What Is A Gunslinger?

[Primal Fury]

I'd like to follow JNAProductions lead on grabbing some inspiration from the community; I'm working on a little (read: unnecessarily complicated) reboot for the gunslinger, but I'm realizing there might be a bit more work that needs to be done. So I ask you: Just what the heck IS a gunslinger?

What should the Gunslinger be able to do, and do well?
What should they be able to do okay?
What should they be bad at?
What should they not be able to do at all?

I've got a whole bunch of ideas for different ways that a gunslinger might deal damage, up to and including playing like John Wick, Hawkeye, and Bayonetta all rolled into one, but that doesn't really solve one of the core problems with gunslingers: Just what do they do besides fight? Sure they can deal damage, but what are some other ways they interact with the world? Could you play a sharp-tongued liar, or are they best at brow-beating their foes into submission? I'm not saying they need to mind-control their foes, but what could they do in a social situation besides twiddling their thumbs? Speaking of mind control, if they're meant to have so much mental fortitude, then why do they have low will saves?

And IF gunslingers are changed, do their guns need to be changed along with them, since the very existence of guns is basically a class feature for them?

[theVoidWatches]

A miserable pile of bullets!

Now that that's over with...

Gunslingers obviously need to excel at gun combat, but I don't think they need to be limited to ranged combat exclusively. Someone who slams people with their guns and shoots at point blank range feels just as valid a gunman as a sniper.
I think they should be able to do most dexterity stuff okay, and also charisma stuff feels right. Intimidation in particular feels appropriate.
They shouldn't have magic, unless their guns are magical. Maybe magic tricks that are directly related to guns, maybe, but even that should be optional - maybe a prestige class for stuff like that.

Outside of combat, I think that gunslingers occupy a similar niche to rogues and bards. They tend to be skillful and often charismatic, whether that comes as cheerful and snarky or dour and intimidating. They should also be able to do trick shots, things that require ridiculous levels of precision, like shooting through a rope or triggering buttons from far away.

[Morphic tide]

In many regards, they face the Fighter problem, where the actual class identity is solely a combat function, and therefor it's a considerable issue to pin down anything outside of combat. Consequently, the class needs honed on something more than "shoot gun", partly so that characters of other classes can "shoot gun" competently without entirely gutting the Gunslinger's comparative advantage, but mainly so the class has a direction for non-combat capabilities.

With Pazio's implementation, the two directions to expand into would be a gunsmith or an "outlaw", with both carrying a lot of self-sufficiency effects, but the latter would be more "party face" while the former takes on a "WBLmancy" setup from the deepened crafting. Adjusting the Grit/Luck/Panache system into something more suitable to hold non-combat resolutions is also needed if they're going to get out of t4, even if it's primarily in the form of Intimidate and breaking things.

[D&D_Fan]

what about a piercing shot ability that can ignore some armor, when you do a gun attack, and will get progressively better.

[Unavenger]

A miserable pile of bullets!

Dammit, you stole my line!

[Anonymouswizard]

In many regards, they face the Fighter problem, where the actual class identity is solely a combat function, and therefor it's a considerable issue to pin down anything outside of combat. Consequently, the class needs honed on something more than "shoot gun", partly so that characters of other classes can "shoot gun" competently without entirely gutting the Gunslinger's comparative advantage, but mainly so the class has a direction for non-combat capabilities.

This, gunslinging is a combat style (and to me one that revolves around the Western and it's Drifters), so you essentially end up with the Fighter, but with more focused abilities.

Now the drifting Western hero is a fine archetype to base a class around, some basic Face or sleight of hand abilities, some mounted combat powers, a focus on making attacks before your opponent's realised they've drawn, in some ways they're as much a Rogue as a Fighter. Give them something along the lines of Sudden Strike, an initiative boost on the first round of combat, and some pure Grit to keep going when all else fails.


Now, the over the top stylish 'hundreds of pistol shots a minute' style of gun combat as in Bayonetta is also worthy of inclusion in a game, but to me that's more a gun focused Monk or Paladin type of character.

[sandmote]

In many regards, they face the Fighter problem, where the actual class identity is solely a combat function, and therefor it's a considerable issue to pin down anything outside of combat. Consequently, the class needs honed on something more than "shoot gun", partly so that characters of other classes can "shoot gun" competently without entirely gutting the Gunslinger's comparative advantage, but mainly so the class has a direction for non-combat capabilities. I'd like to third this notion.


Now the drifting Western hero is a fine archetype to base a class around, some basic Face or sleight of hand abilities, some mounted combat powers, a focus on making attacks before your opponent's realised they've drawn, in some ways they're as much a Rogue as a Fighter. Give them something along the lines of Sudden Strike, an initiative boost on the first round of combat, and some pure Grit to keep going when all else fails. I'd also add some ability to act while (mechanically) surprised and/or a bonus against being surprised in the first place.

Gunsmith as a concept I think is less flavorful and less versatile, but having a gunslinger's firearm double as a melee weapon would probably work well. This could be a feature that allows other classes to be useful with a gun but unable to wholly replace the class.

