Modifying Point Buy, does this work?

[Scubasteve0209]

THE ISSUE
A while back my new gaming group were having a zero session, building characters & whatnot, and we were trying to decide whether characters should roll their abilities, or use point-buy.

BREAKDOWN
* Half the group preferred the roll 4, keep three system. They liked the randomness, and the potential for both high, & low stats.

* The other half (myself included) preferred the point-buy system, with the promise characters who are more on par with one another, and less chance of some characters outstripping the others with superior dice (I also had a suspicion at least one of the players was a bit of a power gamer who "just so happened" to roll three 17's on a previous character)

IDEA
My compromise was this: We use the point-buy system, using 24 points instead of 27, and roll a 1d4. You can add the result of the 1d4 to your ability scores (no more than 2 in any one stat). That way stats stay relatively close to one another, and players still get an aspect of randomness to their stats.

I felt like it worked, but I'm not sure the math holds water in its intention of keeping characters from being underpowered, or overpowered. What do you think?

[pantastic]

I personally prefer everybody starting with the same stat options ... really sucks to have a brand new PC with +7 in randomly rolled stat bonuses, ESPECIALLY when the player next to you got +12 in randomly rolled stat bonuses.

A different possible compromise: let the group roll for stats, but do it in such a way that every player ends up with the same stat pool. Everybody gets random stats, but everybody gets the same options, power-wise.

For example: you have 6 players? Each player rolls one stat and contributes it to the pool. Voila - 6 randomly rolled stats, and all PCs have same stat options to start with.

Have 5 players? They each roll a stat, and the GM rolls a stat. Voila - 6 randomly rolled stats, and all PCs have same stat options.

Have 7 players? They each roll, and the lowest stat gets dropped (or maybe the middle stat? I would look at results on anydice before deciding)

You get the idea. Have fun with it, make it a team event, players will dig it.

[micahaphone]

Eh it's okay - like many a compromise, I think neither side will be 100% happy with it. Power gamers in your group might just prefer a point buy with a higher budget

Personally, I agree with you that I don't like having a party where someone rolled (or "rolled at home" :smallannoyed:) great stats, and someone else rolled ****ty. Balance/power levels only matter between party members - if you're all OP, or all crappy stats, then it's okay.

I've seen a few different systems were people roll for stats (all together and at the same time, watching each other) and you communally create one array of numbers that everyone uses,
or anyone can use any array that anyone rolled (if someone gets an 18 and you're very SAD, maybe you'll go for that, but a different array of many more middling scores might fit a build you're thinking of),
or all the stats get tossed into a communal grid and everyone takes a row or column, or something more complicated like that.

Basically, you keep the fun (and most likely higher stats) of rolling, and you maintain inter-party stat balance.


Edit: I got ninja'd! Nice draw speed, pantastic.

[pantastic]

(or "rolled at home" :smallannoyed:) great stats

This should not be an option, ever, in my opinion.

As for the rest, you're right: no solution will please 100%.

Again: me personally, I hate to see a PC hampered for life because of 2 bad rolls when making a character... especially if the player seated to the right rolled nothing less than 11.

(true story: I made a character on Roll20 last week, we rolled in the chat for all to see and I got 16, 16, 14, 14, 13, 11. Sucks for the guy who rolled a 7 and a 9)

Whatever you choose, I hope all are satisfied (even if not thrilled), and the game is a fantastic one!

[DeTess]

I personally prefer everybody starting with the same stat options ... really sucks to have a brand new PC with +7 in randomly rolled stat bonuses, ESPECIALLY when the player next to you got +12 in randomly rolled stat bonuses.

A different possible compromise: let the group roll for stats, but do it in such a way that every player ends up with the same stat pool. Everybody gets random stats, but everybody gets the same options, power-wise.

For example: you have 6 players? Each player rolls one stat and contributes it to the pool. Voila - 6 randomly rolled stats, and all PCs have same stat options to start with.

Have 5 players? They each roll a stat, and the GM rolls a stat. Voila - 6 randomly rolled stats, and all PCs have same stat options.

Have 7 players? They each roll, and the lowest stat gets dropped (or maybe the middle stat? I would look at results on anydice before deciding)

You get the idea. Have fun with it, make it a team event, players will dig it.

A variation on this that I still want to try out is that every player rolls a full set of 6 stats and the GM fills it out if necessary so that you get 6 full arrays. Stack these together into a 6x6 matrix and then any player can pick a row, column or diagonal for their stats(free to arrange, though with that many options going 'in order' might be interesting as well). That way you keep some variation between players and campaigns while still having an even playing field stats-wise.

[Zhorn]

(or "rolled at home" :smallannoyed:)
"If a roll is not witnessed by the DM, the roll never happened."

[CTurbo]

I really don't care, as player or DM, what method is used for generating stats as long as everybody is relatively equal.

That being said, if forced to choose, I do prefer all players roll stats and everybody gets choose anybody's rolls. This is the method I typically choose when I DM.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

"If a roll is not witnessed by the DM, the roll never happened."

To tell the truth I trust my players to roll at home and give me the results. Even new players that join.


But most of my games are pointbuy or an array.

[Demonslayer666]

Why not do both and balance it out afterwards with starting bonuses? Make everyone happy. Just give a little boost to those that rolled lower, or if the rollers left behind the point buyers.

We have done all three methods for quite some time now, and people that point buy or take the standard array are happy. No one that rolls has gotten mega stats that makes them way better than someone else.

