PDA

View Full Version : Speculation Chainlocks, and the curious case of the celestial imp



Greywander
2020-07-16, 07:42 PM
The Find Familiar spell is one that is shrouded in mystery. Sure, most of the mechanical effects are explained fairly clearly, but the fluff behind those mechanics is almost entirely absent. We know what the spell does, but not why it works that way. As we'll see later on (particularly with chainlocks), this causes us some problems when something isn't explained and we need to figure it out for ourselves. One of the big unanswered questions is...

What even is a familiar?

Now, it should be noted that you can also make a contract with an existing creature to be your familiar. However, despite any similarities, this uses completely different mechanics from the Find Familiar spell, and it's pretty clear that the fluff is different, too. The familiar you gain from Find Familiar has little to do with the familiars that are the result of contracts with a preexisting creature.

Even without definite answers, we can still speculate what exactly a familiar is.

Familiars are an extension of the caster

Your familiar is you, or a part of you. It may even contain a piece of your soul, which safely returns to you when the familiar dies or is dismissed (though creatures capable to stealing souls, such as a demilich, might pose a special danger to you). While the familiar initially appears to be a distinct and separate creature, with its own thoughts, desires, and personality, it actually shares a subconscious with you. This can produce some curious behavior. For example, your familiar might act aggressively toward a person you subconsciously distrust, even if you're not consciously aware of your misgivings toward that person. Your familiar might also act on your subconscious desires with less inhibition than yourself. A stoic and aloof elf might have a familiar that is playful and gregarious, for example.

Under this theory of the familiar, the logical conclusion is coming to a place where you perfectly harmonize with your familiar. The two of you become one, having one mind and acting in concert. Perhaps one way this could manifest might be permanently sharing your senses with one another, while retaining awareness of your own senses.

Familiars are the caster's genius

A genius is a personal guardian spirit. Everyone has one, wizards have just found a way to give their genius a physical form. This ends up similar to the above, but with one difference in that the genius actually is a distinct and separate entity, capable of having its own thoughts, desires, and personality without sharing a subconscious with you. Or not. It kind of depends on what exactly a genius is. But that's a whole other discussion, so for now we'll assume that it is a distinct entity. Rather than being a splinter of yourself, it acts more like a trusty partner or best friend. It also handily explains why you can only have one at a time: each person only has one genius.

One of the interesting consequences of having a genius is that it can explain a number of other curious mechanics. Perhaps the reason why, say, Fire Bolt can't set fire to equipment that is worn or carried is because your genius protects the gear immediately on your person, but anything farther away is beyond its ability to protect. The genius could also explain hit points, where your genius struggles to protect you from fatal blows and HP is a measure of its power.

Find Familiar enslaves a weak spirit and gives it physical form

Find Familiar says that you "gain the services of a familiar", and that it is a "celestial, fey, or fiend". Nothing is open and shut here, but one way of interpreting this is that the spell finds a weak celestial, fey, or fiendish spirit and compels it into your service. Find Familiar is only a 1st level spell, so it can only enslave a particularly weak spirit, so fittingly the spirit can only take particularly weak forms.

This has some interesting implications. Perhaps your familiar retains their own personality and desires, but the spell compels it to obey you. A fiendish familiar, for example, might still desire to corrupt you and to perform evil acts, but its will is entirely suppressed by the spell. Would they remember you if you dismissed them, and they later returned in a stronger form? Summoning a fiendish familiar might grab a random lemure and cause it to take whatever beast form you've chosen. But that lemure might get promoted to a stronger type of devil later, and come back for revenge.

When a familiar dies, it might be well and truly dead, forever. Each time you cast the spell, it might summon a completely different spirit. Each new familiar has no memory of you or your party. Familiars aren't beloved pets you can keep calling back, they are mere tools, to be used and then thrown away and replaced.

The logical conclusion of this theory is, first, that Find Familiar isn't a very nice spell, and second, that the goal is to eventually enslave a stronger creature. This would be a great segue into talking about chainlocks if I didn't have one more theory to discuss first.

Find Familiar creates the spirit

In a way, this is kind of a mix of all of the above. It's not really part of you, but the spirit is something you create with the spell. It's not a guardian spirit, but the parameters of its creation make it a loyal ally. The spirit is kind of enslaved, but more like it was never created with free will in the first place. Honestly, this seems an unlikely theory, as the ability to create spirits seems like it would be a powerful effect. There'd also be no reason you couldn't create more than one at a time.

Regardless, the possibility remains that the spell does create the familiar from nothing, and for whatever reason can't create more than one at a time, and can't be repurposed as a general "Create New Life" spell. This is perhaps the most mysterious possibility, and would raise even more questions if this was the truth.

