Breaking the Combat Monopoly

[Nagog]

Hey ya'll!

So I've recently (3 or 4 sessions ago) had a fighter join the game I DM, and as a player they're mostly interested in combat, but have been very gracious with a mostly RP campaign/party. As a result, I've been upping the random encounters to give them time to shine and enjoy play more (until they joined combat was very rare, mostly rp and stuff).

Unfortunately, we also have a Hexblade 5/Paladin 1 with PAM in the party, and it's becoming increasingly apparent that the fighter (who's a Rune Knight so it's no slacker mechanically) can't keep up with damage output of the Hexblade. I'd like the Fighter to stick around and enjoy their time playing, and I'm feeling fairly out of options, as she's the only one who doesn't have extensive backstory investment or RP class options. Is there anything I can do to give the Fighter more enjoyment without directly nuking the Hexblade's build?

[Keltest]

Give them a magical sword to play with? I havent met a fighter yet who wouldnt enjoy a sword that can, i dunno, be thrown at a giant, decapitate it, then return to your hand or something. It doesnt even necessarily have to make them more optimized, just more entertaining. "I throw my sword and cut the giant's head off" is always more entertaining than "i stab him in the ankles for the 20th time."

[stoutstien]

How exactly is the hexblade dealing enough damage every encounter that the rune knight is feeling inadequate?

[Kyutaru]

If the character can't compete in damage then compete elsewhere. Fighters have combat tricks and make good use of them. Action Surge is typically used for more attacks but can be used more actions in any regard. I've had a player in my game throw away his sword and become an MMA grappler. Just need to remind them of what Fighters have that Warlocks don't.

[Nagog]

How exactly is the hexblade dealing enough damage every encounter that the rune knight is feeling inadequate?

+1 scythe (glaive), Hexblades Curse, PAM, Thirsting Blade. 3 attacks per round (vs. Fighter's 2), adding proficiency to all damage, expanded crit range, +1d6 from Hex, etc.

The extra 1d6 damage from Hex took them past the damage boost from Giant's Might, then everything else pushed it so much further that it wasn't even close.

[Nagog]

If the character can't compete in damage then compete elsewhere. Fighters have combat tricks and make good use of them. Action Surge is typically used for more attacks but can be used more actions in any regard. I've had a player in my game throw away his sword and become an MMA grappler. Just need to remind them of what Fighters have that Warlocks don't.

It's more of an optimization issue, combined with how overpowered Hexblade is in general. The Warlock has abilities to cover almost every pilar of play, whereas the Fighter is built for Combat. With the Hexblade combining the high potential of the Warlock with the easy martial optimization of the Hexblade, they can compete twice per short rest using Action Surge, after that they're done. If it were something like Fighter vs. Rogue where Rogue can Nova their damage to compete but are less effective against groups it would be an easy issue, but the Hexblade (particularly pre-level 11 when Fighters get 3x attacks) gets all the martial prowess of the Fighter minus all of the magic ability of the full caster side.

[ProsecutorGodot]

+1 scythe (glaive), Hexblades Curse, PAM, Thirsting Blade. 3 attacks per round (vs. Fighter's 2), adding proficiency to all damage, expanded crit range, +1d6 from Hex, etc.

The extra 1d6 damage from Hex took them past the damage boost from Giant's Might, then everything else pushed it so much further that it wasn't even close.

The warlock shouldn't be keeping that sort of damage up in every encounter unless you're giving them a short rest between every one. Hexblades Curse is one target per short rest at this level, so it's not surprising if the Warlock is topping the damage chart against that one target.

Hexblades Curse and Hex take a bonus action to cast, and a bonus action to reaaply for Hex. Turns spent prepping or moving Hex are turns where the Warlock doesn't get a PAM attack.

[Dienekes]

The warlock shouldn't be keeping that sort of damage up in every encounter unless you're giving them a short rest between every one. Hexblades Curse is one target per short rest at this level, so it's not surprising if the Warlock is topping the damage chart against that one target.

Hexblades Curse and Hex take a bonus action to cast, and a bonus action to reaaply for Hex. Turns spent prepping or moving Hex are turns where the Warlock doesn't get a PAM attack.

Nagog mentioned it was an RP heavy campaign. I’m guessing more than two encounters per short rest is a rarity.

Hell I know in my campaign we’ve had whole sessions without a combat encounter. But then our games are short and my players like to RP.

[RSP]

The warlock shouldn't be keeping that sort of damage up in every encounter unless you're giving them a short rest between every one. Hexblades Curse is one target per short rest at this level, so it's not surprising if the Warlock is topping the damage chart against that one target.

Hexblades Curse and Hex take a bonus action to cast, and a bonus action to reaaply for Hex. Turns spent prepping or moving Hex are turns where the Warlock doesn't get a PAM attack.