[Edea]

Probably a Ranger that swapped bows with guns; maybe an arcane spell list instead of a divine one.

[Primal Fury]

Now, the over the top stylish 'hundreds of pistol shots a minute' style of gun combat as in Bayonetta is also worthy of inclusion in a game, but to me that's more a gun focused Monk or Paladin type of character.
What makes you say this? I guess I understand the Monk, but why Paladin?

To expand on this thought a bit, is there a place in the gunslinger's repertoire for that Bayonetta/Dante combat style at the highest level? As fun as high-flying bullet hell would be, does it belong here? I would very much like if it did, but if not, then... I'll probably still try anyway, but would at least make efforts to tone it down.


Adjusting the Grit/Luck/Panache system into something more suitable to hold non-combat resolutions is also needed if they're going to get out of t4, even if it's primarily in the form of Intimidate and breaking things.
This is another thing I want to go for, but I'm not sure how to address it. As it stands now, the Grit system is all about pulling off risky things with a low chance of success. Does this ONLY apply to life-threatening physical actions or can it be applied elsewhere as well through a creative reading of the rules?

[Anonymouswizard]

What makes you say this? I guess I understand the Monk, but why Paladin?

To expand on this thought a bit, is there a place in the gunslinger's repertoire for that Bayonetta/Dante combat style at the highest level? As fun as high-flying bullet hell would be, does it belong here? I would very much like if it did, but if not, then... I'll probably still try anyway, but would at least make efforts to tone it down.

Basically? Only corebook class that really goes into the 'mystical warrior' angle, I should have gone for Magus but I tend not to play Pathfinder.

And in my view? No, because gunslinger isn't a class. You want a class focused on Dante/Bayonetta style stylish combat? Cool, we should have a class for that, but we shouldn't tie it to any particular weapon type (I have issues with Paladins tending to get a hyper melee focus as well).

Also, I think D&D needs to get rid of 'the generic guy class' and 'skillset' classes. Classes should be archetypes, and should give characters personality all on their own, you're not a Fighter, but a noble Knight or a tricky Drifter or a unstoppable Barbarian. The same for magical classes, you shouldn't be a 'Wizard', but a Necromancer or a Summoner or an Enchanter. Unless you're going the other way and only doing skillset classes (like the classic Cleric/Fighter/Magic-User/Thief combo), but at that point 'gunslinger' is too narrow a concept compared to the other classes.

[Dienekes]

Personally, when I think gunslinger I think a combat focused character that should be able to focus as a quick-shot pistoleer, a sniper, or heavy-shot blunderbuss/shotgunner. Their weapon tricks catering toward getting the feel of someone who can do just about everything in their weapon style of choice.

Outside of combat they should have abilities based around being an old west-style outlaw, a gunsmith, a military-style professional, or a frontiersman, maybe pirate.

There’s a part of me that thinks this would work best if you steal the pattern of leveling from the 5e Warlock. Where you start out with your subclass that would determine the style of gunslinger you want: outlaw, gunsmith, etc. which focuses on giving a lot of flavorful abilities to get the feel right. Then maybe a level or two later you pick your gun style specialization: sniper, shotgun, pistols. Which would effect the type of cool gunslinging tricks you can use.

[Sinner's Garden]

The Gunslinger is the guy who strolls up to town, puts some pressure down, quick draws on a scoundrel, and walks into the sunset.

First, he needs some kind of travel ability. Not huge mobility bonuses, but the capacity to move from destination to destination. Tracking and survival skills. Proficiency with plants and animals. Very much like a ranger does, honestly.

Second, he's very good at establishing his presence. He's not always the smoothest of talkers (although he can be, particularly if he's of a villainous bent), but he is one scary son of a gun and damn hard to put out of mind. He's pretty good with his hands, too. Maybe he's not a master mason or blacksmith, but very astute. Counts out cards to catch you cheating, out-cheats you to level the playing field, wins because he's just that lucky (good), and then disarms and disables you when you try and hold him up for beating you. That sort of classic scenario largely involves certain kinds of skill checks, which emphasis on perception, and hints at the good fortune inherit in the character.

He's also insanely talented with his gun, of course. Can shoot the gun out of your hand, bounce bullets off the walls, you name it. If you can imagine someone doing it with a gun, he's better. Probably can toss a knife across the room and pin a fly by its wings.

After clearing up trouble and saving a damsel with luck, pluck, and grit, he'll ride off into the sunset until he's needed again. That suggests to me some kind of ability to evade detection and keep ahead of pursuit, to pair with his ability to track down what he's got to get done.

Of course, being in a high fantasy setting brings its own troubles. A gun just cannot keep up with epic heroes. No matter how hard you pull the trigger, the bullet will not shoot faster. It doesn't scale very well as a concept. There's a few ways to deal with it, but it's pretty hard to work around, and entirely reliant on a wizard helping you do your job. Setting that issue aside, though, I'm pretty sure I just described the ranger class. You could add some riffs on it, but if "not using magic" is core to your concept in a fantasy setting, you will be and should be left behind, so make sure to emphasize his inhuman talent.