Now how about those chainlocks?

Voice of the Chainmaster gives some pretty straightforward mechanical upgrades over the standard Find Familiar rules. There's nothing really mysterious about that invocation. Just getting that out of the way first.

Where chainlocks get mysterious is with the new forms that they can give their familiars. For example, a common argument I see, and have made myself, is that the chainlock's imp isn't a real imp, but rather a familiar spirit taking the form of an imp. This is why it won't try to corrupt you or betray you. But under the Enslavement theory, it might just be an actual, real imp. Or... is it? There might just be a loophole in the mechanics that can prove the familiar is, in fact, not a real imp.

The curious case of the celestial imp (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u0wg3t6osM)

Going back to the Find Familiar spell, it summons a spirit that take the form of a beast, but is considered a celestial, fey, or fiend rather than a beast. That last part is important, because none of the chainlock familiars are beasts. Is the fact that the imp is a fiend considered part of its stat block that overrides whatever choice of spirit you made? If you summon a fey spirit, but have it take the form of an imp, does it become a fiend? Or, can you override the familiar's creature type with your choice of celestial, fey, or fiend? Can you summon a celestial imp?

But more interesting than the imp is perhaps the pseudodragon, because it is neither beast nor celestial nor fey nor fiend. If you summon a pseudodragon as a familiar, there are three possibilities for what happens to its creature type:

The pseudodragon is always a dragon. You can't change its creature type.
The pseudodragon is never a dragon. You must choose between celestial, fey, or fiend.
The pseudodragon is sometimes a dragon. You can keep its existing creature type or override it with celestial, fey, or fiend.

If we go by strict RAW, only a beast type can be replaced with celestial, fey, or fiend, so the first option is the "correct" one. But this might only be because the original spell can only create a beast familiar. Perhaps it was intended that chainlock familiars could also have their creature types replaced, and they just forgot to write it into the pact description. However one would have thought there'd be some errata, or at least a Sage Adv- Oh. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/10/01/for-the-celestial-warlock-pact-of-the-chain-what-is-an-alternative-familiar-you-would-suggest/) Well, according to Jeremy Crawford, you can have a celestial sprite or a celestial pseudodragon. For whatever his word is worth.

If we take Crawford at his word, then that means we can summon a celestial imp, and therefore it can't be a real imp, even if we summon it as a fiend rather than a celestial. On the other hand, Crawford has a spotty track record when it comes to rules interpretations, so I don't know how much stock I put in his opinion. Either way, this still doesn't tell us if it's possible to have the pseudodragon retain its dragon type. But I do think option 3 above is a nice middle ground.

(As an aside, we could simply make an errata to the Pact of the Chain that expands the possible creature types for your familiar to include aberration, dragon, elemental, and undead. This greatly expands the number of creature type options in such a way that should accommodate any patron.)

Celestial imp skin pack - $4.99

Okay, so here's the thing. The familiar "takes an animal form you choose", and "has the statistics of the chosen form". What is clear is that you must use the stat block of the creature you choose. What's not clear is if the familiar must have the appearance of that creature. Especially since refluffing one creature as a different one is something that's brought up, with toads and frogs being interchangeable, as well as ravens and crows (and parrots?).

Could you, for example, give your celestial imp blue skin instead of red? Replace their leathery wings with feathered wings? A halo instead of horns? Give them a tiny Mario shape instead of a tiny Waluigi shape? (My headcanon is that all imps look like tiny red Waluigis.)

Unfortunately, this is an "Ask your DM" question. Nothing in the spell description indicates you can change up the familiar's appearance. Since you can give the familiar a variety of forms, it seems implied at least that you could give the familiar a different appearance if it fit with the stat block. Like a parrot using the raven stat block. So there's definitely some control over the form, it's just a question of how tightly linked to the stat block does the creature's appearance need to be?

There are no other creatures that are like an imp. If appearance and stat block are tightly linked, you have no other option but to make it look like an imp. A permissive DM might just allow you to completely make up the appearance, so long as it plausibly fit the stat block in question. You could make the imp into a winged bunny with a poisonous bite, for example. A permissive DM might also allow you to make tweaks to one of the existing stat blocks, like replacing Infernal with Celestial, or changing out the shapechanger forms for different animals.

You certainly can't make an implausible mismatch between appearance and stat block. For example, you can't have a familiar that looks like a toad but uses the raven stat block. You could probably have a parrot that used the raven stat block. But could you have a pink striped raven with human legs and cat ears? Ultimately, that's up to your DM. RAW is probably that you can't. Personally, I'd be pretty lenient with a chainlock, but standard Find Familiar might still need to be recognizably an animal.