Just to follow on this: more enemies each combat will eat into their damage output, versus just having one big bad with lots of HPs. If the Hexblade is moving Hex, they’re not using PAM so much.

I imagine the issue is also combat being rare: if every combat, the Warlock is full slots, yeah, they’ll continually shine.

[stoutstien]

+1 scythe (glaive), Hexblades Curse, PAM, Thirsting Blade. 3 attacks per round (vs. Fighter's 2), adding proficiency to all damage, expanded crit range, +1d6 from Hex, etc.

The extra 1d6 damage from Hex took them past the damage boost from Giant's Might, then everything else pushed it so much further that it wasn't even close.

Other than the bonus action conflict preventing the hexblade from realistically getting 3 attacks with both hex and curse until the 3 round unless you are allowing pre debuffing every fight the rune knight is still a fighter with action surge allowing them to drop 4 attacks 1/SR.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If the Hexblade/Paladin is using a Glaive, he can't use Cha for attack and damage with it, that ability doesn't work with any weapon that has the two-handed property.

[ProsecutorGodot]

If the Hexblade/Paladin is using a Glaive, he can't use Cha for attack and damage with it, that ability doesn't work with any weapon that has the two-handed property.

True, although weapons conjured with Pact of the Blade can. I assume Improved Pact Weapon is what gives the player a +1 Scythe Glaive.

[Nagog]

Nagog mentioned it was an RP heavy campaign. I’m guessing more than two encounters per short rest is a rarity.

Hell I know in my campaign we’ve had whole sessions without a combat encounter. But then our games are short and my players like to RP.

This is very much the case. With realistic travel times (takes a few days to get from town to town, with most days not having random encounters), multiple combats without a short rest between have never happened, even before the Fighter joined in.


Other than the bonus action conflict preventing the hexblade from realistically getting 3 attacks with both hex and curse until the 3 round unless you are allowing pre debuffing every fight the rune knight is still a fighter with action surge allowing them to drop 4 attacks 1/SR.

They didn't throw in Hex until towards the end of the fight, and even then it was simply icing on the cake with everything else they had.

[Ignimortis]

+1 scythe (glaive), Hexblades Curse, PAM, Thirsting Blade. 3 attacks per round (vs. Fighter's 2), adding proficiency to all damage, expanded crit range, +1d6 from Hex, etc.

The extra 1d6 damage from Hex took them past the damage boost from Giant's Might, then everything else pushed it so much further that it wasn't even close.

If the hexblade gets two rounds to set up his Hex and Curse, what's the Fighter doing during that time? 2d10+2d6+10 on the first round versus a Giant's Might greatsword Fighter who should do 6d6+12 damage right there, and keep doing 6d6+12 damage unless they pop Frost Rune+Action Surge and do 12d6+28 that round.

Also, do you have one encounter with one beefy enemy per day? Because while Hex can indeed be carried around for hours, Hexblade's Curse can't, and expires the same moment the enemy it was on dies. I understand if your DMing style doesn't support multiple encounters per day, but that's how the game was designed and balanced. Rune Knight can stay active for two fights per day without short resting, Hexblade mostly burns out after one.

[stoutstien]

This is very much the case. With realistic travel times (takes a few days to get from town to town, with most days not having random encounters), multiple combats without a short rest between have never happened, even before the Fighter joined in.



They didn't throw in Hex until towards the end of the fight, and even then it was simply icing on the cake with everything else they had.

I think you need to break down a somewhat standard combat encounter. By my math the rune knight is actually put preforming the hexblade in most instances.

[MaxWilson]

+1 scythe (glaive), Hexblades Curse, PAM, Thirsting Blade. 3 attacks per round (vs. Fighter's 2), adding proficiency to all damage, expanded crit range, +1d6 from Hex, etc.

The extra 1d6 damage from Hex took them past the damage boost from Giant's Might, then everything else pushed it so much further that it wasn't even close.

There's your problem. The Hexblade took PAM and apparently the Fighter did not. Consequently the Hexblade gained a bonus action attack and a reaction attack, and the Fighter gained... something worth less than that. If he'd taken GWM and PAM he'd be ahead of the Hexblade on damage right now, in addition to being way better at grappling and shoving. (The Fighter can exploit PAM+GWM to do a Shove prone + attack at advantage + bonus attack at advantage, with a good chance of a reaction attack too especially if he retreats away from the prone enemy, and the Hexblade cannot do that because Thirsting Blade does not give you extra grapple attempts, only attacks with your Pact Weapon. The Fighter also presumably has higher Strength, unless he's a Dex fighter in which case he should be exploiting archery.)

You're at least 6th level so the Fighter should have an extra ASI relative to the Hexblade. He should definitely be ahead on at-will damage if he wants to be, so either he doesn't know how (maybe he boosted Strength to 20 instead of investing in an early feat, which is a common mistake) or he has other priorities.

