5 gp. to create. Do even these simplest of all magic items contain no "material of great intrinsic value"? Why, then, do their raw materials cost so much?

Most of the material that makes up a magic scroll is parchment, which costs two silver pieces per sheet. We can argue over whether parchment is "material of great intrinsic value." But subtract two silver pieces from 6.25 gp, and you still have 6.05 gp worth of raw material that you must provide in order to scribe a zero-level spell upon a magic scroll. Presumably this raw material is ink. What kind of ink costs 6.05 gp per page? Probably ink that contains some "material of great intrinsic value."

And this is the ground level of the grand hotel of magic items. The argument that you can create a magic item without using any material of great intrinsic value gets weaker and weaker as the raw materials cost of creating a magic item gets higher and higher.

[el minster]

Are politicians not "people," then?

Can you explain this, I don't understand

[Buufreak]

He's comparing politicians to objects, ie saying they are less intelligent than your average human.

[Gruftzwerg]

You're assuming here that a Warforged is somehow "closer" to a magic item than any other creature. Given that magic items can be made out of bone, teeth, hair and other things, I'm not sure what this is based on.

The creature to object examples we have on the table (Human to pebble and human to marionette) suggest that, at best, you can turn a human-shaped creature into a human-shaped object for an hour. And even then, none of the examples cover jumping straight to a magic item without passing through "item" and triggering the prohibitive clause.
I used the warforged with the example of turning it into a magic weapon in my head, sry forgot to point it out.
Iron/Steel is imho not a material of great intrinsic value (compared to the other metals mentioned).
This should results in a permanent +9 duration for PAO.




This sentence, right there in the spell's description (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm), is the biggest stumbling block that a dungeon master can place in your way if you want to change anything into a magic item using the Polymorph Any Object spell.


Easy to bypass imho. First there are enough materials that are not "material of great intrinsic value" that are still used for magic weapons. In this chases their masterwork status has more to do with fancy processing for e.g. some artwork on it. E.g. a monk's belt is "a simple rope belt". Most weapons are made of steel, sometimes even masterwork weapons rely on plain steel if they are intend to be used in real combat not for showchasing. Again, it's artwork and special processing what makes such a weapon a masterwork weapon. (you can look up "Ulfberht Viking Sword" for an good example of this from history)
Further we have rules to put magic effect onto other items as that mentioned in their desciption. With this we could alter what kind of masterwork item it is (expensive materials or expensive processing/artwork).


______________________

As said,my intention is not to polymorph into a "specific magic item" to obtain any power of "that specific item".

The intention is to change a spellcasting (or with special buffing abilities) creature, preferable a simulacrum, into an object that counts as (maybe intelligent ?) magic item. The question if the transformed creature is capable of doing any enhancing magic on a possible wearer is on another page (but still interesting).

edit: Imho it sounds like a good way to create intelligent magic items^^

edit 2: You can either call it bad editing or intention.. but for some reason they went with
"A nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell" instead of just saying "you can't create magic items with this spell". Why didn't they go with a strict denial if they really wanted to deny it?

[RSGA]

The wording is either an artifact of editing that nobody caught and thus there is no longer anyone to catch it given that this is over 20 years into the past, or it's to cover the edge cases that would come up if you started to think about how the many, many D&D settings have such things as technically non-magical, non-person robots, not-necessarily magical clockwork automata, and all kinds of other edge cases.

Like how if you have an enemy that likes to open with Disintegrate your best option is to find some really short duration or (D) transformation into a normal tree, not an animated tree, tree friend, tree fiend, or anything like that, just a tree. And then fail your Fort save willingly. Because a tree isn't a creature, failing the fort save means that you won't take the 2d6 per level damage, you'll instead lose a 10 foot cube of non-living matter. Which a tree, notably, isn't made of. So making the save would have been worse because then you would get hit for 5d6 damage, which is more than the 0 this defense gives you.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not just do the methods talked about here?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14zilT4WGOyHM0AfpG4-GmD2FkgDg1HZ9HC1cTleQHds/edit

[Gruftzwerg]

The wording is either an artifact of editing that nobody caught and thus there is no longer anyone to catch it given that this is over 20 years into the past, or it's to cover the edge cases that would come up if you started to think about how the many, many D&D settings have such things as technically non-magical, non-person robots, not-necessarily magical clockwork automata, and all kinds of other edge cases.

Like how if you have an enemy that likes to open with Disintegrate your best option is to find some really short duration or (D) transformation into a normal tree, not an animated tree, tree friend, tree fiend, or anything like that, just a tree. And then fail your Fort save willingly. Because a tree isn't a creature, failing the fort save means that you won't take the 2d6 per level damage, you'll instead lose a 10 foot cube of non-living matter. Which a tree, notably, isn't made of. So making the save would have been worse because then you would get hit for 5d6 damage, which is more than the 0 this defense gives you.
Imho it seems to be the latter. To cover those edge chases. It seems to me like a stylish way to produce intelligent magic items. I mean, it nothing new. Stories about items/weapon who are possessed by magical beings exist.
And I like the idea to curse people into intelligent magic items. You could do it as an evil act, or as hero to capture the baddy after the fight and force him into a therapy with you as long as he remains evil.

_______________________________________


Why not just do the methods talked about here?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14zilT4WGOyHM0AfpG4-GmD2FkgDg1HZ9HC1cTleQHds/edit

thx always nice to have some odd infos.

but here I would like to see the extend of PAO^^