What about you?

On the subject of pseudodragons and celestial imps, how would you rule as a DM? What about appearance customization? Got any stories about funky familiars?

P. G. Macer
2020-07-16, 11:53 PM
My headcanon since I read the spell was related to option #3 “Enslaved spirit”, except that the acquisition of services is voluntary. I hypothesized that the caster performing the spell must give the spirit something it cannot otherwise get. Perhaps the spirit otherwise cannot obtain a corporeal form?

I reached the same conclusion regarding chainlock familiars that Crawford reached, i.e. you can have a celestial imp.

When I played a Celestial Chainlock, my DMs and I agreed that my Celestial sprite familiar could have little angel wings instead of insect ones, being a literal “shoulder angel” that acted as my tiefling warlock’s Jiminy Cricket to her CN Pinocchio. So I’m in the “minor re-skinning” camp.

Just before I was about to hit Submit, another thought occurred to me. We can find another possible clue as to the nature of familiars: In Curse of Strahd, familiars in Barovia take the Undead type instead of celestial, fey, or fiend. This alteration also applies to find steed, suggesting familiars and paladins’ (not counting Magical Secrets for the moment) steeds are of similar nature. Since Find Steed says “You summon a spirit that assumes the form of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed, creating a long-lasting bond with it.” (PHB p. 240, emphasis added). This seems to suggest an external origin for the familiar spirit, and that the darkness of Barovia corrupts the spirit or replaces the available kinds entirely, so I’m skeptical of your first and second hypotheses.

JellyPooga
2020-07-17, 02:00 AM
Question: Why do you think it's called "Pact of the Chain"? Summoning a Familiar is an act of binding and enslavement, hence the whole "chain" thing. The Familiar is a bound spirit, that takes the form of other creatures at your bidding; it is not a creature of singular form that has been summoned and bound. You can change the shape of this spirit by casting FF again. Note that this is not summoning a new spirit (though you can obviously dismiss one familiar and summon a new one). Given that none of the creatures your familiar can take the form of have the ability to do change type and that the closest other spell to such a thing is Reincarnation, which doesn't feature on the spell list of those that have and is also random, it's most probable that your familiar is no more an example of that creature than they are [i]actually a rat or octopus when they're in that form.

Your Pseudodragon Familiar is never a dragon. The Pseudrodragon is never even a psuedodragon. It just adopts the abilities and appearance of one when you force it into that shape. Even if we abide by the super shaky interpretation of the RAW which says the celestial/fey/fiend can't replace non-beast creature types, the familiar is still a spirit. It is still never an actual example of the creature. As a spirit, it's creature type is not beholden to its form because it's form is able to change.

Find Familiar does not summon a creature. It summons a Fey, Fiend or Celestial spirit. That's the constant. To change that, you must dismiss your familiar and summon a new one. So yeah, Celestial Imp is fine.

Porcupinata
2020-07-17, 02:41 AM
Find Familiar enslaves a weak spirit and gives it physical form

Find Familiar says that you "gain the services of a familiar", and that it is a "celestial, fey, or fiend". Nothing is open and shut here, but one way of interpreting this is that the spell finds a weak celestial, fey, or fiendish spirit and compels it into your service. Find Familiar is only a 1st level spell, so it can only enslave a particularly weak spirit, so fittingly the spirit can only take particularly weak forms.

This has some interesting implications. Perhaps your familiar retains their own personality and desires, but the spell compels it to obey you. A fiendish familiar, for example, might still desire to corrupt you and to perform evil acts, but its will is entirely suppressed by the spell. Would they remember you if you dismissed them, and they later returned in a stronger form? Summoning a fiendish familiar might grab a random lemure and cause it to take whatever beast form you've chosen. But that lemure might get promoted to a stronger type of devil later, and come back for revenge.

When a familiar dies, it might be well and truly dead, forever. Each time you cast the spell, it might summon a completely different spirit. Each new familiar has no memory of you or your party. Familiars aren't beloved pets you can keep calling back, they are mere tools, to be used and then thrown away and replaced.

The logical conclusion of this theory is, first, that Find Familiar isn't a very nice spell, and second, that the goal is to eventually enslave a stronger creature. This would be a great segue into talking about chainlocks if I didn't have one more theory to discuss first.

Of the four suggestions you gave, this one is the closest to the way I assume familiars work. The big difference is that I don't see it as enslaving an unwilling spirit but forming a friendly relationship with a willing spirit. I also don't go with your idea of the spirit getting replaced each time you cast the spell - it's the same spirit coming back and being given a new body each time.