[Misterwhisper]

There's your problem. The Hexblade took PAM and apparently the Fighter did not. Consequently the Hexblade gained a bonus action attack and a reaction attack, and the Fighter gained... something worth less than that. If he'd taken GWM and PAM he'd be ahead of the Hexblade on damage right now, in addition to being way better at grappling and shoving. (The Fighter can exploit PAM+GWM to do a Shove prone + attack at advantage + bonus attack at advantage, with a good chance of a reaction attack too especially if he retreats away from the prone enemy, and the Hexblade cannot do that because Thirsting Blade does not give you extra grapple attempts, only attacks with your Pact Weapon. The Fighter also presumably has higher Strength, unless he's a Dex fighter in which case he should be exploiting archery.)

You're at least 6th level so the Fighter should have an extra ASI relative to the Hexblade. He should definitely be ahead on at-will damage if he wants to be, so either he doesn't know how (maybe he boosted Strength to 20 instead of investing in an early feat, which is a common mistake) or he has other priorities.

It is more of the same:

"My 1 fight per game is not going like I planned, my casters are gods and the martials are bored."

Same as every other problem in 5e they planned the classes to play in a style that almost no table uses, hell, even their own modules don't use it.

[micahaphone]

Have you considered using a variant gritty rest system? Basically, one night's rest is a short rest, a few days of downtime is needed for a long rest. It's meant to help balance out a less combat centric campaign, so that every fight doesn't occur at 100% hp/resources.

This way, having more than 1 combat between short rests is more feasible to your style. 2 Fights in a day is doable, right?

Despite the name, it doesn't make the game grittier or darker, just means you need to be a touch more careful with your spell slots.

[sithlordnergal]

This is very much the case. With realistic travel times (takes a few days to get from town to town, with most days not having random encounters), multiple combats without a short rest between have never happened, even before the Fighter joined in.



They didn't throw in Hex until towards the end of the fight, and even then it was simply icing on the cake with everything else they had.


This is a case where Gritty Realism might be a better fit for your play style. Because there's generally only one encounter per short rest, there's no reason for the Palalock to worry about resource management. They can just blow all their short rest resources in the enounter, toss out whatever smites they want, and bam, encounter over. No need to think about the repercussions.

Either way, the best way you're going to fix this is by getting more encounters between your short rests. Otherwise the Palalock will continue to dominate every combat encounter.

[MaxWilson]

It is more of the same:

"My 1 fight per game is not going like I planned, my casters are gods and the martials are bored."

Same as every other problem in 5e they planned the classes to play in a style that almost no table uses, ----, even their own modules don't use it.


Have you considered using a variant gritty rest system? Basically, one night's rest is a short rest, a few days of downtime is needed for a long rest. It's meant to help balance out a less combat centric campaign, so that every fight doesn't occur at 100% hp/resources.

This way, having more than 1 combat between short rests is more feasible to your style. 2 Fights in a day is doable, right?

Despite the name, it doesn't make the game grittier or darker, just means you need to be a touch more careful with your spell slots.


This is a case where Gritty Realism might be a better fit for your play style. Because there's generally only one encounter per short rest, there's no reason for the Palalock to worry about resource management. They can just blow all their short rest resources in the enounter, toss out whatever smites they want, and bam, encounter over. No need to think about the repercussions.

Either way, the best way you're going to fix this is by getting more encounters between your short rests. Otherwise the Palalock will continue to dominate every combat encounter.

This advice is all wrong for this situation. Having longer combats will not help a Fighter who gets only 2 attacks per round to outdamage someone who's getting three (plus a reaction attack). Having 30 rounds of combat in an adventuring day will just help the guy with 3 attacks pull even further ahead of the guy with only 2 attacks.

PAM also goes nicely with Rune Knight/Giant Might because it adds damage to every attack.

[micahaphone]

This advice is all wrong for this situation. Having longer combats will not help a Fighter who gets only 2 attacks per round to outdamage someone who's getting three (plus a reaction attack). Having 30 rounds of combat in an adventuring day will just help the guy with 3 attacks pull even further ahead of the guy with only 2 attacks.

PAM also goes nicely with Rune Knight/Giant Might because it adds damage to every attack.

isn't part of the issue that the hexadin always has hexblade's curse? (plus warlock slots, of course) And assuming that the player takes a second level in Paladin, soon he'll be smiting too, which should further increase this disparity when they're all fresh and fully rested.

[MaxWilson]

isn't part of the issue that the hexadin always has hexblade's curse? (plus warlock slots, of course) And assuming that the player takes a second level in Paladin, soon he'll be smiting too, which should further increase this disparity when they're all fresh and fully rested.

