Pathfinder wolf shaman

[mehs]

Im going to be playing a wolf shaman. Their wild shape functions better for canine forms and worse for non canine forms. Can assorted peeps send me a list of canine monsters that are applicable targets?

[legomaster00156]

Sure thing. (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/canines/)

[mehs]

What about Blink dogs and goblin dogs and the assorted magical wolfs and foxes?

[Psyren]

What about Blink dogs and goblin dogs and the assorted magical wolfs and foxes?

Goblin dogs are allowed, but for the rest - magical beasts are ineligible for wild shape.

I'm not sure there's much past the Dire Wolf that would make this a good idea.

[mehs]

The wild shape functions as the beast shape line of spells, which do allow you to turn into a magical beast at 3 and up. There isn't much point, as the list of abilities you get is limited, but it should be possible i thought?

[Psyren]

The wild shape functions as the beast shape line of spells, which do allow you to turn into a magical beast at 3 and up. There isn't much point, as the list of abilities you get is limited, but it should be possible i thought?

Not quite - Wild Shape tells you what you can turn into (first only animals, then elementals and finally plants.) It tells you what spells to reference for the specific rules when taking these shapes, but the forms come first, and magical beasts are not on the list.

[mehs]

That just seems wrong. Why the hell would it be that?

[Kurald Galain]

That just seems wrong. Why the hell would it be that?

2E and 3E druids also shift into regular animals only. At least the PF druid can shift into plants 4 levels earlier, huge animals 7 levels earlier, and elementals 10 levels earlier.

[Psyren]

That just seems wrong. Why the hell would it be that?

Here's the exact wording - form comes first, then the spell you reference for crunch, every time.


At 4th level, a druid gains the ability to turn herself into any small or Medium animal and back again once per day.Her options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type. This ability functions like the beast shape I spell, except as noted here.
...
At 6th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Large or Tiny animal or a Small elemental. When taking the form of an animal, a druid’s wild shape now functions as beast shape II. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape functions as elemental body I.

At 8th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Huge or Diminutive animal, a Medium elemental, or a Small or Medium plant creature. When taking the form of animals, a druid’s wild shape now functions as beast shape III. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape now functions as elemental body II. When taking the form of a plant creature, the druid’s wild shape functions as plant shape I.

At 10th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Large elemental or a Large plant creature. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape now functions as elemental body III. When taking the form of a plant, the druid’s wild shape now functions as plant shape II.

At 12th level, a druid can use wild shape to change into a Huge elemental or a Huge plant creature. When taking the form of an elemental, the druid’s wild shape now functions as elemental body IV. When taking the form of a plant, the druid’s wild shape now functions as plant shape III.

If it merely said "you can use Beast Shape III/IV as a spell-like ability" or something similar, then you would get the Magical Beast options. But it doesn't say that - it says "when taking the form of animals." No provision is given for MB forms.

[mehs]

So druids
have no access to polymorph buffs normally
have no feats which expand the list
have a more restricted list than the spells would normally provide
cant use the vast majority of abilities provided by the spell, due to all targets being non magical.
dont get access to beast shape 4 or magical beast shape

[legomaster00156]

That is entirely correct.

[mehs]

So other than being able to shapeshift for longer durations, they are directly worst shapeshifters than wizards. If a wizard just gets a ring on continuation, they are better in pretty much every way

[Psyren]

So other than being able to shapeshift for longer durations, they are directly worst shapeshifters than wizards. If a wizard just gets a ring on continuation, they are better in pretty much every way

Uh no - putting aside that most polymorph spells (including the whole beast shape line) don't actually work with that ring, this is nonsense. Wild Shape can't be dispelled, doesn't provoke or have components, lasts all day natively, you can cast spells while shapeshifted in every single form as early as level 5, and has gotten tons of item/feat/spell/archetype support over the years. Do arcane casters have more shapeshifting options, yes, but in practical terms Wild Shape is one of the most powerful non-spellcasting class features in the game.

[Ramza00]

Timber Wolf Pathfinder
Winter Wolf Pathfinder
Legendary Wolf (3.5)
Abyssal Wolf Pathfinder

[Kurald Galain]

So other than being able to shapeshift for longer durations, they are directly worst shapeshifters than wizards. If a wizard just gets a ring on continuation, they are better in pretty much every way
"Just" get a ring of continuation? Have you seen how friggin' expensive those are? You realistically can't afford that before level 14.

Druid has more BAB, hit points, and saves than wizard; plus Natural Spell; plus a free flanking buddy. No, wizards aren't the best shapeshifters here (and there are more contenders than these two classes, anyway).

[Psyren]

Timber Wolf Pathfinder
Winter Wolf Pathfinder
Legendary Wolf (3.5)
Abyssal Wolf Pathfinder

Sadly:

No improvement over PF wolf
Magical Beast
No improvement over PF wolf
Magical Beast

[mehs]

Druids can combat better, but wizards have much, much more versatility. Name of the game as a whole might as well be 'whi has more versatility?'.

[Psyren]

Druids can combat better, but wizards have much, much more versatility. Name of the game as a whole might as well be 'whi has more versatility?'.

And nothing beats Pun-Pun, so what's your point? Druids are still T1 in PF.

[Kurald Galain]

Druids can combat better, but wizards have much, much more versatility. Name of the game as a whole might as well be 'whi has more versatility?'.

Right. This is why no sane player, throughout the history of both 3E and PF, has ever played any character other than a wizard.

...oh, wait :smallamused:

[Ramza00]

Sadly:

No improvement over PF wolf
Magical Beast
No improvement over PF wolf
Magical Beast

Honestly I think if you are making a shaman, the DM should allow you to pick the feats for your specialized animal for all 9 SNA / CR ranges. Furthermore it makes sense to allow advancement options where you can add HD to the animals much like you could do in 3.5 with improving monsters.

Yes I know this is house rules, but that is just how I feel about it. :smallsigh:

[Kurald Galain]

Furthermore it makes sense to allow advancement options where you can add HD to the animals much like you could do in 3.5 with improving monsters.
Yes, the shamen explicitly get that ability.

[Ramza00]

Yes, the shamen explicitly get that ability.

Maybe I am wrong, but if I recall you can add the Young Template (SNA -1), the advanced (SNA +1), the giant template (SNA +1), or both advanced plus giant (SNA +2.)

I am talking about adding 6 HD to the later SNA, or 3 HD to the earlier SNA.

[Psyren]

Honestly I think if you are making a shaman, the DM should allow you to pick the feats for your specialized animal for all 9 SNA / CR ranges. Furthermore it makes sense to allow advancement options where you can add HD to the animals much like you could do in 3.5 with improving monsters.

Yes I know this is house rules, but that is just how I feel about it. :smallsigh:

Wait, I'm confused - are you talking about wild shape, or SNA?

[Ramza00]

Wait, I'm confused - are you talking about wild shape, or SNA?

Summon Nature Ally not Wild Shape.

[mehs]

wolf shaman is a druid archetype. Polymorph in pathfinder also only really cares about the size, creature type, and special abilities of the creature in question, not the hd.