Now how about those chainlocks?

Voice of the Chainmaster gives some pretty straightforward mechanical upgrades over the standard Find Familiar rules. There's nothing really mysterious about that invocation. Just getting that out of the way first.

Where chainlocks get mysterious is with the new forms that they can give their familiars. For example, a common argument I see, and have made myself, is that the chainlock's imp isn't a real imp, but rather a familiar spirit taking the form of an imp. This is why it won't try to corrupt you or betray you.

I'd say that's more than just "a common argument", but is in fact the RAW. A chainlock familiar is a perfectly ordinary familiar (i.e. a spirit that can be given a variety of physical forms) - it just has a wider variety of possible forms than a normal familiar. A chainlock familiar isn't an imp or pseudodragon any more than a normal familiar is a raven or a cat. They're just physical forms and the normal rules (it's a celestial, fey, or fiendish spirit) apply because we're not told otherwise.


Going back to the Find Familiar spell, it summons a spirit that take the form of a beast, but is considered a celestial, fey, or fiend rather than a beast. That last part is important, because none of the chainlock familiars are beasts. Is the fact that the imp is a fiend considered part of its stat block that overrides whatever choice of spirit you made? If you summon a fey spirit, but have it take the form of an imp, does it become a fiend? Or, can you override the familiar's creature type with your choice of celestial, fey, or fiend? Can you summon a celestial imp?

But more interesting than the imp is perhaps the pseudodragon, because it is neither beast nor celestial nor fey nor fiend. If you summon a pseudodragon as a familiar, there are three possibilities for what happens to its creature type:

The pseudodragon is always a dragon. You can't change its creature type.
The pseudodragon is never a dragon. You must choose between celestial, fey, or fiend.
The pseudodragon is sometimes a dragon. You can keep its existing creature type or override it with celestial, fey, or fiend.

If we go by strict RAW, only a beast type can be replaced with celestial, fey, or fiend, so the first option is the "correct" one. But this might only be because the original spell can only create a beast familiar. Perhaps it was intended that chainlock familiars could also have their creature types replaced, and they just forgot to write it into the pact description.

I disagree with your reading of RAW. I think that it is indeed intended that chainlock familiars have their creature types replaced, and they didn't "forget" to write it in the description - the meaning is clear enough without it needing to be written in the description. If it were not the case, that is the exception that would need to be included; and since that exception isn't included it doesn't exist. The creature type is replaced just as a normal familiar because there's nothing in the RAW to say it isn't.


Okay, so here's the thing. The familiar "takes an animal form you choose", and "has the statistics of the chosen form". What is clear is that you must use the stat block of the creature you choose. What's not clear is if the familiar must have the appearance of that creature. Especially since refluffing one creature as a different one is something that's brought up, with toads and frogs being interchangeable, as well as ravens and crows (and parrots?).

Could you, for example, give your celestial imp blue skin instead of red? Replace their leathery wings with feathered wings? A halo instead of horns? Give them a tiny Mario shape instead of a tiny Waluigi shape? (My headcanon is that all imps look like tiny red Waluigis.)

Unfortunately, this is an "Ask your DM" question. Nothing in the spell description indicates you can change up the familiar's appearance. Since you can give the familiar a variety of forms, it seems implied at least that you could give the familiar a different appearance if it fit with the stat block. Like a parrot using the raven stat block. So there's definitely some control over the form, it's just a question of how tightly linked to the stat block does the creature's appearance need to be?

There are no other creatures that are like an imp. If appearance and stat block are tightly linked, you have no other option but to make it look like an imp. A permissive DM might just allow you to completely make up the appearance, so long as it plausibly fit the stat block in question. You could make the imp into a winged bunny with a poisonous bite, for example. A permissive DM might also allow you to make tweaks to one of the existing stat blocks, like replacing Infernal with Celestial, or changing out the shapechanger forms for different animals.

You certainly can't make an implausible mismatch between appearance and stat block. For example, you can't have a familiar that looks like a toad but uses the raven stat block. You could probably have a parrot that used the raven stat block. But could you have a pink striped raven with human legs and cat ears? Ultimately, that's up to your DM. RAW is probably that you can't. Personally, I'd be pretty lenient with a chainlock, but standard Find Familiar might still need to be recognizably an animal.

I'm fairly flexible about this. As long as it has roughly the right form (some kind of small mundane animal for a normal familiar, or some kind of small winged humanoid for an imp/sprite/quasit, or a miniature dragon for pseudodragon) and is thematically appropriate (no tiny Marios, sorry) then the exact look is up to the player when they cast the spell.