I don't think that really is part of the issue, because Rune Knight has Giant's Might to offset Hexblade's Curse. (And let's not forget about stuff like Haug, Ise, and Uvar runes once every single short rest! In fact all of the runes are pretty OP (https://www.dndbeyond.com/subclasses/rune-knight-ua) in their own distinct ways.) I think the problem is number of attacks, plain and simple. If I'm doing 2d6 (greatsword) +5(Strength) +d6(Giant Might) (15.5) damage per hit, twice per round, and you're doing d10 or d4 (glaive) +3(Cha) +3(Hexblade's Curse) +1 (Improved Pact Weapon) +d6 (Hex) (15 or 12), three times per round, you're going to out-damage me any time you somehow manage to get three bonus actions in a row on the same target. (Hexblade's Curse, Hex, and finally the PAM bonus attack.) Plus you get extra attacks as a reaction whenever anyone approaches you.

People often tell newbies to max out their attack stat before taking any feats and in this case listening to that advice may have led someone astray. If my hypothetical Rune Knight above had +4 from Strength but also had a third attack and a reaction attack, he would be doing (d10 or d4+4+d6)(13 or 10) damage three to four times (36-49) instead of 15.5 damage two times (31). It's a significant damage boost. It's an even bigger boost if you do other things to maximize it like knock enemies prone and then GWM them at advantage, then eat their weak opportunity attack (disadvantage for being prone) and wait for them to come at you again (and eat your powerful reaction attack).

Or you could just hit them with an Ild rune of course, and then GWM Action Surge them into oblivion with advantage.

[micahaphone]

Good point max, I stand corrected.

[Zhorn]

As much as I am not fond of the Gritty Realism's take on short/long rests, it does sound like the easiest fix for such a game.

[Hael]

People often tell newbies to max out their attack stat before taking any feats and in this case listening to that advice may have led someone astray..

The feat/asi order recommendations given by many people in general are all wrong. Extra attack is a big win over an ASI progression (and in fact even over elven accuracy).

Extra attack(PAM,xbow) > elven accuracy (including the half asi progression) > GWM/SS > ASI

A few are close. PAM vs EA is razor thin mathematically if you have permanent advantage. And the asi vs GWM depends on the distribution of monsters and their ACs as well as how much you generate advantage.

[MrStabby]

I agree with a lot of the things said here so far but would also suggest that you could get a bit more miliage out of changing up your enemies. Look at things like invisible stalkers. Suddenly the hexblades curse and that attack of opportunity from PAM are looking a lot weaker. Even just enemies that lay down a fog cloud for the same effect might be effective. I would also consider shifting the defensive emphasis from AC to HP a bit - especially when Paladin2 comes online. This will slightly lower the impact of Hexblade's curse and will have a further impact onmitigating the power of smites.

You can also change tactics a bit; some hit and run from enemies to trigger the hexblade curse and buff spells in general then not fight till it has run out.

Enemy spells and effects that hit strength will also be useful. If in a combat, the fighter is making attacks for three rounds whilst the hexblade is making attacks for two and using eldritch blast for one round then it will beging to even things up. Spells like entangle and web are the bane of a lot of hexblades - just be sure to have the casters duck behind cover to help keep concentration.


With a full range of battlefield conditions - from bright sunshine to deep fog and with a broad range of enemies that do more than run forwards in clear view and hit people with pointy sticks the comparison should be a bit more even.

[Kireban]

Ammm a question:
it is a warlock and he goes melee with 2h weapon. how is he staying alive while jumping the local boss?
what is his ac? what is the warrior's ac? what weapon does the warrior have? what are their stats?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

True, although weapons conjured with Pact of the Blade can. I assume Improved Pact Weapon is what gives the player a +1 Scythe Glaive.

Right, but he only has Warlock 1, you need Warlock 3 for Pact of the Blade.

[MrStabby]

Hey ya'll!

Unfortunately, we also have a Hexblade 5/Paladin 1 with PAM in the party

Looks like more than 1 level.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Right, but he only has Warlock 1, you need Warlock 3 for Pact of the Blade.

He has paladin 1, 5 levels of warlock.

EDIT: Speaking of levels, this would be a different story if the Hexblade was "optimally" only taking a single level in warlock.

[J-H]

Point buy or rolled stats? Could be one just has better stats than the other.

[jmartkdr]

One way to give the Rune Knight an extra boost is to get them regular access to potions of growth, though I'd make sure they're set up so that only the Rune Knight can use them (or they work better for them). This plays on their existing concept well. That or a magic weapon that isn't a polearm.

The tricky part is you need buy-in from the players (especially the hexblade) that this is a game issue - otherwise it could feel like you're just favoring the new player with cool stuff.

[jmartkdr]

Also, for mechanical fixes:

Is there any way you can make knowing runes a central part of an adventure? This might give the player a chance to stretch their rp muscles and take the spotlight outside of combat.