I upped both the point buy and standard array so that a starting 18 is possible with racial bonuses, to make them on par with rolling. I also allow a reroll if you rolled low for most of your stats.

I've never seen stats make that big of a difference. High stats can make a memorably good class, but that's about it.

[DevilMcam]

I've seen a game where our barbarian rolled an 18 and some other good stats (as well as a couple terrible stats).
He started with 20 STR , took gwm at 4 and steamrolled every encounters up to lvl 6.

It's kinda hard to shine next to that when you are a 14 str paladin (had great cha, but it didn't matter that much for t1) or a combat focused warlock with only 16 cha

[Falconcry]

My own game uses alot of feats. V-Human is banned but every race chooses a half-feat at level one. Only feats that give a point to ability scores are allowed at first level. We use an altered standard array 15,14,13,12,10, but change the 8 to an 18. This with racials and half-feat mean you will likely start with a 20 in your prime stat. This also means the players are on a even playing field and you don’t get GWM/PAM/Sharpshooter issues until tier one is almost over. Feats are more fun then another 2 points to your stats.

[Sorinth]

If point buy is really just to ensure PC-PC balance the easiest is to have everyone rolls a stat block, but you can choose to use anyones stat block to use. It sucks a bit if there's one super stat block that everyone "has" to pick but otherwise works pretty well.

Another option is to go with rolled stats but set a min/max total ability modifier. Outside that range and roll again.

[CornfedCommando]

We recently went with a Pillars of Eternity point buy. All stats begin at 10 and you have 15 points to spend among them, on a one for one basis, up to a max of 18. You can subtract points from any stat to add to another. Once your stats are set, add your race’s ability score modifiers.

[w15p]

I've seen a few different systems were people roll for stats (all together and at the same time, watching each other) and you communally create one array of numbers that everyone uses,
or anyone can use any array that anyone rolled (if someone gets an 18 and you're very SAD, maybe you'll go for that, but a different array of many more middling scores might fit a build you're thinking of),
or all the stats get tossed into a communal grid and everyone takes a row or column, or something more complicated like that.

Basically, you keep the fun (and most likely higher stats) of rolling, and you maintain inter-party stat balance.


I've used this method and like it. You get randomness (though skewed to high rolls) but nobody is outclassed.

[Demonslayer666]

I've seen a game where our barbarian rolled an 18 and some other good stats (as well as a couple terrible stats).
He started with 20 STR , took gwm at 4 and steamrolled every encounters up to lvl 6.

It's kinda hard to shine next to that when you are a 14 str paladin (had great cha, but it didn't matter that much for t1) or a combat focused warlock with only 16 cha


Of course a charisma focused paladin can't compete damage-wise to a strength focused barbarian. They aren't supposed to, only a strength focused paladin should expect to.

Admittedly, I don't know the whole situation, but only looking at damage output is the problem here. You need to look at the big picture. Characters with high charisma fair better in noncombat situations.

[kaervaak]

I really like https://rollout.dwgill.com/ for stat rolling. You can make very nice rules to make it so there's a reasonable amount of randomness but everyone ends up on similar footing.
My favorite rules are:

at least 1 stat 15 or higher
Sum of all stats at least 74 (2 higher than standard array)
Sum of all stats less than 80 (no super high rolls)

You can tweak as you see fit

[jmartkdr]

Of course a charisma focused paladin can't compete damage-wise to a strength focused barbarian. They aren't supposed to, only a strength focused paladin should expect to.

Admittedly, I don't know the whole situation, but only looking at damage output is the problem here. You need to look at the big picture. Characters with high charisma fair better in noncombat situations.

What if the barbarian had higher charisma?

(That's where rolling creates the biggest issues).

Your solution also assumes that there are as many important roleplaying encounters as combats, and that everyone gets an equal chance to participate in those.

[Greywander]

You could do something like a half-and-half compromise. Roll three stats, other stats start at 8, then use point buy to finish off (say, with 14 points to spend). Since standard point buy is 27 points, it actually works better to split it into thirds. Roll two stats, and use 18 point buy, or roll four stats and use 9 point buy.

As for other alternative methods, one you might like is the array grid. Roll six stat arrays and place them on a 6x6 grid. Any player can choose any array on the grid going forward, backward, up, down, or diagonal.

One method that I like to use is called the "organic method". Roll 4d6 and drop the lowest, but it's in order (i.e. first roll is your STR, second is DEX, etc.). Then, reroll one score. Finally, you can switch two of your scores if you want to. This gives you fairly randomized stats, but between the reroll and the switching, you can still mostly guaranty having at least one good stat for your build (e.g. you can usually end up with good INT on a wizard, or STR on a barbarian).

[da newt]

Seems like a non-issue to me. Let the players choose to use point buy or roll 4d6d1 for their PC. Done.

Where is the problem that needs a solution?

[Democratus]

If the players at the table were happy, then it was the right move.

As a concern for the DM, math is a distant second to fun. :smallsmile:

[Demonslayer666]

What if the barbarian had higher charisma?

(That's where rolling creates the biggest issues).

Your solution also assumes that there are as many important roleplaying encounters as combats, and that everyone gets an equal chance to participate in those.

Like I said, I don't know the whole situation, there are other factors.

That's better than assuming there are none. /shrug

Each player should get the spotlight, not just the one that does the most damage in combat.