We've had normal familiars as squirrels, and chainlock familiars as cherubs (using the sprite stats but with a winged-baby-angel form).

Note also that the chainlock feature doesn't say that the form is fixed, even if it is one of the enhanced ones. A chainlock can re-summon their "imp" familiar into a "pseudodragon" form by spending 10gp just like anyone using the normal spell can re-summon their "toad" familiar into a "cat" form.

Azuresun
2020-07-17, 03:44 AM
I do kind of wish we could get 5e stats for the Lantern Archon. That little flying disco ball would be perfect for a Celestial Warlock.

Bobthewizard
2020-07-17, 05:42 AM
I've always just reskinnned them in games I've played. I never asked and never had a DM tell me no once I said I'm just using the stats of X. One wizard summoned a tiny blue dragon (used bat stats) because that's the picture I found online for them, a deep gnome summoned a canary (hawk, I think). My Fey chainlock kept summoning his Sprite childhood friend who would check in with the Archfey every time he was dismissed or killed. My psionic wizard summoned a little blue glowing ball (owl stats). I never got to play it, but my GOO lock was planning on summoning an Imp that took the form of a tiny beholder.


I do kind of wish we could get 5e stats for the Lantern Archon. That little flying disco ball would be perfect for a Celestial Warlock.

Just use Imp stats and fluff it as a glowing ball.

Porcupinata
2020-07-17, 05:43 AM
I do kind of wish we could get 5e stats for the Lantern Archon. That little flying disco ball would be perfect for a Celestial Warlock.

Agreed. One of the big things I miss in 5e's monster stats is the lack of lower level archons and higher level modrons.

da newt
2020-07-17, 08:27 AM
I've always thought it was like your #3 but did not have to be enslavement - it could be a positive mutual agreement or contentious forced labor. The fey, celestial or fiend spirit comes to the material plane and assumes the corporal form that the caster chooses. If the body is destroyed, the spirit goes back to it's home plane to be resummoned. The caster forms a special bond with the summoned spirit.

I've always assumed familiars come with their own personality from the spirit.

I'm also pretty free with reskinning as long as it doesn't change the stats/mechanics or break the world.

One of my PCs was a fiend lock who didn't know his patron was a Marilith, his IMP familiar only ever appeared as a raven or was invisible - he didn't know it was an IMP/fiendish.

If you want a parrot familiar - use the raven stats or hawk or owl and go for it. If you want your sprite to appear as a will-o-wisp, sure. If you want your IMP to look like a tubby baby w/ tiny wings and a little harp, sure. If you want a faerie dragon familiar, no but you can make your psuedo dragon look just like one ...


I'm pretty free with reskinning in general. A beast master wants a lion buddy, sure use the panther stats. You want to wield a baseball bat - sure use the club or staff stats. You want your PC to be a RedHat - sure pick any race's stats and make it look however you want. As long as the stats/mechanics are left alone, do what ever aesthetic changes make you happy.

Amnestic
2020-07-17, 09:20 AM
I don't think there needs to be a one-size-fits-all explanation for familiars. In fact we know there isn't. Pseudodragon familiars (for non-chainpacts) are real creatures, not summoned, and it's expected the party will encounter them in the world, the caster forging a bond with to have them become a familiar. That's definitely not the standard for Find Familiar. Personally I prefer the 'portion of the caster's essence/soul/spirit/etc.' as an explanation but I'm always open to them being refluffed or expanded for interesting stuff.



What about you?

On the subject of pseudodragons and celestial imps, how would you rule as a DM? What about appearance customization? Got any stories about funky familiars?

In one of my current PbP games we've got a chainpact lock whose imp is his patron. She's essentially an extra half party member with a full personality and full RP interactions with PCs and NPCs. Mechanically, I've not changed anything*, but making their patron also be their familiar was neat. There's no reason this couldn't apply to non-fiendish options either by refluffing the statblocks - Lantern Archon was already mentioned. Yeah, having the archon deal poison damage is a bit...iffy, but it's easily glossed over. You could change the damage type if you really wanted to. Radiant is definitely more powerful than Poison...but would it matter in the grand scheme? Unlikely.

*though I did stretch the rules a little bit when the imp went off on a solo adventure. I let them use their Attack independently since they were alone.

Chronos
2020-07-17, 09:25 AM
The spell is, I think, clear that if it dies and you resummon it, you get the same spirit back:


When the familiar drops to 0 hit points, it disappears, leaving behind no physical form. It reappears after you cast this spell again.

It reappears, not another one replacing it.