What kinds of weapons does the rune knight use? If they dual-wield, they should be able to keep up with the hexblade one they find a couple +1 weapons (and IME +1 longswords are at least twice as common as +1 glaives). If they're using a sheild, you could play to their defenses so they can be extra tanky. If they have a greatweapon it's a little trickier but there's some fun to be had with thematic magic mauls.

[da newt]

Has the Fighter said that she feels like she isn't keeping up in combat? Is she unhappy with the way things are? (Is there really an issue?)

It seems the Fighter Player didn't optimize their PC for combat as well as the Warlock/Pali did. I don't think this is the DM's responsibility to fix. But if I was the DM, I'd allow the Fighter to swap out ASI/feats if they wanted to (PAM, GWM, shield master, ...). Other than that, let them figure out how to make their PC what they want it to be.

[Nagog]

Ammm a question:
it is a warlock and he goes melee with 2h weapon. how is he staying alive while jumping the local boss?
what is his ac? what is the warrior's ac? what weapon does the warrior have? what are their stats?

Stats are rolled in this campaign (and in all of the campaigns these players run), so both the Fighter and Hexblade have maxed primary stats. the Hexblade is a heavy optimizer, and would have taken PAM/GWM had I not disallowed that particular combo. The Fighter is using a greatsword, though I do not recall the feats she took, though I think one of them was used to buff either Con or Str (perhaps both, they're a Triton so they don't have a +2 stat bonus to stack on an 18 to max a stat at the start).


Has the Fighter said that she feels like she isn't keeping up in combat? Is she unhappy with the way things are? (Is there really an issue?)

It seems the Fighter Player didn't optimize their PC for combat as well as the Warlock/Pali did. I don't think this is the DM's responsibility to fix. But if I was the DM, I'd allow the Fighter to swap out ASI/feats if they wanted to (PAM, GWM, shield master, ...). Other than that, let them figure out how to make their PC what they want it to be.

She didn't optimize as well, no, but shes also a newer player to the game and combat is what she built the character for. I've been incorporating more combat to help her have more fun (as there isn't as much for her to do out of combat), and the Hexblade (who also has plenty to do out of combat) is stealing that spotlight as well. I'm trying to provide an environment where everybody has their own chance to shine in one way or another, but when other players consistently steal the spotlight, it leads to players feeling disinterested and ultimately dropping out of the game.


This is a case where Gritty Realism might be a better fit for your play style. Because there's generally only one encounter per short rest, there's no reason for the Palalock to worry about resource management. They can just blow all their short rest resources in the enounter, toss out whatever smites they want, and bam, encounter over. No need to think about the repercussions.

Either way, the best way you're going to fix this is by getting more encounters between your short rests. Otherwise the Palalock will continue to dominate every combat encounter.

If I'm not mistaken, Gritty Realism is having a night of rest be a short rest and a few days of downtime be a long rest?
I'm not sure how this favors one of these two players over the other, and seems to me that it would be more of a punishment to the Artificer and Arcane Trickster in the party, who have next to no short rest resources for in or out of combat.

[stoutstien]

I think the easiest way to address this presumed issue is to address the way the encounter(s) are set up. If the only factor in the encounter is damage in/out then of course the character that spent every opportunity cost to be good at damage is going to look unreadably powerful.
You stated your table is very much into RP focused play so why not include that into the encounters? Give them choices and goals within a fight. Have gates that need lifted or pillars to be knocked over to stop lava flows. Have a relic that are continually summoning radioactive halfling zombies that need to removed from the chest of the zombie hill giant's chest. Have a demigod that can't be defeated by force so the party has to reason with them so they don't open a portal to the plane of cotton candy.

[CheddarChampion]

If the party gets their hands on a magic greatsword will the fighter automatically get it?
The Warlock has PAM and will probably see it as a downgrade, but the other party members...
What is the rest of the party?

I suggest a +1/+2/Flametongue/Frostbrand greatsword.

Other than that if these random encounters have about 1 enemy for every PC, Hexblade's Curse and Hex will be less useful.
The Hexblade could only use HC once on one enemy and would have to reapply Hex whenever their target drops.
Every round spent reapplying a damage buff would be a round where they can't make the bonus action attack.

[Kyutaru]

I think the easiest way to address this presumed issue is to address the way the encounter(s) are set up. If the only factor in the encounter is damage in/out then of course the character that spent every opportunity cost to be good at damage is going to look unreadably powerful.
You stated your table is very much into RP focused play so why not include that into the encounters? Give them choices and goals within a fight. Have gates that need lifted or pillars to be knocked over to stop lava flows. Have a relic that are continually summoning radioactive halfling zombies that need to removed from the chest of the zombie hill giant's chest. Have a demigod that can't be defeated by force so the party has to reason with them so they don't open a portal to the plane of cotton candy.

Pretty much this. It's weird how so many players try to play this like Infinity or Chainmail or Warhammer 40k. There are better suited games for combat. Combat has always been D&D's weakest and least balanced point with recent editions attempting to bring it up to snuff with the rest of the game. Yet the roleplay has been and will always be the core focus and so much that seems useless is only so in combat.

[MaxWilson]

Stats are rolled in this campaign (and in all of the campaigns these players run), so both the Fighter and Hexblade have maxed primary stats. the Hexblade is a heavy optimizer, and would have taken PAM/GWM had I not disallowed that particular combo. The Fighter is using a greatsword, though I do not recall the feats she took, though I think one of them was used to buff either Con or Str (perhaps both, they're a Triton so they don't have a +2 stat bonus to stack on an 18 to max a stat at the start).

She didn't optimize as well, no, but shes also a newer player to the game and combat is what she built the character for. I've been incorporating more combat to help her have more fun (as there isn't as much for her to do out of combat), and the Hexblade (who also has plenty to do out of combat) is stealing that spotlight as well.

It seems to me you've got two choices: either identify the things the Fighter is good at and do more encounters that emphasize that aspect (e.g. big AoEs or hordes of monsters if the Fighter is tougher, to the point where the Fighter is the last one left standing), or acknowledge to the player that optimizing your first character perfectly isn't easy, and working with her on an rebuild, which you could fluff as retraining under some master fighter somewhere. (Or both.)

There is one other thing you could do... split the party more. Not necessarily literally, but for example if there's a huge group of monsters (Githyanki, or maybe Medusas) whom the PCs need to bypass/coerce, too many monsters to defeat, but the monsters have a cultural belief in single combat and are willing to choose four champions to fight four PCs 1 on 1, one at a time, then no one else will be interfering in the Fighter's fight. If the PCs win the majority of the fights, the monsters consider themselves defeated and will obey you. Otherwise they consider themselves the victors and expect you to obey them.

This gives the Fighter a chance to play without measuring herself against the Hexblade.

[patchyman]

The Hexblade’s greatest strength is also their greatest weakness: their SADness. If you want to give the Fighter chances to shine, create encounters where being able to use Strength in combat is an advantage. Always, always, always change it up so the Hexblade doesn’t feel like you are picking on him.

1) Multiple spider enemies with the Web spell. Fighter will be able to break free. Warlock will either waste spells or turns breaking free.
2) Classic encounter against monsters near a chasm. There should be multiple monsters, but they should be strong enough that the Hexblade cannot consistently one-shot them. Fighter uses Athl to pitch them into the chasm, Hexblade must battle them the tradition as l way.
3) Fight underwater against ranged enemy whose tactic is to kite them. Players can use Ath (or Action surge) to swim further to deny this tactic.
4) Enemies use movable wooden palisades with murder holes. Enemies have 3/4 cover behind the palisade, but the heroes can use an Action and a Str check to destroy the palisade.
5) Encounters where the enemies have 3/4 cover and can only be reached by climbing.

Happy hunting!

[Ertwin]

She didn't optimize as well, no, but shes also a newer player to the game and combat is what she built the character for. I've been incorporating more combat to help her have more fun (as there isn't as much for her to do out of combat), and the Hexblade (who also has plenty to do out of combat) is stealing that spotlight as well. I'm trying to provide an environment where everybody has their own chance to shine in one way or another, but when other players consistently steal the spotlight, it leads to players feeling disinterested and ultimately dropping out of the game.



It seems that you should probably talk to the Hexblade player about stealing the spotlight. The players should be working together to make sure everyone is having fun. You can make mechanical changes, but some responsibility rests on the players to allow each other to shine.

Encourage your experienced players to help make the game an enjoyable experience for the newbie.

[Barny]

Hey ya'll!

So I've recently (3 or 4 sessions ago) had a fighter join the game I DM, and as a player they're mostly interested in combat, but have been very gracious with a mostly RP campaign/party. As a result, I've been upping the random encounters to give them time to shine and enjoy play more (until they joined combat was very rare, mostly rp and stuff).

Unfortunately, we also have a Hexblade 5/Paladin 1 with PAM in the party, and it's becoming increasingly apparent that the fighter (who's a Rune Knight so it's no slacker mechanically) can't keep up with damage output of the Hexblade. I'd like the Fighter to stick around and enjoy their time playing, and I'm feeling fairly out of options, as she's the only one who doesn't have extensive backstory investment or RP class options. Is there anything I can do to give the Fighter more enjoyment without directly nuking the Hexblade's build?


I think you have the wrong direction.

Nerfing 1 PC's combat capacity doesn't necessarily bring more satisfaction to another PC.
If I were you, I would spend more time to design some challenging monsters or encounter setting that require more cooperation from the party, instead of seeking ways to nerf 1 PC and buff another.

For example, you can create or find monsters with grapple/charge abilities. Hexblade will have good Cha and Con, but probably lower Str/Dex than Fighter. So Hexiblade is much easier to get grappled and usually restricted after being grapple by monsters, or knocked prone after being charged.