Tanarii
2020-07-17, 05:00 PM
It may be a celestial Imp, but it's still Lawful Evil.

JellyPooga
2020-07-17, 05:39 PM
It may be a celestial Imp, but it's still Lawful Evil.

It's not an Imp.

It just looks like one. And has the same ability scores and features.

But it is, technically a Lawful Evil Celestial.

Tanarii
2020-07-17, 06:56 PM
It's not an Imp.

It just looks like one. And has the same ability scores and features.

But it is, technically a Lawful Evil Celestial.
Good point. Correction:
It may be a celestial Imp-form spirit, but it's still Lawful Evil.

Fun thing is you can recast the spell to change it's form into a celestial quasit-form spirit, and it becomes chaotic evil instead. That speaks abyssal, but not celestial.

JellyPooga
2020-07-18, 03:17 AM
Good point. Correction:
It may be a celestial Imp-form spirit, but it's still Lawful Evil.

Fun thing is you can recast the spell to change it's form into a celestial quasit-form spirit, and it becomes chaotic evil instead. That speaks abyssal, but not celestial.

It looks like we've answered Ravel the Night Hags question; "What can change the nature of a man?"

Find Familiar

da newt
2020-07-18, 07:03 AM
WRT the Imp familiar's alignment:

Why would the summoned spirit be limited to the alignment of the body form the caster creates? When you resummon your familiar in a different body form - does it change it's alignment? (No)

Furthermore, JC has tweeted that all creature alignments are just suggestions - feel free to create chaotic good Imps.

Chronos
2020-07-18, 08:46 AM
It has all of the stats of its form, except as stated. Alignment is a stat, and does not get a stated exception. Thus, RAW, a familiar has the alignment of its form. This isn't a big deal for the base forms, because they're all unaligned beasts, but it would seem to be relevant for the chainlock forms, which are intelligent and have alignments.

Amnestic
2020-07-18, 09:19 AM
Furthermore, JC has tweeted that all creature alignments are just suggestions - feel free to create chaotic good Imps.

The Alignment section near the start of the MM says pretty much the same thing.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/561287824964452363/734052205853671424/unknown.png

"The alignment specified in a monster's stat block is the default. Feel free to depart from it and change a monster's alignment to suit the needs of your campaign."

Millstone85
2020-07-18, 09:28 AM
I too believe that option #3 is correct. You summon a spirit and give it shape.

And I imagine that, in the case of a fiendish spirit, it would not even have been a lemure or a manes on its home plane. Just a formless essence, perhaps drifting through the Styx in search of a soul to merge with so it can become a lemure or a manes. Instead, it was called by you. But, eh, that might help it find your soul later on.


Got any stories about funky familiars?For my goolock's familiar, I went full stupid.

It is Kyubey from Puella Magi Madoka Magica. With the DM's permission, I made him an aberration with the stats of a quasit and the following base, wallcrawling and swimming forms:
https://i.imgur.com/vB3qUq0l.png
For the flying form, just imagine him with larger ear-thingies. Really, I am surprised that was the art I could not find.

Of course, it means that I nerfed myself on inconspicuousness. Good thing he can turn invisible.

Tanarii
2020-07-18, 09:48 AM
WRT the Imp familiar's alignment:

Why would the summoned spirit be limited to the alignment of the body form the caster creates? When you resummon your familiar in a different body form - does it change it's alignment? (No)

Furthermore, JC has tweeted that all creature alignments are just suggestions - feel free to create chaotic good Imps.


It has all of the stats of its form, except as stated. Alignment is a stat, and does not get a stated exception. Thus, RAW, a familiar has the alignment of its form. This isn't a big deal for the base forms, because they're all unaligned beasts, but it would seem to be relevant for the chainlock forms, which are intelligent and have alignments.Echoing what chronos says, it's part of the stat block, so that's what you get.

And sure, you can petition your DM to change the alignment. Personally as a DM I stick with RAW for this one. Mainly, it makes it a more meaningful choice for a chainlock to select Imp form or Quasit form. It's part of the package deal.

(Crawford's tweets were just a reiteration of the various 5e alignment rules, IMO pointing out how they are there to be a tool and not a straitjacket. In this case, the tool already works the way I want it to, as a DM.)

da newt
2020-07-18, 10:10 AM
So as a DM you rule a familiar that assumes the form of an IMP must be a lawful evil creature that therefor would be the enemy of it's Warlock if they are of a dissimilar alignment / ethos even though the familiar is NOT AN IMP - it is a spirit (Fey, Celestial, or Fiend) inhabiting the body of an IMP?