Another example is to set some challenging environments, like strong windy or ship encounters during the storm, which requires PCs to make an Str save to avoid falling prone or pushed away (DC up to the situation) at the start of their turn.

If you make a simple setting straightforward encounter, it's just dmg race to kill the enemies.
In this case, some classes always have advantages over another in dmg meter; your story/ fight setting is hardly memorable and PCs just remember and compare their dmg numbers.

If you spend more time on creating dramatic story/ interesting exploration/ deadly enemy and challenging encounter setting, PCs will have more memorable moments in your world, adventure like a tactical unit, and pay less attention to compare their individual numbers.

[Yakk]

1) Switch to gritty rests. Explain that this is because your game is a story-and-exploration driven game.

2) On days you do have encounters, have 2-3 encounters. This can involve breaking down a single "big" encounter into multiple.

For example, if you are harried by dire wolves, it can come in more than 1 wave. Or the blood from a fight with bandits draws dire wolves.

Hexblade per hit damage is:
1d6 (encounter resource) + 3 (encounter resource) + stat
then then either 1d10 or 1d4 per hit. 2 attacks until combo is set up, then 3.

Fighter is:
2d6 + stat + 1d6 (daily resource, 2x per day).

In addition, never ever have a single monster in a fight. Hexblade's curse is 1 target per short rest. Hex takes a bonus action to move between targets.

And if everything else fails, just hand out a flaming greatsword.

[Skylivedk]

IMX PAM falls off for Hexblade's later. You simply have too many good options for both your bonus action and your reaction.

In tier 3, you quite often want your reaction for either counterspell or the level 10 ability.

For your bonus action you have Hexblade's Curse and maybe Hex and quite often (+25%) of the time you will proc the bonus action from GWM.

That's not to undermine your point. I had exactly the same experience of boring the Battle Master out of the water in the majority of our Tomb of Annihilation and Rise of Tiamat campaigns.

[DwarfFighter]

How about scaling back combat encounters and getting the fighter invested in the RP?

You can also contrive of ways splitting the party up during encounters. Sometimes a more complex encounter may require the PCs to perform concurrent actions at different locations, even if this is just a few hundred meters apart, or separated by physical barries.

[Yakk]

The thing is, most fighter's don't have as good a demand on their bonus action or reaction than this Hex build does.

If the fighter's biggest problem was "use reaction to deal 20 damage to a foe, or counter an enemy's entire turn", that is a bit of a "oh poor rich little me" problem.

---

PAM is such a good feat, it turns otherwise meh weapons into the #1 melee weapon in the game.

There is no equivalent feat for swords.

Master of the Blade
You have mastered fighting with long swords, short swords and great swords.
* When a sword damage die lands on a even value, roll 1 additional die of damage. Do not apply this rule to the additional dice.
* While wielding on or two swords and missed by an attack, you can expend a reaction to move up to half of your speed. At the end of this movement(if any) you can then make an attack with the sword(s) you are wielding on the triggering attacker.

(2d6 exploding is 8.4, 2d8 exploding is 10.3, 2d10 exploding is 12.2, 3d6 exploding is 12.6).

Let's compare an 18 stat PAM fighter to an 18 stat GS and Longsword fighters.

PAM: 3d10+1d4+16=35, 36.7 with GWF
MotB GS: 6d6+12=43.5, 47.75 with GWF (30% more than PA)
MotB LS: 3d8+12=32.25, 38.25 with Dueling (4% more than PA)
MotB SSx2: 5d6+16=42.25, 46.25 with TWF (26% more than PA)

Base GW+Polearm: 2d10+8=19.9
Base GW+GS: 4d6+8=23.7 (19% more than PA)
Base D+LS: 2d8+12=21 (5% more than PA)
Base TW+SSx2: 3d6+12=22.5 (13% more than PA)

(this assumes all of them get their reaction attack in).

PAM gets an additional tap, which stacks well with GWM

PAM: 3d10+1d4+16=75, 76.7 with GWF
MotB GS: 6d6+12=73.5, 77.75 with GWF (1% more than PA)

So this isn't far off.

Design notes:
The "reroll on even" both scales nicely with GWF style, and gives you +50% weapon die damage. It keeps the ratio of SS:LS:GS pretty stable. And it doesn't add a new tap.

The "attack if missed" rewards shield users a bit; it is more likely to go off. TWF gets 2 attacks from it (which keeps it in contention with the GWF damage wise).

[Hael]

You are playing into an optimized Hexblades biggest strength.. that is raw versatile single target damage on demand. Very few builds in the game are going to have that sort of net dpr, and those that do will typically involve some gishness and multiclassing. Even a fighter can’t really compete on this plane, they’re not far, but still.