In your world, when an IMP familiar is dismissed into a pocket dimension to await your call, and then resummoned but as a sprite, psuedodragon or cat, is it lawful evil or does it's personality/alignment change with the new form?

Necrosnoop110
2020-07-18, 10:21 AM
Why does it have to be enslaved? Couldn't it have been asked/called/petitioned and agreed to serve?

Tanarii
2020-07-18, 01:17 PM
So as a DM you rule a familiar that assumes the form of an IMP must be a lawful evil creature that therefor would be the enemy of it's Warlock if they are of a dissimilar alignment / ethos even though the familiar is NOT AN IMP - it is a spirit (Fey, Celestial, or Fiend) inhabiting the body of an IMP? It does not follow that they must be enemies. It doesn't matter that it is not an Imp, it assumes the Imps or Quasit or Animal stat block. That includes a change in mental stats (intelligence, wisdom, charisma) and alignment (and thus personality).

I not only have no problem with that, I like it that way.

Plus, it has the advantage of being RAW, and thus what the player should expect by default.

Greywander
2020-07-18, 02:13 PM
Why does it have to be enslaved? Couldn't it have been asked/called/petitioned and agreed to serve?
Most people seem to be going with a lighter and softer version of the 3rd theory of the familiar's origin. So you summon a spirit from somewhere, but it's not exactly enslaved. The familiar is required to obey your commands, but this might be more of a mechanical thing so that the DM can't arbitrarily have the familiar act in a disobedient manner. I wouldn't be surprised if most people viewed the familiar more like a well trained pet, so it is obedient but still has its own free will. It has the capacity to disobey you, but rarely has a motive to do so.

As for alignment, does anyone actually care? Has your familiar's alignment ever stopped you from giving them whatever personality you wanted to? Alignment is very nearly vestigial in 5e, only impacting the mechanics in a few very niche cases. And anyway, if we assume that your familiar maintains the same personality regardless of the form they take, then it stands to reason that their alignment would also remain constant.

A celestial imp does present an odd case, though. Celestials, being made of the essence of the Upper Planes, should be Good by nature, in the same way that fiends are Evil by nature. There isn't actually any rule that says celestials must be Good, or that fiends must be Evil, but this does seem to be part of the lore of D&D, with some rare exceptions. So would a celestial imp be Good because they are a celestial? Or would they be Lawful Evil because they are taking the form of a creature who is, in essence, a physical manifestation of Law and Evil? The sprite and pseudodragon would also be different, because they aren't manifestations of raw alignment like celestials and fiends are.

Tanarii
2020-07-18, 04:02 PM
As for alignment, does anyone actually care? Has your familiar's alignment ever stopped you from giving them whatever personality you wanted to? Alignment is very nearly vestigial in 5e, only impacting the mechanics in a few very niche cases. And anyway, if we assume that your familiar maintains the same personality regardless of the form they take, then it stands to reason that their alignment would also remain constant.

Familiars are an NPC. Alignment tells the DM what personality the NPC has and helps them decide how to play them. Including deciding how to interpret commands.

Familiars are like conjured creatures. It's common for DMs to just give complete control at all times over to players, but that's not what the spell says. Unlike Animated Dead.

Millstone85
2020-07-18, 04:06 PM
Celestials, being made of the essence of the Upper Planes, should be Good by nature, in the same way that fiends are Evil by nature. There isn't actually any rule that says celestials must be Good, or that fiends must be Evil, but this does seem to be part of the lore of D&D, with some rare exceptions.I don't know anymore.

On the one hand, the PHB and MM describe them like this:
Alignment is an essential part of the nature of celestials and fiends. A devil does not choose to be lawful evil, and it doesn't tend toward lawful evil, but rather it is lawful evil in its essence. If it somehow ceased to be lawful evil, it would cease to be a devil.
Celestials are good by nature, so the exceptional celestial who strays from a good alignment is a horrifying rarity.
If an evil celestial is a rarity, a good fiend is almost inconceivable.

But then, the first example of this horrifying rarity, right in the MM? A whopping 25% of empyreans!

Next, we have the deathpact angel in GGtR and the radiant idol in RftLW. While those are atypical settings, they could still have presented these beings as fiends of celestial origin. But nope, evil celestials.

And I hear there is a good-aligned fiend in DiA. Possibly a first in 5e, but previous editions already gave us characters like Felthis ap Jerran, the worthy ruler of the gate-town to Elysium, who happens to be an ultroloth, or Eludecia, the succubus who took up paladinhood so she could be reunited with her angelic lover.

sambojin
2020-07-18, 08:25 PM
I tend to see it more as an "agreement". Much like Good Berry is an "agreement" with nature, where you provide the power of a lvl1 spell slot, and nature gives you 10x1hp heals/ foods for 24hrs out of thin air.