What the fighter does have is slightly higher ac, more hitpoints, maneuvers and grappling. So my advice is to go after the Hexblade. Have the npcs grapple him and punch him in the face a few times. He will still hit hard due to ranged EB, but he’ll likely disengage from melee and the fighters numbers will start to be competitive again.

And allow the fighter to respec into a better build, or maybe offer him an extra feat in one of the next encounters (for instance one of the recent UA melee feats seems appropriate, they’re not super strong but still a nice bonus)

[Pex]

Not that I have a solution, but another perspective might open up a new avenue to find one. Maybe it's not the damage that is causing the problem but that the hexblade gets to do more things. The fighter attacks doing damage. The hexblade Curses then attacks. Next round the hexblade Hexes then attacks. Next round hexblade attacks then as a bonus gets another attack. Hexblade also has a +1 magic weapon as a class feature. Every round the hexblade is pushing a button to activate something cool and still gets to attack. The hexblade gets more fun doing stuff. The fighter needs more buttons to push.

[MrStabby]

How about scaling back combat encounters and getting the fighter invested in the RP?

You can also contrive of ways splitting the party up during encounters. Sometimes a more complex encounter may require the PCs to perform concurrent actions at different locations, even if this is just a few hundred meters apart, or separated by physical barries.

I think pushing non combat is less likely to work. A class with charisma as a prime stat, access to spells and invocations vs a fighter?


Not that I have a solution, but another perspective might open up a new avenue to find one. Maybe it's not the damage that is causing the problem but that the hexblade gets to do more things. The fighter attacks doing damage. The hexblade Curses then attacks. Next round the hexblade Hexes then attacks. Next round hexblade attacks then as a bonus gets another attack. Hexblade also has a +1 magic weapon as a class feature. Every round the hexblade is pushing a button to activate something cool and still gets to attack. The hexblade gets more fun doing stuff. The fighter needs more buttons to push.

I think this is a good point. Or at least reflects how I would feel in the situation.

Giving everyone in the party a boon that let's them cast various spells as a bonus action might help this.

[MaxWilson]

I think this is a good point. Or at least reflects how I would feel in the situation.

Giving everyone in the party a boon that let's them cast various spells as a bonus action might help this.

Or introduce the fighter to the rules for grappling, shoving, hiding, disarming, and improvised actions in combat.

And use more complicated maps where there are things like portcullises to drop and doors to lock or smash open.

[Kyutaru]

Or introduce the fighter to the rules for grappling, shoving, hiding, disarming, and improvised actions in combat.

And use more complicated maps where there are things like portcullises to drop and doors to lock or smash open.

This is what I was getting at on page 1. Fighters have lots of combat tricks they tend to be good at. Anyone who has played Knights of the Chalice should be familiar with how potent grappling is in D&D. There are many monster types that your fighter is better off throwing away his sword and going full MMA on the target.

[AdAstra]

Not that I have a solution, but another perspective might open up a new avenue to find one. Maybe it's not the damage that is causing the problem but that the hexblade gets to do more things. The fighter attacks doing damage. The hexblade Curses then attacks. Next round the hexblade Hexes then attacks. Next round hexblade attacks then as a bonus gets another attack. Hexblade also has a +1 magic weapon as a class feature. Every round the hexblade is pushing a button to activate something cool and still gets to attack. The hexblade gets more fun doing stuff. The fighter needs more buttons to push.

I’m not sure it’s quite that. After all, this is a Rune Knight. At least the first two rounds should have them giving themselves bonus action buffs (Giant Might and at least one Rune, if not more)

A magic weapon of some sort is probably warranted if one is not already available. A giant-forged Flame Tongue or Frost Brand as suggested earlier are both good and thematic options.

[MrStabby]

Or introduce the fighter to the rules for grappling, shoving, hiding, disarming, and improvised actions in combat.

And use more complicated maps where there are things like portcullises to drop and doors to lock or smash open.
I think And is better than Or here.

Allowing the fighter to grapple or shove does not give them more things they do (as it instead replaces an attack), it just broadens their menu from which they pull (which is still good).

And smashing down doors and dropping gates? Ok, that's great and all but if the problem is combat, then there needs to be a need to get it open quickly in combat and to not step on toes of other characters in doing so. Making this not too contrived can be a challenge if you have these as repeated elements in multiple dungeons.

[DevilMcam]

You Could Create situations where the fighter's runes matter a lot.
If the warlock spellist is redundant with those choices, then Talking with the players about spotlight an stuff might be necessary.

However if the hexblade went for damage optimisation when the fighter did not, it is to be expected that the hexblade does more damage.

Runeknight is also not a subclass that is Damage Oriented, aside from the 2/Day Giant might (and Giant mights is even more awesome as a control/grappling tool). but has a fair share of control options and defensive boosts to use.
You may want to look at this with your player. If she really want to do damage then you can ret-con the last 1 or 2 ASI so she can take damage feats, or let her redo the character.