Same for Find Familiar. The agreement being that you will sacrifice this amount of magical power to heal/ recorporalize the spirit on the prime material plane as a familiar. What does it do with this spell power? Is it required to summon it, or is it the payment for its services? Does the spell just warp the weave in a way that a spirit is now on the material plane, or does the spirit empower themselves to be so due to the 1hr of drip-feed magic you gave them?

Chainlock might be a bit different, because your patron implicitly gave you this option, but maybe this is still drip-feeding raw magical power into the world to twist it to your patron's will, or sacrificing it straight back to your patron, so they can break those unseen walls for you. Or have one of their servants do so.

On the "they're just spirits that look like beasts and stuff, and act like them too", Conjure Animals is only summoning spirits. Yes, they're all exactly like beasts, but they're really spirits. Neutral alignment, but do they have to be?

Conjure Minor Elementals does actual elementals. Conjure Woodland Beings does actual Fey. It's summoning them from whatever planar system your campaign uses. But Conjure Animals does spirits. They're not actual beasts, just spirits acting as them in form and function. Maybe a subconscious "nature-thought and belief" of the material plane itself, of everything in it, all life's worldview, not just the caster's. But not corporalized or cooperative until they get a surge of magic to materialize them.

Does this matter? Not really. But it gives an indication of the amount of spell power it requires for the service of a spirit. Or for "nature'y materialization" of one. It's not much.

A lvl1 slot for something small, but theoretically permanent (with the caveat that if they get hurt on the material plane, they'll need more magic to reform there), as a familiar. It'll take an hour to do so, but that's because they're "their own thing" here, even under your orders. A lvl1 slot to conjure 10x magic healing-food berries for 24hrs as super-nature'y-heal'y-life'y-food'y (what everything material'y has as a basic need, pretty specifically). And a lvl3 slot to get about CR2 worth of nature spirit/s for an hour, but it's still pretty quick to do. Though that last one might be up to the DM on the form that the nature'y spirits find it easiest to take, considering the terrain and the world-thought-belief that the available spirits in the area tend to have on their "world-view" that will be "moulded" into them, with this power. Maybe feed them some Good Berries if you want the same bunch of spirits back?

Just how many spirits are hanging out, waiting to be materially empowered by a tiny bit of magic? A lot, apparently.

Maybe it ties into the "Gods needing belief to grant magic to clerics" thingo, but back the other way? You give back to the world, the spirits, nature, magic, the weave, the incorporeal, the astral/ celestial/ neutral/ evil/ chaotic plane, or towards your belief itself, with your spell slots, and that gives them the power/ magic-food for existence on the material plane. Who knows.

Feel free to discuss :)


((so, yes. Find Familiar should definitely be on the Ranger's spell list, and probably the Druid's as well. Seems like a wasted opportunity to not make Rangers cool, and druids slightly more OP))

Nagog
2020-07-19, 01:02 AM
I'd also look into the Flock of Familiars spell, and see if any of the information present there can help deduce what a Familiar actually is.

For me, it all depends on the character creating the familiar: I had a Necromancer who had a familiar of an owl, but the DM allowed them to be categorized as Undead due to the flavor text for it being it's reanimated with a soul that hasn't been born yet (part of his studies on the nature of the Soul). For an Artificer with a feat or otherwise picking up a Familiar: Perhaps it's an intelligent construct, similar in nature to a Homunculus, but with different applications.
It didn't change anything and it never actually came up in play (very few things would be changed by changing creature type), so I'd allow it in my games as well if a player asked.

Nagog
2020-07-19, 03:59 PM
I just had another thought on the nature of Familiars that helps narrow down which of these theories has the higher likelyhood of being true: The Find Familiar spell is Conjuration. Meaning that it doesn't come from within yourself, it's brought from an external source and bound to you.

Porcupinata
2020-07-20, 09:19 AM
And I hear there is a good-aligned fiend in DiA.

Kind-of...


There is a good-aligned devil that the party encounters, who is being bullied by his peers for his beliefs. The party can help him, and if they do then he has useful information for them.

According to the adventure, he's only good-aligned because he's suffered brain damage and if he's cured he'll return to his normal evil nature.

I changed that when I ran it, and had him genuinely trying to redeem himself and excape his diabolic nature. The party took him under their guidance and protection, and at the end of the adventure when they were able to redeem Zariel she turned him into a Lantern Archon and took him back to the Seven Heavens with her.